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[jaundicejuice]

Right, with this I will actually agree.

The solution here isn't to just pull more than the tank is pulling, the solution is to votekick the tank and try to get one that has heirlooms.

But that solution is fucking stupid and toxic, but it's the only one that makes any sense and is fair to everyone, that is how the game is set up. If I went through the trouble of buying heirlooms so I can go faster, do I not also deserve a tank that can go fast as well? This is a two way street here and a lot of people for some reason feel entitled to be carried by heirloom players and have them quietly sit in the back going at the slower pace without complaint.


If you're new and you don't know what is going on, either don't tank/heal or find a guild.

Actually the solution that makes the most sense is not to be a bellend and cooperate with the group you got matched with. If you're causing wipes because you cannot deal with what you pull as a dps, you're not "carrying" anyone. You're the lodestone.

If you can't deal with playing with loom-less players and feel entitled to play with a heirloom'd/enchanted tank, shouldn't you play through dungeons strictly with your guild? If you kick your current tank or healer because they lack heirlooms, you're just spend upwards of fifteen minutes waiting for another one, that, by your logic, you might kick as well because they don't have heirlooms. At this point you could have completed the dungeon with the initial tank or healer in quest greens.

Also if you segregate players it drives up the queue times, which would defeat the purpose you use the dungeon finder for, to level quickly.

 

[Ken]

Is the only significant difference between combat rogue and outlaw the Roll the Bones thing?

 

[Lomax]

Oh look, the patch restarted downloading itself, yet again. Fuck it, you win Blizzard. Not very reassuring though that the battle.net settings clearly don't mean a damn thing.

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Oh look, the patch restarted downloading itself, yet again. Fuck it, you win Blizzard. Not very reassuring though that the battle.net settings clearly don't mean a damn thing.

Either way you're going to have to download it.

Just let it in.

 

[Lomax]

Either way you're going to have to download it.

Just let it in.

The ten minutes it took to download could have happened on patch day, without occupying a huge part of my hard drive for the next week. But it just wasn't worth fighting with any more.

 

[Anoregon]

Is the only significant difference between combat rogue and outlaw the Roll the Bones thing?

I guess that depends on what you consider "significant." I mean, they play similar in that they are non-dagger rogue specs, but the feel is pretty different and the aesthetics are definitely a different direction. The saber slash extra attack/free pistol shot mechanic is definitely a departure from combat, as far as I know (I don't really play rogue so I could be wrong)

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Actually the solution that makes the most sense is not to be a bellend and cooperate with the group you got matched with. If you're causing wipes because you cannot deal with what you pull as a dps, you're not "carrying" anyone. You're the lodestone.

If you can't deal with playing with loom-less players and feel entitled to play with a heirloom'd/enchanted tank, shouldn't you play through dungeons strictly with your guild? If you kick your current tank or healer because they lack heirlooms, you're just spend upwards of fifteen minutes waiting for another one, that, by your logic, you might kick as well because they don't have heirlooms. At this point you could have completed the dungeon with the initial tank or healer in quest greens.

Also if you segregate players it drives up the queue times, which would defeat the purpose you use the dungeon finder for, to level quickly.

Stop focusing on extra pulling and DPS trolling the group, I didn't say that was acceptable behavior ever. That is more worth a votekick than being a loomless tank, we agree there. I said it's a symptom of a bigger problem which is Blizzard forcing veteran players to babysit new players. They do it in LFD, they did it with LFR giving valor in WoD, and they're doing it again in Legion with LFR giving tier/trinkets again.

I help people all the time, of my own accordance, of my own free will. Forcing me to play at the pace of other players because they can't do something on their own just makes me back into my own corner more. Having to do LFR to upgrade my mythic raid gear instead of getting valor from mythic raids is garbage. Having to slow down in LFD because some new player doesn't have a guild or can't be a DPS is garbage. Also, you can't votekick people without 3 votes, so if the majority of the dungeon group wants to go faster, then that's how the system works and is designed. You are mad at Blizzard, not the people using the systems they put in place.

