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World of Warcraft

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J-Rzez

Member
firex said:
I have to say yet again I really hate the balancing act of tank gear "upgrades" from raids. Almost every time I get something with more health or some kind of avoidance/mitigation, the defense loss means I have to enchant/gem for defense just to stay crit immune.

I've been going through the same song and dance now in Ulduar. Obvious tanking pieces will drop, like rings or pants, and yet they have ZERO defense on them. And it seems I've been seeing a lot more "block" rated gear drop too. If I get enough of that crap though, I guess i can go SSG, but that's if the avoidance figures don't fall off. Right now, in my gear configuration, my Dodge + Parry are worth more than it would be with the small hp upgrade, and reduction of one pure +16def gem if I switch to SSG. I guess I'll have to wait and see what else we get to drop in there.
 

TomServo

Junior Member
All classes deal with juggling stats.

Ratingsbuster or a similar addon will take care of balancing +sp / haste / crit / spirit but hit really throws it all for a loop because those stat weights assume you're hit capped. Replacing a piece with a ton of hit on it (like my Maly25 legs) is an exercise in quick math trying to figure out of you can regem / re-enchant to pick up the lost hit and still have a net increase in the other stats.

Dual specs actually make this even more of a PITA, since my warlock's afflicition spec has a +3% hit bonus that my demo / destro spec doesn't.
 

explodet

Member
I know what you all mean, I got Stoneguard from Kologarn this weekend, but because it has zero +def on it I'll only use it to pvp in prot spec for the higher HoR hits.

It's probably meant more for dual-wielding Death Knights.
 

explodet

Member
Sai-kun said:
Can I just do five of the Shattered Sun Offensive dailies? [I still think SSO is the coolest faction name ever]
Yup.

I got mine from the Argent Tournament dailies. That place is the new SSO, with lesser gear and a bit less ganking. Once you get up to champion status you can do 8 dailies, and two pairs of them have very similar objectives (one is kill 10 scourge, the other is kill 15 scourge). Just takes forever to get there.
 

firex

Member
TomServo said:
All classes deal with juggling stats.

Ratingsbuster or a similar addon will take care of balancing +sp / haste / crit / spirit but hit really throws it all for a loop because those stat weights assume you're hit capped. Replacing a piece with a ton of hit on it (like my Maly25 legs) is an exercise in quick math trying to figure out of you can regem / re-enchant to pick up the lost hit and still have a net increase in the other stats.

Dual specs actually make this even more of a PITA, since my warlock's afflicition spec has a +3% hit bonus that my demo / destro spec doesn't.
My point is that tank gear that should be upgrades tends to be downgrades, until you get some random piece in another slot that is budgeted to make up for the loss on your new item. You can't just throw on an epic that is superior to a lower-ilvl blue like you can as a dps/healer and do, well, better.
 

TomServo

Junior Member
firex said:
My point is that tank gear that should be upgrades tends to be downgrades, until you get some random piece in another slot that is budgeted to make up for the loss on your new item. You can't just throw on an epic that is superior to a lower-ilvl blue like you can as a dps/healer and do, well, better.

And I'm telling you you that it's not something that dps doesn't deal with. Healers maybe, because they're not worried about hit.

I still use an iLevel200 belt from H UP because of the +hit. The only iLevel213 belt that would be a direct upgrade also has +hit on it (Thaddius drop), and there are plenty of iLevel200 and iLevel213 belts in Naxx that I've passed over. The only way I can lose the +hit in that slot and not have it become a net loss is to get the iLevel226 belt from Maly or possbily an Ulduar drop I'm not yet aware of.

Hell, I'm passing on T8 tokens because the way the new Glyph of Life Tap interacts with 4pT7 means that I'm looking at a dps loss moving from T7 to T8 until I get the 4pT8 bonus.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Here's an excellent offender:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45708

Zero defense unless you put a +16def, or a +27 def eye in there. And it's not all that easy to be def capped yet that those legs are "OK". I would've much preferred that "expertise" turned into Def. And then there's other items in there that are in the same boat like rings and stuff. Perhaps War/Pally/Druids have it easier on their own respective caps, but the stuff I've gotten so far has been all pointing into forcing me to use that SSG rune.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
explodet said:
Yup.

