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[pxleyes]

But you can see why the hordies are complaining, can't you? Overall alliance raid DPS is already higher than horde raid DPS, and now it's going to be even lower. Ideally they should be equal, so that progression among the two factions is equal.

You may think it's not much of a nerf, but it's a large psychological one. Call them emo if you want. Mocking the other side won't convince them of your point of view.

I guess this isn't going to be resolved - I'm talking about PvE progression while you keep bringing back the PvP aspect.

So does your guild have it, yes or no?

Eh, to be fair, I played totem bitch to a bunch of warriors in PvP - I'd drop windfury for them while they took out everyone in their path, and healed through the magic damage. Then the alliance started targeting me first and I dropped like a rock.

EDIT: I think we should be asking - what moronic warriors Hamstring-spams during PvP?

I still dont understand what would possibly buff alliance raid dps over horde. BoK is not that much of a buff to do so. What I mean by "if we have it" is that not every pally has it. Apparently you dont know this, but only a few pallys out there have BoK. Many dont because they dont want to go down that shitty tree. So while we can have 5 pallies in a raid, we are lucky to have 1 with BoK.

 

[cubicle47b]

If you look at the rogue spreadsheet I linked you can make adjustments to weapons, buffs, etc. and see the affect on AP, crit rate, etc. This is for combat daggers.

BoK is a small increase in DPS, slightly better than Strength of Earth. Windfury has to compete with the 222 attack power from improved blessing of might *and* windfury replaces the sharpening stone / poison on your main hand so you lose the damage from that. Under those circumstances, for a combat dagger rogue, the alliance rogue comes out on top by 11 dps or so. Not bad but windfury doesn't help hunters so they lose dps from not having grace of air (agility totem) or are moved to a different party and rogues lose true-shot aura.

This is in battles where threat isn't an issue and you can go all out. Things get a lot rougher on aggro sensitive encounters where blessing of salvation allows you to do 43% more damage without pulling aggro.

 

[Ryu]

I still dont understand what would possibly buff alliance raid dps over horde. BoK is not that much of a buff to do so. What I mean by "if we have it" is that not every pally has it. Apparently you dont know this, but only a few pallys out there have BoK. Many dont because they dont want to go down that shitty tree. So while we can have 5 pallies in a raid, we are lucky to have 1 with BoK.

That you do have it is the whole point... It's not like you need 5 Paladins all spec'd for it in order for the raid to take advantage of it - just 1. If we want healers to take advantage of mana tide, the shaman has to be in their 5-man group and have 31 talent points spec'd for it - not just 11 and it only stands for that 5-man group, not the entire raid.

As for why the more damage doesn't make sense to you... It's quite simple, 30% less threat means heavier DPS faster on mobs and raid bosses. In order for the Horde to get 20% (already 10 less than Alliance get) in an optimum DPS group (meaning all casters, no melee) the group has to be setup for it. That means 4 people, at maximum, benefit from the buff as long as one shaman is in the group. If you use Windfury or Grace of Air (+77 agility), you CANNOT use Tranquil Air as windfury, Tranquil Air, and Grace of Air are all on the same cooldown. You can only use one at a time unless you have two shamans in a group with 3 other melee attackers (as GoA and WF do not help mages or warlocks).

The entirety of an alliance RAID GROUP benefits from 4-5 Paladins being present in optimal conditions. 4-5 Shaman, in optimal conditions, can buff 16-20 people at most (since shamans do not gain any usefulness from a windfury, GoA, or Tranquil air TOTEMS).

Worse yet, this entire conversation is moot if you move out of range of the totem as the totem itself has a range issue and dissolves and needs to be redropped after a short period of time costing yet more mana.

Lets not forget mana regeneration here... A priest can literally wand back over 50 mana every second or two if they attack a mob with the proper judgement on it. With 2 paladins in the raid group, both judgements can be on a single mob so priests and DPS casters can wand back mana while melee heals itself every 2 seconds while attacking the same mob. Since Horde can't do that, our casters are forced to use dreamless sleep potions if they're working in a heal rotation...

