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World of Warcraft
- Thread starter Cerebral Palsy
- Start date
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Son of Godzilla
Banned
SyNapSe said:
Feral Druids have always had Shadowcraft!
Nah, hunters really do have the worst. I've got 60 hunter, lock, and warrior and the only one that's a ****ing no brainer is the hunter. Casters have a *ton* of options, and for the most part have always had them. Sta, Int, Regen, Crit, +DMG. They can mix and match as they please, and more than that they have the ability to benefit differently from each. Hell, there's even some Armor pieces now. That's not even counting the one off items with special abilities. Warrior itemization is easily the best in the game. Hunters can uh... get some random pieces with shitty +crit and ap... or.... the exact same epic sets that everyone else has with disgustingly terrible set bonuses.
And that's ignoring weapons, as I'm much more a fan of IAOTH and other speed mods, at least untill Hunts get enough mana regen to make Aimed/Multi not suck without FD/drink.
Getting excited about raiding again. We've gone from Broodlord to Nefarian in 3 weeks. Had to expand BWL to two nights to accomodate it though. It's nice to see everyone excited again. We floundered for 2 months on Razorgore and vael. Many raids canceled due to attendance, but now that the gravy train has opened up, attendance doesn't seem to be an issue. I guess even raiders want easy epics. =P
Dancing around the fire pole in preparation for the big fight!
3rd attempt at Chromaggus. No more time stop for you!
The view from atop Blackrock Mountain:
Nice group shot with Nefarian in the background. It was late so we only had a couple of half hearted attempts. We'll be back this weekend though!
(pics from monday night)
Dancing around the fire pole in preparation for the big fight!
3rd attempt at Chromaggus. No more time stop for you!
The view from atop Blackrock Mountain:
Nice group shot with Nefarian in the background. It was late so we only had a couple of half hearted attempts. We'll be back this weekend though!
(pics from monday night)
yeah, mages/locks can get a lot of stam and int... and do jack shit for damage. there's only one way to gear up a caster and that's +damage. And +damage is ****ing stupid as hell when all melee and hunters get damage from str/agi and the cost in item level for +crit +hit and +attack power is less than +damage and +mana/5. It really doesn't matter that there's completely garbage sets like Ironweave when there's no use whatsoever to getting them. With blizzard's retarded itemization team, the priority is +damage above all else, then stamina, then spell hit, then spell crit. Hunters can whine about having only 2 crossbows that deal insane dps and having to auto/multi/aimed rotate all the time, but if you have your best weapon and your set you're doing way more damage on nearly every fight than a mage/lock with their best weapon and set. The only time a mage/lock may outdamage on a fight is if it's like the drake talon packs, or chromaggus always comes up fire/frost/shadow vulnerable. Even gimpy rogues deal way more dps than casters when everyone's equally geared. So you may only have one option, but that option is damn well done. Mages/warlocks have two options (spell crit or spell hit, which are completely secondary to +damage) and neither of those can compare to your one option.
I wouldn't complain at all about caster itemization if Blizzard made it so int adds to damage spells and spirit adds to healing/shield spells so cloth gear wasn't getting raped on stats that would boost longevity AND damage output in raids. But until then, cloth wearers are by far the worst itemized classes in the game. We get NOTHING out of stats except more hp/mp, that's why our itemization is so bad.
I wouldn't complain at all about caster itemization if Blizzard made it so int adds to damage spells and spirit adds to healing/shield spells so cloth gear wasn't getting raped on stats that would boost longevity AND damage output in raids. But until then, cloth wearers are by far the worst itemized classes in the game. We get NOTHING out of stats except more hp/mp, that's why our itemization is so bad.
INT increases your chance to crit, which increases DPS, and STA keeps you alive during encounters with environmental or otherwise unavoidable damage (see- Anub'Rehkan.)
Basically, every class complains about itemization, except warriors, who complain about their abilities getting nurfed due to great itemization.
Basically, every class complains about itemization, except warriors, who complain about their abilities getting nurfed due to great itemization.
