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[evlcookie]

I agree with ensidia on the limited tries, it's going a bit overboard. Gating the encounters was fine but now we are forced to do old content if we failed 5 attempts on a boss? That's pretty fucking dumb considering how everyone is already bored of the old content and wants something new.

 

[Evlar]

Here's what Ensidia's members think:



I'll listen the argument, but I don't necessarily buy it. I have a sneaking suspicion that the uber-elite guilds don't like it because they probably wipe a lot more than people realize.

Blizzard's stated purpose in doing this is to prevent guilds that have a lot of time on their hands, i.e. the type of guild (Ensidia) that takes two weeks off work to get World Firsts, from just attempting it 15 hours a day. I'll grant that it does extend the content longer than it normally would, but that doesn't mean there's no merit to Blizzard's stated purpose.

That appears to be it exactly- a nerf on the "world first" metagame, and I'm all in favor of it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Oh I know about the other crap, I was talking about the base materials that are purchasable.

And woo attunements, which I assume is for doing each dungeon in succession.

Clarification, the specific "attunement" for the Halls of Reflection requires that you take quests from Jaina Proudmoore/Sylvanas Windrunner in the first two and complete them. The "correct" order is Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, Halls of Reflection, but this is simply because the "end" of each dungeon has a portal that leads directly into the next. As of the last build, you could take the quest from Jaina in the Pit without having done the quest in the Forge of Souls. It simply required that you did both quests. Whether the current build not letting me in was because a new quest existed, or a bug, I don't know, but I did every quest available in the Pit of Saron and the Halls said, "You must have completed the Quest "something something in the Pit" to enter the Halls of Reflection." You CANNOT queue for the Halls of Reflection in the random LFG if you are not attuned. You also cannot queue for any of the Frozen Halls instances if you don't at least go to the Frozen Halls at least once manually.

I think we are 2 week out from 3.3 dropping, gating probably means sooner rather than later, given that, as Xabora said, you can test later encounters and heroic modes on the back end and in QA this way, but still drop content.

 

[Tamanon]

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was next week, but 2 weeks makes sense too. Definitely very soon.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I agree with ensidia on the limited tries, it's going a bit overboard. Gating the encounters was fine but now we are forced to do old content if we failed 5 attempts on a boss? That's pretty fucking dumb considering how everyone is already bored of the old content and wants something new.

I'll listen to (not necessarily agree with) the argument it's either unfair or not in the spirit of fun, but you are not forced to do anything. You do not have to play World of Warcraft.

 

[Tamanon]

http://www.wow.com/2009/11/18/patch-3-3-ptr-the-new-tier-10-purchasing-model/#continued

BTW, I REALLY love the new model for purchasing tier sets. Buy the initial piece with frost badges, then trade it in with the raid drop to upgrade. Much better than ToC's method, IMO.

 

[evlcookie]

I'll listen to (not necessarily agree with) the argument it's either unfair or not in the spirit of fun, but you are not forced to do anything. You do not have to play World of Warcraft.

Sure, but that's usually not how guilds work unless it's casual. Which seems to be what this system is now saying. No one needs to raid for more than a night per week now which is fine by me, but since guilds tend to have 3 or 4 nights of scheduled raiding you then trudge through old content to pass the time.

Considering how easy it is to get T9 equiv gear i wonder if that's the point? You do your ICC attempts on Wednesday pass or fail you probably wont be back on thursday. Do all the old content on alts or whatever over the next 3 days for badges badges badges, gear up, win?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sure, but that's usually not how guilds work unless it's casual. Which seems to be what this system is now saying. No one needs to raid for more than a night per week now which is fine by me, but since guilds tend to have 3 or 4 nights of scheduled raiding you then trudge through old content to pass the time.

Considering how easy it is to get T9 equiv gear i wonder if that's the point? You do your ICC attempts on Wednesday pass or fail you probably wont be back on thursday. Do all the old content on alts or whatever over the next 3 days for badges badges badges, gear up, win?

Possibly, but you're also assuming a lot of things, such as, that the first seven bosses will be trivial.

Also, the attempt limited encounters don't begin until Phase 2 of the Icecrown rollout, so you'll only be attempt limited starting on Boss #8.

That appears to be it exactly- a nerf on the "world first" metagame, and I'm all in favor of it.

Even more than that, it affects the "races" to server firsts, which are more realistic goals for most guilds.

 

[FLEABttn]

Even more than that, it affects the "races" to server firsts, which are more realistic goals for most guilds.

Most guilds that compete with others? I just don't think "server first" is what motivates most guilds.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Most guilds that compete with others? I just don't think "server first" is what motivates most guilds.

