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[Alex]

Vanilla WoW was pretty iffy in retrospect compared to BC. There really just was no content outside of raiding, and the original honor system was the worst thing ever conceived.

BC added a lot of good things, but at the same time it shifted a really annoying focus to the arena system. They did so much good, but chose to focus on a single element yet again, and it's an element that really is as unambitious as it gets, that's what's aggravating

I certainly don't mind the competitive edge, I did quite well in it, and I don't mind putting the effort in. Got nothing to do with that. Heck, it's not even about being more casual, you really can't be too casual and play an MMO at all. It's about accessibility and fun. People need to be able to easily participate in this stuff, from the manner they choose, and enjoy themselves doing it.

Arena's are not a good environment for that, or for really keeping you into something like an MMO, IMO. Rated BG's on the other hand....! Still would be pretty simple, and less than the PvP game deserves, but at least it'd be a lot more accessible and fun.

PvP is a big part of the game for me, so if there aren't some adjustments I'm going to be pretty disappointed, myself. Lets see some variety and resourcefulness come in, not just "oddly balanced duel boxes".

But at least raiding, and PvE is finally getting it's dues. I'm still excited for all the 10 man dungeons. A lot of the PvE changes and additions I'm pretty happy with.

 

[border]

Am I the only one that wishes that they had somehow included Battlegrounds in their push towards eSports acceptance? From a spectator's perspective, arena matches are just a confusing clusterfuck, but watching a well played BG has a bit more appeal.

 

[Alex]

I just said that, man! You ain't even close to the only one, I hear it constantly.

Class balance wouldn't need to be so awkwardly tight, for one. That alone would be a huge boon, not even getting into the level of creativity you could work with doing large scale battles rather than boxed in duels. It's an RPG, so it'd be nice to see some wild maps and gameplay concepts rather than Counter-Strike clan match seriousness.

Would also be much more accessible, be able to include chunks of your guild, all your friends, even the asshat randoms that make me laugh in the normal PUG BG's I do would be fine!

They'd just be a hell of a lot more fun, especially in the long run, which is where Arenas are starting to hurt.

 

[firex]

I'll probably actually raid in WotLK since it's only gonna need 10 people. Hell, I bet some/all of it will eventually be pugged. Even if not... it's only 10 people. It's way easier to find 20ish people who all get along than it is to find 50ish, and I don't mind the loot segregation. Well, ok, I mind it a little bit, but not enough to complain about it.

But I was kind of getting at that I enjoy BGs now because all the serious business guys who used to make them annoying (along with the out of whack raid content imbalance) in vanilla WoW have moved on to arenas. Somehow, by being blizzard's forgotten pvp model, they've become better. I do wish they'd have more variety and I wish they'd go back to BGs, but then again I don't want to get Kalgan's eyes on it or else he'll find a way to shit it up.

 

[gondwana]

I just think it's troubling they haven't been more open on their solution for arena "balance", yet they're continuously confident they can get a piece of the esport pie. Personally, I've learned and come to enjoy arena for what it is right now, just like I enjoy battlegrounds.

Lake Wintergrasp sounds fantastic, and I'll submerge myself into Blizzard branded holy water if they ever decide to actually bring out ranked WSG as an alternative to arena.

 

[Alex]

What I would do, personally, is fold arenas into battlegrounds: 2v2, 5v5, 10v10, 15v15 & 25v25 Battlegrounds. Two maps per bracket to start, maybe?

Have a Private War bracket, that requires a full, registered pre-made.

Have a Horde/Alliance Forces bracket, that requires a full PuG.

Let people earn ranks, exclusive to their bracket type, which unlock map specific skills (!) and items to purchase at the vendor.

Earn points to buy equipment the same way you do in arena right now. Perhaps at 60/70/80/90/100% ratio, per bracket, scaling up. 10 games per week minimum, points given based on rank.

Let the PUG players collect 90% of the points Pre-made players do, but restrict them from buying the most current weapons, or collecting upper end officers/heroes w/e ranks, titles or tabards. It'd be difficult enough to reliably rank up in a PuG, so that's more than enough restriction to be fair, IMO. Seperate PvP anad PvE gear further so there's not as much blatant whining as there is in the current arena system.

