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[ampere]

Timewalking is indeed super fun. I wouldn't mind seeing it extended to raids either although I imagine that's a way off yet.

Mythic Dungeons are also good, although it looks like they're being replaced by that Greater Rift-esque system in Legion? If it keeps dungeons relevant through the expansion that'd be nice, especially if the loot stacks up against raiding.

Supposedly the idea behind the greater rift style dungeons is that you can get 1 really good piece of loot per week depending on how high you can get. If you get the best reward possible it should be Mythic ilevel. I think just clearing a dungeon gives loot too, but not as high ilevel.

Same idea with PvP, if you are good at rated PvP you can get gear that stacks up against raid gear, but no trinkets or set bonuses from PvP gear (that's all basically built into the PvP talent system)

 

[Ostinatto]

I don't play the game since April 2015.

Any significant change since then?

wow folder is 35GB still?

 

[Tenebrous]

If you've played a month of WoD, then you've played it all.

 

[Ostinatto]

Actually, I just want to do some bgs and run old raids

 

[Milennia]

Triple gold cap in 3 weeks from meese, holy hell.

 

[Milennia]

If you've played a month of WoD, then you've played it all.

Unless said month included all current mythic raid content you most certainly haven't experienced it all.

This expansion had some of the best in years, even margoks slog was better than most offered in the previous expansion barring the second tier.


Speaking from a progress raiders standpoint.

 

[Ostinatto]

Triple gold cap in 3 weeks from meese, holy hell.

Gold cap, what are you talking about?

 

[ampere]

Triple gold cap in 3 weeks from meese, holy hell.

You individually have made that much from it, or your group overall? At what, 50k per buyer?

 

[Tenebrous]

Unless said month included all current mythic raid content you most certainly haven't experienced it all.

This expansion had some of the best in years, even margoks slog was better than most offered in the previous expansion barring the second tier.


Speaking from a progress raiders standpoint.

Same content on four difficulties. Thrilling stuff right there - I'd resubscribe straight away.

Retro raiding & BGs are still the same, so if that's all you want to do, then by all means go for it.

 

[ZenaxPure]

Timewalking is indeed super fun. I wouldn't mind seeing it extended to raids either although I imagine that's a way off yet.

Mythic Dungeons are also good, although it looks like they're being replaced by that Greater Rift-esque system in Legion? If it keeps dungeons relevant through the expansion that'd be nice, especially if the loot stacks up against raiding.

I'm curious how they would handle timewalking raids, the dungeons are mostly a preservation thing and are meant to be puggable so I would expect raids to be the same way (which I'd be fine with). Though to be honest right now I'm just wanting them to expand on dungeons a bit more, would like to see a vanilla and MoP event show up with an appropriate vendor full of cool related stuff.

As for the new challenge modes in Legion since it will keep scaling in difficulty it will be able to still be challenging and rewarding by the end of that expansion. Also the mutator-like system they are going to be using will keep it more interesting than just running the same dungeon each week.

Same content on four difficulties. Thrilling stuff right there - I'd resubscribe straight away.

You know, except for the fact that he said mythic specifically and mythic raid bosses typically have so many mechanic changes that they don't even feel like the same fight anymore.

But sure, let's pretend that LFR and Mythic Archimonde are the same experience.

 

[Tenebrous]

I know, but I want to

Spoiler

argue

debate this again. Does anyone actually like the current system more than the Vanilla/TBC/Ulduar systems? I don't understand how anyone could... It goes against everything I want from an MMO.

 

[Milennia]

Same content on four difficulties. Thrilling stuff right there - I'd resubscribe straight away.

Retro raiding & BGs are still the same, so if that's all you want to do, then by all means go for it.

Same content? What?

Mythic Archimonde and every single encounter in the second half of the instance and first half for that matter is nearly a completely separate experience on mythic... Assuming you aren't stomping through it which you wouldn't be considering you would have been playing for a month.

We carry 3 people each week through the entire instance and that increases our kill times, still faster than most but still manages to be a completely different experience that a lesser guild would experience due to the kill times.

 

[Milennia]

You individually have made that much from it, or your group overall? At what, 50k per buyer?

