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[Blackface]

Thanks for backing up my argument that it's all just a wild sense of entitlement.

If the money to play isn't worth paying, then it isn't worth paying. Blizzard isn't holding your bank account hostage, and they have no responsibility for meeting anyone's demands.

The only argument I can agree with is that a limit of 5 attempts can be silly and unfortunate if outside circumstances cause problems.

It really isn't a weird sense of entitlement. You have already spent the money for this patch. Blizzard had originally said they would not stagger the release of Icecrown. Then, they changed their minds and decided a lockout and an attempt per boss method would be best. The mechanics for attempts per boss were not even on PTR until last week.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It really isn't a weird sense of entitlement. You have already spent the money for this patch. Blizzard had originally said they would not stagger the release of Icecrown. Then, they changed their minds and decided a lockout and an attempt per boss method would be best. The mechanics for attempts per boss were not even on PTR until last week.

The PTR isn't something you're entitled to nor something that is even necessarily supposed to reflect the status of the Live servers.

I don't believe Blizzard ever said they wouldn't stagger Icecrown, in fact, I believe they said the opposite.

 

[Bregor]

This argument doesn't make sense to me. You are doing the same content over and over and over and over again waiting for the other wings of icecrown to unlock. Then once the second wing unlocks, you are doing the same content over and over and over again until the third wing unlocks. It's no different then if you were to clear all of Icecrown in two weeks, then go back in and do hardmodes. At the end of the day you are still doing the content repeatedly. But instead of doing hardmodes, you are forced to do thew normal mode every week for god knows how long until the next wing is unlocked.

Wrong. If the content is gated then every time a new wing unlocks you experience new boss fights and get the excitement of defeating a new boss for the first time.

Its not about whether or not you have cleared a boss before. Its about how long it's been since you did something new. Raiding guilds enjoy new bosses and beating them for the first time. The better ones also enjoy hard modes (although not as much, because even the better constructed hard modes are largely the same fight as before). Raiders enjoy getting good loot (don't let anyone tell you otherwise - everyone likes it). But most don't enjoy farming content for a long time. (Especially when everyone has most of their gear and it starts getting DEd).

The sooner all of this is accessible, the sooner it will be consumed, and the sooner it becomes a thing of the past - at which point you have nothing new to do until the next content patch. That doesn't appeal to me - I want to have new bosses to fight regularly, not just because I enjoy it myself, but also because I am convinced that my guild is healthier when it works that way.

Keep in mind that unless Blizzard changes their mind, this is the last raid content before Cataclysm.

When do you think Cataclysm will come out? March? IMO, May is the earliest ... and that is probably optimistic.

 

[Blackface]

The PTR isn't something you're entitled to nor something that is even necessarily supposed to reflect the status of the Live servers.

I don't believe Blizzard ever said they wouldn't stagger Icecrown, in fact, I believe they said the opposite.

At the beginning they said they would not stagger it, and they would not stagger any instances after TOC. This was the message once TOC came out. It eventually changed, but people should be used to Blizzard's constant flip-flopping (which they are entitled to do)

At the end of the day, there is no argument for Blizzard as to why they choose to stagger the release of an instance outside of, the content is simply not finished yet. Which is fine, but they never admit it, and act like they are doing it for the greater good of the community, which is hilarious.

All I can hope is by using this staggered release schedule that the bosses are not buggy as fuck, and broken. Like they have been in almost every instance released. I know the beginning ones are, or, at least are very bugged on the PTR. So hopefully they get fixed once the patch hits, and before the more casual guilds get to them like TOC was.

Either way, I couldn't careless. But like I said, I can see both arguments of the consumer.

 

[Angry Grimace]

At the beginning they said they would not stagger it, and they would not stagger any instances after TOC. This was the message once TOC came out. It eventually changed, but people should be used to Blizzard's constant flip-flopping (which they are entitled to do)

At the end of the day, there is no argument for Blizzard as to why they choose to stagger the release of an instance outside of, the content is simply not finished yet. Which is fine, but they never admit it, and act like they are doing it for the greater good of the community, which is hilarious.

All I can hope is by using this staggered release schedule that the bosses are not buggy as fuck, and broken. Like they have been in almost every instance released. I know the beginning ones are, or, at least are very bugged on the PTR. So hopefully they get fixed once the patch hits, and before the more casual guilds get to them like TOC was.

Either way, I couldn't careless. But like I said, I can see both arguments of the consumer.

I don't think they said that at all.

 

[Blackface]

Wrong. If the content is gated then every time a new wing unlocks you experience new boss fights and get the excitement of defeating a new boss for the first time.

Its not about whether or not you have cleared a boss before. Its about how long it's been since you did something new. Raiding guilds enjoy new bosses and beating them for the first time. The better ones also enjoy hard modes (although not as much, because even the better constructed hard modes are largely the same fight as before). Raiders enjoy getting good loot (don't let anyone tell you otherwise - everyone likes it). But most don't enjoy farming content for a long time. (Especially when everyone has most of their gear and it starts getting DEd).

