exactly. either there is a hybrid tax and thus a reason to play hybrids for the "tax", or there isn't a hybrid tax and you play hybrids for TRUE dual spec (i.e. heal/tank during raids, dps during pvp). going forward I can't see anyone ditching druid because buffs and debuffs are going to be given lower priority. people are still going to want to tank bear, dps moonkin, etc.DarkJC said:
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World of Warcraft
- Thread starter Cerebral Palsy
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Interfectum
Member
in the 5+ years I've played wow I've never once rolled a class because of their buffs / debuffs selection. and in terms of hybrid tax... as long as they give the pure classes more utility i have no problem with hybrids being competitive in dps.
While I agree in principle, this is ignoring the people who - effectively - play hybrids *as* pures; as far as they're concerned, the other specs don't exist. It's worth also adding that, while those people may be uncommon, it's still the case that you can't take full advantage of hybridisation during periods where it matters the most.
Ultimately, you can only play one spec at full efficiency in a given bossfight - you can't respec in combat, although in an emergency you could throw on a 1h+shield and tank something, you wouldn't be remotely as good as a 'full' tank in that respect. I'm pretty sure one thing that Blizzard have said is that they don't plan raids with dual-speccing taken into account, they don't expect raid makeups to have to change on a boss-by-boss basis using it.
In short: In a single encounter, hybridisation makes little to no difference. Across an entire raid, maybe it's a factor. Should Blizzard be thinking in terms of encounters or raids? I suspected they were always working in terms of encounters, but I can see the argument for the other possibility.
Ultimately, you can only play one spec at full efficiency in a given bossfight - you can't respec in combat, although in an emergency you could throw on a 1h+shield and tank something, you wouldn't be remotely as good as a 'full' tank in that respect. I'm pretty sure one thing that Blizzard have said is that they don't plan raids with dual-speccing taken into account, they don't expect raid makeups to have to change on a boss-by-boss basis using it.
In short: In a single encounter, hybridisation makes little to no difference. Across an entire raid, maybe it's a factor. Should Blizzard be thinking in terms of encounters or raids? I suspected they were always working in terms of encounters, but I can see the argument for the other possibility.
Took like four hours for Blizzard to reset my account and I now have a mobile authenticator attached. Now to survey the damage to my WoW account...
EDIT: My password was reset twice for some reason. Does that mean the hacker is still logged into my B.net account and how can I throw him out? Shouldn't adding an authenticator force everything to reset somehow?
EDIT 2: What's the best free keylog scanner there is? I feel like triple-checking.
EDIT: My password was reset twice for some reason. Does that mean the hacker is still logged into my B.net account and how can I throw him out? Shouldn't adding an authenticator force everything to reset somehow?
EDIT 2: What's the best free keylog scanner there is? I feel like triple-checking.
HarryDemeanor
Member
Rapstah said:
He should have been kicked out of the account right as you slapped an authenticator on there and had your account back. He shouldn't be able to get back in because of the authenticator now.
As for best keylog scanner I can recommend both Malwarebytes' Anti-Malware and SuperAntiSpyware. For a virus scanner go with Microsoft Security Essentials. All of those programs do a bang up job finding crap like that.
he should have been thrown out instantly. in the event he wasn't thrown out instantly, it doesn't matter, because he can't do much with your account and can't login to WoW without the authenticator, and even if he's on the battle.net management screen he can't remove the authenticator without providing the two most recent authenticator codes.Rapstah said:
edit - I should say two concurrent authenticator codes. So even if he keylogs one code right now, he still needs the code IMMEDIATELY after it to remove it from your account.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
The only way Blizzard would ever get rid of the "hybrid tax" is if they gave warlocks, mages, rogues and hunters a tanking or healing spec. Which also won't happen.
Without that hybrid tax - the entire game falls apart. Four classes are markedly worse than the others. The trick is keeping the tax low enough so that skill makes up for it
Without that hybrid tax - the entire game falls apart. Four classes are markedly worse than the others. The trick is keeping the tax low enough so that skill makes up for it
Looks like Blizzard caught the hacker in the act, half my main character's inventory had been sold but the hacker had strangely missed the most expensive stuff. Still managed to get about 2800 gold from me (all of which I got back in mails to the respective characters, nice).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Fuck that shit.borghe said:
If I get keylogged, I'm reformatting just to be safe.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Whats the difference between a cat dps spec and a bear tank spec? 10 points? You could easily have a cat dps switch to a bear tank if a tank died, or have the tank switch to dps during phases that require no tanking.mclem said:
Fularu said:
Okay, heal you to 50% and then let the healer take over. You're still brezzed.