I've said too much as it is... your argument is "omg, i got frost shocked, LOL nerf shamans" when really you're in the raid about to fight anub going "ok mages, after AOE'ing the bugs every 15-30 seconds, remember to wand back your mana, save on those pots and consumables! Lets kill em so i can get this drop off anub that might help me finally kill a shaman in WSG!"

 

[firex]

Considering pallys have to SPEC for it in the worst of their 3 trees, it isn't all that amazing. It is great to have in raids, yes, but when my guild doesn't have it (only a couple of pallys in the guild have it), it isn't breaking our damage or survivability.

Oh yeah, it really ****s them over for talents (not to mention prot has like the best pally damage talent in the game in it) since it costs 11 points to get.

If it weren't for the absolute awesomeness of illumination -> divine favor I'd go prot/ret right away, you can pull off the kind of burst dps that will make anyone cry.

Nutter: Border isn't really trashing the human pally choice as a bad class (at least I hope not - it's not for everyone, but if you like defense and survivability, and being able to solo elites with almost no difficulty, and have patience, you'll like it), it's just that human pally is super commonplace and pretty much a noob stereotype, similar to undead warlock/rogue and night elf anything but druid. There's really no reason to make a dwarf pally unless you just like dwarves as a race to the point that you want to ignore basically every human racial benefiting a pally.

 

[Mazre]

Test realms just went up.


First thing I notice is that ruthlessness is still a prereq for relentless strikes, unlike the talent calc indicated. Can't really test anything though have AQ40 right now.


Whee!


Edit: And of course the first pull is a shadowstorm/plague anubisath and I'm the first person plagued.

 

[Ferrio]

HOLY SHIT! I JUST GOT THE BIGGEST SURPRISE!

I log onto the test server...and look what I find

 

[Mazre]

Hehe, just heard about that. Pretty significant buff to Thunderfury.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Heh you still have lifestealing on it.

 

[Ferrio]

Heh you still have lifestealing on it.

Big lifestealing fan. Though with scaling evis, that's going to change.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I am not being a dick. You guys are being completely unreasonable and you aren't seeing why it was nerfed. You dont acknowledge that it was over-powered, and when it does get nerfed, you offer up no other solution than "we are useless, I am quitting."

Shaman raid viability is the only thing that has really changed. I talked to a few people I know in high end-game horde guilds, and they bring only a couple of shamans now as is. They seem to think they are more of a burden than an asset. So I really dont think this patch will do much in the way of hurting the horde as a whole, but maybe the ability for a shaman to claim why he should be allowed in a raid.

It wasn't overpowered. It was the one thing which helped balance Horde Raid DPS with Alliance DPS.

Furthermore, look on the EJ boards - a lot of alliance/horde guilds posted up their DPS meters to compare overall raid damage output, and guess what - things were even. I mean, with pally buffs - mages & warlocks pump out more dps as do hunters (mana pool), whereas the only true plus Horde had was with warriors who benefitted a lot from windfury. With rogues it depended on how you specced AFAIK.

Now, with the windfury nerf, things are going to be blown out of proportion in all aspects. Finally, the class I play is SHAMAN, so why shouldn't I be upset when they nerf the one unique aspect my class can provide in a raid to utter oblivion?

 

[Sirpopopop]

The shaman response is becoming beyond laughable. WF was overpowered to begin with and needed to be dealt with. Horde are going way over board on this and it's getting out of hand. The nerf isn't something that is going to be chagned, so it has to be dealt with. I know shamans never get nerfs, but this is what it feels like. You get used to it and before you know it, it is back to normal playing like nothing changed. The only ones who should complain are the other horde classes, but when yo uhad such an overpowered ability slapped on you in raids like, it does need to be brought back for faction balance as well as just damage balance.