The sooner all of this is accessible, the sooner it will be consumed, and the sooner it becomes a thing of the past - at which point you have nothing new to do until the next content patch. That doesn't appeal to me - I want to have new bosses to fight regularly, not just because I enjoy it myself, but also because I am convinced that my guild is healthier when it works that way.

Keep in mind that unless Blizzard changes their mind, this is the last raid content before Cataclysm.

When do you think Cataclysm will come out? March? IMO, May is the earliest ... and that is probably optimistic.

You are still doing the same content over and over again waiting for the next wing to unlock. They are luring you like a cat following a mouse and making you pay every month so you can see the rest of the content. How is this a better way of doing things.

Like I said, you are doing the same content over and over again either way. All staggering the release does is make it so really good guilds get bored even faster then before, because they don't have access to challenging content for months on end.

 

[Tamanon]

You are still doing the same content over and over again waiting for the next wing to unlock. They are luring you like a cat following a mouse and making you pay every month so you can see the rest of the content. How is this a better way of doing things.

Like I said, you are doing the same content over and over again either way. All staggering the release does is make it so really good guilds get bored even faster then before, because they don't have access to challenging content for months on end.

Actually, if all you wanted to do was see the content you could've already. The only thing you're missing is the Lich King fight, and for that you can just come back after everything's open.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

They are luring you like a cat following a mouse and making you pay every month so you can see the rest of the content.

Yeah, that's kind of how this entire game and genre have worked since the beginning, bro.

 

[joelseph]

It is a tough situation for the Dev, either way they go some people are going to be bored/frustrated.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You are still doing the same content over and over again waiting for the next wing to unlock. They are luring you like a cat following a mouse and making you pay every month so you can see the rest of the content. How is this a better way of doing things.

Like I said, you are doing the same content over and over again either way. All staggering the release does is make it so really good guilds get bored even faster then before, because they don't have access to challenging content for months on end.

Because you're arguing this from a flawed perspective; i.e. that Blizzard is a profit-making entity; therefore nothing they say or do has any merit outside of how it affects their profits. There is merit to gating and attempt limiting from an objective standpoint, both from the perspective of their ends and on the players ends to do this.

You're also making an argument that Blizzard is doing something to punish the top 100 guilds; but in reality, everything about this expansion has taught us that Blizzard rarely does that anymore. The game is more casual friendly than it ever has been; my guess would be that the ratio of players that down a boss in Icecrown vs. the number of people that downed a boss in Sunwell Plateau is going to be very high.

You make it sound like Blizzard could just pump out a couple of huge Raid dungeons next week if they really wanted to. It's the same issue that drives government conspiracy nuts; unrealistic faith in the capabilities of the men and women in charge; the CIA doesn't really have the manpower to listen to every single phone call, and Blizzard doesn't have the ability to put out enough content to satisfy it's player's demand for content, which by the way, in reality the amount of available content is quite substantial.

 

[Blackface]

Yeah, that's kind of how this entire game and genre have worked since the beginning, bro.

I have been playing MMO's long before WoW came out (sad but true :lol ). So yes I understand how the genre works.

I was talking about content within one patch. Staggering didn't really start until the last instance before WOTLK, then trailed off until TOC. Even Ulduar wasn't staggered.

 

[Blackface]

Because you're arguing this from a flawed perspective; i.e. that Blizzard is a profit-making entity; therefore nothing they say or do has any merit outside of how it affects their profits. There is merit to gating and attempt limiting from an objective standpoint, both from the perspective of their ends and on the players ends to do this.

You're also making an argument that Blizzard is doing something to punish the top 100 guilds; but in reality, everything about this expansion has taught us that Blizzard rarely does that anymore. The game is more casual friendly than it ever has been; my guess would be that the ratio of players that down a boss in Icecrown vs. the number of people that downed a boss in Sunwell Plateau is going to be very high.

You make it sound like Blizzard could just pump out a couple of huge Raid dungeons next week if they really wanted to. It's the same issue that drives government conspiracy nuts; unrealistic faith in the capabilities of the men and women in charge; the CIA doesn't really have the manpower to listen to every single phone call, and Blizzard doesn't have the ability to put out enough content to satisfy it's player's demand for content, which by the way, in reality the amount of available content is quite substantial.

I am not arguing it against Blizzard as a company. I am arguing it from a consumer "fun" perspective.

I am fine with content being casual now. I really like Blizzard is going in that direction.

My point was you are doing the same content over and over again regardless of if they chose to unlock wings at different times (this was being argued). You experience new content later in the content pathces life, but you will still be killing all the bosses repeatedly waiting for the next wing to come out. The same way you would be killing them repeatedly if they were all unlocked. Blizzard staggering the release of wings doesn't mean you won't be doing the same content over and over again. You just do it in a different way now.