I got mine from the Argent Tournament dailies. That place is the new SSO, with lesser gear and a bit less ganking. Once you get up to champion status you can do 8 dailies, and two pairs of them have very similar objectives (one is kill 10 scourge, the other is kill 15 scourge). Just takes forever to get there.

I just like the Isle of Quel'Danas more than I like Icecrown :lol Thanks :D
 

firex

Member
TomServo said:
And I'm telling you you that it's not something that dps doesn't deal with. Healers maybe, because they're not worried about hit.

I still use an iLevel200 belt from H UP because of the +hit. The only iLevel213 belt that would be a direct upgrade also has +hit on it (Thaddius drop), and there are plenty of iLevel200 and iLevel213 belts in Naxx that I've passed over. The only way I can lose the +hit in that slot and not have it become a net loss is to get the iLevel226 belt from Maly or possbily an Ulduar drop I'm not yet aware of.

Hell, I'm passing on T8 tokens because the way the new Glyph of Life Tap interacts with 4pT7 means that I'm looking at a dps loss moving from T7 to T8 until I get the 4pT8 bonus.
Missing like 1% more with attacks isn't as big of a deal as dropping below the minimum required defense to tank stuff, though. I know there are pieces that aren't budgeted nicely for dps, but my big point overall is most raid drops that are supposed to be upgrades aren't, because they're just poorly itemized and either have no defense or not enough defense over blues, which winds up making lower quality gear necessary to keep. I guess that's the big problem. I can't use gear I get in raids until I go juggle a bunch of enchants and gems just to make sure they all fit.

I guess I'd just rather Blizzard gave equal/slightly better defense rating on a lot of tank gear, and then different avoidance/mitigation/expertise ratings on other gear. Or offered more defense-oriented tank enchants.
 
We have received many questions about how the proc works on Val’anyr, the Hammer of the Ancient Kings. While we originally intended for this effect to be a mystery, we realize that guilds now know what the tooltip on the proc says without necessarily knowing the details on how it works. This leads to situations where a healer may not know if assembling the hammer is worth it for them (hint: it is), and perhaps even worse, a misinformed leader may not think you deserve the hammer (hint: you do).

Players also wonder if the proc makes the item deserving of its legendary status given that the stat allocation is normal for items of its item level (Hint: it does).

The effect reads “Your healing spells have a chance to cause Blessing of Ancient Kings for 15 seconds allowing your heals to shield the target absorbing damage equal to 15% of the amount healed.”

The way this works is that when the proc happens (which is a 10% chance whenever a hot or direct spell heals, with a 45 sec internal cooldown) you gain a buff (the Blessing) on yourself. Now all of your heals for the next 15 sec cause an 8 sec damage shield. The shield stacks with itself. It includes healing done by subsequent ticks of existing hots on the target. Note that the spell has to actually heal, so hots ticking on a fully-healed target cannot cause the proc. However the shield is based on the size of the heal itself, not the amount healed – i.e. 100% overhealing will not proc the Blessing on the healer, but the shield itself includes overhealing once the Blessing is active. The shield can grow to a maximum size of 20,000 damage absorbed.

Example 1: A paladin casts Holy Light for 10K on the tank, which partially heals her. The Blessing procs, so the paladin’s Holy Light immediately causes a shield on the tank which will now absorb 1500 damage. The tank dodges the next two hits, so no damage is absorbed. The paladin then casts another heal for 8K, but only heals the tank for 600 before she is at full health. The shield is now at 2700 damage absorbed (1500 + 1200) for 8 sec.

Example 2: A druid casts Rejuv on the tank, healing her. The Blessing procs on the druid on the second tick. A shield is applied to the tank which absorbs 15% of the amount healed by that tick and each remaining tick of the Rejuv. If the druid also gets Lifebloom and Regrowth on the tank while the Blessing is up, then those ticks also contribute to the shield. If the shield goes down because the 8 sec duration expires or it absorbs that much damage, it can go up again as long as the Blessing lasts, which is 15 sec.