I have myself, last night alone we went all day and most of the night and made 15 mil as a group, we sell at 35k each sometimes more and we all bring our own buyers so we get all the gold.

15 Carry's and 15 carriers

 

[Tenebrous]

You progress through Tier 4 content, and you progress to Tier 5 - Two raids with wildly different environments, loot aesthetics, bosses, lore. Then you do the same to tier 6, and the same happens again... Different loot, wildly different locales, bosses, lore.

You progress from heroic to mythic, you get the same environment, loot (but it's a diff colour - Woo!), bosses, and lore. "Completely seperate experience" is pushing it a bit, in my opinion.

Then again, I still consider WoW (& sluggish hotkey MMOs in general) to be an easy game mechanically. Nailing a mythic kill isn't impressive to me, but what is impressive is a large pool of content. which is why WoD is the worst expansion by far.

 

[Milennia]

You progress through Tier 4 content, and you progress to Tier 5 - Two raids with wildly different environments, loot aesthetics, bosses, lore. Then you do the same to tier 6, and the same happens again... Different loot, wildly different locales, bosses, lore.

You progress from heroic to mythic, you get the same environment, loot (but it's a diff colour - Woo!), bosses, and lore. "Completely seperate experience" is pushing it a bit, in my opinion.

Then again, I still consider WoW (& sluggish hotkey MMOs in general) to be an easy game mechanically. Nailing a mythic kill isn't impressive to me, but what is impressive is a large pool of content. which is why WoD is the worst expansion by far.

That's all well and fine for you but mechanics vastly change these encounters which is something it seems you do not grasp.

I can list examples if that's what you're looking for on how much Archimonde ALONE changes.
I have never seen anyone complain about doing raiding in the same environment for a tier since that is how this game has always been, except now he bosses are infinitely more complex on their higher difficulties barring exceptions like firefighter.

Mythic gear is insanely better than heroic gear as well by the way, the main stat gains are massive, but that would be obvious.

As a mythic raider I have literally had 0 reason to enter lfr and have only done 1 lockout of normal when I needed to at the start of the expac for tier fill ins, heroic and mythic are the only tiers of content that have been relevant to me and that is just fine.

 

[Tenebrous]

That's all well and fine for you but mechanics vastly change these encounters which is something it seems you do not grasp.

I can list examples if that's what you're looking for on how much Archimonde ALONE changes.
I have never seen anyone complain about doing raiding in the same environment for a tier since that is how this game has always been, except now he bosses are infinitely more complex on their higher difficulties barring exceptions like firefighter.

I do grasp it. It's just like upping the difficulty on any well designed CRPG - More stuff happens, and that's all well and fine for a single player game, but if I'm struggling to motivate myself to beat a great single player game again, then fuck am I going to be able to do it for an MMO.

Except it hasn't always been like that? Bosses are more mechanically challenging right now, there's no doubt about that, but wouldn't a TBC style progression system with 2015 mechanics be a better experience than Warlords?

If that poster does want to come back for cutting edge raiding in any way, then good for them.

 

[ampere]

I have myself, last night alone we went all day and most of the night and made 15 mil as a group, we sell at 35k each sometimes more and we all bring our own buyers so we get all the gold.

15 Carry's and 15 carriers

Damn, son.

We made some decent gold selling Garrosh Heroic carries in MoP, might have to get on this Archimonde train. Only problem is our realm pop is kinda low, so we'd have to gather buyers on different realms, and thus have alts to get gold from them

 

[Lomax]

I do grasp it. It's just like upping the difficulty on any well designed CRPG - More stuff happens, and that's all well and fine for a single player game, but if I'm struggling to motivate myself to beat a great single player game again, then fuck am I going to be able to do it for an MMO.

Except it hasn't always been like that? Bosses are more mechanically challenging right now, there's no doubt about that, but wouldn't a TBC style progression system with 2015 mechanics be a better experience than Warlords?

If that poster does want to come back for cutting edge raiding in any way, then good for them.