I am not arguing about how fast Blizzard puts out content, or that Blizzard is some big bad company. :lol :lol

 

[Evlar]

I fail to see how locking content accomplishes the supposed objective of milking players who just want to kill Arthas for their money. It seems that anyone in that predicament could simply cancel their account now, wait until a few months before Cataclysm when Arthas will surely be on farm by the majority of raiding guilds, resubscribe and spend a few weeks gearing up/applying for a new guild, and take the bastard down.

The vast majority won't do that, of course, because they still in some fashion enjoy playing the game and the rate that new content is released week by week is a relatively minor detail to them. This is the heart of the flaw in these "milking us for our money" arguments: the actions that are determined to be so driven by greed are in reality inconsequential to changes in subscription revenue.

 

[Blackface]

I fail to see how locking content accomplishes the supposed objective of milking players who just want to kill Arthas for their money. It seems that anyone in that predicament could simply cancel their account now, wait until a few months before Cataclysm when Arthas will surely be on farm by the majority of raiding guilds, resubscribe and spend a few weeks gearing up/applying for a new guild, and take the bastard down.

The vast majority won't do that, of course, because they still in some fashion enjoy playing the game and the rate that new content is released week by week is a relatively minor detail to them. This is the heart of the flaw in these "milking us for our money" arguments: the actions that are determined to be so driven by greed are in reality inconsequential to changes in subscription revenue.

I am not saying they are purposely doing it. I am saying you are paying every month to wait for content that should already be finished. As opposed to doing it, then quitting. People have a lot of time invested in this game.

I understand Blizzard stance on this. They won't want what happened in BT, to happen now. BT gets released, it gets cleared, people quit the game. Not a few people, but truck loads of people. By making Icecrown unlock over the course of many months, these same people that would have quit because they were done the content, won't quit because they want to finish the content.

It's not rocket science. They aren't milking the consumer per say, but they are encouraging you to keep your subscription active. For the same reasons they rarely ban people who use fishing bots, or afk bots in av. It's not worth losing the subscription fee over.

Another reason they are doing it is because the bosses are not done. Maybe they will be finished in a couple weeks when the patch hits, but last week on PTR they are broken and crashing games/servers.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I am not arguing it against Blizzard as a company. I am arguing it from a consumer "fun" perspective.

I am fine with content being casual now. I really like Blizzard is going in that direction.

My point was you are doing the same content over and over again regardless of if they chose to unlock wings at different times (this was being argued). You experience new content later in the content pathces life, but you will still be killing all the bosses repeatedly waiting for the next wing to come out. The same way you would be killing them repeatedly if they were all unlocked. Blizzard staggering the release of wings doesn't mean you won't be doing the same content over and over again. You just do it in a different way now.

I am not arguing about how fast Blizzard puts out content, or that Blizzard is some big bad company. :lol :lol

Except that this is predicated on the idea that Instant Gratification is automatically better because it is instant; and that no one, anywhere, could possibly believe otherwise and no such argument has any merit at all. Which is untrue.

 

[Bregor]

My point was you are doing the same content over and over again regardless of if they chose to unlock wings at different times (this was being argued). You experience new content later in the content pathces life, but you will still be killing all the bosses repeatedly waiting for the next wing to come out. The same way you would be killing them repeatedly if they were all unlocked. Blizzard staggering the release of wings doesn't mean you won't be doing the same content over and over again. You just do it in a different way now.

No, if it is gated YOU GET NEW CONTENT WHENEVER A GATE IS OPENED. You can't claim that content that has just been unlocked is the same old content that the guild has been doing it over and over - it is clearly new content. Of course, over time it will become old content - but then another gate will be unlocked and there will be more new content.

Thats the point of gating it, insuring that players have something new regularly.

Its like arguing that because you pay for HBO that they should release in a single week all of the new season of your favorite series that they just finished filming. Not only would it be stupid from HBO's point of view, but it would be for you as well. Now you may say 'That would be great, I would love to watch it all at once!' , but what would you do for the rest of the year? (Fans suffer enough between seasons as it is, imagine if the wait was 51 weeks.) By releasing it a little at a not only does HBO keep viewers watching, but they provide a constant source of entertainment.

In fact, on reflecting upon the whole matter, it makes me believe that WoW is, in fact, the most successful example of episodic content in the industry. Where they fall short is that they don't use their old content effectively, but that's another story.

 

[hobart]

Except that this is predicated on the idea that Instant Gratification is automatically better because it is instant; and that no one, anywhere, could possibly believe otherwise and no such argument has any merit at all. Which is untrue.

Yes.

Seeing as how we're on GAF and gaming is one of our major (if not THE major) hobbies we have... I think we can all agree that "replay-ablity" is one of the hallmarks of a GREAT game.

I know I'm not talking out of turn here... but I would venture to say that a majority of gamers... and GAFers... enjoy games that they can play over and over. That's one of the appealing aspects of an MMO (specifically WoW) that has kept me subscribed for such a long time: the fact that the game and the world are ever-changing and offering new content as the weeks and months pass by.