Perfect Paladin itemization and proc. Can't wait to get mine... in 3-4 months.
 
Wow. I can think of like a billion fucking uses for that, it's ridiculous. From the description it made the proc sound like just one silly shield with a 15 sec duration..
 

Magnus

Member
Kyoufu said:
Silly question but you're doing 25man right? Thats just really really bad luck :/

Yeah, 25-man, of course! haha :lol :(

And yeah, the Val'anyr explanation makes me wet. That thing's phenomenal for every healer.

Everyone's still thinking this is only useful on tanks, but imagine the potential for smoothing out raid damage once BoAK procs? It's effectively an extra 15% to heals you put out on anyone for something like 20-23 seconds (since you have a 15-second window to put up shields with 8-second durations). CoH/Chain Heal/WG/Glyph of HL spam will start putting shields up everywhere. It'll be amazing.
 

TomServo

Junior Member
Doing School of Hard Knocks made me realize how much more fun it is to zerg all over the BG.

I'm a changed man. From all the way back in vanilla I would always play defense. No more. Let the guy raging in chat about no one playing D actually go and do it himself. If I'm in a BG, I'm zerging.

Not a hard achievement. Got AV, AB, and EotS done on the first try. Alliance in our battlegroup decided to be horrible in WSG, so it took three 3-0 wins before I got the WSG part of the achievement done. They simply weren't able to get our flag most of the time, so there was nothing to return.
 

GDJustin

stuck my tongue deep inside Atlus' cookies
firex said:
Missing like 1% more with attacks isn't as big of a deal as dropping below the minimum required defense to tank stuff, though. I know there are pieces that aren't budgeted nicely for dps, but my big point overall is most raid drops that are supposed to be upgrades aren't, because they're just poorly itemized and either have no defense or not enough defense over blues, which winds up making lower quality gear necessary to keep. I guess that's the big problem. I can't use gear I get in raids until I go juggle a bunch of enchants and gems just to make sure they all fit.

I guess I'd just rather Blizzard gave equal/slightly better defense rating on a lot of tank gear, and then different avoidance/mitigation/expertise ratings on other gear. Or offered more defense-oriented tank enchants.

You're arguing a losing battle, here. Any DPS that isn't hit-capped will not be allowed into any (serious) raid. So an "upgrade" that causes you to lose a bunch of hit is the equiv. of an upgrade that doesn't have defense on it. Not being hitcapped is NOT an option, just like not being def-capped isn't.

I myself don't seriously raid, but I'm running into a miniature version of this same issue. I had a bunch of hit from heroic 5mans, since those gear pieces are intended to get people gear-ready for early raiding. But now the iLevel 200-213 pieces I'm getting from Naxx25, Sarth10, and Maly10 don't have any hit on them -_-

I had to take a major hit to my spell dmg and buy this trinket, just to get back up to hit cap: http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=42129

That still didn't get me all the way there, so I had to redo all my gems, too. I lost something like ~120 hit from three raid "upgrades."

Edit: My hunch is that Blizz is itemizing Ulduar gear without a ton of hit/def very intentionally. Think about if you WERE at/over hit/def cap, then some piece dropped that had 40+ on it. You'd feel very meh. Better to take the upgrade in crit, dmg, etc., and then work out with chants and gems how to make up the def. They figure high-end raiders have other options to get capped.
 

firex

Member
you have no clue about gearing up a tank if you think having defense over the cap is bad. I would take defense over the cap over more dodge/parry/block rating any day, because it gives a much better return per point than dodge/block/parry rating do. Block doesn't scale down for stacking like dodge/parry do, but defense adds more to total avoidance and survivability, even past the cap, than stacking block rating would.

