Even with artifacts, you don't get that until lvl100+. That's a really long time to get a little more spells on your rotation.
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World of Warcraft |OT7| Feel the hatred of 10,000 Murlocs
- Thread starter ampere
- Start date
Even with artifacts, you don't get that until lvl100+. That's a really long time to get a little more spells on your rotation.
françois;203799453 said:
Looks like I'm just unlucky then. Oh well!
So I've come into some free time recently. Rather not get into the details, but I'll probably try to 'seriously' play WoW again until I can find something else in my personal life. And I don't know how long that will take.
I did the Unholy DK raiding for a while, but I want to take a ranged and start seriously raiding into Mythic once I get the gear for it. I'm looking at Balance Druid, Elemental Shaman, Hunter, Shadow Priest, and a Warlock. I can't do Arcane Mage, I'll hate myself too much. I was leaning heavily towards Hunter, but I know they've got the popularity issue. Is it still worth it to 'stack' Hunters? I know in BRF they were real strong and when I was doing HFC, they were real strong, but we only ever had 1 or 2 at most.
The issue with Elemental, Balance, and Shadow are that I really, really don't want to offspec heal. And I'm still a little cloudy on how Artifact Power will work in Legion. I doubt it will fully prevent that if I get into a Mythic guild.
I did the Unholy DK raiding for a while, but I want to take a ranged and start seriously raiding into Mythic once I get the gear for it. I'm looking at Balance Druid, Elemental Shaman, Hunter, Shadow Priest, and a Warlock. I can't do Arcane Mage, I'll hate myself too much. I was leaning heavily towards Hunter, but I know they've got the popularity issue. Is it still worth it to 'stack' Hunters? I know in BRF they were real strong and when I was doing HFC, they were real strong, but we only ever had 1 or 2 at most.
The issue with Elemental, Balance, and Shadow are that I really, really don't want to offspec heal. And I'm still a little cloudy on how Artifact Power will work in Legion. I doubt it will fully prevent that if I get into a Mythic guild.
Novel Mike
Member
There are a few mythic fights where Hunters are super helpful but its not as important as you might think for ranged, most can do the mechanics just some easier strats available if you have certain classes.
Coming from someone who has been doing Mythic-level raiding for quite awhile on a 2-night basis, we definitely require off-spec flexibility and sometimes due to nights with a tight roster it's imperative to progress. If someone applies and says "I don't play offspecs" and they aren't a tank or a healer when we're looking for core tanks/healers, they basically have 0 chance to be accepted.
So I'd say if you don't want pressure to off-spec heal at all, pure dps like Hunter/Mage/Lock are going to be good options in that regard.
Dog Problems
Banned
I played through the monk brewmaster artifact acquisition and enjoyed it but I hate how the staff displays.
http://i.imgur.com/380ArIf.jpg
The pieces of fabric that hold the containers of brew have an odd bend to them and it causes the containers to not hang properly. Hopefully this is fixed by actual release otherwise, as petty as it sounds, it would prevent me from playing the spec.
I thought about posting about this on the official feedback forum but I don't know if it'll actually get looked at.
http://i.imgur.com/380ArIf.jpg
The pieces of fabric that hold the containers of brew have an odd bend to them and it causes the containers to not hang properly. Hopefully this is fixed by actual release otherwise, as petty as it sounds, it would prevent me from playing the spec.
I thought about posting about this on the official feedback forum but I don't know if it'll actually get looked at.
The spec is pretty unfun now anyway :'(
Yeah I see what they were going for with the staff animation, but it's a clipping+rag doll mess right now. No idea if they will spend much time on it, but I'd expect at least minor improvements before it goes live
Which tank spec is fun?
I know Preach made a video putting druids & DKs near the top of his fun-list, but someone told me they've changed druids just a few days ago?
Prot Warrior is disappointing. Focused rage is nowhere near as interesting as heroic strike, although it's talented synergy with ignore pain is kinda cool... Honestly, I just feel like I'm missing way too many abilities, and the amount of devastate spam (at this point - will improve with haste) is dampening my enjoyment of my favourite class.
A true shame, as WoD tanking feels pretty damn good.
Fair enough. Gotta be honest, I don't keep up with WoW personalities/top players anymore - Only reason I saw that Preach video was because I saw a 30 page thread on MMO champion.