Fragamemnon
Member
Stamina is a really undervalued stat for cloth. As you get deeper into the game it goes from "I took damage because I tarded out" to "I'm going to take damage this fight, and I will hardly be the only one taking damage at this time so I might not get a heal fast". Anyone who has done Ouro or C'thun or most of the stuff in Naxx knows that stamina on a mage or priest is hardly a wasted stat. And it was never ever ever wasted on a warlock, of course. 
My main beef is intellect, honestly. The amount of crit a cloth caster gets per point of intellect is very very meager. So all it really does is boost your mana pool, which isn't very imporatant anyway for any of the cloth casters. Warlocks tap and bandage back their mana, mages use mana gems and evocation, and priests stack spirit and mana per 5 gear to regen their mana, or get innervates. In a decent duration fight I regen more mana than I start out with in my mana pool by a good margin, especially if I eat an innervate (I have 410 raidbuffed spirit and about 50 mana per 5).
Spirit is fine for priests but druids should be extended the same regen calculation as priests currently get. It's worthless for mages and locks, but that's not a real problem since they don't really get too much of it on their gear anyway.
Saitoh-I still love the Nefarion fight. I'm an agent of alliance easymode in the fight (being a Dwarf priest) but I really enjoy everything about the fight. Especially the time right after the huge zerg spawns at 20%, it gets all crazy but then once all the adds are dead you know you've got the bastard dead and can just enjoy the rest of the fight. And once you get Nefarion down and are starting the horrific waste of time that is AQ40 (I recommend just going to Naxx instead, seriously), you'll miss how nicely designed BWL is and wish you could farm that twice a week instead of doing AQ40 and BWL. ;p
My main beef is intellect, honestly. The amount of crit a cloth caster gets per point of intellect is very very meager. So all it really does is boost your mana pool, which isn't very imporatant anyway for any of the cloth casters. Warlocks tap and bandage back their mana, mages use mana gems and evocation, and priests stack spirit and mana per 5 gear to regen their mana, or get innervates. In a decent duration fight I regen more mana than I start out with in my mana pool by a good margin, especially if I eat an innervate (I have 410 raidbuffed spirit and about 50 mana per 5).
Spirit is fine for priests but druids should be extended the same regen calculation as priests currently get. It's worthless for mages and locks, but that's not a real problem since they don't really get too much of it on their gear anyway.
Saitoh-I still love the Nefarion fight. I'm an agent of alliance easymode in the fight (being a Dwarf priest) but I really enjoy everything about the fight. Especially the time right after the huge zerg spawns at 20%, it gets all crazy but then once all the adds are dead you know you've got the bastard dead and can just enjoy the rest of the fight. And once you get Nefarion down and are starting the horrific waste of time that is AQ40 (I recommend just going to Naxx instead, seriously), you'll miss how nicely designed BWL is and wish you could farm that twice a week instead of doing AQ40 and BWL. ;p
Howard Alan Treesong
Member
Draft said:
Pop quiz, hot shot: How many AGI does it take to add 1% to Rogue crit? vs. How many INT does it take to add 1% to Priest crit?
Yeah, I thought so!
Fragamemnon said:Stamina is a really undervalued stat for cloth. As you get deeper into the game it goes from "I took damage because I tarded out" to "I'm going to take damage this fight, and I will hardly be the only one taking damage at this time so I might not get a heal fast". Anyone who has done Ouro or C'thun or most of the stuff in Naxx knows that stamina on a mage or priest is hardly a wasted stat. And it was never ever ever wasted on a warlock, of course.
My main beef is intellect, honestly. The amount of crit a cloth caster gets per point of intellect is very very meager. So all it really does is boost your mana pool, which isn't very imporatant anyway for any of the cloth casters. Warlocks tap and bandage back their mana, mages use mana gems and evocation, and priests stack spirit and mana per 5 gear to regen their mana, or get innervates. In a decent duration fight I regen more mana than I start out with in my mana pool by a good margin, especially if I eat an innervate (I have 410 raidbuffed spirit and about 50 mana per 5).
Spirit is fine for priests but druids should be extended the same regen calculation as priests currently get. It's worthless for mages and locks, but that's not a real problem since they don't really get too much of it on their gear anyway.