Allow people to collect a starter set that changes per season as to not fall too far behind for newbies and alts and gain essential Battleground items (bandages, food, water, small potions, etc), by participating in the current world PvP zone (Lake Wintergrasp in WotLK). Also allow people to pay a gold based fee to change the set pieces within the same armor type, so if people want to respec, they can REASONABLY do so.

Have shorter periods of War (fuck seasons, it's a war baby!), perhaps one month or two months per. Give more rewards, but at less significance for the top three tiers of puggers and teams, give significantly better end war rewards to high end brackets, stuff that can be used in the whole game, maybe.

That's what I'd do. Everyone could be involved in it, from soloers, to whole guilds, it'd be more fair, more accessible, more fun, more polished, more balanced and it'd also revive World PVP, not punish people who have mediocre specs for something and really allow alts and newbies to get into things with ease. It'd also fit the goddamn theme of the game better WarCraft, not SportsCraft.

 

[Chris R]

I just think it's troubling they haven't been more open on their solution for arena "balance", yet they're continuously confident they can get a piece of the esport pie. Personally, I've learned and come to enjoy arena for what it is right now, just like I enjoy battlegrounds.

Lake Wintergrasp sounds fantastic, and I'll submerge myself into Blizzard branded holy water if they ever decide to actually bring out ranked WSG as an alternative to arena.

Where have you heard information about Wintergrasp? I personally don't mind battlegrounds(they were better when AV lasted for hours and was just your server, you knew almost everyone on the other team), but I HATE arenas with a passion and I'm kinda pissed off that honor purchase gear now will have personal rating requirements, biggest bit of bullshit ever.

Would love to see world pvp make a comeback but it never will. Seems that arena's are here to stay forever.

 

[speedpop]

I'm hoping that Wintergrasp can somehow emulate the faction rivalry that was so great in PVP before cross-servers came into it.

 

[The Lamonster]

Has it been said if there's new talents for every class in the expansion? Specifically, will the hunter see any new talents to spend talent points on?

 

[Rogosh]

Yeah, every class will. You'll have a 51 point ability in each tree, much like each class has a 41 point ability now.

 

[Hero]

I think it's sad that after all these years of WoW there's only 4 battlegrounds. I want to see a Jailbreak type BG.

Lots of good suggestions in this thread. I wouldn't want to go back to pre-TBC WoW either. You either raided hardcore or PVPed hardcore. And the old honor system was fucking horrible.

 

[Twig]

Sweet Ideas

Wow, I love your ideas for WoW PvP. O:

I mean, I'm really loving AoC PvP, probably more than I would that kind of PvP, but I also still love the Warcraft universe. Your ideas compounded with the world of Warcraft (no pun intended ;- might be enough to make me come back!

 

[yacobod]

it is pretty amazing that after 4 years, 10 million subscribers, and we are still stuck playing the same 4 bgs

and we might as well not count EotS since its the biggest festering piece of shit

i'm still amazed tho how the game is so old, but yet most ppl dont have the slightest clue on how to play and win the bgs, either that or they are too stupid or dont care

 

[bengraven]

What levels are Duskwallow Marsh now? My girlfriend should be up to that level and I'm trying convince her to play that area instead of STV or Swamp of Sorrows.

 

[Tamanon]

You can really start questing there at level 34 and run all the way to 40.

 

[firex]

I like Alex's idea for pvp but it's a shame blizzard would never do it. I'd kill to have some new BGs though. I wish they'd just adapt more popular warcraft 3 map types instead of doing halfassed ripoffs of FPS modes for a bunch of new BGs. I think part of the problem is pvp was an afterthought in vanilla WoW and their big idea to make it a competitive endgame in TBC was arena, so they wouldn't have to put any real serious effort into designing big complex BGs and shit.

I'm really hoping they add great rewards to Wintergrasp and continually update them. I admit I think BGs are way better balanced than world pvp since you don't have to deal with massive population imbalances, but as long as they make it better I'd like it.

They do need to fix something with BGs though. I fucking hate how a BG like AB/EotS can start with 3-5 horde and 15 alliance. At that point when enough people fill it up so teams are even the alliance already has a huge favor. I really wish they'd just find some way to prevent the game from starting until teams are within 1-2 people of each other.