Still, now I'm in the beta, I can't disagree too much with his prot warrior assessment. I'd love to see someone elses thoughts on the class, though.
Still, now I'm in the beta, I can't disagree too much with his prot warrior assessment. I'd love to see someone elses thoughts on the class, though.
That's a bit more reasonable, I suppose.
Well it's worth mentioning cause his video is 40 minutes long and the first 10 minutes is him talking about how he hates Legion tanking in general. His point was mostly just that he preferred blood compared to something like prot paladin which I quote:
"If I was a new player to World of Warcraft and my friend had invited me to play and I landed on a prot paladin, and I got to my boost and did all the usual things you get up to to get a quickly capped character and started playing this and then someone was to tell me this was after a decade of development and growth I would probably tell them Blizzard should stop making video games."
Pretty harsh but it made me laugh when he said it. I feel him though, prot paladin looked really bad for most of alpha gameplay-wise. I think it has gotten some changes since his video but yeah....
Kinda unrelated question, but is there any way to turn on the old health bars & damage figures? Damage figures are especially difficult for me at the moment without an addon to track procs from crits (FR from shield slam crits especially... Can't even see if the fucking thing crits).
Dog Problems
Banned
Windwalker is more fun but I would have probably went with Brewmaster just for the increased survival.
Prot Warrior is IMO by far the most fun tank in Legion, and it's not that great. I generally like Prot Warrior, but the incremental changes they made to it diminished the fun quite a bit
That quote is ether lol
The massive frustration for me lies in the fact that many tanks were in uproar at the start of alpha when Blizzard announced the new direction for tank design, and some of us withheld judgment a bit, but a top Blood DK player (Troxism) laid out pretty precisely what was wrong with the design and Blizzard sorta brushed it off.
Then they didn't even put Brewmasters on the alpha for another 4 months, and the spec had massive changes. Blizzard said there weren't many changes so the spec didn't need as much testing lol. The feedback has been universally negative from the Mythic raiding community and Blizzard is pretty much happy with the design
I don't get it because it doesn't make it easier for less skilled players, it actually places more of a burden on the healers so the metagame will shift a bit to demanding more from healers. There's not really any upside to the changes, it's utterly baffling
Things like zone design, art, toys, mounts, etc seem great and I hear that many dps specs are a ton of fun, it's just really frustrating that they blew it on the tank part.
To me it's not even that tanks aren't the end all be all of keeping themselves alive anymore - I think it's fine to rely on the healers, it's more that the changes just aren't fun.
Tank survivability was out of their hands for most of the life of the game, to be honest, but the rotations were more engaging and threat was even a concern for most of that period. When your rotation is 4 buttons it HAS to be engaging in some other way. Current tanking is (you control whether you live or die, and you can usually put out good dps for most of the tank classes), legion tanking isn't. Active mitigation when it doesn't do anything for you means very little.
For the record, I think Troxism is an idiot and most of his giant post on the subject when they unveiled it was incorrect. His points mostly boiled down to 'tanking can't be fun if you have to rely on healers' which is bullshit, it absolutely can, but you need complexity SOMEWHERE. The skill cap atm is very low, which makes it unrewarding.
Tank survivability was out of their hands for most of the life of the game, to be honest, but the rotations were more engaging and threat was even a concern for most of that period. When your rotation is 4 buttons it HAS to be engaging in some other way. Current tanking is (you control whether you live or die, and you can usually put out good dps for most of the tank classes), legion tanking isn't. Active mitigation when it doesn't do anything for you means very little.
For the record, I think Troxism is an idiot and most of his giant post on the subject when they unveiled it was incorrect. His points mostly boiled down to 'tanking can't be fun if you have to rely on healers' which is bullshit, it absolutely can, but you need complexity SOMEWHERE. The skill cap atm is very low, which makes it unrewarding.
Yeah I think at the end of the day it comes down to decision making. The current AM system is great for that because you are constantly in situations where you have a set amount of resources and you have to choose what best to spend them on to survive, it's satisfying and whenever I am healing I can very easily tell if a tank is good or not. Legion just doesn't seem to have that really.
On the plus side things always change, wouldn't be surprised if tanks were completely reversed in 8.0. In the mean time I've already prepared myself for 2 years of people bitching about how boring tanking is.
