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World of Warcraft

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border

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yacobod said:
ya 1v1 that might be the case

but in arenas or in bgs, with paladin supporting with BOFs and cleanses, or priests with dispells, the warrior is pretty much immune to cc
Which is why I said "Don't let the heals go off". CC the healer and the warrior goes down really fast. Most groups are relatively stupid though, and let the warrior get healed through all the CC and DPS. Most BG groups are stupid pugs that won't heal the warriors anyway....so we're talking only about scenarios with an organized group where warriors are a big factor (premade BGs, arenas). Which is fine, but I wouldn't call them "the god class" for having an edge in just that particularly selective scenario.

It's the only thing that really makes sense considering Kalgan literally designs every single thing around "how will this make warriors better," even when it comes to other classes.
I have no idea where you are getting this from. There was at least 1-year straight where warriors took nothing but nerfs in every single patch....even the 2.0 patch that had every other class getting buffed was the Rage nerf. To say that the game has been designed around improving warriors is a little ridiculous.
 

firex

Member
You could sub in any other class for raids except a warrior really. Until 2.0 nobody could tank (really, don't give any bullshit about feral druids because it required insane epics) except a warrior either. All the raid content was (and still is) designed around having a warrior tank it, too. I guess I should've just said Kalgan designs everything around warriors, not around making them better.

Bitch about old nerfs all you want, cause you still didn't get raped from release like the shaman did, where it steadily decreased into a complete and total joke. A lot of people whined about warrior dps until they realized what everyone in beta was quick enough to pick up on: that AP was broken and easily made up for shortcomings with actual skills themselves.

The point of the matter is, warriors were (and still are) way too important to the success of raids. At least they aren't a requirement to tank instances anymore...
 

border

Member
Bitch about old nerfs all you want, cause you still didn't get raped from release like the shaman did, where it steadily decreased into a complete and total joke.
I'm not bitching about old nerfs. You said that everything was designed around "how will this make warriors better," and I submit 12-18 months' worth of nerfs on every single patch as evidence that Blizzard spent a lot of time toning down the class. Maybe it was totally appropriate in a number of instances. It just seems ridiculous to think that they've spent the entire life of the game buffing warriors, when most of the time they've been reducing warriors' capability for damage output.....as well as buffing other classes to make their tanking ability comparable to that of a warrior (thus diminishing the need for a warrior in all but high-end raid encounters).

The point of the matter is, warriors were (and still are) way too important to the success of raids. At least they aren't a requirement to tank instances anymore...
At worst you'd need 1 warrior for main tank and 1 for off-tanking. Is it that terrible to have to reserve 2 out of 25 raid slots for a specific class? How is that "way too important"?

Isn't the advantage that warriors get offset somewhat by the fact that few raid leaders will consider bringing many DPS warriors to a group? Sure, there's 1-2 tanking slots available for warriors, but beyond that most groups would rather have a high DPS caster or rogue than a DPS warrior that causes extra strain on the healers. It's not outrageous to bring 4-5 mages into a raid dungeon, but to bring that many warriors would be pretty rare (unless there were no druids/pallies for big trash pulls).
 

firex

Member
Pretty much any nerf warriors got after the dire maul patch was because of something that was genuinely overpowered (like intimidating shout's target limit, or the rage generation, even though they ****ed that one up at first). It's not like they completely raped your class down like they did to shamans since release.

Anyway, dps warriors still contribute a lot to a raid's dps. Especially for other warriors, enhance shamans (all 1 of them brought on a raid), rogues and hunters (unless the arms talent only affects melee damage). Healing is pretty much a dumb argument because they're going to be in the same spot as the rogues (unless they're retarded) and will actually require less healing since they have more armor.

It's just bullshit that warriors are the only viable raid tank. There's not much in the way of 25 man stuff that a non-warrior can tank, because druids/pallies don't have all the tools a warrior has, and that's by far the worst thing about the class balance if you ask me.

It's not like warriors are the undisputed kings of WoW like they were pre-2.0, and they have a talent setup that's almost as bad as paladins in how it so sharply divides your abilities (it's just that 2 trees are dps and one is tanking vs 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 dps). I just don't think it's fair that there's only one real raid tank and it's the warrior. I've actually tanked a lot of stuff in kara on my pally, but I doubt I'd ever, ever be able to tank even gruul's lair, much less SSC or TK. Even if I had the undisputed best tanking gear available.

I don't think anybody knows how shitty the pally is unless they play one at 70. If you don't like being a healbot, it's a tough road for raiding (or instancing in general) and raids are incredibly one-sided in favor of healer gear anyway. I'd go more in-depth about how the pally tanking system sucks (it's more than capable of holding threat, but it's harder to heal a pally tank than any other, and the taunt's pretty meh) but that's really for another post.