Saitoh-I still love the Nefarion fight. I'm an agent of alliance easymode in the fight (being a Dwarf priest) but I really enjoy everything about the fight. Especially the time right after the huge zerg spawns at 20%, it gets all crazy but then once all the adds are dead you know you've got the bastard dead and can just enjoy the rest of the fight. And once you get Nefarion down and are starting the horrific waste of time that is AQ40 (I recommend just going to Naxx instead, seriously), you'll miss how nicely designed BWL is and wish you could farm that twice a week instead of doing AQ40 and BWL. ;p
Actually Spirit isn't worthless for us mages
We use it a lot with Mage Armor since it represents a constant mana regen. And Evocation is based on Spirit, so we want at least enough to evoke back an entire mana bar. But I get your points;PFragamemnon
Member
Tama-
Yeah, you do get some benefit but I've never seen it be a real consideration. Heck, my mages don't really bug me about giving them Prayer of Spirit too much. ;p
Patel-
Rogue crit is like 30 agi per 1%, right? I know that priest/mage crit per int is like 1% for 60 or something ridiculous like that. I don't dig too deep in melee DPS foolery other than trying to keep their sorry butts alive when they pull aggro.
Yeah, you do get some benefit but I've never seen it be a real consideration. Heck, my mages don't really bug me about giving them Prayer of Spirit too much. ;p
Patel-
Rogue crit is like 30 agi per 1%, right? I know that priest/mage crit per int is like 1% for 60 or something ridiculous like that. I don't dig too deep in melee DPS foolery other than trying to keep their sorry butts alive when they pull aggro.
59.5 per 1% crit for INT. Which is absolutely silly, that means we get usually 5 extra crit chance with our good gear on from Int.
Oh us mages never bug priests anyways. We don't want to piss off the bored one that actually watches our Hit Points. I swear I'm so paranoid about being ignored that I burn so many bandages right as I'm getting a heal! But to us, dying in battle is a sign of success!
Oh us mages never bug priests anyways. We don't want to piss off the bored one that actually watches our Hit Points. I swear I'm so paranoid about being ignored that I burn so many bandages right as I'm getting a heal! But to us, dying in battle is a sign of success!
Teknopathetic
Member
rogue crit is 20 agi per 1%, needless to say, the int:crit ratio is redonkulous
Azwethinkweiz
Member
fallout said:
Well that's pretty big of you if you go out of your way to learn the nuances of every other class. Most people don't care because it's not their class, therefore it's not their responsibility. And I don't care that people don't know about it, I just care when people bitch at me for not taking a weapon which is "obviously" better than Ash because they think they know my class better than I do.
Just got validated, so here's my first.
I'm a 60 mage on Magtheridon. My guild regularly clears MC, BWL, And we're to Twin Emps in AQ40. (If anyone wants strats, PM. ;D) I'm 5/8 Netherwind, 5/8 Arcanist, and nearly full epic. I've been playing about a year or so. Name is Torber if you ever wanna come look me up.
PS: Firex, I've never used +dmg gear other than what I get from set pieces. I'm int/sta. In raids, I have almost 5k hp and 8k+ mp. I still crit in the low 3000s. It's not all about +dmg gear. Alot of things depend on a solid spec.
I'm a 60 mage on Magtheridon. My guild regularly clears MC, BWL, And we're to Twin Emps in AQ40. (If anyone wants strats, PM. ;D) I'm 5/8 Netherwind, 5/8 Arcanist, and nearly full epic. I've been playing about a year or so. Name is Torber if you ever wanna come look me up.
PS: Firex, I've never used +dmg gear other than what I get from set pieces. I'm int/sta. In raids, I have almost 5k hp and 8k+ mp. I still crit in the low 3000s. It's not all about +dmg gear.
Alot of things depend on a solid spec.Fragamemnon
Member
tehjaybo said:PS: Firex, I've never used +dmg gear other than what I get from set pieces. I'm int/sta. In raids, I have almost 5k hp and 8k+ mp. I still crit in the low 3000s. It's not all about +dmg gear.
I'm assuming that since you're on emps you are at least using the Bronze Dragonflight caster ring. That has spell damage! Mind Quickening Gem/Neltharion's Tear/TOEP/ZHC are all basically +damage gear trinkets, and I'm assuming you use some combination of those.
