have you not heard of the patented blizzard redemption storyline?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
World of Warcraft |OT8| CITIZENS OF DALARAN
- Thread starter ampere
- Start date
have you not heard of the patented blizzard redemption storyline?
Agreed. And maybe not remove some of the cooler weapons, too.
Least the Eredar Battle Blade (intellect sword) is in still, that's the one I'm aiming for.
DKs got the short end of the stick for new animations though. Really lackluster compared to the other melee classes.
Also, surprised to see people defending Sylvanas. She fell back from her defensive position to save someone who might as well have already been dead, and to make sure washed up Thrall got out alive. Kind of a bad trade for all of the powerful Alliance characters that could have fallen there.
without telling anyone either
yes, i too am shockinged that the horde leaders didn't literally all die just to save varian wrynn.
Nobody is asking them all to die. Weakly crumpling and drawing a hasty full retreat could have been disastrous though. Look what would have happened if Varian did not sacrifice himself...you'd have seen most of the Alliance leaders wiped out. Her fear of losing her troops led her to withdraw less important forces with what could have ended with a large number of the most powerful heroes against the Legion falling.
and if sylvanas didn't withdraw the horde leaders would have been wiped out instead...i thought that was kind of obvious from the scenes of them all being spanked by demons and vol'jin saying 'don't like the horde die today'.
shiftplusone
Member
playing my alliance character, first invasion is in the barrens
DONT THESE HORDE PLAYERS KNOW THERE IS A BIGGER THREAT THAN ME
DONT THESE HORDE PLAYERS KNOW THERE IS A BIGGER THREAT THAN ME
Vul'jin asked her to brah
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah, it's pretty clear cut. She didn't retreat just to try to save Vol'Jin. Every Horde warrior there would have died if they tried to hold the line against endless demon waves.
Hippopuncher12
Member
So the only "original" wow faction leaders left in that state are Sylvanas...Mekkatorque and Tyrande....damn.
Baine and Sylvanas are fully capable of retreating easily on their own, but they refuse to leave behind a contingent force because Sylvanas is weak, and does not want to sacrifice her undead soldiers because she has difficulty replacing them. Vol'jin was weak, and more than that, he retreated from the battlefield instead of dying honorably or putting up a stand to help others.
After the mess the Horde were in Mists, they've only proven that they have not reforged into something strong and unified. Their actions on the Broken Shore are an embarrassment.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
lol @ "contingent force". If the strength of your entire force is crumbling in the face of truly overwhelming,countless legions of demons, what good is leaving behind a smaller force that will be immediately destroyed?
ALLIANCE MENTAL GYMNASTICS IN FULL EFFECT
Yeah the Horde force was already lost at the point of retreat. Communication is the issue here. Makes me wonder about the tactical choice anyway, having the Horde and Alliance fight in different fronts like that with no communication.
Kinda cool from Blizzard to make the choice and leave important part out of the Alliance cutscene. Kinda makes the Alliance players more angry at the Horde and Sylvanas. Unless people watch the Horde cutscene online, that is.
Sylvanas sure didn't want to risk her life by making the Val'kyr fight the demons, though.. Could've ended a lot differently.
ALSO! What would be cool, is to see
Genn vs Sylvanas as the leaders of Alliance and Horde. Anduin's a pussy, need Genn to be the angry leader.
You buy precious time for the others to retreat.
Y'know, like Varian did.
But yeah, mental gymnastics, sure.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
There was no time left to buy. That's the whole point. The horde retreated because they could not hold out any longer.
i mean.........i understand that 'tactically' it might have been a better idea to distract the demons for as long as possible and sacrifice your entire army and your own life to give the other force as big a window as they could...but then like...from the point of view of trying to explain to horde players logging in after legion launch that as the highest rank living horde commander the flight master of ogrimmar is the new warchief...
I'm not saying retreating was a bad idea, the Alliance was doing the same.
What I'm saying is you sacrifice some of your forces to cover them and buy time for the retreat. Varian sacrificed himself to take out the (I can't remember the name) construct that was holding down the airship so the others could live. Sylvanas could have sacrificed some of her people, hell she could've sacrificed herself (like she'd ever do that though) to buy time for both the Alliance and Horde to retreat in full.
Instead, she pulled back with just the Horde and left the Alliance to their fate. Its an ugly situation all around, but she could've done more.
At the end of the day, the Alliance were relying on the Horde to back them up. They failed at backing them up.
yep level 93 hunter here, just played a Warsong Gulch a enemy Resto shaman tanked 3 DPS and lived while his buddy tank warrior killed one of the dps solo.
Pretty sure I'm confused and scratching my head at this. I'd call that the worst BG I've been in since I've returned after 1 1/2 years away. Two weeks ago when I reupped BGs was fun Warsong Gulch was still lopsided teams as fuck but today. wow.
Pretty sure I'm confused and scratching my head at this. I'd call that the worst BG I've been in since I've returned after 1 1/2 years away. Two weeks ago when I reupped BGs was fun Warsong Gulch was still lopsided teams as fuck but today. wow.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Just not seeing it. If the Horde retreats but leaves a small force behind to try and cover the Alliance, that force is almost immediately overrun, meaning it has pretty much no effect. Not to mention Gul'Dan can still call down the Fel Reaver as soon as the alliance heads to the ship. It's a totally meaningless loss.