So, Blackface, if you are looking to merely FINISH and BEAT a game and then move on to another game... perhaps you are playing in the wrong genre? or at the very least, looking for specific aspects in a genre that really aren't that genre's interest.

And, 100%, 5 wipes seems pretty laughable. I hope they bump it to about 10 a wing... with the way lag effects ALL raiders... I would hope they are a little more lenient...... unless the content is laughably easy. Then... well... I suppose it's moot.

 

[Tamanon]

Judging from Matticus' impressions of Saurfang, maybe one or two guilds might beat the first wing the first week, but that wipe limit is going to hurt.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yes.

Seeing as how we're on GAF and gaming is one of our major (if not THE major) hobbies we have... I think we can all agree that "replay-ablity" is one of the hallmarks of a GREAT game.

I know I'm not talking out of turn here... but I would venture to say that a majority of gamers... and GAFers... enjoy games that they can play over and over. That's one of the appealing aspects of an MMO (specifically WoW) that has kept me subscribed for such a long time: the fact that the game and the world are ever-changing and offering new content as the weeks and months pass by.

So, Blackface, if you are looking to merely FINISH and BEAT a game and then move on to another game... perhaps you are playing in the wrong genre? or at the very least, looking for specific aspects in a genre that really aren't that genre's interest.

And, 100%, 5 wipes seems pretty laughable. I hope they bump it to about 10 a wing... with the way lag effects ALL raiders... I would hope they are a little more lenient...... unless the content is laughably easy. Then... well... I suppose it's moot.

The part I'd like to add is that the Limited Attempts don't even start until the 8th boss, and if you actually beat that boss, in this case Professor FarnsworthPutricide, you would be done raiding for that week anyways.

It's actually quite irrelevant until you get to the point in which the Lich King is released and the sum of those wipes gets relevant. But in reality, a guild of any skill shouldn't be blowing their attempts on Prof. Putricide and the Blood Queen anymore by the time Sindragosa and the Lich King are released.

Judging from Matticus' impressions of Saurfang, maybe one or two guilds might beat the first wing the first week, but that wipe limit is going to hurt.

Saurfang doesn't have a wipe limit; limited attempts don't start until Professor Putricide, which won't even be out until the first gate is opened.

The Attempt Limited bosses are Putricide, Blood Queen Lana'thiel, Sindragosa and Arthas.

 

[Tamanon]

Sindragosa looks like it'll be easy if you just have 25 raiders that notice their boss mods. Even 1 that doesn't could get you killed.:lol

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sindragosa looks like it'll be easy if you just have 25 raiders that notice their boss mods. Even 1 that doesn't could get you killed.:lol

So hardest boss in WoW?

 

[Tamanon]

My raid group will certainly take forever on it. I mean it took us weeks on Yogg because people couldn't see giant slow moving clouds in predictable patterns.

 

[Blackface]

Except that this is predicated on the idea that Instant Gratification is automatically better because it is instant; and that no one, anywhere, could possibly believe otherwise and no such argument has any merit at all. Which is untrue.

I specifically stated, numerous times, which you seem to not read, that I see the argument from both sides of the fence. It does not change the fact there is absolutely no point to stagger the release of Icecrown unless Blizzard is purposely trying to keep people playing. I have yet to hear an argument otherwise.

No, if it is gated YOU GET NEW CONTENT WHENEVER A GATE IS OPENED. You can't claim that content that has just been unlocked is the same old content that the guild has been doing it over and over - it is clearly new content. Of course, over time it will become old content - but then another gate will be unlocked and there will be more new content.

Thats the point of gating it, insuring that players have something new regularly.

Its like arguing that because you pay for HBO that they should release in a single week all of the new season of your favorite series that they just finished filming. Not only would it be stupid from HBO's point of view, but it would be for you as well. Now you may say 'That would be great, I would love to watch it all at once!' , but what would you do for the rest of the year? (Fans suffer enough between seasons as it is, imagine if the wait was 51 weeks.) By releasing it a little at a not only does HBO keep viewers watching, but they provide a constant source of entertainment.

In fact, on reflecting upon the whole matter, it makes me believe that WoW is, in fact, the most successful example of episodic content in the industry. Where they fall short is that they don't use their old content effectively, but that's another story.
Today 06:54 PM

A concept you seem to not understand, is this. What are you doing when you are waiting the potential month-two months for the next wing of Icecrown to unlock? You are doing the same old content, over and over again. Regardless of if new content comes out two months after Icecrown is released, you are still doing the same content repeatedly until the second wing unlocks. It's really a simple concept. You spend the same amount of time on a specific boss to kill it regardless of when that boss unlocks. So lets say your guild kills each boss in Icecrown after an average of five attempts. Regardless of if the content unlocks over the course of 7 months, or if it's available immediately, your guild would have still taken 60 attempts to clear Icecrown. So every kill and wipe in between those 60 attempts is you clearing the same old content. Once the bosses are dead, and you are waiting on next weeks lockout, or the next wing to unlock your guild either goes back and does TOC or Ulduar, or stops raiding for the week. Why? because Hard modes are not open until Arthas dies. So in actuality, you have a lot less to do until everything is unlocked.