Huh? I don't get what you mean. 99% of guilds don't even have a remotely realistic shot at World First anything. Go back and take a look at the "world first" and hell, even 2-10, rankings. It's the same guilds over and over.

The difference in skill between Ensidia, and say, whatever the top guild is on my server, is really quite vast.

 

[Tamanon]

Eh, I'd say the difference in skill for Ensidia isn't so much their players but that they have all 25 players skilled as opposed to most guilds where you have 5-10 subpar raiders.

 

[FLEABttn]

Huh? I don't get what you mean.

99% of guilds don't even have a realistic shot at World First anything. The difference in skill between Ensidia, and say, whatever the top guild is on my server, is really quite vast.

it affects the "races" to server firsts, which are more realistic goals for most guilds.

I understood this comment as a realistic goal for most guilds are "server firsts". Which is certainly a motivator for some guilds, but I don't think most.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I understood this comment as a realistic goal for most guilds are "server firsts". Which is certainly a motivator for some guilds, but I don't think most.

Are you saying most raiding guilds just want to see all the content and beat it, get loot, etc.? I would agree with that, but I think most servers still have healthy competition for Server Firsts and that the attempt limiting has a pretty big effect on that.

 

[FLEABttn]

Are you saying most raiding guilds just want to see all the content and beat it, get loot, etc.? I would agree with that, but I think most servers still have healthy competition for Server Firsts and that the attempt limiting has a pretty big effect on that.

I just take an issue with the quantification of "most", as in more than half of all raid guilds have "server first" as a motivator, If this were vanilla, I'd agree, if this were TBC, I probably wouldn't disagree, but with the proliferation of 10 man raids, I just don't feel that competition anymore to that extent. Some raid guilds? Sure. Half plus one? Naw.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just take an issue with the quantification of "most", as in more than half of all raid guilds have "server first" as a motivator, If this were vanilla, I'd agree, if this were TBC, I probably wouldn't disagree, but with the proliferation of 10 man raids, I just don't feel that competition anymore to that extent. Some raid guilds? Sure. Half plus one? Naw.

No, I don't mean it as though that's the ultimate goal for all guilds; I'm just saying it's a realistic goal and that the limited attempt system makes more of a difference on the server level, obviously because there's a lot more server firsts than world firsts.

 

[FLEABttn]

Ahh, gotcha.

 

[traveler]

Tier 10 purchase model looks perfect. I liked 9's, but this fixes the main problem with it.

Back on the gating and limited attempts topic, this is just one of those artificial lengthening moves that I kind of accept as part of the cost of playing in this genre but never agree with. Frankly, it's fundamentally poor game design and I don't see how any gamer can like this sort of thing, hardcore raider or otherwise. BUT I understand that, at some point, the business model has to infringe on the game and this just happens to be one of those cases.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Tier 10 purchase model looks perfect. I liked 9's, but this fixes the main problem with it.

Back on the gating and limited attempts topic, this is just one of those artificial lengthening moves that I kind of accept as part of the cost of playing in this genre but never agree with. Frankly, it's fundamentally poor game design and I don't see how any gamer can like this sort of thing, hardcore raider or otherwise. BUT I understand that, at some point, the business model has to infringe on the game and this just happens to be one of those cases.

I don't know what's worse, the evil Pavlovian scheduled-reward scheme, or the fact we know it's an evil Pavlovian scheduled-reward scheme and continue to pay for it.

 

[Epix]

Tier 10 purchase model looks perfect. I liked 9's, but this fixes the main problem with it.

What's the purchase model for T10?

 

[Xabora]

Current PTR cost for Primordial Saronite: 28 Emblems of Frost. Good luck farming that. .

 

[traveler]

^
My reaction as well. I was hoping for the standard 15 emblem cost.

What's the purchase model for T10?

Instead of buying the higher level tier gear with Emblems plus whatever the new Trophy is, you buy the lower level tier gear with emblems and then upgrade it with just the trophy once you obtain it.

 

[Epix]

^
My reaction as well. I was hoping for the standard 15 emblem cost.



Instead of buying the higher level tier gear with Emblems plus whatever the new Trophy is, you buy the lower level tier gear with emblems and then upgrade it with just the trophy once you obtain it.

Does it require that you've already purchased the lower quality tier piece with emblems first?

 

[Tamanon]

Does it require that you've already purchased the lower quality tier piece with emblems first?

Yes.

But this way you're not paying emblems twice, or having to save them in case you get the drop. This way you just buy your piece when you're able to and upgrade it when you get the drop.

 

[Acid08]

I did my first AV yesterday. Was so much fun and epic as hell. Too bad the Horde on my server seem to be terrible. Done 5 of them so far and we've won 1.