Second part doesn't factor in with no hybrid tax. Cat druids would have some trick making them equal to rogues in DPS.
Which was really my entire point. With no hybrid tax on DPS, there's no point in playing a pure class.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
mclem said:
You still don't understand.
A druid will bres someone
You are tricking someone and either improving their DPS immensely (properly timed with cooldowns and such) or improving raid damage vastly by improving the tank's threat.
Neither of those are doable by your druid. You have different raid utility, deal with it.
The hybrid tax is dumb, hybrids can't fullfill two roles in a single fight, neither can you, end of story.
A druid will bres someone
You are tricking someone and either improving their DPS immensely (properly timed with cooldowns and such) or improving raid damage vastly by improving the tank's threat.
Neither of those are doable by your druid. You have different raid utility, deal with it.
The hybrid tax is dumb, hybrids can't fullfill two roles in a single fight, neither can you, end of story.
Interfectum
Member
FLEABttn said:
Yes, cat druid has brez but you are completely ignoring all the utility a rogue has over a druid cat in and out of raiding.
Fularu said:
This is a zero sum game. You get more DPS and less utility or more utility and less DPS. If you can drop the occasional heal on yourself or others, that's a utility a pure doesn't have.
To get higher DPS, you have to give up utility. Not liking your utility or not using it given good circumstances doesn't mean you don't have it.
Is the zero sum game perfect? No, but that doesn't mean it's not there, or that it shouldn't be there.
Interfectum said:
It's been a couple years since I high end raided with one. In all seriousness and no sarcasm, please do tell.
Oh, outside of tricks of the trade's threat "bonus". Threat hasn't mattered all expac and isn't likely to start mattering again in Cata.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
1. This isn't trueFularu said:
2. They can also perform multiple roles while soloing, doing dungeons, battlegrounds, etc. etc.
The tax is low enough that it just gives the four pure dps classes something to offset their reduced capability in all aspects of the game, and besides the point - it's rarely, if ever balanced correctly. Warriors and DKs spent this whole expansion above at least two or there of the pures, with Paladins, Druids and some other classes also getting some time above them.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with the fact that a Mage would have to level up a new character from 1-80 if he wanted to tank.Fularu said:
I agree that the hybrid tax is dumb (I also don't think it really exists anymore and will be going away). Mostly they make up for it by having the pure classes capable of effective threat reduction and CC.
It's also harder to balance all the hybrids because the more roles they have, the harder it is to make all the roles competitive. The inability for any hybrid to switch roles mid-fight is why they don't punish people for playing hybrids like they did in classic, and to a lesser extent, TBC. But the key is that pure classes usually have more tools for their role than the hybrids do. Hybrids can do the same role, but with less flexibility. The only real exception is tanking/healing because all tanks/healers are hybrids.
It's also harder to balance all the hybrids because the more roles they have, the harder it is to make all the roles competitive. The inability for any hybrid to switch roles mid-fight is why they don't punish people for playing hybrids like they did in classic, and to a lesser extent, TBC. But the key is that pure classes usually have more tools for their role than the hybrids do. Hybrids can do the same role, but with less flexibility. The only real exception is tanking/healing because all tanks/healers are hybrids.
The boss doesn't care if the Druid can drop combat, switch specs and gear then start tanking him.Angry Grimace said:
Refer to Everquest 1 on why a hybrid tax should not exist. You brought 1 of each class for their unique buffs and then stacked the raid with as many clerics, wizards and rogues as you could. Being able to switch roles is great but you can't switch roles in combat and bosses are tuned with that in mind. If the best feral only does 75% the dps of your rogues, you won't take that feral even if he can shift out and toss weak ass rejuvs out for the 20 seconds before he goes oom.
Angry Grimace said:
I fixed the leveling for you.
Also hybrids as in "can fill different roles with a respec in a fight" is no longer considered a valid argument. Mages have tanked two fights in BC, Locks have been tanking fights since Vanilla. Should they suffer the hybrid tax too? since they obviously can tank too!
Also will the frost mage and the fire/arcane mage have comparable roles in a given fight? No, frost mages would be used to slow down incoming packs of mobs or control a fight, doesn'T that fall under the hybrid definition?