Yes.

Seeing as how we're on GAF and gaming is one of our major (if not THE major) hobbies we have... I think we can all agree that "replay-ablity" is one of the hallmarks of a GREAT game.

I know I'm not talking out of turn here... but I would venture to say that a majority of gamers... and GAFers... enjoy games that they can play over and over. That's one of the appealing aspects of an MMO (specifically WoW) that has kept me subscribed for such a long time: the fact that the game and the world are ever-changing and offering new content as the weeks and months pass by.

So, Blackface, if you are looking to merely FINISH and BEAT a game and then move on to another game... perhaps you are playing in the wrong genre? or at the very least, looking for specific aspects in a genre that really aren't that genre's interest.

And, 100%, 5 wipes seems pretty laughable. I hope they bump it to about 10 a wing... with the way lag effects ALL raiders... I would hope they are a little more lenient...... unless the content is laughably easy. Then... well... I suppose it's moot.

I am not looking to "beat the game". I have played MMO's longer then most people, since long before most people even knew what the genre was. I am sure many here have done the same.

Replayabiltiy is fine. It's the hallmark of a good game IMO. However no matter the game, doing the same thing over and over eventually gets boring for a normal human being. When you lose the incentive to do the content in an MMO, when you have seen all it has to offer, your interest in the game eventually dies. This is what happened in BT. It's why people came back for the expansion. This is why I understand Blizzards decision to stagger the release of Icecrown. It will keep people playing to see the new content. As opposed to what happened in BT, where they did it so quickly, and so often, that eventually it became boring. When everyone had their gear, when there was no new content in sight, when they were farming the same bosses for months on end, people quit.

Blizzard, like any good company, does not want this to happen again. However, I personally disagree with the way they are going about doing it. Artificially extending the life of an instance is a cheap way of avoiding the problems that occurred in Black Temple.

I am still going to play Icecrown. I am still going to do it, do the hardmodes. I am not going to "quit" the game. However you can enjoy and play a game, and still be critical of the way certain aspects of it are operated. You don't have to suck the company teet for better or worse. If that was the case, World of Warcraft wouldn't be what it is today, and half of the lead developers would still be running their guilds in Everquest. :lol

I love WoW, but I simply don't agree with artificially extending the life of an instance. Simple as that.

 

[Evlar]

I have no idea what you mean by "artificially" in this context. Between releasing all the content at once or releasing it slowly neither option strikes me as "natural" or "artificial", considering that all of WoW is a constructed world with programmed rules. Perhaps "old" and "new" would be better labels? As was stated earlier in the argument, there is a very well established framework for releasing prepared content slowly over time: it's the episodic release model, and it's the standard in television programming, comic books, and magazines.

 

[Tamanon]

Plus, it's not like it's even a new concept recently. I mean, look at VOA.

 

[Yaweee]

I specifically stated, numerous times, which you seem to not read, that I see the argument from both sides of the fence. It does not change the fact there is absolutely no point to stagger the release of Icecrown unless Blizzard is purposely trying to keep people playing. I have yet to hear an argument otherwise.

Is there any reason to assume that the Lich King encounter, the 25 man versions of every encounter, or the assorted Hard modes for every encounter (both 10 and 25 man versions) are yet bug tested and balanced? I was under the impression that they haven't done everything on the PTR yet- this gating allows them to release 3.3 early than they otherwise would be able to.

Also, your assumption that it could be 1~2 months between each section seems off base. I'm guessing it will be every two weeks like the Sunwell, maybe every three weeks.

 

[Stuggernaut]

Wait how is there no point in staggering?

There are plenty of people who are in the "I want it NOW" camp.

Coupled with the "I want it with no bugs" camp.

So by staggering you release what works now, to satisfy both. People get something to play now, that is not bugged all to hell, rather than waiting until it is all ready by which time some players my get bored and leave.

Hard thing to balance if you ask me.

There will never be enough content to keep everyone happy all the time. The fact that peple compain so much about it is just silly.

 

[hobart]

Haha.

Anyone who remembers BWL's launch will tell you:

No. Bugs. Please.

 

[Blackface]

I have no idea what you mean by "artificially" in this context. Between releasing all the content at once or releasing it slowly neither option strikes me as "natural" or "artificial", considering that all of WoW is a constructed world with programmed rules. Perhaps "old" and "new" would be better labels? As was stated earlier in the argument, there is a very well established framework for releasing prepared content slowly over time: it's the episodic release model, and it's the standard in television programming, comic books, and magazines.

Artificially extending the instance life, as in it would be cleared a lot sooner if it were not for the lockouts.

Wait how is there no point in staggering?