 

[AceBandage]

Patch on a Wednesday?
What madness is this?


EDIT: Oh pre-patch. Guess that explains it.

 

[traveler]

Patch on a Wednesday?
What madness is this?

What? Explain!

 

[Tamanon]

It's just the background downloader starting that's all.

 

[AceBandage]

It's just the background downloader starting that's all.

It's the pre-patch for 3.3 yeah.

 

[Angry Grimace]

What? Explain!

Background Downloader "preloads" terrain, zones etc. data., and then the patch itself will be completed that much faster when it drops in ~2 weeks.

Did I mention it's time to start emergency dumping your Crusader Orbs?

 

[Xabora]

Did I mention it's time to start emergency dumping your Crusader Orbs?

I've been doing that for weeks now.

 

[Angry Grimace]

http://i45.tinypic.com/1zgl5z.jpg[IMG]


I've been doing that for weeks now. :P[/QUOTE]
50 bucks says a very not statistically insignificant portion of the playing population will believe that is real and fact.

 

[Cipherr]

Here's what Ensidia's members think:



I'll listen the argument, but I don't necessarily buy it. I have a sneaking suspicion that the uber-elite guilds don't like it because they probably wipe a lot more than people realize.

Blizzard's stated purpose in doing this is to prevent guilds that have a lot of time on their hands, i.e. the type of guild (Ensidia) that takes two weeks off work to get World Firsts, from just attempting it 15 hours a day. I'll grant that it does extend the content longer than it normally would, but that doesn't mean there's no merit to Blizzard's stated purpose.

Agree 100% with you man. Especially for the world and server first meta's. This is going to boil those "First" achievements down to which guild is the most disciplined and well played. Rather than who has the most hardcore gamers with the most free time.

Its really going to strain the uber guilds into the absolute best getting the achievements. And I forsee some shuffling in terms of which guilds get those titles now. Its going to be something else man.


Orrrrrr it may just boil it down to which guild have people with reliable internet connections that dont go out during fights..... Inc nerdrage from guilds getting close to kills on their last attempt and the worldserver goes down.

GG!

 

[Tamanon]

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/49623/shadowmourne/

Hey, that's not too bad of a weapon at all!

3 Red gem slots too with a strength socket bonus.:lol

 

[VaLiancY]

Ensidia's tears must be tasty.

Edit - +223 STR with 3 gem slots? Wow.

 

[Xabora]

Hai2U

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

1) I give a flying fuck at a rolling donut at when or how often a bleeding-edge guild beats bosses. They beat bosses fast; that's what they do. It's a pointless dragging down for no good reason. Anyone who cares more than "oh, neat. Good for them." is a dick-rider or an envious loser and needs to calm down.

2) "Several Weeks"?!?! Not "a week", not "2 weeks", not "a few weeks", SEVERAL? Fuck you. I wanna kill tough bosses, Blizz. What else is there? New arena season wont start for a while. Start up alt #384913? Shit, THESE WONT EVEN BE HARD MODES. You can't even do those too to alleviate boredom. Fuck that.

3) Limited attempts of a SMALL size is not only going to bite random bleeding edgers in the ass, it'll bite guilds of moderate skill as well. If it's less than 50 per (and for those of you who've done ToGC works, you'll get to Anub will 40+ attempts easily), it won't be pretty on HM. Going to be fuuuuuuuuuun for those who make a mental mistake or DC on those attempts...

4)

* There will be no explicit rewards for defeating the Lich King with a specific number of attempts remaining as there was with Trial of the Grand Crusader. There will also not be an achievement to complete Icecrown Citadel without being defeated by a boss encounter, or letting a raid member die. (i.e. A Tribute to Insanity).

Good. That shit was cancer.

 

[Belfast]

1) I give a flying fuck at a rolling donut at when or how often a bleeding-edge guild beats bosses. They beat bosses fast; that's what they do. It's a pointless dragging down for no good reason. Anyone who cares more than "oh, neat. Good for them." is a dick-rider or an envious loser and needs to calm down.

2) "Several Weeks"?!?! Not "a week", not "2 weeks", not "a few weeks", SEVERAL? Fuck you. I wanna kill tough bosses, Blizz. What else is there? New arena season wont start for a while. Start up alt #384913? Shit, THESE WONT EVEN BE HARD MODES. You can't even do those too to alleviate boredom. Fuck that.

3) Limited attempts of a SMALL size is not only going to bite random bleeding edgers in the ass, it'll bite guilds of moderate skill as well. If it's less than 50 per (and for those of you who've done ToGC works, you'll get to Anub will 40+ attempts easily), it won't be pretty on HM. Going to be fuuuuuuuuuun for those who make a mental mistake or DC on those attempts...