Its not meaningless. At the bare minimum, the Alliance would still see Horde forces fighting, instead of turning their backs and leaving. Sylvanas would've avoided giving the Alliance the impression of them deserting.
absolutely disgusting
I don't really know what to tell you. The person who suggest the confrontation against Gul'dan is Sylvanas, and she is the one who says she will cover the flank for the Alliance. Even while the Alliance face the brunt of the forces of Gul'dan head on the Horde fall and fail, but beyond that the only thing they are willing to sacrifice is the Alliance to cover their own retreat. There are Horde forces there, but Sylvanas is unwilling to leave them behind, or coordinate a unified retreat. Please see her listed character bio if you need proof for why she retreats completely:
The only possible interpretation of the events at the Broken Shore is a display of embarrassment for the Horde. Vol'jin is weak and cowardly. Sylvanas is weak and cowardly. Thrall is weak and cowardly. These are facts, and the Alliance are the heroes that stand to fight and sacrifice themselves for the greater cause of battling the Legion.
DalikSkywing
Member
ugh, dont tell me there are alliance players spouting nonsense here too...mmoc leaking?
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Your whole argument boils down to 'Even more horde characters should have died so that no Alliance characters died"
Straight up alliance filth
You're just putting words in their mouth.
Also I like that you seem to ignore my point that even sacrificing a few and keeping some archers up would have at least managed to keep the Alliance from viewing the Horde as traitors. Because that wouldn't fit the narrative of "alliance filth" and "mental gymnastics."
i mean...as i say...if you think the reasonable alternative to this is horde players logging in to find that every horde hero in the game is dead, then shrug. i mean that would have been kind of cool in its own way, but at least this way the alliance get to feel 'wronged' because the horde didn't sacrifice absolutely everything to save varian wrynn, and also get to chuckle that the war chief gets killed by a felguard (nerf warlocks pls) while marian sue chunks his way thru the biggest demon ever before dying.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it's straight up untenable. Everyone who died (plus extra) still dies but the alliance feels a little better for a few extra seconds before being overwhelmed and Varian still has to stay behind so that the airship can leave. Big whoop.
Sylvanas wouldn't even have had to sacrifice herself, for pete's sake. She could've left some generic Horde forces behind, instead. Anything, it could've been a peon with a stick, at the least it would've kept up the illusion that the Horde had the Alliance's back (even though they didn't).
You're ignoring the fact that doing what I said would've avoided having Greymane and Jaina being all "the Horde can't be trusted." Now the Alliance wants Horde blood as well as the Legion on top of all this. Sylvanas mucked it up royally.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I doubt it. They both have a palpable hateboner for the horde and I could easily see them arguing that the horde should have done more to try and save Varian. Nothing short of sacrificing every horde soldier there would be good enough for Jaina.
allies in that situation: 'cowardly sylvanas sacrificing peon with stick to cover her own retreat!', shrug.
besides, i think that if the demons have already killed the war chief and thrall is lying on the ground like a chump, then a peon with a stick isn't going to do very much.
I'll grant you those looking for slights would still find something, but at least it'd give some sort of defense against it, surely you can see that, right? A token effort is better than doing nothing and leaving the Alliance to their fate. All it does is reinforce the idea that the Horde is untrustworthy. Seriously, why should the Alliance trust the Horde after this? We players have the benefit of seeing both sides, but the characters ingame don't, so to the Alliance, its just the Horde failing them and saving their own hides over helping.
You never know. One man could change everything. And like I said above, it'd at least help image-wise. But yeah, fine, Sylvanas did no wrong, rah rah Horde, lok'tar ogar (that means "screw you, I got mine!" right?)
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I'm not saying Sylvanas is perfect, but I just find shit like "Everyone from the Horde is cowardly and weak and this proved it" to be laughable bullshit. Of course I'm gonna be dismissive of that kind of nonsense.
no i mean, sylvanas saving her own hide is surprisingly in-character considering blizzard writing. the horde have always been more opportunistic than the alliance. it's just that like, when you consider the reasonable alternative—the horde being wiped out just so that varian wrynn maybe lives—running away with your tail between your legs seems like a not so bad choice.
And, again, I'm not saying that.
What I am saying is that Sylvanas made a big mistake and is an idiot for not sacrificing some to at least keep up appearances. The Alliance, from their perspective (again, remember that they do not know what truly went down up there), are valid in their anger at the Horde, because all it did was reinforce the idea that when the chips are down, the Horde will save themselves and sacrifice the Alliance, whereas the Alliance has helped them in the past (I mean, they did kinda save their hides with the Siege).
I'll certainly agree to that. I mean, if I were Sylvanas, and if I were so afraid of dying as she was, I'd probably be more than happy to ditch the Alliance. But it was not a smart move.
This is not to say no Alliance characters should die, but the Horde simply left them high and dry after taking up the role of covering their flank. Nothing about the scenario portrays the Horde in a positive light. Not only are they failures, but they lack conviction, and are unwilling to truly cooperate with the Alliance. There is no real grey area here. The argument is not that the Horde leaders all need to sacrifice themselves, but ultimately their retreat uses the Alliance as a decoy just to coordinate a retreat that accommodates those who have fallen. Vol'jin, clearly set for death, and Thrall, who has proven to be increasingly incompetent. The Horde did not prioritize the fight against the Legion, they prioritized self-preservation of doomed individuals at the cost of some of the strongest forces that would have stood against the Burning Legion. They did nothing to tell the Alliance that their flank was even falling, they simply quietly withdrew. This is what the Horde has become? It's pathetic. For Vol'jin to retreat to die on his throne instead of doing everything he could on the battlefield...this is not what the Horde ever stood for. Horde players that have any pride for their faction should know better.
I mean he was trained by Orcs and named Lo'Gosh
Also ITT: Alliance bros have no chill
I was there breh, we were going to be wiped out, ALL OF US if Sylvanas did not retreat. She had to. We couldn't spare anyone to get back to the boat
It was just ONE boat we got on to get away too brehs
Varian was bout to peace out too but Gul'dan got the drop on him (cuz they were right in front of the Tomb's entrance) with Fel Reaver 3.0