There are plenty of people who are in the "I want it NOW" camp.

Coupled with the "I want it with no bugs" camp.

So by staggering you release what works now, to satisfy both. People get something to play now, that is not bugged all to hell, rather than waiting until it is all ready by which time some players my get bored and leave.

Hard thing to balance if you ask me.

There will never be enough content to keep everyone happy all the time. The fact that peple compain so much about it is just silly.

Right, as I stated in an above post, staggering it will allow it to be bug free, hopefully. Which is one of the positives. Anyone who has been on the PTR knows some of the later bosses need lots of fixes. So in this respect, staggering is a good thing. That being said, the bugs some of the later bosses have, are similar to the ones the beginning bosses were suffering from. It took Blizzard a week or two to hammer those out. So delaying the patch for a couple weeks so everything is relatively bug free and able to release at one time isn't some unthinkable task. I say relatively bug free because there will be still bugs, it's inevitable with any MMO content.

They did this for Ulduar, and Ulduar had a similar amount of bosses. Ulduar hard modes weren't bug free, but I highly doubt Icecrown hard modes will be either. TOC hard modes weren't and they had over a month of extra testing time on those.

Plus, it's not like it's even a new concept recently. I mean, look at VOA.

VOA and a full raid instance are much different. VOA was designed so bosses could be created at later dates and added in. Everyone knew that was the point of VOA. It wasn't a fully themed instance with all the lore, bosses, quests completed and being tested. They are two very different things.


At the end of the day, I would rather have Icecrown delayed a month and a half, be released at one time, and relatively bug free. Then for sections of it to be pumped out, completed, and everyone wait around for the next wing. It's my personal opinion. Lots of people share it, lots of people oppose it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I specifically stated, numerous times, which you seem to not read, that I see the argument from both sides of the fence. It does not change the fact there is absolutely no point to stagger the release of Icecrown unless Blizzard is purposely trying to keep people playing. I have yet to hear an argument otherwise.



A concept you seem to not understand, is this. What are you doing when you are waiting the potential month-two months for the next wing of Icecrown to unlock? You are doing the same old content, over and over again. Regardless of if new content comes out two months after Icecrown is released, you are still doing the same content repeatedly until the second wing unlocks. It's really a simple concept. You spend the same amount of time on a specific boss to kill it regardless of when that boss unlocks. So lets say your guild kills each boss in Icecrown after an average of five attempts. Regardless of if the content unlocks over the course of 7 months, or if it's available immediately, your guild would have still taken 60 attempts to clear Icecrown. So every kill and wipe in between those 60 attempts is you clearing the same old content. Once the bosses are dead, and you are waiting on next weeks lockout, or the next wing to unlock your guild either goes back and does TOC or Ulduar, or stops raiding for the week. Why? because Hard modes are not open until Arthas dies. So in actuality, you have a lot less to do until everything is unlocked.



I am not looking to "beat the game". I have played MMO's longer then most people, since long before most people even knew what the genre was. I am sure many here have done the same.

Replayabiltiy is fine. It's the hallmark of a good game IMO. However no matter the game, doing the same thing over and over eventually gets boring for a normal human being. When you lose the incentive to do the content in an MMO, when you have seen all it has to offer, your interest in the game eventually dies. This is what happened in BT. It's why people came back for the expansion. This is why I understand Blizzards decision to stagger the release of Icecrown. It will keep people playing to see the new content. As opposed to what happened in BT, where they did it so quickly, and so often, that eventually it became boring. When everyone had their gear, when there was no new content in sight, when they were farming the same bosses for months on end, people quit.

Blizzard, like any good company, does not want this to happen again. However, I personally disagree with the way they are going about doing it. Artificially extending the life of an instance is a cheap way of avoiding the problems that occurred in Black Temple.

I am still going to play Icecrown. I am still going to do it, do the hardmodes. I am not going to "quit" the game. However you can enjoy and play a game, and still be critical of the way certain aspects of it are operated. You don't have to suck the company teet for better or worse. If that was the case, World of Warcraft wouldn't be what it is today, and half of the lead developers would still be running their guilds in Everquest. :lol

I love WoW, but I simply don't agree with artificially extending the life of an instance. Simple as that.

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Blackface, you're just using a lot of words to fail at justifying "but I want it now, mom!"

 

[hobart]

Maybe I'm in the minority here (don't think I am)... but... for me... I'd much rather have separate wings released over the course of a few weeks rather than waiting another month and a half for ALL of ICC to be released.

Besides... there is SO MUCH to go through in this new patch that isn't raid related... I couldn't possibly get through it all in a week... maybe even two:New weapon quest line... 3 new 5mans... Random Instancing for badges... new patterns and abilities and buffs places on our characters...