It isn't comparable to being below the hit cap for dps. It just isn't. It's pretty hard to get hit capped as anything but a warrior/rogue/paladin/DK/hunter without raid drops anyway. There's also no real chance of a 10man raid wiping if your dps aren't hit capped, as enrage timers are pretty generous in Naxx/OS (haven't done Maly yet despite having the key). Even in 25man, those raids are really forgiving. If you're talking about tougher content or doing Sarth+drakes, then yeah, you need to be hit capped. But there are good gear choices compared to a lot of tank gear. Blizzard just fucked the dog period with raid tank drops.

I mean let's be real here. If you have a tank with 539 defense, they can't go on a raid. If you have a warrior/paladin/hunter with 7.5% hit, it won't matter. If we were talking about it in absolutes, then sure, a dps with no hit is as pointless in a raid as a tank below the def cap. But a dps barely below the hit cap is fine even if they aren't perfect, while a tank barely below the def cap is useless. That's a real problem with tank gear upgrades from raiding. I am replacing pieces that make me a worse tank, when they are higher quality and should make me a better tank. The budgeting/itemization is just stupid on a lot of drops.

I'm not saying dps doesn't have equally frustrating itemization, but dps can live with being near-perfect. Tanks really can't.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
firex said:
you have no clue about gearing up a tank if you think having defense over the cap is bad. I would take defense over the cap over more dodge/parry/block rating any day, because it gives a much better return per point than dodge/block/parry rating do. Block doesn't scale down for stacking like dodge/parry do, but defense adds more to total avoidance and survivability, even past the cap, than stacking block rating would.

It isn't comparable to being below the hit cap for dps. It just isn't. It's pretty hard to get hit capped as anything but a warrior/rogue/paladin/DK/hunter without raid drops anyway. There's also no real chance of a 10man raid wiping if your dps aren't hit capped, as enrage timers are pretty generous in Naxx/OS (haven't done Maly yet despite having the key). Even in 25man, those raids are really forgiving. If you're talking about tougher content or doing Sarth+drakes, then yeah, you need to be hit capped. But there are good gear choices compared to a lot of tank gear. Blizzard just fucked the dog period with raid tank drops.

I mean let's be real here. If you have a tank with 539 defense, they can't go on a raid. If you have a warrior/paladin/hunter with 7.5% hit, it won't matter. If we were talking about it in absolutes, then sure, a dps with no hit is as pointless in a raid as a tank below the def cap. But a dps barely below the hit cap is fine even if they aren't perfect, while a tank barely below the def cap is useless. That's a real problem with tank gear upgrades from raiding. I am replacing pieces that make me a worse tank, when they are higher quality and should make me a better tank. The budgeting/itemization is just stupid on a lot of drops.

I'm not saying dps doesn't have equally frustrating itemization, but dps can live with being near-perfect. Tanks really can't.


Euuuuh what?


Stacking Defense gives you less Block/dodge/parry per point than if you were at 540 and started gemming for those stats. Where do you get your info?


It's just common sense that if stacking Defense over the cap was better than using B/D/P gems then...why would they even have B/D/P gems?
 

GDJustin

stuck my tongue deep inside Atlus' cookies
Firex, I agree with you that a Tank below Def cap is more harmful to a raid than a DPS below hit cap. That goes without saying. MOSTLY because there's many more DPS in a raid than tanks. Less hinges on each individual DPSer.

My point is that your crusade over the last few replies - "You don't understaaaand! Def cap is soooo much more important than hit cap! It's ESSENTIAL we rejigger our gear when we lose Def!" isn't going to get you anywhere with DPS raiders, because for any DPS raider that actually gives a shit, being below hit cap is not an option.

I'm a super-casual PUG raider, and even I know hit cap is essential.

That's the only thing that matters, for early-raiding casters. Get hit capped. Get hit capped. Get hit capped. Once you're out of the early raids, Rule #1, before ANYTHING else, is "stay hit capped."

So the point is, whether it's "as essential" as def-cap doesn't matter. What MATTERS is that we go through the same itemization woes that you do. Ignoring the ~30 missing hit when we upgrade to a crit/haste piece is not an option for us, just like it isn't for you.
 

firex

Member
LAUGHTREY said:
Euuuuh what?