So basically, you've got your necklace, a ring, and a cloak that may not have damage on it. I bet they do, even if they do have stam and int on them too.
P.S.-Have fun on the emps. I really recommend leaving AQ40 behind and not banging your head on C'thun or Ouro and the huge amount of horrible trash before them and doing Naxx instead once you get them down. Well, clear the trash once so that you can turn in all of your regalias and armaments (I <3 my augur staff).
ok well thanks for that.Synthesizer Patel said:
All I'm saying is that INT does have an effect on your DPS. It increases crit % (not significantly, but even 1% helps) and it gives you more mana to DPS with.
There are reasons rogues get a higher crit % than any other class. They have to put themselves in melee range, they miss a lot, they don't crit for as much as other DPS classes, and most importantly, they are the DPS class. Assuming all gear is equal, no one should be able to out-dps a rogue. No one (certain fights exempted.) So if you rolled a hunter, lock or mage, resign yourself to 2nd place on the damage meters, but enjoy all the additional functionality your class offers.
I'm currently wearing 3/8 netherwind, 3/8 arcanist, 2/5 zandalar. Gotta love those +dmg set bonuses.
I prioritize +dmg and stamina over int, myself. Survivability is a big mage concern, and the more hit points the better, I say. Surviving an accidental aggro pull is great, although that hasn't happened lately with the changes to mage aggro talents. And +crit is nice, but you gotta have +dmg to back those crits up.
There's exactly one time that I want spirit - during Evocation. I swap out of my +dmg weapon to a staff with spirit on it just before I evo and I get a little more mana out of it.
I recently specced myself for BWL as my guild is now killing Chromaggus semi-regularly. I gave myself some funny talents like magic absorption and improved dampen/amplify magic.
The extra +10 resistances means I can ditch the lame-ass DM trinket for something actually useful, and I never run out of mana during Flamegor because of the binary fire nova. With imp. dampen magic, ice barrier and the occasional ward, Vael's AOE and Chromy's DOTs are much easier to deal with.
I prioritize +dmg and stamina over int, myself. Survivability is a big mage concern, and the more hit points the better, I say. Surviving an accidental aggro pull is great, although that hasn't happened lately with the changes to mage aggro talents. And +crit is nice, but you gotta have +dmg to back those crits up.
There's exactly one time that I want spirit - during Evocation. I swap out of my +dmg weapon to a staff with spirit on it just before I evo and I get a little more mana out of it.
I recently specced myself for BWL as my guild is now killing Chromaggus semi-regularly. I gave myself some funny talents like magic absorption and improved dampen/amplify magic.
The extra +10 resistances means I can ditch the lame-ass DM trinket for something actually useful, and I never run out of mana during Flamegor because of the binary fire nova. With imp. dampen magic, ice barrier and the occasional ward, Vael's AOE and Chromy's DOTs are much easier to deal with.
Sigh ... and again, you're treating me like I'm twelve. I don't know the nuances of every other class, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant. I find what people have to say about their classes to be interesting, but it's a lot easier to digest when it's not filled with a bunch of bitching. Calm, rational discussion can go a long way. Granted, I'm guilty of losing it at times. Everyone is, I just think it helps to keep it in mind.Azwethinkweiz said:
Then why even say anything in the first place? I mean, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Personally, I dicuss shaman itemization to highlight the issues with my class, not to somehow quantify it's level of crappiness. Aside from Blizzard resource allocation, which you have little control over anyway, bitching about it is just wasted energy, no?
Fragamemnon said:I'm assuming that since you're on emps you are at least using the Bronze Dragonflight caster ring. That has spell damage! Mind Quickening Gem/Neltharion's Tear/TOEP/ZHC are all basically +damage gear trinkets, and I'm assuming you use some combination of those.
So basically, you've got your necklace, a ring, and a cloak that may not have damage on it. I bet they do, even if they do have stam and int on them too.
I just said I don't focus on it, not that I didn't have any. ;D I really want a Neltharian's Tear and Cloak of the Brood Lord. Trinks right now are ToEP and the selfrez Darkmoon Card. Rings are Forced Concentration and Brood of Nozdormu Neutral ring.
pxleyes said:
QFT. Usually, our top DPS are DPS warriors. They're amazing, given the proper gear.