4)

Good. That shit was cancer.

I don't think of myself as a dick-rider or anything, but when the top raiding guilds in the world complete a dungeon on Day 1 (or within the first few) of its release, the community gets upset and believes that the content is easy, and therefore, worthless.

Is that a fair assessment of the content? No, not really. But sometimes what people *think* means more to them than what's true, and that's not good for how people perceive WoW as a whole.

Besides, my problem isn't so much that they're clearing content as it is that there's even a "competitive raiding" community in the first place. It just seems so asinine and it's something I don't want associated with the game if it can be helped.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't think of myself as a dick-rider or anything, but when the top raiding guilds in the world complete a dungeon on Day 1 (or within the first few) of its release, the community gets upset and believes that the content is easy, and therefore, worthless.

Is that a fair assessment of the content? No, not really. But sometimes what people *think* means more to them than what's true, and that's not good for how people perceive WoW as a whole.

Besides, my problem isn't so much that they're clearing content as it is that there's even a "competitive raiding" community in the first place. It just seems so asinine and it's something I don't want associated with the game if it can be helped.

The rampant, looooooong gating is (new favorite word incoming) contrived, and why? Cuz people get in their heads that it impacts their game.

Note also that inter-guild competiton wasn't promoted, it just happened. Note how that form of inter-guild connection is somehow less OK or natural than envy-based attention from guilds that may not even be on the same server as the objects of their fascination.

Note again, that as a side effect of Normal Mode, of course Premo is going to bang-bus bosses super-fast. Again, contrived fix to an opinion.

 

[cubicle47b]

I like the gating system. It kind of sucked in ToC because you only got 1 new boss a week and normal modes were so easy but it was a lot better than trying to learn 13 bosses in the first couple weeks in Ulduar (10 and 25 man).

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Here's the thing: no one is beating Icecrown now. Why do people treat it as different if it is being gated?

So some particular date a month from now is the first time someone will be able to see Arthas rather than sometime in the next couple of weeks. What's the big deal? That's the schedule for content release, in the same way the content hasn't been released right now.

The whole argument seems like entitlement crybaby stuff to me. A "but I want it now, mom!" sort of thing.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I like the gating system. It kind of sucked in ToC because you only got 1 new boss a week and normal modes were so easy but it was a lot better than trying to learn 13 bosses in the first couple weeks in Ulduar (10 and 25 man).

True; we went in with the whole dungeon a possibility week one. Kinda nerve-wracking, but it's a side effect of how "overgeared" you entered T8.

Here's the thing: no one is beating Icecrown now. Why do people treat it as different if it is being gated?

So some particular date a month from now is the first time someone will be able to see Arthas rather than sometime in the next couple of weeks. What's the big deal? That's the schedule for content release, in the same way the content hasn't been released right now.

The whole argument seems like entitlement crybaby stuff to me. A "but I want it now, mom!" sort of thing.

"To Me" is not a get out of jail free card for not understanding the positions, facts, and reasoning behind the argument.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

"To Me" is not a get out of jail free card for not understanding the positions, facts, and reasoning behind the argument.

No, I think I got it right when I summed it up as "but I want it now, mom!"

Not "a week", not "2 weeks", not "a few weeks", SEVERAL? Fuck you. I wanna kill tough bosses, Blizz.

 

[traveler]

No, I think I got it right when I summed it up as "but I want it now, mom!"

But why shouldn't we? This isn't a case of more time for better quality, it's a yet another way in which Blizzard is artificially extending the game, which is, as I said earlier, fundamentally poor game design. Look, I get that I'm just going to have to deal with it because that's the nature of the genre, but I think considering mine (and what is likely many others') viewpoint "whiny" and "entitled" is pretty unreasonable.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The rampant, looooooong gating is (new favorite word incoming) contrived, and why? Cuz people get in their heads that it impacts their game.

Note also that inter-guild competiton wasn't promoted, it just happened. Note how that form of inter-guild connection is somehow less OK or natural than envy-based attention from guilds that may not even be on the same server as the objects of their fascination.

Note again, that as a side effect of Normal Mode, of course Premo is going to bang-bus bosses super-fast. Again, contrived fix to an opinion.

I'm not even sure which side you're arguing for, much less what.

 

[Kletian]

Gating I have no problem with.

Limited attempts I have no problem with, especially as a member of a casual guild. The number of attempts now give me a reason to say fuck you to my stubborn ass guild when they feel that, after sucking for 13+ wipes, that we might get it this next time.