I'm gonna be busy! And I'm not completely against phasing ToC from our raid schedule just yet.... a full Raid Instance with 5 ready-to-go bosses? Pretty awesome... especially considering that gear WILL be needed for all your 10/25m progression. Maybe it's just that I'm in a larger guild... and there some guys in there that I'd like to gear up that haven't been able to raid with us all that often... but... the amount of choice I'll have once this patch is release is... well... staggering

 

[Tamanon]

I am perfectly happy with the separate wings coming in different phases. Especially since all the other 3.3 stuff will be hitting. I am ready for new 5-mans and to start learning new raid bosses, and stop earning damn Conquest badges.

Plus, I'm getting tempted to play my mage again and that Water Elemental glyph is sick.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Maybe I'm in the minority here (don't think I am)... but... for me... I'd much rather have separate wings released over the course of a few weeks rather than waiting another month and a half for ALL of ICC to be released.

Besides... there is SO MUCH to go through in this new patch that isn't raid related... I couldn't possibly get through it all in a week... maybe even two:New weapon quest line... 3 new 5mans... Random Instancing for badges... new patterns and abilities and buffs places on our characters...

I'm gonna be busy! And I'm not completely against phasing ToC from our raid schedule just yet.... a full Raid Instance with 5 ready-to-go bosses? Pretty awesome... especially considering that gear WILL be needed for all your 10/25m progression. Maybe it's just that I'm in a larger guild... and there some guys in there that I'd like to gear up that haven't been able to raid with us all that often... but... the amount of choice I'll have once this patch is release is... well... staggering

Meh. I'd be just fine sticking to 232 gear and limping a bit in ICC if I had the choice between, show up in 232, or run ToC more to get to 245.

 

[VaLiancY]

You alt-aholics are a strange breed. I rolled Dreanei Shaman and I'm already getting bored despite this is my 2nd Alliance character ever, that Hit racial is pretty fucking nice though.

Spoiler

I miss my Orc racials

 

[Angry Grimace]

You alt-aholics are a strange breed. I rolled Dreanei Shaman and I'm already getting bored despite this is my 2nd Alliance character ever, that Hit racial is pretty fucking nice though.

Spoiler

I miss my Orc racials

C'mon now.

I only have 6 characters. That's not alt-aholic.

I have 0 spacegoats for the record.

 

[VaLiancY]

I force myself to get past level 20 because I don't delete characters after that hump but I damn sure will neglect them for a loooooong time.:lol

 

[zugzug]

It is a tough situation for the Dev, either way they go some people are going to be bored/frustrated.

Honestly in the history of all MMOs, its never a tough situation because they have failed all the time every time in some manner which is so obvious to fix. Bad decision making is bad.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I force myself to get past level 20 because I don't delete characters after that hump but I damn sure will neglect them for a loooooong time.:lol

5 80s (rogue, druid, warrior, Death knight, and Priest) and a rapidly progressing 58 Paladin. :lol

I think I have a 33 Mage bumping around on some server.

Honestly in the history of all MMOs, its never a tough situation because they have failed all the time every time in some manner which is so obvious to fix. Bad decision making is bad.

I had to debate between breaking out this oldie but goodie gif, or busting out a "cool story bro", but this is pretty incoherent.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Is it just me, or does Blizzard have a real hard on for Axes this entire expansion? I mean, all the best weapons have been axes, and they didn't have enough axes, so they added Rogues the ability to have axes so they could double the number of axes they could put in the game.

 

[traveler]

Is it just me, or does Blizzard have a real hard on for Axes this entire expansion? I mean, all the best weapons have been axes, and they didn't have enough axes, so they added Rogues the ability to have axes so they could double the number of axes they could put in the game.

Yeah, as a human dk, I noticed this too. Haven't been able to take advantage of the expertise racial ever since I left the TS Destroyer behind. It doesn't help that I also prefers swords, just at an artistic level, and I've always thought of them as the DK weapon of choice.

 

[VaLiancY]

We need some legendary one handers.

 

[Xabora]

Yeah, as a human dk, I noticed this too. Haven't been able to take advantage of the expertise racial ever since I left the TS Destroyer behind. It doesn't help that I also prefers swords, just at an artistic level, and I've always thought of them as the DK weapon of choice.

As a human I prefer maces.

And in other news.
Friendly with Ashen Verdict
Get hilt from cave, 25 Primordial Saronite and 2 quest items from 2 bosses.
RECIEVE SHADOW'S EDGE
Collect 1000 souls
Kill Professor Putricide after doing a trick during the fight
Kill Queen Lana'thel after doing a trick during the fight
Kill Sindragosa after doing a trick during the fight
Collect 60 shards of the Frozen throne
RECIEVE SHADOWMOURNE
Kill Arthas

 

[traveler]

So thats the chain in its entirety then, huh. We've had those quests for a while but I was wondering if there would be any more. Nice to know.

Have they said anything about reputation grinding for the Ashen Verdict? Will there be a SSO style hub with dailies or will it be a faction exclusively associated with completing raid quests in Icecrown? Are there rep rewards beyond the upgradeable rings?

 

[Angry Grimace]

As a human I prefer maces.