I probably shouldn't have said Kalgan is a retarded warrior-lover who ignores classes with far more serious problems to focus on his favorite class (although at this point, that could also be warlocks, and it's true nonetheless), but I'm still pretty bitter about the pre-2.0 world, since post-2.0 isn't really any better for my pally. And I blame warriors, because I came from a guild with the most asshattish warriors I have ever seen (95% of them were complete and total pricks and crybabies, and the ones that weren't quit because they didn't like the shitty attitude of the others) so it's like vicariously telling them to **** off for all the times I didn't.

edit: I should add that if a pally/druid were capable of MTing raids as well as warriors can, warriors would still be awesome to take along as a dps spec because they deal extremely respectable dps and are far more durable than a rogue or enhance shaman. They don't provide necessarily awesome buffs for a raid like shamans/feral druids, but they're also more than likely going to outdps them by a large margin.
 

yacobod

Banned
Maxrpg said:
Deep Thunder??

Sword spec Lionheart Champion. My warrior buddy just smashes through anyone.


deep thunder is the best out of the 3 crafted epics for pvp, it has the slowest speed (more white dmg), has the highest top end (bigger crits), has 52 stam (as much as the arena season 2 wpns), and has an approx 18% chance to stun targets, you pretty much pwn casters with this thing
 

yacobod

Banned
firex said:
Pretty much any nerf warriors got after the dire maul patch was because of something that was genuinely overpowered

i still think the enrage nerf from 40% to 25% was bullshit, and i don't like how deathwish + enrage no longer stacks

firex said:
It's not like warriors are the undisputed kings of WoW like they were pre-2.0


i'd hate to break it to you but warriors are much more powerful now then they were pre-expansion in pvp, i think i have a good frame of reference for comparison as my warrior pre-xpac was among the best geared on my old server, and currently my warrior is pretty well geared as well

my warrior has just under 12k unbuffed hp, 1470 unbuffed ap, 31% to crit in zerk stance, 330 resilience, and 35% chance to resist stuns, with the new pvp trinket, i have a chance to kill any class 1v1, this wasnt the case pre-xpac

pre-xpac mages, shadow priests, locks, and good rogues could pwn warriors 1v1, rogues no longer have a chance, MS + deathwish rips up shadow priests, locks can be tricky but now that you can trinket out of deathcoil they are much easier, the toughest opponent for warriors now are deep frost mages
 

Ramirez

Member
A warrior with the Lionheart sword + heroism and windfury is ****ing insane...I played my friends war for a while and he played my shaman, and we would roll through people, but the downside to that group compared to a Pally is that Shamans are a lot easier to kill off sometimes.
 
He has nice gear but fails at socketing. A +8 defense rating gem when you already have 557 defense? Someone needs to tell him that stacking defense above 490 is a really inefficient way of adding mitigation.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
My friends in town play this now (didnt know that) but they play Ally. What's a good class to pair up with a Draenei? They look pretty pimp.

btw, I like my Blood Elf Mage. Only lvl 6 thus far, but fun stuff. :D
 

firex

Member
border said:
They can contribute, but for whatever reason they are always second or third choice behind ranged DPS.
I think that's just dumb reasoning by most raid leaders. Similar to how they're stuck in old pre-expansion thinking and don't want shadow priests, non-resto shamans, etc. I mean, if I was forming up a raid, I'd have like at least one dps warrior slot, maybe two (or a dps offtank spec) depending upon if they ever make druids/pallies capable of OTing/MTing stuff without crazy gear.

It's kind of crazy anyway, there's just barely not enough slots to accomodate one of every class/spec on a 25 man (although I guess spec isn't as huge a deal with most dps classes). So theoretically, if all specs were equal in their usefulness, raids could (and maybe should) have a dps warrior or two.

Oh and Kintaro, if you want a recommendation for draenei classes... mage, shaman (although they are pretty weak in pvp), priest... I think any draenei class works well to be honest. I was surprised how good my draenei shaman was in the expansion beta. Priest seems pretty good though, because they get probably the best racial spells, and you can legitimately play a shadow priest now and be a dpser.
 

firex

Member
Mike G.E.D. said:
After seeing this video, I take back my previous statements about paladins not being able to maintank Mag, SSC and TK. :O

http://files.filefront.com/mh-the_tankadin-mid-red.wmv/;7895033;/fileinfo.html

His gear is out of control, too.