What do you mean show you? A quick glance at your damage meters should be all it takes.pxleyes said:
Rogues can put out a ridiculous amount of DPS while feinting to reduce their aggro, and they have a 5 minute aggro clear. Assuming a fight lasts 10 minutes, and the aggro ceiling is say, 100,000, a Rogue can do 200,000 damage, and the DPS tank can do 100,000, cause if they do anymore, they stop being a DPS tank and become the tank tank. Same concept applies to mages, who have no active threat clearing abilities, and also to locks, who have one at the end of their demonology talent tree. With passive abilities, they can do about 130,000 points of damage before pulling aggro.
That's why rogues do the most DPS. If you were talking just the ability to do damage, yeah a mage or lock can outpace a rogue. Of course, they then die, or even better, wipe the raid due to messing up the boss' positioning.
Hunters have the best aggro clearing ability, and if they used some form of energy like rogues instead of mana, they'd probably out DPS everyone by a fairly large margin. As it stands, they have to feign and drink because of their shitty mana regen, and that slows their dps considerably.
Seeing as how you seem to lack a basic understanding of aggro and how it applies to DPS classes, I think it's my turn to laugh at you.
Draft said:
Um.....but you were the one claiming that Blizzard stated you are THE DPS class when it's clear that there are several.
I have found that some rogues tend to be the bitchiest of classes though. Also, mages never really have to pull back on their dps. We have across the board aggro reducers that allow us to go full out when the tank declares it's time. Not to mention Ice Block on the offchance that we somehow grab aggro
I never said anything about Blizzard saying this or that. I said they were the best DPS class, based on my own in-game observations.Tamanon said:Um.....but you were the one claiming that Blizzard stated you are THE DPS class when it's clear that there are several.
I have found that some rogues tend to be the bitchiest of classes though. Also, mages never really have to pull back on their dps. We have across the board aggro reducers that allow us to go full out when the tank declares it's time. Not to mention Ice Block on the offchance that we somehow grab aggro
I actually forgot about Ice Block, but that's probably because an ice mages don't tend to outdamage many people
Oh, frost mages are very, very efficient. I am not knocking frost spec, it's great for raiding. It's clearly lacks the damage potential of fire spec, but it makes up for it in efficiency, crowd control and aggro management. I love frost mages.
But they shouldn't be out DPSing your rogues, except on like, Shazzrah, maybe Ragnaros.
But they shouldn't be out DPSing your rogues, except on like, Shazzrah, maybe Ragnaros.
I would really like to know how you can get 3k crits with any reliability without a shitload of damage gea - oh wait, 5/8 netherwind and 5/8 arcanist is a lot of damage gear! You see, I have a grand total of around +480 spell damage and my shadow bolt crits are ~2k with the AQ20 rank. There is no "solid spec" that gives 3k crits for any caster, that's just using ToEP/ZHC and Arcane Power/Power Infusion and getting a top-end crit with a lot of damage gear. I mean, I could say I've gotten 7k crits, but that's against shadow vulnerable drake talons/chrom and hardly representative of the rest of the raid game.
Of course, the point of all this is if blizzard had any sense whatsoever, int would add to offensive spell damage, and spirit would add to healing/shields (PW:S, mana shield, frost barrier) just like agi/str adds to attack power. Then at the very least, mage/warlock gear would be way way way more balanced with all the other DPS gear.
As it is now: A full set of the best damage gear for each slot for a caster can be outdone by 1-3 weapons on a hunter/rogue/warrior.
Of course, the point of all this is if blizzard had any sense whatsoever, int would add to offensive spell damage, and spirit would add to healing/shields (PW:S, mana shield, frost barrier) just like agi/str adds to attack power. Then at the very least, mage/warlock gear would be way way way more balanced with all the other DPS gear.
As it is now: A full set of the best damage gear for each slot for a caster can be outdone by 1-3 weapons on a hunter/rogue/warrior.
firex said:
You have more +dmg than me. And yeah, there is a solid spec that gives high damage output for mages. It's called 31 arcane, 20 fire. Without trinkets, and only using class spells and buffs, I can hit for some amazing things. Don't make me pull my magisters out of the bank and prove it.