 

[Hero]

it is pretty amazing that after 4 years, 10 million subscribers, and we are still stuck playing the same 4 bgs

and we might as well not count EotS since its the biggest festering piece of shit

i'm still amazed tho how the game is so old, but yet most ppl dont have the slightest clue on how to play and win the bgs, either that or they are too stupid or dont care

Wow, we finally agree on something exactly, must be a cold day today...

EOTS is the worst BG, I fucking hate it so much.

"Hey guys what kind of BG should we make for the expansion?"
"Let's just combine AB and WSG and call it day."
"Awesome."

 

[Twig]

I like Alex's idea for pvp but it's a shame blizzard would never do it. I'd kill to have some new BGs though. I wish they'd just adapt more popular warcraft 3 map types instead of doing halfassed ripoffs of FPS modes for a bunch of new BGs.

I completely agree. CTF? Really? You can't be more creative than that, Blizzard?

Oh man how awesome would it be to have a DOTA-type BG. Only, to make it more PvP and less PvE, all the trash mobs are yours to control. (You'd get like a pet bar, and it would control all of them at once. Maybe five trash mobs per "hero".)

I wonder if that would work...

 

[Eric WK]

What levels are Duskwallow Marsh now? My girlfriend should be up to that level and I'm trying convince her to play that area instead of STV or Swamp of Sorrows.

Like 36-42.

 

[CassSept]

I'm in a bit of dilemma. I've been running Heroics/Kara for a while now and my DPS is just not what I want it to be like. I don't know whether it's due to my spec, my gear, or my spell rotation, but, for whatever reason, I'm only averaging 500-600 DPS tops.

Here's my Armory profile.

As I've only really played this one toon and I'm not that experienced, endgame or theorycrafting wise, I'm open to all suggestions. (i.e. I'm a noob and I know it, so I'll listen to what anyone has to say) Respecs, spell rotation changeup, (I currently go CoS, Corruption, Life Siphon, SB spam for the most part) gear change, macros, addons, etc. So, anybody got any advice?

Also, on a totally different note, what kinda stats should I have before I attempt to run ZA?

Wouldn't you prefer putting 20 points into demonology instead of destruction? My guild is in T6 range so all locks are destro so i don't know, but don't affli locks use Drain Life, not SB after they put all curses on?

 

[firex]

yeah, I really wish they would make a dota styled map or aeon of strife (the map that originally inspired dota, and it's also pretty good) or something like that. They could keep the spawning mobs and just make them insanely weak, so you'd plow through them easily until you face off against another player.

and for the record, even though eots is the laziest designed BG, I still like it way more than wsg. wsg is my least favorite by a longshot. Probably because eots is about more than how many druids your team has and how well geared they are, plus every wsg match I've played is either over in like 5 minutes or 5 hours and the other BGs are usually 20-30 minutes at most.

 

[yacobod]

Wow, we finally agree on something exactly, must be a cold day today...

EOTS is the worst BG, I fucking hate it so much.

"Hey guys what kind of BG should we make for the expansion?"
"Let's just combine AB and WSG and call it day."
"Awesome."

what's even worse is all the mouth breathers still havent realized taking nodes (3+) is far better than camping the flag

 

[Hero]

Yeah. It's like how long does it take for a monkey to realize the more effective winning strategy.

 

[Fulleffect]

it is pretty amazing that after 4 years, 10 million subscribers, and we are still stuck playing the same 4 bgs

ahh finally something i can agree with you on

i think it's even more amazing that in 2+ years people will have been dueling inside the same boxes with 1 new box containing a reskinned pillar they had to pay 40$ for

1 new arena and 1 new bg.. lol

while it would be nice to have hope for wintergrasp, you walk into a pre-bc town, you get zerged by normal guards, you walk into a bc town, you get zerged by elite guards, you walk into a wotlk town, you will most likely get zerged by raid bosses

i don't think it's going in a direction i like

 

[dave is ok]

Traveler: With your gear, the best bet is probably a 30/21/10 spec. You'll get the 10% shadow damage in Affliction, then sacrificing a Succubi, you get another +15%. All you should be doing is putting up Agony-Corruption-Siphon Life and then spamming shadowbolt, refreshing the DOTs when necessary

 

[Chris R]

WSG is the worst bg because it doesn't ever have to end. At least with AV/AB/EOTS there is a timer of some sorts. But yea... no new BGs in forever pisses me off as well.