I'm not gonna argue the quality of WoD, even as a non-raider the expansion just seems rife with poor design decisions. But the system of challenge seems perfect to me. There's hard content for those that want it, with appropriate rewards, and also an accessible version for those that can't do that. Blizzard isn't going to create full raids for the 1% any more, nor should they.

The only thing I think BC did that they should bring back is creating later tier content during the expansion pre-release development phase. I think that would create a better raid release flow and prevent the potential problem of only having one content patch.

Quite frankly, motivation struggles were just as real during Wrath and bc. If anything, I bet churn was higher, but it was just hidden by the constant influx of new players.

 

[Milennia]

I do grasp it. It's just like upping the difficulty on any well designed CRPG - More stuff happens, and that's all well and fine for a single player game, but if I'm struggling to motivate myself to beat a great single player game again, then fuck am I going to be able to do it for an MMO.

Except it hasn't always been like that? Bosses are more mechanically challenging right now, there's no doubt about that, but wouldn't a TBC style progression system with 2015 mechanics be a better experience than Warlords?

If that poster does want to come back for cutting edge raiding in any way, then good for them.

Oh so this is a personal motivation thing, in which case none of this is relevant.
The motivation is getting better loot, achievements, titles and mounts and if that isn't enough than that makes sense that the content isn't for you, which is fine Indeed.

Bc progression in my opinion is god awful and the whole thing was a worthless grind but that opinion is differed among people even I myself play with so its up in the air.
Balance killed that expansion for me.

I personally enjoy things raiding wise now and ESPECIALLY next expansion and how they are expanding on it by adding in dungeon progression via infinite challenge modes hat can yield mythic level loot on high levels of play, or floors? I guess they would resemble floors.

 

[Milennia]

Damn, son.

We made some decent gold selling Garrosh Heroic carries in MoP, might have to get on this Archimonde train. Only problem is our realm pop is kinda low, so we'd have to gather buyers on different realms, and thus have alts to get gold from them

Some of us dabble on other servers simply because we have to as well lol
Most of us are on stormrage so the realm pop isn't the issue but since mounts are account wide and you only need 1 per, it is actually drying up.


Really hard to avoid, especially with multiple groups selling on the server.

The moose train is well worth it though I would recommend the bring your own buyer deal as well, just better for everyone.

We average about 3 runs an hour which on low average is about 105k but it fluctuates as i mentioned.

so if you really wanted to hunker down you can pull off the cap in a day but its rare that you can sustain the buyers, especially on a single realm.

finding them at 3 am is the worst as well lol, but the laughs at that hour when everyone is delirious and rich after the long day is well worth.

 

[ZenaxPure]

Except it hasn't always been like that? Bosses are more mechanically challenging right now, there's no doubt about that, but wouldn't a TBC style progression system with 2015 mechanics be a better experience than Warlords?

No it would be shit.

Milennia hit on it a little bit, but the thing you and basically everyone complaining about multiple difficulties fail to understand is that virtually no one is doing the same content 4 times. The different raid difficulties don't exist so you can start with 1 and work your way through all of them, they exist so you can find the one that fits your playstyle and stick with it.

And please don't try to act like you "get it", this started when you said that people are doing the same content 4 times. You literally don't understand jack shit.

Also please stop talking about how easy mythic raiding content is because of your horrible understanding of hotkey combat or whatever. The way you talk about it makes it pretty obvious you probably aren't a very good player anyway, can't imagine you'd last long in an actual mythic raiding guild.

 

[Tenebrous]

Oh so this is a personal motivation thing, in which case none of this is relevant.
The motivation is getting better loot, achievements, titles and mounts and if that isn't enough than that makes sense that the content isn't for you, which is fine Indeed.

Bc progression in my opinion is god awful and the whole thing was a worthless grind but that opinion is differed among people even I myself play with so its up in the air.
Balance killed that expansion for me.

I personally enjoy things raiding wise now and ESPECIALLY next expansion and how they are expanding on it by adding in dungeon progression via infinite challenge modes hat can yield mythic level loot on high levels of play, or floors? I guess they would resemble floors.

I don't care about loot, achievements, or titles. I PvE'd back then because I wanted to experience as much content as possible, and since Wrath, I've never understood loot at all... It's a tool, so why do people care so much? Nothing has been iconic gearwise since Glaives, in my opinion.