Tanks definitely can have a tough job without self sustainability, but I think it's a very hard thing to take away once you've given it out. Like giving cars as an upgrade from horses for a couple years then making people go back to horses. He probably started tanking Cata Blood or MoP and that's all he knows so that perspective makes sense to me. It's been a long time since threat was a thing for tanks, and other than that your job is mostly: communicate, position well, etc.
You're right that the core issue is there has to be some fun and skill based element that has to feel rewarding. It's just that self-sustainability ends up being the easiest way for players to see that accomplished since it's been working well for the past 4 years. I've gotten so used to not caring if I get a bad healer in a pug or knowing if shit hits the fan I can pop a massive Guard, and to have that taken away is frustrating.
If we flipped the clock back to WotLK (when I started tanking) you couldn't self heal much, but you could stack a massive amount of stamina and get pretty high dodge/parry/block and that felt pretty good. Frenzied Regen was pretty beast but a long cooldown. Had to sort of worry about threat too. Game was still so fresh to me back then anyway, it's really hard to keep things in perspective. I couldn't tell you the challenges of high end raid tanking at that time since I was doing 10 man heroics at best
I kinda need to do them. I've nothing to upgrade (both rings are 795), but I only have 350 valor and a few items I could get in the next few weeks. One 8/8 clear would get me enough valor to see out the expansion.
It's exactly this. Like, tanking in BC was actually SIGNIFICANTLY harder and more rewarding than tanking is these days, the thesis that taking away active mitigation makes fun tanking impossible is flawed as fuck, and that's why I disagreed strongly when he posted that - the game was fun to tank in prior to AM, there's no reaosn it can't be again. They can make it fun no matter what the actual result is (You could have 0 control over your survivability and they could still make it fun), the problem is that AM is very simple decisionmaking that has a really noticeable impact. Old tanking was about decisionmaking, largely due to the impact of the tools you had available and threat, now without either they HAVE to find something else. Even if it's just an interesting dps rotation that's honestly ok by me, engaging is engaging, but they're not that.
Edit: I think specifically with DKs they've ruined it with the rune system. I think the rune system changes make sense and work fine for both DPS specs, but reduce the already un-complicated blood setup to virtual braindead levels. I'm not sure how they can fix it wtih their current setup.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743706264?page=4#72
Good news: The cost to change specs is going to be removed
Bad news: changing talents is about to become really annoying (can only change if youre in an area that puts you in a rested state unless a scribe drops a tome for other people to use)
Good news: The cost to change specs is going to be removed
Bad news: changing talents is about to become really annoying (can only change if youre in an area that puts you in a rested state unless a scribe drops a tome for other people to use)
Gold cost going away is a good change. Having to level up a second Artifact is already a big enough barrier to switching specs.
Talent change is beyond dumb though. They basically have to make the scribe item cheap enough for everyone to have one available at all times, at which point it's just a gold sink. Might as well just charge gold for switching talents (or keep using tomes like we are now).
That's way worse than gold requirements for changing specs
That's the dumbest load of shit I've ever heard in my life.
"Sec guys, gotta go Warspear so I can swap talents for Xhul'horac."
One of the posters...
Is this their target audience? Would you want a tank/healer like that in the first place?
That Watcher post is kind of hilarious. It's like how badly can you miss the point. Tome of the Clear Mind for talent swapping is way better than that proposed garbage. Spec swap gold cost wasn't great, but at least it wasn't some arbitrary reagent only crafted by 1 profession
neurosisxeno
Member
Blood DK's have been imba since they were introduced. There's a line between sustainability and bullshit, and from my experience Blood was handily on the bullshit side of that line. While leveling it was literally impossible for my character to die in most instances, and considering the insane number of cooldowns I had access to any attentive player never had to worry while playing. When it comes to dungeons I have regularly witnessed Blood DK's stay alive substantially longer than other tanks after healers start to drop. Their sustainability in its previous states--what most people think made them "fun"--was a problem.
Blood does a lot of self healing, but you can't do a Mythic raid boss with 0 external healing received unless you significantly outgear it. You still need healers. Brewmasters and Prot Paladins do insane self healing too, it's not just a Blood DK thing.
Even nerfing self-sustainability a bit without shitting on the gameplay would be OK with me, but they overhauled the gameplay and made it pretty bad.