Azwethinkweiz
Member
fallout said:
I bitch because it makes me feel better. I thought that's the only reason anyone bitches. Although it's more fun when others share your opinion and you can bitch together.
ok, so it's when you blow all of your cooldowns that you can crit for 3k, and that must be with pyroblast since it would otherwise take as much damage gear as I have (and I messed up on the total, I'm actually only at +444 right now cause I still haven't gotten spell power enchanted on my weapon) to get a crit like that with fireball. I was just making sure! If I use the ZHC I can crit for 2.5k pretty easily, ~3k if improved shadowbolt's debuff is still up. What's your AVERAGE damage without damage gear, though? Cause rogues/warriors/hunters can pull off big crits like that AND have good average damage using lesser gear (or just a great weapon). Average is a way better way to determine your damage and much more useful than saying "well, when I use all my cooldowns I can crit for 3k" to evaluate just how broken caster gear is. And my shadowbolts average for 900-950.
Of course, there are many many other problems with casters in addition to shitty gear, such as no real viable way to reduce their threat like feint/vanish/FD despite having worse survivability.
Of course, there are many many other problems with casters in addition to shitty gear, such as no real viable way to reduce their threat like feint/vanish/FD despite having worse survivability.
Draft said:
:lol WTF is up your ass man. Mages deal just as much damage in a raid as rogues do. The same is true with hunters or warlocks (if it is a boss fight). The DPS for my mage could easily compete with you and probably beat you.
The point is this. There is no one main DPS class anymore. Blizzard doesn't care about making a pure DPS or a pure healing class. They like hybrids and equality and that is what we are getting. By the time the expansion comes out, every class should be able to deal close to equal damage across the board. There is no "shouldn't" or "couldn't" when it comes to damage of any class in WoW anymore. THAT is Blizzard's motto with this game now.
pxleyes said:
You might be able to compete/beat most rogues, but then, you'd draw aggro and die or wipe the raid. Last I checked, that's a bad thing.
Also, mages "were" supposed to be burst dps for AOE, not single target. I wish blade flurry hit all targets around my character instead of just an additional one, but that'd be overpowered, right?
Hero said:
Fury warriors are known to outdps rogues in later instances. Due to the crazy scaling of rage and warrior gear and the less and less reliance on aggro (and aggro reducing trinkets/enchants) in instances, they overcome what a rogue can do in equal gear.
That's why you see a ton of rogues up in arms currently, and most likely why blizzard is reevaluating rage this upcoming patch.
Ferrio said:
Yeah, rogues need to scale. Supposedly Eviscerate and Garrote will do better numbers, but I hope it's based on weapon damage or attack power rather than a base number.
My point was that for most people playing the game, rogues should be on top of the dps meters. Assuming they play their class correctly of course.
Hero said:
Unfortunately that's what most people say, but Blizzard has never said this. With a class that has NO raid utility whatsoever, you think they'd have to be the best at hitting things.
Also don't know if it's suppose to scale next patch, in the preview it said the damage would be increased, what this means who knows.
Also, though the CM didn't outright say it... seems like expose armor might stack with sunder.
rage normalization would be stupid
and in my guild
we usually have rogues on top of the dps meters for boss fights, we have 2 r14 rogues in basically full t2 etc etc, and they do huge dmg
our r13 and r14 warriors (including myself) are usually top 5-10, depending on the fight, totems etc etc
well played rogues do huge dps, maybe your rogues suck or need to l2p?
and in my guild
we usually have rogues on top of the dps meters for boss fights, we have 2 r14 rogues in basically full t2 etc etc, and they do huge dmg
our r13 and r14 warriors (including myself) are usually top 5-10, depending on the fight, totems etc etc
well played rogues do huge dps, maybe your rogues suck or need to l2p?
I'm a little fuzzy on what "normalization" is, at least in terms an MMORPG.yacobod said:
In statistics it's taking a data set and making it fit a normal curve, right? So it essentially removes outliers? If rage were normalized, what does that mean? It generates more slowly, but more consistently? No huge boosts from big crits, but a bigger boost from normal hits?
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