Stacking Defense gives you less Block/dodge/parry per point than if you were at 540 and started gemming for those stats. Where do you get your info?


It's just common sense that if stacking Defense over the cap was better than using B/D/P gems then...why would they even have B/D/P gems?
Not anymore. Go read EJ. Those ratings are good (though there's no block rating gem anyway) but more for matching sockets with pure tank stats/bonuses. DRs on all ratings means in all honesty you get more total avoidance using defense when you run into a DR on dodge/parry rating. I'm not saying dodge/block/parry rating are pointless, but that stacking any rating except defense is pretty pointless because the DRs come in pretty hard, and dodge/parry require more rating per point than you get out of stacking defense. Also, when you factor in the math required for x parry/dodge rating = 1% parry/dodge compared to x defense rating = 1% combined block/parry/dodge/miss, it's much, much easier to add 1% total avoidance via defense gems/enchants than it is to whore out dodge like in TBC. Especially considering the gems give the same amount numerically of each rating, but the points required to gain defense from defense rating are much "cheaper" than the points to gain dodge/parry from rating, unless they massively nerfed that in 3.1.

And basically I feel like dps for the most part is such an easy job, any issues they have with gear are almost irrelevant. Not even from a "oh you're not hit/expertise capped? we'll just replace you" raid leader kind of perspective, but from an individual perspective, it's just so easy to get raid upgrades that are a net dps increase even if they make you lose a little hit, which is how I wish tank gear went. I guess mostly I'm sick of crappy rep items I have to hang on to because blizzard's upgrades are kind of dumb. Most of my dps gear's been easy to upgrade and get my stats higher/better, including hit, although my dps set is also way worse. Although I guess I also feel that hit cap, while important, is not the end-all for dps. It's good to be as close to the hit cap as possible, but if you lose a little hit to gain a bunch of whatever your primary damage stat is, or other important ratings (haste/crit/armor penetration) then there's no real reason not to go for it. I guess this is getting more into how stupid people are over stats sometimes, though.
 

Cipherr

Member
firex said:
It isn't comparable to being below the hit cap for dps. It just isn't.

I have to agree with firex here, its just not the same. Consider that you lose a person on progression raid night. The person you lose is dps and you need to replace them. Would you take a dps 20 below the hit cap? Probably if you had no choice. If you lost a tank and needed a replacement, are you taking a tank below the def cap? Hell no. The raid is called, and your officers are in the officer vent channel discussing whether or not to reopen recruitment for tanks or not so you have the backups when you need them.

Its not the same.
 

GDJustin

stuck my tongue deep inside Atlus' cookies
Puncture said:
I have to agree with firex here, its just not the same. Consider that you lose a person on progression raid night. The person you lose is dps and you need to replace them. Would you take a dps 20 below the hit cap? Probably if you had no choice. If you lost a tank and needed a replacement, are you taking a tank below the def cap? Hell no. The raid is called, and your officers are in the officer vent channel discussing whether or not to reopen recruitment for tanks or not so you have the backups when you need them.

Its not the same.

I'm not disagreeing with that. It's not the same for the raid. But it IS the same for the player. I said as much a couple posts up. My ultimate point is that any time a DPS raider drops below his hitcap, EVERYTHING stops, gear-wise. He scrambles to reach that cap again, and nothing matters till he reaches that cap.

Same as for an individual tank, when he drops below defcap, which is what Firex was saying.

Tank below Defcap is a more serious problem for a raid, that's a given. But that's because there's only one maintank. A better analogy would be this - which is worse for a raid - all of your DPS being below hitcap, or your MT being below defcap?
 

firex

Member
I think it just depends how far you're talking below the cap. I mean if your dps is all 1-2% off the hit cap, I don't see it as a big issue. If your dps is way below the hit cap to the point that enrage timers will be skirted with consistently, then yeah, I don't want dps that far below the hit cap. But really there's just a point where getting hit capped is tough, moreso than I'd say defense cap is to reach, but getting comfortably close is very easy.