Personally I would rather wait extra time knowing I'm getting matched with people at my ilevel than wait 20 minutes anyway to get someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I would also like a NA/BR/Oceanic checkbox, even if that meant a longer queue time I'm willing to pay that price for better odds at a good group.

At this point they really need to stop trying to entice and coddling new players to play the game. They aren't coming. Try to keep the players you have by molding the game to their needs, otherwise they're just gonna keep pushing them away for an imaginary playerbase that probably won't come.

The ten minutes it took to download could have happened on patch day, without occupying a huge part of my hard drive for the next week. But it just wasn't worth fighting with any more.

?? It would only take ten minutes on patch day because they started the download early? If everyone downloaded the patch all at once it would be RIP.

 

[Lomax]

?? It would only take ten minutes on patch day because they started the download early? If everyone downloaded the patch all at once it would be RIP.

Pssh, patch bandwidth is always fine, and you can download while the servers are still down even if it takes a little bit longer. Or I could have chosen to do the download the day before the patch instead of a week before. The "don't download" settings exist for a reason, they should work and not continually reset themselves. And I shouldn't have to fork over 20 gb of space if I don't want to. It's great they offer the pre-download, if people want to take advantage of that it's a great option to have especially for people with slower download speeds. But it's supposed to be just that, an option. Not something that continually turns itself back on every day.

 

[ZenaxPure]

I guess that depends on what you consider "significant." I mean, they play similar in that they are non-dagger rogue specs, but the feel is pretty different and the aesthetics are definitely a different direction. The saber slash extra attack/free pistol shot mechanic is definitely a departure from combat, as far as I know (I don't really play rogue so I could be wrong)

Yeah, what exactly does significant mean. Cause outlaw doesn't really feel much like combat imo but that is also coming from the perspective of someone who has mained rogue for a decade.

I mean you generate combo points and spend them but thats about where I'd end the comparison. Combat is way more static than outlaw because RtB changes the flow of gameplay each use (which has been even more intensified in last nights beta build).

 

[Ken]

Yeah, what exactly does significant mean. Cause outlaw doesn't really feel much like combat imo but that is also coming from the perspective of someone who has mained rogue for a decade.

I mean you generate combo points and spend them but thats about where I'd end the comparison. Combat is way more static than outlaw because RtB changes the flow of gameplay each use (which has been even more intensified in last nights beta build).

aren't you still just spending points on the new eviscerate between buff upkeep? and maybe the other finisher if you get the crit RtB buff

i'm only a level 68 combat rogue on live though. just asking cause i'm trying to figure out if i want to boost it to 100

 

[King Gilga]

If I went through the trouble of buying heirlooms so I can go faster, do I not also deserve a tank that can go fast as well?

What no? LFD is a gamble, that's the way it is, if you expect any more you're entitled tbh. It's like anything in the game, If you want a tank or group that can go fast, win, do the objectives, w/e find a guild or make it yourself, don't be a toxic loner in lf whatever.

Edit: I do agree with your other post in that blizzard not awarding valor in WoD's real raids is a fucking joke and a half though.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

What no? LFD is a gamble, that's the way it is, if you expect any more you're entitled tbh. It's like anything in the game, If you want a tank or group that can go fast find a guild or make it yourself, don't be a toxic loner in lf whatever.

Right, the gamble also includes being kicked because you aren't geared enough. That is the problem.

Explain why only the faster paced players should find a premade group and not the slower ones though. If you want to guarantee a group going at your pace, make a premade either way. But don't complain when the slow people get kicked by the fast ones, and vice versa, because that's the way the system is designed.

 

[Tenebrous]

I'm all for putting geared folk with similar, and ungeared folk with their kind, but whenever it's suggested, it's shot down as being snobby & elitist.

 

[King Gilga]

Explain why only the faster paced players should find a premade group and not the slower ones though.