And in other news.
Friendly with Ashen Verdict
Get hilt from cave, 25 Primordial Saronite and 2 quest items from 2 bosses.
RECIEVE SHADOW'S EDGE
Collect 1000 souls
Kill Professor Putricide after doing a trick during the fight
Kill Queen Lana'thel after doing a trick during the fight
Kill Sindragosa after doing a trick during the fight
Collect 60 shards of the Frozen throne
RECIEVE SHADOWMOURNE
Kill Arthas

Did they remove the "1000 souls" requirement?

Edit: it's there, I just thought it wast he last part.

I can't even remember the last decent mace. Hammer of Crushing Whispers/Earthshaper?

 

[Tamanon]

So thats the chain in its entirety then, huh. We've had those quests for a while but I was wondering if there would be any more. Nice to know.

Have they said anything about reputation grinding for the Ashen Verdict? Will there be a SSO style hub with dailies or will it be a faction exclusively associated with completing raid quests in Icecrown? Are there rep rewards beyond the upgradeable rings?

From the looks of things, the recipes are also rep specific. Looks like it'll be solely the quests there and killing in the raid.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I'm not even sure which side you're arguing for, much less what.

I argue for neither side, and I dont argue against a side either. Im just not in any mood to pay to twiddle my thumbs for months till we (an adult casual raiding guild) even SEE the Lich King. If it is "several" weeks per (I hope it isn't and I misinterpreted it), that's what we'll see. Key word: "we'll", as if normal mode is of moderate difficulty at best like they have been, any guild that calls themselves raiding will have those 3/4 bosses down and be bored (again, with NO HM to tide them over). Like I said, one or two week lockouts have happened and it worked fine.

"but I want it now, mom!"

Yeah, that's kind of how this entire game and genre have worked since the beginning, bro.

Still doesn't get it.

 

[Bregor]

A concept you seem to not understand, is this. What are you doing when you are waiting the potential month-two months for the next wing of Icecrown to unlock? You are doing the same old content, over and over again. Regardless of if new content comes out two months after Icecrown is released, you are still doing the same content repeatedly until the second wing unlocks. It's really a simple concept. You spend the same amount of time on a specific boss to kill it regardless of when that boss unlocks. So lets say your guild kills each boss in Icecrown after an average of five attempts. Regardless of if the content unlocks over the course of 7 months, or if it's available immediately, your guild would have still taken 60 attempts to clear Icecrown. So every kill and wipe in between those 60 attempts is you clearing the same old content. Once the bosses are dead, and you are waiting on next weeks lockout, or the next wing to unlock your guild either goes back and does TOC or Ulduar, or stops raiding for the week. Why? because Hard modes are not open until Arthas dies. So in actuality, you have a lot less to do until everything is unlocked.

No you don't get it. Boredom isn't about the fact that bosses you do repeatedly become old. That part is self evident. It is about how long it has been since you have done something new. Releasing everything at once means that all the bosses very quickly become old content, and therefore boredom sets in. The staggered release means that there is always something new that has just been released or is about to be released, and keeps people more interested in raiding.

I have no interest in getting ICC all at once, clearing the place quickly, and then spending probably 6+ months with no new content to look forward to before Cataclysm releases. Hell, the 3-4 months it will be even with gating sounds pretty rough to me.

 

[traveler]

No you don't get it. Boredom isn't about the fact that bosses you do repeatedly become old. That part is self evident. It is about how long it has been since you have done something new. Releasing everything at once means that all the bosses very quickly become old content, and therefore boredom sets in. The staggered release means that there is always something new that has just been released or is about to be released, and keeps people more interested in raiding.

I have no interest in getting ICC all at once, clearing the place quickly, and then spending probably 6+ months with no new content to look forward to before Cataclysm releases. Hell, the 3-4 months it will be even with gating sounds pretty rough to me.

Do you despise the HL episodes for being completable in such a small amount of time, leaving with you quite a wait to deal with in between each installment? Or do you accept that their quality is a product of, in part, Valve understanding that stretching content weakens a game?

 

[Bregor]

Do you despise the HL episodes for being completable in such a small amount of time, leaving with you quite a wait to deal with in between each installment? Or do you accept that their quality is a product of, in part, Valve understanding that stretching content weakens a game?

I don't despise them, they are superb games. Their release schedule is poorly handled however. The fans would be better served by receiving smaller chunks more regularly than the current release rate.

The two cases aren't really comparable in any case - with the HL episodes there is an expectation and understanding from Valve that players will complete each episode and then move on to other single player games (likely from other companies) in the interim. There is no community that needs to be maintained in HL2 single player field. It is notable that the games that Valve makes that are multiplayer, and therefore have a social aspect, do get regular releases of new content in order to help maintain that community.

Regularity in the release of new content in WoW is beneficial not only to Blizzard in maintaining subscriptions, but to the community in maintaining the social structures they use (raiding guilds, etc) to experience that content.