 

[traveler]

Meet your new best friend, traveler:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17008-warlock_pve_raiding_compendium/

EDIT: You might also find this Wowhead thread useful. It has a few links at the bottom that look good too.

http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=23638

Whoa, thanks a ton Eric. Although this is a bit daunting for me- so much math O_O

 

[gondwana]

What I would do, personally, is...

I like your ideas, too. It seems like you want the team-oriented RVR system of Warhammer with the Warcraft universe sprinkled on top. I'll tell you what, it's going to suck for me next winter/fall when I end up juggling between WAR and WotLK.

 

[Eric WK]

Whoa, thanks a ton Eric. Although this is a bit daunting for me- so much math O_O

Anytime.

I've never played a Warlock so I can't vouch for any of those guides personally, but when I'm learning a new class Elitist Jerks is the first place I look. And Wowhead's forums usually turn up much more than the official forums.

But yeah, glad I could help.

 

[Tamanon]

Motherfucker. Something from that Flash stuff got on my system and my WoW account was hacked today. I tried logging on and kept getting booted immediately, changed my password and all my gold and most of my stuff is gone. Waiting on a GM now, doing a virus and spyware scan.

 

[VaLiancY]

I love randomly coming across someone trying to transfer items through the neutral AH. I just checked the Booty Bay auction house one time and saw 5 Primal Fires on there for 5 copper. Needless to say, my level 38 character had his mount money after that.

:lol

Motherfucker. Something from that Flash stuff got on my system and my WoW account was hacked today. I tried logging on and kept getting booted immediately, changed my password and all my gold and most of my stuff is gone. Waiting on a GM now, doing a virus and spyware scan.

:sadface But all jokes aside, sorry to hear that. I do hope you get a GM on the line quickly and get your stuff back.

 

[Tamanon]

Yeah talked to a GM, he escalated things and they'll be doing the whole investigation and restoration thing for the next few days. If need be, at least they left my equipped items, but it was a good amount of gold. At least it should be easily traced.:lol

 

[bengraven]

Motherfucker. Something from that Flash stuff got on my system and my WoW account was hacked today. I tried logging on and kept getting booted immediately, changed my password and all my gold and most of my stuff is gone. Waiting on a GM now, doing a virus and spyware scan.

Damn, man, sorry to hear that.

What Flash stuff, by the way?

 

[Tamanon]

Damn, man, sorry to hear that.

What Flash stuff, by the way?

Make sure your flash is updated. There's a link on the main site. Basically there's a vulnerability in a .swf file that just got patched.

 

[bengraven]

Make sure your flash is updated. There's a link on the main site. Basically there's a vulnerability in a .swf file that just got patched.

All my PCs at home will be updated because of this. Thanks man and I'm truly sorry to hear that.

 

[Alex]

I can't wait for LK to start doing pugs again, I think I've become addicted to the comedic value of them over the past few years.

I'm reminded of this earlier, when a friend sends me a message on MSN, telling me that he was just kicked from a Botanica PUG on his alt Warlock, because he was draining shards from mobs, and apparently he was accused of ninjaing them

 

[The Lamonster]

If I put something in the AH and it doesn't sell, will I lose my gold deposit?


If so, WTH

 

[MrPing1000]

PvP in WoW is silly, wheres the epic battles with resource points and building to capture that allow armour + weapon upgrades, useable vehicles etc (in the form of buffs). You know like in Warcraft.

 

[Scrow]

If I put something in the AH and it doesn't sell, will I lose my gold deposit?

of course...

If so, WTH

what'd you expect?

PvP in WoW is silly, wheres the epic battles with resource points and building to capture that allow armour + weapon upgrades, useable vehicles etc (in the form of buffs). You know like in Warcraft.

you mean like in hellfire peninsula where capturing points gives zone wide buffs to all players of the winning faction?

 

[Tamanon]

PvP in WoW is silly, wheres the epic battles with resource points and building to capture that allow armour + weapon upgrades, useable vehicles etc (in the form of buffs). You know like in Warcraft.

Wait...that's basically all outdoor PvP in Outlands Except for the vehicles. And that's coming in WotLK.

 

[Oni Link 666]

PvP in WoW is silly, wheres the epic battles with resource points and building to capture that allow armour + weapon upgrades, useable vehicles etc (in the form of buffs). You know like in Warcraft.

That's kind of what Alterac Valley was but, people didn't like it 'cause it took too long.