I honestly don't know if this is a serious or if you're being purposefully obtuse. Because that's a ridiculous thing to ask.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

I'm all for putting geared folk with similar, and ungeared folk with their kind, but whenever it's suggested, it's shot down as being snobby & elitist.

The people shooting it down are the ones who want to be carried or don't want to put in the effort, otherwise they wouldn't have a problem with it.

Having a toggle between 'heirloom players' or 'find within +/-5 ilevels' wouldn't affect anyone besides the people who want to be leeches.

I honestly don't know if this is a serious or if you're being purposefully obtuse. Because that's a ridiculous thing to ask.

I'm not being obtuse at all, I'm legitimately wondering why a new player should be given a free ride.

 

[Tenebrous]

It'd also teach newer players a lot more about the game.

How much is WoD newbie Dave going to learn from running RFD & Dire Maul, if a full set of heirloom cats do there thing before he has a chance to even read what his new ability does?

I'd also like to limit it to people who have a full set of enchants on their gear, but that's just me.

 

[TheYanger]

Yeah I don't see it so much as a free ride is "how can this be fun for those players, they're not seeing any of the game".

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Yeah I don't see it so much as a free ride is "how can this be fun for those players, they're not seeing any of the game".

That should really be how I am framing this, because a fully heirloom prot warrior or guardian druid can solo a dungeon at appropriate level, throw in a dps or heal and the new guy in the back is gonna get lost and frustrated fast.

So, do they have to stop and explain to him his class and the dungeon layout each time they get a new person? Unreasonable. I will never see this person again after this dungeon is over because Blizzard lets me queue up again, they've made everyone disposable people.

 

[Tarazet]

I will say that someone rushing through a dungeon and wiping people is pretty rare for me. There's always at least 2 people or so geared out enough to where they can carry the group at a fast pace.

Skill is definitely a problem at all levels though. I've seen wipes on instances like Hellfire Ramparts or Mana Tombs with the tank and at least one DPS (usually me) in full looms. We had a Death Knight tank in HFC LFR yesterday who was so bad, he got kicked before the end of the first boss, even though we weren't going to wipe. I'm talking 5k dps, using all of the wrong buttons possible, going afk while he had threat and dying then not accepting res.

 

[dimb]

aren't you still just spending points on the new eviscerate between buff upkeep? and maybe the other finisher if you get the crit RtB buff

i'm only a level 68 combat rogue on live though. just asking cause i'm trying to figure out if i want to boost it to 100

Death from Above has the potential to be more competitive with the other talents in the tree and that would be a new spender, but otherwise, yes, Eviscerate/Run-through is going to be what points are spent on. Resetting or shortening large cooldowns will probably be a major theme for the spec as it moves forward though.

 

[Ken]

Death from Above has the potential to be more competitive with the other talents in the tree and that would be a new spender, but otherwise, yes, Eviscerate/Run-through is going to be what points are spent on. Resetting or shortening large cooldowns will probably be a major theme for the spec as it moves forward though.

when are you gonna come to bonechewer and carry me

 

[Tenebrous]

That should really be how I am framing this, because a fully heirloom prot warrior or guardian druid can solo a dungeon at appropriate level, throw in a dps or heal and the new guy in the back is gonna get lost and frustrated fast.

So, do they have to stop and explain to him his class and the dungeon layout each time they get a new person? Unreasonable. I will never see this person again after this dungeon is over because Blizzard lets me queue up again, they've made everyone disposable people.

Yup. I'm alright with taking someone under my wing every once in a while, but teaching player after player the basics of their class because Blizzard fail at teaching it themselves? Not so much.

Really feel bad that new players won't get to experience pre 2.4 SFK... I learned so much in that damn place. Probably wiped more on Vanilla Arugal than I did Gorefiend mythic.