In the end, the "hybrid"/"pure" topic is a dumb one, because while in a raid, there's no such thing as a hybrid player, every single one of them is focused on a single role they are fullfilling.
A rogue and a Cat should do the same dps, end of story, what makes you bring one or the other is the fact that you want to play with the guy controlling the character. Telling a cat "you can only do 90% of my DPS because you can Bres someone or switch spec and heal" is incredibly stupid.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Uproarius. /golfclapFularu said:
As for the rest of the post, you responded to the point by restating your original point and ignoring the stated reason; it's because Mages can't tank or heal. The fact that a mage tanked 2 gimmick fights out of 57 boss fights in BC isn't a particularly valid argument; those are gimmicks. And frankly, the "ranged tank" role is gone; there's no purpose in letting anyone other than a Death Knight serve that role, and they can do it in a tank spec. You can't just ignore the fact that Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters never had the option to choose those other roles in the first place.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No, the problem is, you can't tax healers and tanks because there aren't enough of them as is. Every class can already DPS. Wrath got that part of class balance exactly right; good Ret Pallies can beat shitty mages, but a good mage will always beat a good Ret Pally. It works great. The percentage difference is small enough to be noticable, but not enough to make it so that nobody will bring a ret pally, ala Vanilla or TBC.firex said:
The Hybrid Tax has nothing to do with your role in a given fight but whether you have the option in the first place to switch.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Your argument makes four classes useless. Why should anyone play a hunter, rogue warlock or mage when they could just roll a hybrid and collect gear (at the same time as they collect gear for their primary spec) that will let them heal as good as the raids healers or tank as good as the raids tanks?Fularu said:
The tax exists for a reason. And it's so small that it's practically negligible anyway
My main is a DK. I believe they should maintain a hybrid tax. Something has to make said pures look more attractive to have. Either they need UNIQUE BUFFS that can not be found else, read; not just utility, or they need to continue doing the most DPS. If you can throw heals on yourself while dps'n, or others, you need to be taxed. If you can brez someone in battle, taxed. I don't fucking care if you can't throw heals as strong as a tree, but when a feral pre-hots and battles, they're annoying as fuck. Then they'll root you or shift get away, hot up again, go back at it.
Now, the only thing that throws a wrench in the works is this. Bloodlust (I don't call it "flower power" like the alliance version) is a major buff that Blizzard works into shaman "tax". Are they going to do the same for Mages now is the question? I'm still rather glad they gave mages more CC, lust + movement speed boost. I wonder who designs the classes there sometimes.
Absolutely, positively, no. You can Brez, pinch heal, pre-hot shift to bear to annoy ppl in pvp and in many cases win by being able to go Cat-Bear-Heal-Cat-Bear-Heal-etc. Druids are the most BS class in the game, their cat dps is too high as it is right now, and they need to be lowered into the cellar for being able to play 4-roles.
Now, the only thing that throws a wrench in the works is this. Bloodlust (I don't call it "flower power" like the alliance version) is a major buff that Blizzard works into shaman "tax". Are they going to do the same for Mages now is the question? I'm still rather glad they gave mages more CC, lust + movement speed boost. I wonder who designs the classes there sometimes.
Fularu said:
Absolutely, positively, no. You can Brez, pinch heal, pre-hot shift to bear to annoy ppl in pvp and in many cases win by being able to go Cat-Bear-Heal-Cat-Bear-Heal-etc. Druids are the most BS class in the game, their cat dps is too high as it is right now, and they need to be lowered into the cellar for being able to play 4-roles.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The presumption is that Bloodlust just counts as a regular raid buff now.J-Rzez said:
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
im curious as to why you need to be in a Raid group to enter Raid instances. Its so stupid they still have this limitation on things two expansions later.
well my guess is that it's not a "stupid" limitation and is there for a reason. The fact that they don't really go out of their way to stop you, just require at least a two person raid, leads me to believe it's an engine mechanic.water_wendi said:
but really, what's more stupid, requiring you to be in a raid, or complaining when all you need to do is find ONE other friend and invite them to a raid to get in? They don't even need to be at the raid instance for the invite..
my guess is it's along the same mechanic of (and probably actually intended for) not being able to enter a 5-man as a raid, more than actually stopping people from 2-manning or soloing old raids.