 

[JoeMartin]

If I put something in the AH and it doesn't sell, will I lose my gold deposit?


If so, WTH

It's a minuscule deposit at best, even for the most expensive of items. If it's something worth selling on the AH and you price it reasonably then you're likely going to sell it anyways. Ever then, the AH always takes a slice of the price that you sell items for - it's a gold sink in the system.

But it's not unlike eBay in real life. They take a cut per auction, regardless of whether or not your item actually sells.

 

[Alex]

Yeah, there used to be a lot more to AV, but rather than tweaking it so it didn't go on for 12 hours, they just decided to destroy it instead.

I still think AV is pretty much my favorite BG if you get into a good one, where people are actually defending and holding towers and graveyards, and causing large skirmishes, but it was a lot better in it's 1.0 form

Remember Korrak, and the summonable bosses, hell the bosses even used to drop loot! Good loot! And of course the resource gathering, and the rank ups and all the things you could do, like summoning the bomb throwing guys, making the turn ins, etc.

Blizzard is fucking lame some times. Especially when Kalgan/Tom Chilton responds to "we want Hillsbrad fighting and AV 1.0 back!" with "NO YOU DONT, ITS JUST NOSTALGIA", he seriously said that:

Tom Chilton : I'll tell you, it's been a slow evolution. When WoW first came out, we didn't really have any semblance of organized PvP. We had Tarren Mill versus Southshore...

GameSpy: Which was awesome!

Tom Chilton : That's nostalgia speaking!

And while in general, most vanilla WoW fondness is bullshit nostalgia, HILLSBRAD AND ORIGINAL AV ARE NOT!

 

[firex]

oh and the AH takes a deposit because it didn't in beta when it was first introduced, and everyone abused it as a free bank by putting stuff up for huge buyouts, then letting it bounce back later so they'd have it sitting in their mail.

 

[bengraven]

That's kind of what Alterac Valley was but, people didn't like it 'cause it took too long.

I know, I sometimes wondered what the point of the mines and quests in AV were. I sometimes do them for fun now.

 

[Hero]

Fuck you, Kalgan.

 

[speedpop]

Hahaha what the fuck!?

Tarren Mill vs Southshore was the fucking bomb! It was mindless PVP fun! Chilton reminds me of one of those wankers who bitched about a faction storming the town and drilling the flight master. Boo fucking hoo!

Such a shame that World PVP is now being restricted to a zone and those idiot designers are trying to control how it shapes and forms. Surely there is someone high up in Blizzard who remembers what it was like to float through the air from a cliff onto the inn at Lakeshire in Redridge and CHAIN LIGHTNING the dweebs running in & out of the inn!! Good times!

The better moments were when the Rogues joined in and hid inside the inns, so those running for safety of the building were met by assassins. The ones who lived would run back out and get killed again like hapless sheep. Oh I miss World PVP.

 

[bengraven]

Fuck you, Kalgan.

I usually say "Kalgan, take me away..."

 

[Alex]

Tarren Mill VS Southshore tug of war was great, even on a fucking PvE server it was great.

Good world or large scale PvP is the way to go in an MMO. I've had some good times in WoW's PvP but I think the UO's test shard Faction Wars and DAoC's RvR had the best ideas.

Of course, when you're talking "best ideas" for an MMO, classic UO usually is the top slot for every catagorey.

 

[The Lamonster]

It's a minuscule deposit at best, even for the most expensive of items. If it's something worth selling on the AH and you price it reasonably then you're likely going to sell it anyways. Ever then, the AH always takes a slice of the price that you sell items for - it's a gold sink in the system.

But it's not unlike eBay in real life. They take a cut per auction, regardless of whether or not your item actually sells.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm quickly approaching level 40, and I have about 50 gold. This money thing is really starting to stress me out. I want a mount as soon as possible (because I spend most of my time just running from place to place and it's boring and takes forever) and I just lost about 3 gold worth in deposits. It takes me a whole level to gain 3 gold.

I didn't start playing this game just to get all stressed about money issues. THIS ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE REAL LIFE. Professions are boring and feel like a tack-on, the AH never sells my items so I always end up losing gold, and monsters never drop very much gold. And if I buy gold with real money from a website, I'm subject to hacking or banning.

I don't want to put this game down, but severe lack of funds is really cramping the fun. Fuck.