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodscalp&n=Linadillar
That video is awesome and gives me hope (although I'd still go retnoob if they made it viable and I knew some tanks), even though my gear is way worse than this guy's. Well, aside from the cloak.
 

Draft

Member
border said:
They can contribute, but for whatever reason they are always second or third choice behind ranged DPS.
There's no reason a DPS warrior can't top the charts, except for threat. Not only does he lack any active threat reduction, he's in melee range and doesn't get that sweet -30% to threat that ranged guys do.

Assuming threat is not an issue, there's no reason a DPS warrior can't hit 1200 DPS in good gear, with a shaman.
 

firex

Member
they get a threat reduction for going into berserker stance from what I've seen. It puts them at the same kind of threat generation as a rogue/cat druid.
 

Draft

Member
firex said:
they get a threat reduction for going into berserker stance from what I've seen. It puts them at the same kind of threat generation as a rogue/cat druid.
Active, like feint, fade, vanish or ice block. A warriors only active aggro reducer is a soulstone :lol Berserker is a flat 10% reduction, I believe rogues and cats have a flat 20%.
 

firex

Member
oh, active. yeah, I could see that, if it was berserker stance only or something. kinda funny that the one class with a billion +threat stuff has no -threat.
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
I'm level 61 and am getting a bit pissed off. No one wants a shaman in their group, what little groups ever do Ramparts or Blood Furnace anymore. Even if I were to switch to Resto I'd be bumped for druids, priests, and paladins.
 

unifin

Member
Wellington said:
I'm level 61 and am getting a bit pissed off. No one wants a shaman in their group, what little groups ever do Ramparts or Blood Furnace anymore. Even if I were to switch to Resto I'd be bumped for druids, priests, and paladins.

Your server must have some kind of bias. As a level 70 enhancement shaman I don't have much problem getting into groups...

OutDPSed the lock and the fire mage in a pug botanica run yesterday... good stuff.
 

fallout

Member
unifin said:
Your server must have some kind of bias. As a level 70 enhancement shaman I don't have much problem getting into groups...

OutDPSed the lock and the fire mage in a pug botanica run yesterday... good stuff.
And let's not forget your added value with totems totems TOTEMS!

Seriously though, bloodlust, totems, the ability to support heal. I ran Steamvault one time when I was still enh. The paladin fell off the platform into the water on a terrible pull. I quickly slapped on my healing mace and shield, and just spammed chain heal while instructing everyone to stay close and on multiple targets until the paladin could make it back up. Worked beautifully. I was nearly OOM when the Paladin came back about a minute later and we just started working down most of the remaining mobs.
 

firex

Member
My shaman friend was enhance since 2.0, then went back to resto just recently (after I went prot on my pally, so we'd have a healer + tank since my server seems devoid of tanks) and with his healer gear, even as enhance, he could heal really well for a backup healer. And he still did tons of dps.
 

unifin

Member
fallout said:
And let's not forget your added value with totems totems TOTEMS!

Seriously though, bloodlust, totems, the ability to support heal. I ran Steamvault one time when I was still enh. The paladin fell off the platform into the water on a terrible pull. I quickly slapped on my healing mace and shield, and just spammed chain heal while instructing everyone to stay close and on multiple targets until the paladin could make it back up. Worked beautifully. I was nearly OOM when the Paladin came back about a minute later and we just started working down most of the remaining mobs.

I have several similar stories, where the healer draws aggro and dies unexpectedly and I heal through the last 10 % of a boss's health bar or so - I frequently find myself offhealing a bit on trash mobs if the mage is getting beat on, etc.

Rogues love me because I buff them out the wazoo.
 

fallout

Member
unifin said:
I have several similar stories, where the healer draws aggro and dies unexpectedly and I heal through the last 10 % of a boss's health bar or so - I frequently find myself offhealing a bit on trash mobs if the mage is getting beat on, etc.
Yep. I've done it many times as well. It's probably one of my favourite things about the class, especially while I was leveling.

Rogues love me because I buff them out the wazoo.
:lol Yeah, bloodlust + WF == hot rogue love. I love timing it with a 5 point slice and dice, just for the laughter over vent.
 

MrToughPants

Brian Burke punched my mom
ZombieSupaStar said:
so did they nerf potions in WoW, now you can only have 1 offense and food counts also?

Would you like to unlearn your profession?

Yes unlearn Alchemy.