J-Rzez said:
Lol, honestly this kind of stupid drivel is better suited for the official forums.
The hybrid tax is prety much gone, as some would say, deal with it. A bres is just a selectable soul stone, just like you predetermine, ahead of the start of the fight, who's going to benefit from it. Is it more flexible? Yes, is it better? only slightly so. Should it warrant a tax? No fucking way.
And seriously, heals? As a feral? Do you know how large the mana pool is in dps leather gear? Do you seriously believe it would do anything? Not at all.
so because a druid can bres, he should suffer an arbitrary DPS tax? Why not a healing one then? (After all, it's bullshit! They can be ranged, melee, tank and heals! So OP!)
Nothing is rendering any class useless. All I see is a bunch of crybabies screaming that the sky is falling on the "pures".
Warriors had to deal with tanking homogeneity and options, so will you.
OMG DEY TOOK OUR JEBS
No more preferential treatment because crying mages or rogues complain non stop on the forums that they should be top DPS "because I can't do anything else!" while ignoring the vast array of tools they bring to a raid.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Well trying to find someone when your friends are offline is kind of annoying. Sure you can spam chats to try and find someone but that person is kind of forced to do nothing once they join your party for a Raid. Basically im forced to get into Wintergrasp and pray that i get leader before someone disbands the raid. Its annoying when im just sitting around with nothing to do because im blocked because of needing to create a Raid group.borghe said:
I guess we're talking about something different then but using the same terminology. I equate less tools for roles (well, less for dps) as the hybrid tax and not reduced DPS numbers. Mainly because like you say, a good player of a pure class will beat a good player of a hybrid anyway. But I view that as more of a function of better defined talents/core abilities since it's only doing one role.Angry Grimace said:
Although I feel like this buff/debuff homogenization hurts hybrids more than anything, because part of the reason for playing a hybrid for some people (like someone switching mains) is because of their unique abilities in that role. I just hope blizzard can do a good job making it so there are unique abilities as a dps warrior/dk/druid/shaman/priest/paladin that aren't tied directly to a debuff or something, mainly because the only one now that remains unique is paladin judgements.
fair enough. like I said, the mechanic is probably in place not to block non-raiders from entering raid instances, but probably to block raids from entering non-raid instances. the way it is is very easy to get around for one or two people wanting to get into a raid instance, and is impossible for people to get around wanting to go into a 5-man with more than 5 people.water_wendi said:
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Fularu strikes me as the typical druid player.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The "Vast Array of Tools" for any DPS usually can boil down to "DPS."Fularu said:
But you're just ignoring the point over and over. You speak as though you literally don't even understand why the tax exists. It's because Mages can't spec heals or tanks, not because of soulstones, or healing in a pinch.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677330431&sid=1Ghostcrawler said:
(emphasis added, in case you couldn't tell :lol)
TL/DR, the game designer says you are wrong.
HarryDemeanor
Member
New patch came out for Cata F&F and the male Worgen has been given its dance. Small preview here with a video coming in a while.
Now with male Goblin! Looks like Soulja Boy.
Now with male Goblin! Looks like Soulja Boy.
Fularu said:
I agree, you should head over there with your posts.
You miss the point entirely here. Druids have 4 specs, in which some talents in the feral tree especially can trickle here and there to be super annoying in PVP. Roots, Cyclones, Mark, Leader of the Pack, Thorns, Boomkin buffs. Consider the multiple buffs brought at the same (mark, thorns, leader), Brez. That class has the most options, most utility. They should be no where near top dps. You think it's ok for a cat to do as much dmg as a rogue, where they can pounce/burst, get away, hot, bear them down? No. Like it or not, it'd have too much of a impact on PVP, and yes, they try to balance them together.
No other class has FOUR routes to choose with their main to fill a role. NONE. That is why your class should be taxed even further. Once again though, a greedy druid, no surprise here. I play a hybrid as a main, and I understand why I shouldn't do the same DPS.
DPS order, how it should be, based on a real hybrid tax:
Top DPS:
Rogues
Locks
Mages
Hunters
Next:
Wars
DKs
Priests
.
.
Shaman
Then...:
Paladins
Further yet:
Druids.
Back to more important things... Let's see that video Harry!
AND... if female worgens DONT do the Caramelldansen dance, Blizzard fails. Oh man the type of people that would be drawn to Worgen would go well beyond the furries. :lol
HarryDemeanor
Member
J-Rzez said:Back to more important things... Let's see that video Harry!