 

[Artanisix]

ughh i just want the prepatch so i can level a paladin with new skills and animations and DYNAMIC CAM

 

[ZenaxPure]

aren't you still just spending points on the new eviscerate between buff upkeep? and maybe the other finisher if you get the crit RtB buff

Yeah, like I said it's still all about generating points and then spending them on finishers. It's just the actual flow of that is very different based on which RtB buff you get. I don't really want to write a huge wall of text but the short version of it is that RtB changes the frequency at which you use those abilities so it doesn't always feel static like combat currently does. You will have times during RtB where you are basically spamming your finisher because you are generating tons of combo points at once, or other times where you are spamming saber slash a bunch between finishers (closer to live combat) because you have increased energy regen.

It only gets more complicated when you take into account that you can get multiple RtB buffs at a time. There is a 2 buff combo where 75% of the time your saber slash is generating 4 combo points per use while also proccing pistol shot which gives another 2-3 depending on your talents. It's just way more of a dynamic spec than combat is right now.

Death from Above has the potential to be more competitive with the other talents in the tree and that would be a new spender, but otherwise, yes, Eviscerate/Run-through is going to be what points are spent on.

The beta build last night gave a buff to between the eyes so it does 4x damage when it crits. So run through isn't the only damaging finisher you'll be using anymore. It's just one of the examples I am getting at where RtB changes up how you play enough so that it feels different each set of buffs. Yeah you are still just generating and spending but the frequency and skills you use change pretty dramatically depending on what buffs you have.

 

[dimb]

when are you gonna come to bonechewer and carry me

My only real Horde character is a capped Paladin I don't like playing at all...and I don't see anything in Legion that would really change that.

 

[Ken]

My only real Horde character is a capped Paladin I don't like playing at all...and I don't see anything in Legion that would really change that.

(

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Skill is definitely a problem at all levels though. I've seen wipes on instances like Hellfire Ramparts or Mana Tombs with the tank and at least one DPS (usually me) in full looms. We had a Death Knight tank in HFC LFR yesterday who was so bad, he got kicked before the end of the first boss, even though we weren't going to wipe. I'm talking 5k dps, using all of the wrong buttons possible, going afk while he had threat and dying then not accepting res.

This is where it's a lot more nebulous and they've done stuff to fix it, like proving grounds.

Now in legion they've gone a step forward and two steps back, they've pretty much made Heroic Dungeons useless afaik and Mythic+ Dungeons are gonna be where the real rewards are. They aren't as hard as Challenge Mode so the 'average' player will be doing them more, and you can't do them in the dungeon finder so for all intents and purposes, the "old" heroic dungeons are back.

But with the tier set and trinkets dropping from LFR again so far, I just can't help but feel the spousal abuse syndrome again. Why isn't that entire ecosystem just closed off on itself? Why are there relevant rewards from 4 difficulties of a single raid? I'm being tricked into these lower difficulties that I derive no enjoyment from.

I used to be able to swallow the whole logic that LFR players 'deserve' the same rewards mythic players do, but they reneged on that in WoD and started giving a separate set bonus so you could still get the sense of progression.

But after the Valor for LFR thing I am 100% convinced they want normal/heroic/mythic raid geared people in LFR to make it smoother for the new people. They have no other motivation for giving valor ONLY in LFR other than that. If you got valor the same way as you did tomes where you could only get it from a boss once a week, it'd work out for every level of raiding.

Now I guess I don't technically "have" to do LFR in legion for set bonuses, but I guess by that logic I don't technically "have" to go to my raid as prepared as I can be and I don't "have" to be wearing any gear at all if I want the best chances of bosses dying. Even if I don't "have" to go do LFR I still FEEL as if I do, isn't that a problem that Blizzard regularly cites when they make changes? Players take the path of least resistance and they don't want that feeling right?

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I'm all for putting geared folk with similar, and ungeared folk with their kind, but whenever it's suggested, it's shot down as being snobby & elitist.

I wish people wouldn't be jerks about this, because I'd sure like to get into Mythic dungeons, and apparently, 704 is just too low because people are only interested in speedrunning them.

 

[Tenebrous]

I wish people wouldn't be jerks about this, because I'd sure like to get into Mythic dungeons, and apparently, 704 is just too low because people are only interested in speedrunning them.