Dog Problems
Banned
Happy about legs finally being show under robes now. Makes me want to roll a worgen cloth class.
They posted expanded explanation and it makes even less sense.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=253031/legion-respec-costs-removed-talent-changing-restricted?refresh
Where are they even going with this? Making you go back to Dalaran between bosses isn't "meaningful" in my book - it's just a pain in the ass.
Except there is no customization and differentiation. They've pretty clearly tried to direct the new talent system in a direction that makes different talents useful in different situations - in which case your talent selections are determined entirely by the encounter if you're trying to play optimally. And the funny thing is that they even failed to do this in most cases - there's generally a "best" talent build and that's what you choose, because you're probably swapping specs between single-target and AOE fights if you have another one available to you!
We could never switch talents freely, at any time, and in combat. Literally no one is asking for that. Why are you even bringing this up?
No! NO! There would be no actual variety! There would be the people who picked the best build and the people who fucked it up for themselves! That's not variety!
Who the fuck cares if people switch talents for trash?! It's fucking trash! And if the dungeon fights are sub-1-minute, it would be faster to just mow the shit down instead of switching talents and rebuffing before the boss anyway! And they're fucking dungeons, not Mythic raids!
People are going to be switching talents before raid bosses unless you make it so prohibitive that switching talents might as well not exist - so why are you just making it a pain in the ass?
http://www.wowhead.com/news=253031/legion-respec-costs-removed-talent-changing-restricted?refresh
Where are they even going with this? Making you go back to Dalaran between bosses isn't "meaningful" in my book - it's just a pain in the ass.
Except there is no customization and differentiation. They've pretty clearly tried to direct the new talent system in a direction that makes different talents useful in different situations - in which case your talent selections are determined entirely by the encounter if you're trying to play optimally. And the funny thing is that they even failed to do this in most cases - there's generally a "best" talent build and that's what you choose, because you're probably swapping specs between single-target and AOE fights if you have another one available to you!
We could never switch talents freely, at any time, and in combat. Literally no one is asking for that. Why are you even bringing this up?
No! NO! There would be no actual variety! There would be the people who picked the best build and the people who fucked it up for themselves! That's not variety!
Who the fuck cares if people switch talents for trash?! It's fucking trash! And if the dungeon fights are sub-1-minute, it would be faster to just mow the shit down instead of switching talents and rebuffing before the boss anyway! And they're fucking dungeons, not Mythic raids!
People are going to be switching talents before raid bosses unless you make it so prohibitive that switching talents might as well not exist - so why are you just making it a pain in the ass?
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Depends on the cost of the scribe tome. An scroll that puts a respec "soulwell" thats raidwide doesnt sound very inconvenient if its relatively cheap. It could work essentially like Tomes right now except that before a boss only one person needs to consume a tome.
Anyway.. got into the beta. Its WoW.
People are still going to pick their talents based on the boss. Blizz pls ._.
You get research books at max level that increase artifact power gain. They don't work on leveling power gain so you don't have to save them for cap.
You get research books at max level that increase artifact power gain. They don't work on leveling power gain so you don't have to save them for cap.
The completely flies in the face of their talent changes in Legion then which have very obvious single target and aoe talents in the same pool.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
But thats the entire point. They're trying to make it a choice, instead of just being able to have the best shit in every situation.
So what, DPS players take single target abilities so they can impress on random heroic bosses, and tanks take AoE abilities so they can keep up on trash?
The current system is much better for choice.
If you're just going to switch with every pull then they might as well just give you all of the talents at once.
But that'd go against Blizzard's policy of giving any class more than 3 buttons to press.
The situation is nowhere near as bad as what Blizzard are making it out to be, but they're making it worse for the sake of making it worse. When I do random heroics, I don't wait for my Dragon Roar CD to finish so I can take Storm Bolt for the boss, and no-one would do that in Legion, either. Can't do that for CMs, and I doubt they'll let you do it in Mythic+ either.
As for doing it in a raid, so what? People swapping out talents before a boss is the least offensive shit imaginable.
JSoup
Banned
Not even the dead know peace from this hell.
Fittingly, the subzone was called Hope's End.
I'd laugh if there were GMs in the beta so I could get out eventually. Oh well, time to make a new character... at some point. Kinda deflated right now.