Show me all those Horde raid guilds which are kicking ass in Naxxramas???

I'm looking for at least 50 of em, because that would at least suggest some faction balance.

As for nerfs - Shaman PVE was so pathetic in the first place that any nerf to it would pretty much reduce the need for a shaman from marginally useful to nearly useless.

 

[SaitoH]

HOLY SHIT! I JUST GOT THE BIGGEST SURPRISE!

I log onto the test server...and look what I find

Wow, it's One-hand now. Nice!

 

[pxleyes]

Show me all those Horde raid guilds which are kicking ass in Naxxramas???

I'm looking for at least 50 of em, because that would at least suggest some faction balance.

As for nerfs - Shaman PVE was so pathetic in the first place that any nerf to it would pretty much reduce the need for a shaman from marginally useful to nearly useless.

No, just no. That way of comparing factions is just complete bullshit. You cant take into account the number of horde or alliance guilds period, and take into account the quality of said players across factions.

Compare this, the farthest alliance and farthest horde guild in naxx. If they are close or competing for progress, then there is no imbalance. A lack of quality players doesn't cahnge the fact that is is more than possible for a horde guild to clear Naxx.

 

[Gattsu25]

pxleyes: "racism doesn't exist"

 

[Ryu]

Thanks for ignoring my post - possibly because you actually didn't know anything that I posted in there in regards to Shamans?

Compare this, the farthest alliance and farthest horde guild in naxx. If they are close or competing for progress, then there is no imbalance. A lack of quality players doesn't cahnge the fact that is is more than possible for a horde guild to clear Naxx.

Who said it was impossible? No one is stating as much. However, there's nothing "beyond laughable" about this nerf or the enrage of the Horde community - and it is the Horde community, not just the Shaman community. Hell, a good chunk of your own faction states this is ridiculous and unwarranted.

How's that sand feel, anyways? Nice having your head buried in it?

 

[firex]

ugh, pxleyes is the absolute stereotype of the Alliance mage from beta: no matter what happens, if it doesn't make the game easier for them, they bitch about it.

 

[Sirpopopop]

No, just no. That way of comparing factions is just complete bullshit. You cant take into account the number of horde or alliance guilds period, and take into account the quality of said players across factions.

Compare this, the farthest alliance and farthest horde guild in naxx. If they are close or competing for progress, then there is no imbalance. A lack of quality players doesn't cahnge the fact that is is more than possible for a horde guild to clear Naxx.

Actually it does because in order to compete maybe that one guild is willing to invest extra on pots or has more skill than all but the best alliance guilds (Read: Top 5), plus had other factors helping it.

Take C'thun for example, a Horde guild got the first on it only because they had an extra day to work on it while Alliance did not. After the horde guild got its first, the next 10 or so kills were alliance. Based upon numbers, how does this work?

If that Horde guild didn't have the day advantage no way would they have cracked the Top 10. Heck, I don't think they even cracked the top 10 for Ouro...

Now, if you are talking Naxx no Horde guild has gotten a worldwide first yet. There have been Horde guilds keeping up with the Alliance, but they have only done so because they have the resources to spend loads and loads of cash on pots. This is something which many other top Horde guilds cannot afford to do.

Really, is it balanced to expect the horde to spend wads of cash on pots on a level higher than Alliance guilds (See EJ having to pot up fully in order to compete on the damage meters with Alliance guilds on Patchwerk) in order to keep pace with them?

I say no.




Also, what about disputing those findings on the EJ website? hmmm...

 

[fallout]

ugh, pxleyes is the absolute stereotype of the Alliance mage from beta: no matter what happens, if it doesn't make the game easier for them, they bitch about it.

I dunno, I kept trying to correct him on his shaman knowledge and he kept ignoring me. People see the word "windfury" and their ****ing eyes light up.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Whether or not the Windfury nerf was needed or balanced or anything isn't as big an issue as the fact that this nerf was very poorly timed in terms of how the raider playerbase is reacting to the new challenges in Naxxramus and the aftermath of the Shaman review in 1.11.