Balance back then was a bit wonky (prot Paladin gods in Hyjal were damn annoying to me), but that's not what I'm talking about.

TBC had 7 meaningful raids (Kara/ZA/SSC/TK/MH/BT/SSC), while WoD has 3 (HM/BRF/HFC). What I'm suggesting is, wouldn't it be better to have 7 raids of advancing difficulty than to have 3 raids with multiple difficulties?

No it would be shit.

Milennia hit on it a little bit, but the thing you and basically everyone complaining about multiple difficulties fail to understand is that virtually no one is doing the same content 4 times. The different raid difficulties don't exist so you can start with 1 and work your way through all of them, they exist so you can find the one that fits your playstyle and stick with it.

And please don't try to act like you "get it", this started when you said that people are doing the same content 4 times. You literally don't understand jack shit.

Also please stop talking about how easy mythic raiding content is because of your horrible understanding of hotkey combat or whatever. The way you talk about it makes it pretty obvious you probably aren't a very good player anyway, can't imagine you'd last long in an actual mythic raiding guild.

Jesus, calm down, haha.

I guess my motivations for raiding are just different than yours, but hey, I bet I'd get from my current level of being an apathetic casual (I was hardcore back in the day, but the game just isn't worth my effort now) to a decent mythic raider faster than most.

 

[Lomax]

I don't care about loot, achievements, or titles. I PvE'd back then because I wanted to experience as much content as possible, and since Wrath, I've never understood loot at all... It's a tool, so why do people care so much? Nothing has been iconic gearwise since Glaives, in my opinion.

Balance back then was a bit wonky (prot Paladin gods in Hyjal were damn annoying to me), but that's not what I'm talking about.

TBC had 7 meaningful raids (Kara/ZA/SSC/TK/MH/BT/SSC), while WoD has 3 (HM/BRF/HFC). What I'm suggesting is, wouldn't it be better to have 7 raids of advancing difficulty than to have 3 raids with multiple difficulties?

If you don't understand loot you are playing the wrong genre and definitely have no concept of what motivates the vast majority of people to play this game.

Edit: and sure, more would be better. No one argues that in a vacuum, that's not the point at all.

Double edit: if anything, you should love the current system because you get to see everything, which I guarantee you didn't during vanilla or bc. Then quit and go play something else until the next expansion.

 

[Tenebrous]

If you don't understand loot you are playing the wrong genre and definitely have no concept of what motivates the vast majority of people to play this game.

Edit: and sure, more would be better. No one argues that in a vacuum, that's not the point at all.

Nah, I understand it all too well. I've seen guilds disband because of loot whoring, fixed rolls, DKP nonsense & loot council rulings. I'm just saying that, from a personal standpoint, if my gear gets the job done, that's enough for me... I don't understand the drama behind it at times, that's all.

Double edit: if anything, you should love the current system because you get to see everything, which I guarantee you didn't during vanilla or bc. Then quit and go play something else until the next expansion.

I raided every raid in TBC upto SWP. Didn't start Vanilla early enough to do the same (and even if I did, I wouldn't have had the time to get to Naxx).

I have been considering taking a break, honestly. It's just that, with WoW tokens being so cheap, it's hard to not jump on and do the odd little bit here, little bit there... Familiarity is breeding contempt, I think.

 

[Milennia]

I don't care about loot, achievements, or titles. I PvE'd back then because I wanted to experience as much content as possible, and since Wrath, I've never understood loot at all... It's a tool, so why do people care so much? Nothing has been iconic gearwise since Glaives, in my opinion.

Balance back then was a bit wonky (prot Paladin gods in Hyjal were damn annoying to me), but that's not what I'm talking about.

TBC had 7 meaningful raids (Kara/ZA/SSC/TK/MH/BT/SSC), while WoD has 3 (HM/BRF/HFC). What I'm suggesting is, wouldn't it be better to have 7 raids of advancing difficulty than to have 3 raids with multiple difficulties?



Jesus, calm down, haha.