But still, I guess we can all agree that raid gear is weirdly itemized. It's like they want to limit people's growth via drops until they've farmed the place dry. I'd rather they put more stuff on tokens so you don't have to get every boss's drop to reduce farming. Farming is the easiest way to get burned out on the game imo.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
By the way Blackace, I transferred my character over to Nagrand. Give a message to Hozz if you ever see me online.
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
speedpop said:
By the way Blackace, I transferred my character over to Nagrand. Give a message to Hozz if you ever see me online.

Sweet! Horde or Ally? (sorry I forgot)
 

firex

Member
Tamanon said:
Kalgan confirmed a new BG in 3.2 when it comes down the pipe, and it'll be Alterac Valley-like.
I look forward to that. I hope they also add in a new 5 man, since the patch will take forever anyway.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Blackace said:
Sweet! Horde or Ally? (sorry I forgot)
Horde Shaman.

Tamanon said:
Kalgan confirmed a new BG in 3.2 when it comes down the pipe, and it'll be Alterac Valley-like.
Although I could feel ashamed, AV is the only BG I ever play these days. It's the closest thing I'll ever get to world PVP.
 

Chris R

Member
AV used to be great, now it is basically a pve race against the other faction :lol WSG is still pure shit because games can go on forever. AB is probably the best of the "first" bgs, but I do like Strand. I can't stand Eye.

Ideally I think the next BG should just be like one big chokepoint/tug-o-warish. Not so chokepointish that AoE works, but force people to fight for a change.
 

Cipherr

Member
rhfb said:
AV used to be great, now it is basically a pve race against the other faction :lol WSG is still pure shit because games can go on forever. AB is probably the best of the "first" bgs, but I do like Strand. I can't stand Eye.

Ideally I think the next BG should just be like one big chokepoint/tug-o-warish. Not so chokepointish that AoE works, but force people to fight for a change.


Lets pray to god that this new BG is just that. 40 people at the very least, with a world pvp-esque feel. AV indeed used to be just that before they absolutely ruined it and turned it into a who can kill the lead NPC the fastest race.

Also Im starting to really feel my Uld upgrades now, as I go from the old gear to the new Ilvl stuff its a complete mess getting a new hat pants and a cape one day then reorganizing everything left and right to fixate on the hitcap. Fun, but very costly. Ill be glad when we get the place cleared so I can settle in to getting an idea on the BiS gear. But we dont have all of the bosses down yet in 25 man.
 

firex

Member
I hope the new BG is basically AoS styled. still my favorite custom map in Warcraft 3, and I wish it was adapted to a BG because that's exactly what I thought WoW BGs would be like.
 

Lain

Member
My guild more or less died. It's been 3 weeks without a raid after the guildleader stopped logging on and some people left. People simply don't log on so we can't even do Uld10.

At least with the fishing poles "nerf" I've been able to grab the awesome epic one for just 52copper and since no raids I've been able to level fishing to 300.
Also got lucky with the Oracle egg and finally got the Green Proto-drake, so I can finally ditch the Oracles (have all the pet) and work on Frenzyheart.
 

TomServo

Junior Member
funkmastergeneral said:
Edit: has anyone here managed to fish up the turtle mount yet? The last few days I've been fishing in Grizzly Hills and have managed to catch over 400 Glacial Salmon and have yet to see it :(

I've seen a few of them on our server. My RL friend who's obsessed with fishing got his in 95 casts. He felt vindicated after some of the stupidity he went through to get his Salty title. He said he was well over 1000 casts each to get a few of the items in that meta (Mr. Pinchy, Old Ironjaw, sewer rat, etc).
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Anyone know what this is about? [Just wiped the hard drive and reinstalled WoW. Long story.]:

Failed to find a suitable display device. Exiting Program.
 

Irnbru

Member
Sooo...just started wow again today...How are war's lookin guys? Just got him duel spec'd and all. Have em at lvl 72, plan to get him up to 80 in the next couple weeks or so.
 

Xabora

Junior Member
We finally got Freya down tonight!
2rwkqoj.jpg


Undermine is a bit behind on the progress but loving the new guild. :D
 
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