Maybe Blizzard knows something about the way fury warriors were going to scale when dual-wielding Naxx weapons and having Naxx DPS plate, who really knows. The change seems really out of touch and one of those kind of "ivory tower" decisions that lead designers make in the game that everyone kinda resents and no one really understands because it doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[ToyMachine228]

I log onto the test server...and look what I find

Yeah, I just got word of that. I already have one of the bindings too. I'm definitely considering it a lot more now. A Chromatically Tempered/Thunderfury combo would be so amazing.

 

[Drensch]

Explain to me how I can be Mind controlled, and forced off a bridge, But if I fear, it wont do the same? And what the cool down on that 5 seconds? And you can do it mid combat? Thats complete bs.


In the last week Blizzard has really pissed me off with retarded decisions. It lets a monster guild migrate all its shit to our server and destroy the balance in wsg.
So in essence, what can happen, is you get all your toys and take them to a weaker server to prey on players there? How about no player migrations? Servers should never get too crowded or any bs like that's Blizzard's job to manage population, cut it off at a certain point.


Something else they should prohibit is having an ally and a horde char on the same server. There are players that will actively **** with faction with same server alts.

 

[tehjaybo]

Something else they should prohibit is having an ally and a horde char on the same server. There are players that will actively **** with faction with same server alts.

On PVP servers, you can't do this. Your fault for rolling on a Normal server. They suck, no fun to be had. Completely drains the fun out of the rogue class. :lol

Then again, there are a few on my server who have bought second accounts to have both alliance and horde characters. They're usually the more "well known" characters from my server. Nightz, a former High Warlord, and Madmaxo, who was always known for his OEB and boner for ganking people. :lol I knew them before they got alliance characters from talking to them on Vent, and they're cool guys.. so I don't see anything wrong with it really. I mean, what's the most they can do, send you a tell and say "OMFG PWNED!1!" If you don't like it, /ignore

 

[Mute]

Woot, just hit Warlord. Sadly, the gear isn't much better than the compilation of the old blue set and Defiler's Pauldrons. My atk power didn't move, nor did my crit. However I have more HP, Mana, and Spell Dmg/Crit. 3 more weeks and I'm done

 

[yacobod]

ya i was a little disappointed when warriors wearing a few pieces of the r10 set and other pvp gear rewards were running around with the same crit % and AP as i had

the only area where the r13 set typically wins out is in terms of HP pool, and maybe AC

they buffed the r10 sets too much imo

 

[SyNapSe]

Woot, just hit Warlord. Sadly, the gear isn't much better than the compilation of the old blue set and Defiler's Pauldrons. My atk power didn't move, nor did my crit. However I have more HP, Mana, and Spell Dmg/Crit. 3 more weeks and I'm done

how do you do it. I hit 60 a couple of weeks back.. ran some instances, etc. I'm just not much into raiding.. I've been 60 before. So, I decided I'd make a new goal of getting to Rank 10 for the whole set.

I got 180k CP and it appears from the WoW site that I didn't even move from Rank 5 to 6. I thought it wasn't supposed to get tough until Rank 7.. geez.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I got 180k CP and it appears from the WoW site that I didn't even move from Rank 5 to 6. I thought it wasn't supposed to get tough until Rank 7.. geez."

The WoW PVP listings aren't updated quite as fast as they are in-game.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

how do you do it. I hit 60 a couple of weeks back.. ran some instances, etc. I'm just not much into raiding.. I've been 60 before. So, I decided I'd make a new goal of getting to Rank 10 for the whole set.

I got 180k CP and it appears from the WoW site that I didn't even move from Rank 5 to 6. I thought it wasn't supposed to get tough until Rank 7.. geez.