:lol

Transmute still rocks
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
fallout said:
Yep. I've done it many times as well. It's probably one of my favourite things about the class, especially while I was leveling.
So true. A Shaman's best weapon of choice is it's versatility and the fact when things go very wrong it will stand strong and (usually) keep everything running till everyone goes back into machine mode. Even if there is a wipe, we can always reincarnate :D
 

Fularu

Banned
firex said:
Pretty much any nerf warriors got after the dire maul patch was because of something that was genuinely overpowered (like intimidating shout's target limit, or the rage generation, even though they ****ed that one up at first). It's not like they completely raped your class down like they did to shamans since release.

Anyway, dps warriors still contribute a lot to a raid's dps. Especially for other warriors, enhance shamans (all 1 of them brought on a raid), rogues and hunters (unless the arms talent only affects melee damage). Healing is pretty much a dumb argument because they're going to be in the same spot as the rogues (unless they're retarded) and will actually require less healing since they have more armor.

It's just bullshit that warriors are the only viable raid tank. There's not much in the way of 25 man stuff that a non-warrior can tank, because druids/pallies don't have all the tools a warrior has, and that's by far the worst thing about the class balance if you ask me.

It's not like warriors are the undisputed kings of WoW like they were pre-2.0, and they have a talent setup that's almost as bad as paladins in how it so sharply divides your abilities (it's just that 2 trees are dps and one is tanking vs 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 dps). I just don't think it's fair that there's only one real raid tank and it's the warrior. I've actually tanked a lot of stuff in kara on my pally, but I doubt I'd ever, ever be able to tank even gruul's lair, much less SSC or TK. Even if I had the undisputed best tanking gear available.

I don't think anybody knows how shitty the pally is unless they play one at 70. If you don't like being a healbot, it's a tough road for raiding (or instancing in general) and raids are incredibly one-sided in favor of healer gear anyway. I'd go more in-depth about how the pally tanking system sucks (it's more than capable of holding threat, but it's harder to heal a pally tank than any other, and the taunt's pretty meh) but that's really for another post.

I probably shouldn't have said Kalgan is a retarded warrior-lover who ignores classes with far more serious problems to focus on his favorite class (although at this point, that could also be warlocks, and it's true nonetheless), but I'm still pretty bitter about the pre-2.0 world, since post-2.0 isn't really any better for my pally. And I blame warriors, because I came from a guild with the most asshattish warriors I have ever seen (95% of them were complete and total pricks and crybabies, and the ones that weren't quit because they didn't like the shitty attitude of the others) so it's like vicariously telling them to **** off for all the times I didn't.

edit: I should add that if a pally/druid were capable of MTing raids as well as warriors can, warriors would still be awesome to take along as a dps spec because they deal extremely respectable dps and are far more durable than a rogue or enhance shaman. They don't provide necessarily awesome buffs for a raid like shamans/feral druids, but they're also more than likely going to outdps them by a large margin.

The amount of QQ In that post is mind boggling, not to mention that you obviously don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

Druids and Pallies can MT everything alliance side and everything *but* nightbane and Archimonde horde side. They have the itemization, they have the talents and they have the tools. What they need is people with open minds.

Also most DPS warriors are just rogues in plate, they have about the same amount of HP, maybe a little bit more AC but in the end, if they are stupid enough to pull agro, they'll get one-shotted.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Fularu said:
What they need is people with open minds.
But how many serious end-game guilds are open minded to this notion of Druid and Paladin tanks? Especially with those run by the GM who happens to be a Prot Warrior :|
 

Fularu

Banned
I'm a prot warrior, I'm also the raid leader (not the GM), yet my raids always feature 2 prot wars, two ferals and a prot pally.

They are all usefull in their own way in almost every single fight that we have done so far. Sure I MT most of the time, but I've offered them more than once to tank, I have no qualms about it whatsoever.

On the other hand, I'm tanking (and have been for a long time) most of the stuff that's supposed ot be the druid field :p (Maulgar, Magtheridon, Gruul and so on, the slow, hard hitting bosses that can burst for 20k)
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Quick question: Mining/Skinning. Best early profession money makers? Would love to explore the other professions, but seems these two are best are easy, good gold sooner rather than later to get things up and running. Am I correct?
 

firex

Member
herbs are as good as mining, although depending upon your server they can take a little bit longer. But you'll rake in even more gold as you progress.
 

Draft

Member
ZombieSupaStar said:
so did they nerf potions in WoW, now you can only have 1 offense and food counts also?
Yes, they "nerfed" potions.

Potions work the same as before.

Elixirs are separated into Guardian and Battle catagories- you can only have one of each active at any time. Flasks count as guardian AND battle elixirs, so you can only have one active at any time. So you can have:

a. 1 guardian elixir
b. 1 battle elixir
c. 1 guardian and 1 battle elixir
d. 1 flask

Food does not count towards any of that stuff, though I do believe food buffs now override booze buffs (ie- no more chimeric chops and gor'dok brew, only one or the other.)