My repair bill likes this change :lol

 

[Yaweee]

I am very curious what % of raiding guilds will actually have cleared the previous section's boss before the next section opens up. Don't most raid encounters take more than 5 tries to learn? Or 10 (2 weeks)? Or 15 (3 weeks)?

 

[Bregor]

This isn't a case of more time for better quality, it's a yet another way in which Blizzard is artificially extending the game, which is, as I said earlier, fundamentally poor game design.

I disagree. I think it is good game design. The problem with the WoW/Everquest style MMO is always supplying the players insatiable demand for new content. Even a huge company like Blizzard has limits on how fast it can create new content. Which is better - to release it all in one big chunk and have many players complete it so fast that they become bored, lose interest in the game, and quit - or gate it and keep something interesting waiting for them ever couple of weeks.

I remember the long, long wait between Black Temple and Sunwell. My raiding guild nearly fell apart at that time as players left out of boredom over farm content. Many other guilds on my server did fall apart.

Since then I have come to a conclusion: A progressing guild is a happy guild. Keeping a raiding team together is difficult, and the morale boost from defeating a new boss regularly helps immeasurably in doing this. There have been times, in fact, that I have thought it would be better for my guild to slow down on its own, so as not to exhaust the content. But that wouldn't work of course: players want to get at and defeat any available bosses as quickly as possible.

If there must be 4 months between each content patch, I would much rather spend the 2 months after each release slowly accessing new content, and then have the remainder of the time to farm / beat hard modes rather than the alternative of beating all the new bosses in 2 weeks and then having 3.5 months of the same content over and over.

 

[Blackface]

Here's the thing: no one is beating Icecrown now. Why do people treat it as different if it is being gated?

So some particular date a month from now is the first time someone will be able to see Arthas rather than sometime in the next couple of weeks. What's the big deal? That's the schedule for content release, in the same way the content hasn't been released right now.

The whole argument seems like entitlement crybaby stuff to me. A "but I want it now, mom!" sort of thing.

The entire instance should be unlocked IMO. If you want people to have to kill arthas before you can do hardmodes, then so be it.

At the end of the day, people pay every month to play this game. They have been paying every month for this very content patch. Content should be unlocked, and able to be completed by whoever can do so. It's not "entitlement crybaby stuff", when you have paid for content you aren't allowed to see. Not because it isn't finished (though a couple bosses aren't), but because Blizzard doesn't want someone to go in there and clear it in a week or two.

All staggering a release of a dungeon does, is slow down progression of guilds. Thats why Blizzard does it. They don't want their content cleared in a couple weeks, and people to quit. If you remember before WOTLK, many guilds finished BT and ended up quitting the game. It got so boring doing the same thing repeatedly that people just quit. Many other guilds didn't even bother going into Sunwell, because the expansion was right around the corner. Many more guilds got bored of Sunwell do to a staggered release as well.

Blizzards fix to this problem is to artificially inflate the length of Icecrown. Instead of making it longer, more in-depth, with extremely difficult hard-modes, they are artificially increasing the length of it.

Blizzard has also stated it could be several months before the opening of different wings, not a week or two.

I can see the arguments on both sides of the fence and both are justified.

On terms of attempts on bosses. This was mainly done to hurt the high-end top 100 raiding guilds. They don't attempt a boss a couple times and down it. They bang their hand on a wall for hours and hours a day until the fight is completed. It ends up hurting all guilds who do this, but IMO promotes a better way to raid.

I am not against attempts, but I think 5 attempts is to little. You have a couple dc's, or one bad pull and 20 percent of your attempts are gone.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

At the end of the day, people pay every month to play this game.

Thanks for backing up my argument that it's all just a wild sense of entitlement.

If the money to play isn't worth paying, then it isn't worth paying. Blizzard isn't holding your bank account hostage, and they have no responsibility for meeting anyone's demands.

The only argument I can agree with is that a limit of 5 attempts can be silly and unfortunate if outside circumstances cause problems.

 

[Blackface]

If there must be 4 months between each content patch, I would much rather spend the 2 months after each release slowly accessing new content, and then have the remainder of the time to farm / beat hard modes rather than the alternative of beating all the new bosses in 2 weeks and then having 3.5 months of the same content over and over.

This argument doesn't make sense to me. You are doing the same content over and over and over and over again waiting for the other wings of icecrown to unlock. Then once the second wing unlocks, you are doing the same content over and over and over again until the third wing unlocks. It's no different then if you were to clear all of Icecrown in two weeks, then go back in and do hardmodes. At the end of the day you are still doing the content repeatedly. But instead of doing hardmodes, you are forced to do thew normal mode every week for god knows how long until the next wing is unlocked.