There's also plenty of people around your iLvl that will gladly do them with you. When I made groups on my druid (when it was around the 700-710 mark), I made it 690+ & actually took in a few higher & a few lower. Was pretty fun! We were all relatively equal - Except on bosses where I'd reck face, because y'know, Balance CDs are insane.

That said, if I'm on my Prot Warrior, I want 740+ & uber fast clears... I mean, why wouldn't I? I've cleared each of the dungeons 35+ times, so why bother with lesser geared players when there's plenty of people with the gear I have looking to clear ASAP for Valor.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

I wish people wouldn't be jerks about this, because I'd sure like to get into Mythic dungeons, and apparently, 704 is just too low because people are only interested in speedrunning them.

I do mythic runs with my guild mates alts all the time. I was just making fun of my friend who had a fresh boosted character that had level 60 rings.

But it was my guild mates, the people I play with and are invested in. I would have no reason to do it for a complete stranger.

Are you saying you would be willing to bring 705s to your mythic dungeon runs when you got to 740 ilevel? For your 50th time running mythic dungeons, you wouldn't care about doing them slowly?

I can't really blame people who don't really have a frame of reference for this stuff, but saying people are jerks because they don't want to do charity runs all the time is a little off base.

 

[Ashodin]

I'm making tons of money lately with my garrison. I've sold a shitton of mats and other items I had been holding onto since vanilla for straight cash.

I've got money for next month's sub. YAY!

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I do mythic runs with my guild mates alts all the time. I was just making fun of my friend who had a fresh boosted character that had level 60 rings.

But it was my guild mates, the people I play with and are invested in. I would have no reason to do it for a complete stranger.

Are you saying you would be willing to bring 705s to your mythic dungeon runs when you got to 740 ilevel? For your 50th time running mythic dungeons, you wouldn't care about doing them slowly?

I can't really blame people who don't really have a frame of reference for this stuff, but saying people are jerks because they don't want to do charity runs all the time is a little off base.

I don't have any problem carrying people through content as long as they aren't just AFKing. It's not a big deal to me.

When we completed SoO heroic in MoP, half of our entire guild was being carried by the other half who were really good players. That's just how it is sometimes. I'm very aware that my WoW philosophy is a lot different than most people who play the game.

I'm not throwing shade at people who only want to do it that way, I'm just saying that it sucks for people in my position who are trying to find runs and can't because most of them are dominated by elitists. I'm also aware that most of my issues finding groups for content are because I've come back very close to the end of an expansion and I'm geared a lot lower than I'd like. It's just unfortunate all the way around. Also I want that trinket. x_x

 

[Milennia]

ptr just now updated to release btw

 

[Dog Problems]

ptr just now updated to release btw

Does that mean the pre-patch will be out soon?

 

[Anoregon]

Does that mean the pre-patch will be out soon?

It's going to be either this Tuesday or the following one.

 

[Artanisix]

ptr just now updated to release btw

Kreygasm

 

[Lomax]

I don't have any problem carrying people through content as long as they aren't just AFKing. It's not a big deal to me.

When we completed SoO heroic in MoP, half of our entire guild was being carried by the other half who were really good players. That's just how it is sometimes. I'm very aware that my WoW philosophy is a lot different than most people who play the game.

I'm not throwing shade at people who only want to do it that way, I'm just saying that it sucks for people in my position who are trying to find runs and can't because most of them are dominated by elitists. I'm also aware that most of my issues finding groups for content are because I've come back very close to the end of an expansion and I'm geared a lot lower than I'd like. It's just unfortunate all the way around. Also I want that trinket. x_x

One thing about using the tool to find mythics is you have to understand what they are looking at. If 5-10 people apply for the three DPS slots, they're going to take the highest iLvl ones. If they can easily find 3 dps with an iLvl over 710, they're going to put 710 as the minimum just as an easy filter (or 715 or whatever). It isn't so much elitism as it is pragmatism. Do those people probably understand a 690 player would be fine? Sure they do. But why would they choose that person when they can have someone better geared?