I dunno either; it's definately tied into having balanced factions with varied opponents, (noobest PUGs to the cream of the crop teams). This WSG weekend was a huge boost; I think I got double KH from 2/3 the time (I played decoy in the midfield. NO ONE in tier 2 can resist getting a gank on a Valor Shoulder-sporting Warrior). :lol

 

[tehjaybo]

NO ONE in tier 2 can resist getting a gank on a Valor Shoulder-sporting Warrior). :lol

Are you kidding? I can.


..... I can.


.........I can.


[pops trinkets, POM Pyroblast]


......Damnit....

 

[pxleyes]

I've spoken with the developers and they let me know that they're not satisfied with the impact the windfury totem change is having on current end-game content balance, and plan to undo the change. Please remember that the testing phase of any patch is precisely to test such changes and evaluate their possible impact on the game, whether or not they eventually go into the final release build.

In short, no change to Windfury Totem is planned at this time.

Sucking on the Blizzard tit pays off. Grats.

 

[Tamanon]

Rein it back some, dumbass. If the horde stop playing, then it'll mean even longer PvP queues!

I don't see a problem with leaving it the way it is really. Although they should at least take Hamstring off the Windfury list

 

[pxleyes]

Rein it back some, dumbass. If the horde stop playing, then it'll mean even longer PvP queues!

I don't see a problem with leaving it the way it is really. Although they should at least take Hamstring off the Windfury list

horde stop playing? no, it was simply whining till they got what they wanted. It happens every patch cycle with one or more classes. They call claim they are quitting, then they either dont, or Blizzard gives in.

 

[Howard Alan Treesong]

horde stop playing? no, it was simply whining till they got what they wanted. It happens every patch cycle with one or more classes. They call claim they are quitting, then they either dont, or Blizzard gives in.

Well, if we played Alliance, we'd get what we want without having to ask.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Show me all those Horde raid guilds which are kicking ass in Naxxramas???

I'm looking for at least 50 of em, because that would at least suggest some faction balance.

It's not Blizzard's fault that no one picks Horde.

 

[explodet]

It's not Blizzard's fault that no one picks Horde.

Sure it is.

(one line statements FTW)

 

[ToyMachine228]

Nightz, a former High Warlord, and Madmaxo

I've always respected Vempire on our server quite a bit. I've talked to him on vent, and he always manages to own me. When I do get the kill on him, it makes it that much more glorious.

 

[pxleyes]

Well, if we played Alliance, we'd get what we want without having to ask.

:lol

 

[fallout]

Sucking on the Blizzard tit pays off. Grats.

:lol WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?!

 

[pxleyes]

:lol WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?!

I love watching you all squirrmmmmmmm

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Sure it is.

(one line statements FTW)

I'm not sure why you'd need me to extrapolate more on that.

 

[explodet]

I'm not sure why you'd need me to extrapolate more on that.

I don't need you to, but this is a Discussion Forum on the Internet™ and I figured it would encourage discussion if you explained why you felt that Blizzard didn't intend to design the game to end up with the current population schism.

Although that may be an error, I remember how you feel towards shamans!

So post, or don't; it's all good.

 

[cubicle47b]

I love watching you all squirrmmmmmmm

I don't think anyone squirms because of some ignorant jackass on an internet message board but w/e.


I did quit, BTW. There were more factors involved than just the PVE imbalance, for sure, but it helped. Maybe I'll find time for Rome: Total War now.

 

[Tamanon]

I don't think anyone squirms because of some ignorant jackass on an internet message board but w/e.


I did quit, BTW. There were more factors involved than just the PVE imbalance, for sure, but it helped. Maybe I'll find time for Rome: Total War now.

See ya when the expansion hits

 

[fallout]

I love watching you all squirrmmmmmmm

I'm not squirming, just confused as to how someone could be so bitter about something that doesn't even affect them.

 

[pxleyes]

I don't think anyone squirms because of some ignorant jackass on an internet message board but w/e.


I did quit, BTW. There were more factors involved than just the PVE imbalance, for sure, but it helped. Maybe I'll find time for Rome: Total War now.

single tear for the whiner.