Flask's overall effectiveness was nerfed, as was their ingredient requirements. This was done because they were straight overpowered. At the highend, they were no longer a nice buff, they were absolutely necessary. If you were taking on the Twin Emps or basically anything in Naxx, you had to be flasked up. It wasn't optional. That's no longer the case. In fact, generally a battle and guardian elixir >>> a flask, except the flask lasts through death. So flasks are cheaper and better for wipe nights, and elixirs are stronger and better for first kills.

Alchemist since day one :lol
 
So when the eff are they going to make Engineering any good? Blizz have come out and said they are going to 'fix' it haven't they? good helm plans don't fix it, the problem is at the core of it. Something like Goblin Rocket boots or half the trinkets are neat little additions, but not worth putting in at any time other than ducking around Ironforge.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Most servers have a stack of copper up towards the 50s-1g buyout area and they get snapped up pretty quickly. I usually just ran around the outer edge of Mulgore and grabbed at least 4-5 stacks if I needed the money.
 

mikeGFG

Banned
Okay so I want to start building a DPS set for my Paladin. Mostly to PVP or occassionally lend a hand when my OT Warrior needs to maintank something. Where do I start?

Attack Power? Strength? Agility? Crit Rating?... Spell Damage?

Does anyone have a good configuration of Armor and Weapons I can get from 5-Mans, Heroics and Repuation Rewards? And especially the type of enchants I should be getting?

Thanks.
 

firex

Member
border said:
Since the Alchemy nerf, Herbalism is nerfed by default as well. I would do mining if you want a gathering profession.
Yeah, but I haven't been able to sell any outland ore really. I mean, thorium way way way outsells fel iron/adamantite by a huge margin.
 

fallout

Member
firex said:
Yeah, but I haven't been able to sell any outland ore really. I mean, thorium way way way outsells fel iron/adamantite by a huge margin.
Yeah, nobody wants to go back, heh. I've never seen Winterspring so amazingly dead. It was like a farmer's paradise. The only issue is that you can't really flood the market, since it's not in huge demand, or anything ... but for the people that do want it, well, they have to pay big time.

And yes, Outland ore isn't all that great. Hell, even when TBC first hit, I could sell Khorium to save my life. Yes, it was rare and expensive, but nobody was buying it.
 

Hero

Member
Rogues are fine PVE wise, PVP wise resilience rapes them and mages the hardest.

Warlocks who spec affliction are practically gods both PVE and PVP, especially with 10K hps + 200+ resilience, since DoTs aren't effected by resilience.
 
Then I should be cool still.

I only do spontaneous PVP in the field with the Rogue, and my Lock has been Affliction for ages.

Please God, grant me the strength to stay away....I was going to stop MMOs until I saw what the Marvel/DC games offered, but I miss Azeroth.
 

etiolate

Banned
Is there anything viable for arena as druid? Resto is not, no bubble or dispell kind of negates my instant heals, since I die the easiest out of any healing class. People keep inviting me to arena teams, but I feel bad because all I can do is heal, with little to no dps and I die easily. Cyclone is pretty lame now because of it's short duration, DR and it being trinketable.

And to CK, I love shamans in a group and we were recruiting shamans just for theit totems on gruul and void reaver. We just did Netherspite with an enhancement shaman and six melee. The Arms/fury warriors wf crits were insane.
 

firex

Member
you could probably do ok as feral. if there was balance gear with more stamina, that actually wouldn't be bad either since you can root, but every balance druid I've ever seen in pvp tends to die fast due to their low HP.
 

yacobod

Banned
pvp trinket, high stam, and high resilience have killed rogues in pvp, rogues are the easiest target for me to drop in bgs and arena, and warriors can stunlock better than rogues now :D

i think rogues are prolly the worse class in pvp now, the taste of all the rogue tears is delicious

resto/balance druids are pretty good in smaller scale arena imo, MS warrior + druid is a damn good 2v2combo now, and druids are pretty good in certain 3v3 teams, good druids can kite like a mother ****er too

and ya shaman have always been awesome paired up with warriors
 

MrToughPants

Brian Burke punched my mom
Hero said:
Rogues are fine PVE wise, PVP wise resilience rapes them and mages the hardest.

Warlocks who spec affliction are practically gods both PVE and PVP, especially with 10K hps + 200+ resilience, since DoTs aren't effected by resilience.

Practically... but a Warrior with 350+ shadow resistance alt gear (itemrack add-on) will make quick work out of a Lock or Priest.
 
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