You could always try whispering the group leader, link good older achievements, or something like that. But most of those groups just want to get in and get done as fast as possible. Finding DPS is never a limiter on that.

One other option if you have gold, you can offer in trade to pay for someone to tank and/or heal and make your own group.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

One thing about using the tool to find mythics is you have to understand what they are looking at. If 5-10 people apply for the three DPS slots, they're going to take the highest iLvl ones. If they can easily find 3 dps with an iLvl over 710, they're going to put 710 as the minimum just as an easy filter (or 715 or whatever). It isn't so much elitism as it is pragmatism. Do those people probably understand a 690 player would be fine? Sure they do. But why would they choose that person when they can have someone better geared?

You could always try whispering the group leader, link good older achievements, or something like that. But most of those groups just want to get in and get done as fast as possible. Finding DPS is never a limiter on that.

One other option if you have gold, you can offer in trade to pay for someone to tank and/or heal and make your own group.

Yeah, like I said, I totally get it. It's a pragmatic choice. I'm not mad, but rather frustrated. I wanna do mythics too!

Really, my life would be easier if I went all in on finding a guild, but I don't want to just join any guild. I'm trying to find another one that raids, and because of my work hours, my raid schedule is limited to weekends.

*grumble grumble*

In unrelated to me whining questions, prepatch is next week, right? I already made my money back from buying my moose run, so I need a new goal to focus on.

 

[Tenebrous]

Yeah, like I said, I totally get it. It's a pragmatic choice. I'm not mad, but rather frustrated. I wanna do mythics too!

Then make your own group with requirements to match your level. You'll be fine!

 

[LAUGHTREY]

http://ambitionsarg.enjin.com/

My guild runs 6-10CST on the weekends.

 

[Tenebrous]

http://ambitionsarg.enjin.com/

My guild runs 6-10CST on the weekends.

Totally didn't find your Warlock & go straight to Warcraftlogs. Nope.

 

[Milennia]

http://ambitionsarg.enjin.com/

My guild runs 6-10CST on the weekends.

damnit i didnt know soakz had one of his characters in that guild lol he has peepz everywhere

 

[hey_monkey]

Skill is definitely a problem at all levels though. I've seen wipes on instances like Hellfire Ramparts or Mana Tombs with the tank and at least one DPS (usually me) in full looms. We had a Death Knight tank in HFC LFR yesterday who was so bad, he got kicked before the end of the first boss, even though we weren't going to wipe. I'm talking 5k dps, using all of the wrong buttons possible, going afk while he had threat and dying then not accepting res.

That has less to do with skill than with someone who just shouldn't be there in a group at all. That's the kind of person who should be kicked.

 

[Data West]

So the actual content content of the pre-patch isn't even launching with the pre-patch and will be later down the road?

......Why?

 

[HarryDemeanor]

So the actual content content of the pre-patch isn't even launching with the pre-patch and will be later down the road?

......Why?

Metzen.

 

[Entropia]

So the actual content content of the pre-patch isn't even launching with the pre-patch and will be later down the road?

......Why?

I think they've done that before, have they not??

I think it's also have some time for people to get used to their class changes.

 

[Strimei]

So the actual content content of the pre-patch isn't even launching with the pre-patch and will be later down the road?

......Why?

Unless I missed something, only the demon invasions are.

There's other stuff. The Broken Shore, visiting Karazhan and Ulduar...

(which, admittedly, aren't that much stuff on their own, but still)

I imagine it'll be one of those a week. Broken Shore first, Karazhan next, etc.

 

[I'm an expert]

Did they say how bad the garrison/shipyard mission gold nerfs will be? It's coming with the prepatch right!

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Did they say how bad the garrison/shipyard mission gold nerfs will be? It's coming with the prepatch right!

All gold missions will become garrison resource missions. All Treasure Hunter followers will become Extreme Scavengers.

 

[phoenix296]

Anyone doing Moose Mount runs on US? Horde or Alliance. I'll pay!