 

[cubicle47b]

See ya when the expansion hits

Possibly, but I really doubt it. Raiding / theorycraft was the only thing that kept me interested in the game at the end and farming BWL quickly become a chore as did AQ40 (I never actually made it to the Twin Emps though, we killed Huhuran really late last monday and didn't have time for the trash). I'd probably have to transfer servers anyway because we had an extremely low horde population on my server and I don't know how long my guild will survive and it's the only horde guild that was worth being a member of.

single tear for the whiner.

Oh yeah, I'm the only one who did any whining in this thread. Or did you forget all your posts when Blizzard initially announced the 1.11 changes. Maybe these quotes will refresh your memory.

id like to see an admission that mages are gimped compared to most any class that can do similar spells or actions. we have no clear place in either pvp or pve anymore.

So now the difference becomes clear, as mages are no longer as useful as basically any other class anymore beyond providing water, intellect, and AoE which can be done in most instances just as well by other classes.

there is also a line between customer service and ass ****ing. I dont think you can find it. You realize people PAY to play this game right? Customer service should be a part of that. As much as you will trivialize it to a videogame for your own purposes (I'm still under the assumption you play it too), it doesn't justify this kind of treatment.

And you still bring up being a poor defenseless trinket mage in PVP who can only kill someone every 3 minutes. Aw, QQ more.

 

[pxleyes]

Possibly, but I really doubt it. Raiding / theorycraft was the only thing that kept me interested in the game at the end and farming BWL quickly become a chore as did AQ40 (I never actually made it to the Twin Emps though, we killed Huhuran really late last monday and didn't have time for the trash). I'd probably have to transfer servers anyway because we had an extremely low horde population on my server and I don't know how long my guild will survive and it's the only horde guild that was worth being a member of.





Oh yeah, I'm the only one who did any whining in this thread. Or did you forget all your posts when Blizzard initially announced the 1.11 changes. Maybe these quotes will refresh your memory.







And you still bring up being a poor defenseless trinket mage in PVP who can only kill someone every 3 minutes. Aw, QQ more.

I never stated I didn't whine during the mage review, and there are still some major issues with mages. However, I dont go so far as to quit the game oever it because there is a lot more to the game than just my viability in raids for pvp. I guess that isn't in it for you, so just leave this thread and the game.

 

[cubicle47b]

Nah, I think I'll stick around for a while and watch you lash out at the shaman class because you get owned in PVP.

 

[Sirpopopop]

It's not Blizzard's fault that no one picks Horde.

If Blizzard made Horde appealing people would pick it.

 

[Tamanon]

Blizzard did make horde appealing, but unfortunately since the game has gone mainstream, it's not appealing to the majority of mainstream players. Hopefully the Blood Elves will at least change that a little bit, I think it'll swing a wee bit towards the horde, but there's so many alliance that it can't really ever make it to even.

If WoW was only constrained to the normal MMORPG players, balance would be 60/40 alliance at worse. "Unfortunately" a ton of casuals jumped on.

 

[Mute]

how do you do it. I hit 60 a couple of weeks back.. ran some instances, etc. I'm just not much into raiding.. I've been 60 before. So, I decided I'd make a new goal of getting to Rank 10 for the whole set.

I got 180k CP and it appears from the WoW site that I didn't even move from Rank 5 to 6. I thought it wasn't supposed to get tough until Rank 7.. geez.

Hah. I've actually done surprisingly well, I've ranked up at least once a week since Rank 4 other than 9 to 10 and 11 to 12. Well, 12 to 13 as well of course. Only 3 more weeks..it's actually my friends account, but I play it a lot. I really think it is physically impossible for one man to get High Warlord on his own. If he does though, major props to him, he must have no life whatsoever.

Ohh and guild got Chrommagus down to 33% last night, was our first time fighting him. Not bad at all considering we're now 1 week old.