AND... if female worgens DONT do the Caramelldansen dance, Blizzard fails. Oh man the type of people that would be drawn to Worgen would go well beyond the furries. :lol
Still waiting for the video to be posted. I'll link it when it's ready.
Here we go.
Male Worgen dance. (Music sucks so just mute it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBzKjuYyqk0
Male Goblin dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIrNwPfVEDw
HarryDemeanor said:
Thanks!
What's the worgen male dance supposed to be? I can't tell. The goblins dances are pretty noticeable what they reference. Caramelldansen for female worgen, make it happen for the lulz that the alliance will be getting even more creeps playing on their side!
Oh well, Blizzcon will have a couple more dances for people to do for a change now in the dance off lol.
ShallNoiseUpon
Member
TurtleSnatcher, if you're around tonight - hop on Area 52 and whisper Voltis, I'll toss you an invite.
Soulja Boy dance :lol and the female Goblins have Single Ladies :lolHarryDemeanor said:
Hmm, I have no idea what the male Worgen dance is and that's the new character I'll have to make since I'm Alliance.
Man, if I had one gripe with playing Alliance only it's that I'll miss Goblins. But it's such a pain to have a character without access to all my other characters with maxed professions and my guild, etc.
And wow, I never realized how upset some people get over the hybrid tax. It makes sense to me, if you can perform multiple roles you should be a little inferior at each. It'd be cool if there were a 'healing only' or 'tanking only' class but for obvious single player leveling reasons that wouldn't work
(I guess Warriors and Priests used to be like that though - I didn't play pre-BC but that's sort of what I hear)J-Rzez said:
You know where your argument is stupid? At the parts where you say feral druids DPS should be gimped because they can a) raid buff (every class, even rogues can do it) b) heal (they'll go oom faster than they can say cat form and they won't heal for shit without SP gear) c) bring pvp balance into pve dps discussion.
If you think that they shouldn't do as much DPS because they have multiple roles, feel fre to think like that. Although I'd still disagree because the playstyles can differ so greatly even with pure classes.
Angry Grimace said:
I hadn't seen that GC post before, it's interesting - and it looks like you're completely correct in the 'tax' continuing.
I think there's still a flaw in his logic, though:
The flaw, I think, is that their stated design goal is only really built around thinking in one direction; "We should nerf their DPS because they are valuable to the raid due to being able to become a tank". That seems reasonable, but the implied reverse is a bit of a problem; "If there's no use for an extra tank, they'll have to become an inadequate DPSer". That, I have an issue with.
As a raid leader I'm already having to ensure that all my tanks get an adequate amount of important work to do; tanking roles are already thin on the ground. It doesn't help that I'm always theorising how certain fights could be single-tankable (next project: I think Gunship can be done with just one tank...)! It doesn't help that, if they're focussed on being a tank, they aren't likely to be as *good* using their DPS role anyway. If we're doing a first kill of a DPS check fight I know what the correct decision is for the guild, but it's one I dislike being forced to make.
I guess he thinks that's the lesser of two evils. That's fair enough, really; I suspect it's a less common situation than the DPS->tank/heal one that his description is designed to guard against being too great an advantage. For me, it's the norm, but I suspect our guild is unusual in that respect, anyway.
In short: I get why it's done, but it's one of the things that contributes to general bad feeling among tanks.
Having said *all* that, I do have to admit I've never really *noticed* any such hybrid tax in recent content. Maybe it's a design goal, but possibly only encountered at theoretical maximum outputs; our hybrids are definitely competitive. While I disagree with it in principle, it's ultimately irrelevant for us. If it became an issue, then yes, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops, but right now it's theory, little more.
So maybe the real solution is this: If he hadn't said anything, we'd have been none the wiser, and no-one would have any problem!
I would imagine most dedicated mages don't give a damn about tanking or healing, regardless of whether or not they can. Likewise, I imagine most dps hybrids chose their class for its playstyle more so than the ability to someday stop dpsing entirely. The entire thing boils down to a hypothetical worry that one group of people might stop having fun, and so the problem is shifted over to the people who can more easily stop having fun and might not just quit.Angry Grimace said:
Someone give me a plausible scenario for why a pure's inability to change roles is significant, because Ghostcrawler never has.
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