I guess my motivations for raiding are just different than yours, but hey, I bet I'd get from my current level of being an apathetic casual (I was hardcore back in the day, but the game just isn't worth my effort now) to a decent mythic raider faster than most.

Most of that content was meaningless quite fast but yes having more variety is always a wonderful thing to strive for.

I just don't see it ever happening again since they feel like their time is better allocated on other aspects of the game as well as encounters themselves these days, which i enjoy just as well since i dabble in the other aspects of the game in my spare time.

but yes i see where you are coming from.

different strokes is what it boils down to but the game is and always has been heavily loot centric in all aspects (next expac pvp is actually no longer loot centric, which is pretty nice).


and i love me some titles-achievements-mounts


i have been playing the game at a decent raiding level for some time and everything i have said is coming from that perspective.

 

[Tenebrous]

I still like my mounts! Motivation for that has died a bit, though... The 300 mount reward is so shit I'm not even considering it.

I'm not looking to start a TBC/Wrath vs WoD contest, because it's really about as one-sided as MayPac, but where is the proof that their time is better allocated nowadays? WoD has been one of the most content-lite expansions in MMO history.

 

[Milennia]

I still like my mounts! Motivation for that has died a bit, though... The 300 mount reward is so shit I'm not even considering it.

I'm not looking to start a TBC/Wrath vs WoD contest, because it's really about as one-sided as MayPac, but where is the proof that their time is better allocated nowadays? WoD has been one of the most content-lite expansions in MMO history.

i didnt say their time is better allocated, i just said they choose to allocate their time differently now, whether that be for the better or worse.


most of their time had been on legion as of mid dev cycle afaik this go around.
i will never argue wod's total worth and i agree with the masses, but i will argue its raiding content and structure.


(which is being improved upon more in the coming expansion)

 

[Tenebrous]

Fuck knows what they're allocating it to... Hearthstone, probably.

 

[hellmonkey]

Hey all, got a question for you. I still have a lv 100 token from the Legion pre-order and decided I want a toon that can solo old content quickly. So decent AOE and some sort of speed boost would be great, but I don't know the classes too well since I only really got into the game late last year. What's a good quick solo class for running those old dungeons & raids?

Already have warlock btw.

I would recommend any pet class. There are some bosses and mechanics that just flat out suck unless you have a pet. Ive had the easier time by far with my lock. I'm bounce between destroy and demo cause I like them both.

 

[Lomax]

I don't think anyone would argue that WoD had enough raid tiers, especially given the long wait still to come for Legion. But yes, staggered difficulties compared to unreachable content is much better. If you're a content tourist, great, go run stuff with no drama. If you want a challenge it's there, with rewards to match.

Fuck knows what they're allocating it to... Hearthstone, probably.

The running joke in one of my guilds is that the whole expansion was made by interns. Because they just made silly mistakes and design choices almost across the board that don't indicate having over a decade of design experience.

 

[Milennia]

I'm usually a huge debbie downer about new expansions but i really do for the first time have high hopes for what comes next after what we have seen, very little doubt in my mind as of now, even after playing alpha content over and over again.

 

[ZenaxPure]

as well as encounters themselves these days

This is honestly where all this falls apart for me. Like the entire reason they were able to stuff so many bosses into the game back in Vanilla and TBC (and some early Wrath stuff to a degree) is because most of those bosses were just tank and spank with 1 incredibly simple mechanic. They clearly spent less time developing each boss compared to what they do now - and that is BEFORE factoring in that they are designing 1 boss for 4 different difficulties.

And is that a better system? All I can say is that personally no, I'm glad it's gone. I was a very hardcore raider in vanilla and TBC (6 days a week in vanilla with a longer Sunday raid, we scaled it to 5 at the end of Naxx for TBC) and I got very tired of that model. There was just nothing fun about clearing the 3 easy/boring bosses in TK so you could fight the 1 actual fun and challenging boss. Hyjal took it to the upper limit of stupidity by having really awful trash in-between those easy/boring 4 bosses before you could do the one okay fight in there (though Hyjal Archimonde wasn't really all that interesting anyway).

I'm glad they decided to step away from that as I do enjoy quality over quantity. I vastly enjoyed, say, T12 more than I enjoyed T5. Yeah there was only 7 bosses but even the easiest boss in T12 (probably Shannox I guess) was way more fun than anything in SSC/TK outside of Vashj and Kael.

 

[Tenebrous]

That's more than 4 years worth of learning & improvements, though. I don't think Firelands in 2011 was any more impressive than SSC & TK in 2007, or Highmaul in 2014, etc. As someone who also prefers quality over quantity, I ask myself... Why not both? Biggest WoW team ever, least amount of content ever.

My dream?

TBC level of raid variety.
Ulduar type difficulty challenges.
Linear Classic/TBC progression.
Modern mechanics.

I'm usually a huge debbie downer about new expansions but i really do for the first time have high hopes for what comes next after what we have seen, very little doubt in my mind as of now, even after playing alpha content over and over again.

I'm incredibly down on Legion as it stands.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

I'm incredibly down on Legion as it stands.

At this point every player should seperate how good they want Legion to be, and how good it probably will be.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Highmaul was some of the worst environment art of our time.

 

[Tenebrous]

T11 will forever be the best debut tier of any expansion.

 

[ampere]

At this point every player should seperate how good they want Legion to be, and how good it probably will be.

I expect great raids and a great leveling experience, they always deliver there. But will there be good world content, will dungeons stay relevant, will pvp be great?

Yea, remains to be seen.

Highmaul was some of the worst environment art of our time.

But Tectus had some of the funniest dialog since Jaraxxus. So it was still sort of a win

 

[jaundicejuice]

lvl 80 Pit of Saron is the hardest dungeon content I've played through yet, and it's mostly the first boss. That dungeon gets easier the deeper you get.

 

[Granadier]

edit: edited

 

[Ostinatto]

So, pvp gear level up in arenas? how is the deal ?

 

[fierrotlepou]

Any fun NeoGAF guilds in EU? Just a normal guild, not too serious?

 

[Milennia]

T11 will forever be the best debut tier of any expansion.

I agree with this but its was a hell of a tier for heroic raiders that care about their placement.


T11 was nothing but a mad dash from the start to finish and burned out TONS of people going for it, was pure hell.

and there were only 3 good bosses, so there's that.

 

[Dog Problems]

I have myself, last night alone we went all day and most of the night and made 15 mil as a group, we sell at 35k each sometimes more and we all bring our own buyers so we get all the gold.

15 Carry's and 15 carriers

I purchased a carry for the moose mount last night and think I saw you. Night Elf mage with the same name but two L's?

 

[Milennia]

I purchased a carry for the moose mount last night and think I saw you. Night Elf mage with the same name but two L's?

that was me but i was using a toy to become a night elf =p

 

[Nere]

Highmaul was some of the worst environment art of our time.

I actually really like Highmaul. What was wrong with the enviroment art? It looked like an ancient city and looked really imposing from outside. Also the bosses were super fun, they started out simple and ramped up the difficulty. Highmaul is on of the better raids of WoW in my opinion.

 

[Data West]

BRF is tied with ToT as my favorite raid of all time and I think Hanz and Fronz is my favorite fight of all time.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Yeah, BRF had great fights design.

H&F and Operator were my favorites.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I actually really like Highmaul. What was wrong with the enviroment art? It looked like an ancient city and looked really imposing from outside. Also the bosses were super fun, they started out simple and ramped up the difficulty. Highmaul is on of the better raids of WoW in my opinion.

It's very blah to me compared to most other WoW raids. Didn't like the look at all. All just like grey walls and floor.

 

[CelticKnight]

Blazing Drake dropped earlier for me on 10N so I don't need to run Dragon Soul anymore.

No more DBM going "Beware! Beware! Be... Be... Beware!"

 

[ampere]

lvl 80 Pit of Saron is the hardest dungeon content I've played through yet, and it's mostly the first boss. That dungeon gets easier the deeper you get.

Garfrost is a bit tricky if people don't drop their stacks. Back when that was current content there was no CD on healer dispels

So, pvp gear level up in arenas? how is the deal ?

Yes. In Arenas and Battlegrounds and anytime you engage in world PvP it scales up to the PvP level specified on the tooltip