Teknopathetic
Member
Liu Kang's not quite known for his intelligent and well thought out posts.
World of Warcraft
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Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
There is no fun in PVP in World of Warcraft.fallout said:
Read any posts by Grand Marshals or High Warlords on the General forum. They all quit the game shortly after because the 18 hour-a-day PVP grind kills their love for the game, and anyone that finishes getting to exalted with AB or AV just gives up on PVP altogether. Blizzard Community Managers have even agreed with those posts and explained that the entire PVP system is currently undergoing an extreme re-working to make it more fun than a dull reputation grind.
I feel the same way. There's no incentive to doing PVP once you get the item rewards. The actual act of PVP is fun for a short bit, but it gets tiring fast because it's so static and gear/class-dependent. This doesn't even account for the long, boring queues the more popular faction has to endure to even attempt to face off against the opposition considering that world PVP is dying.
Teknopathetic
Member
"They all quit the game shortly after because the 18 hour-a-day PVP grind kills their love for the game"
Nice way to use an extreme situation as your basis.
For those of us who only PvP a couple times a day at most (you know, those with restraint/lives/self-respect/other shit to do), a few matches of AB goes down nice.
Nice way to use an extreme situation as your basis.
For those of us who only PvP a couple times a day at most (you know, those with restraint/lives/self-respect/other shit to do), a few matches of AB goes down nice.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm in 100% agreement. My guild has just recently started organized AB and we're 7-0 so far. It's a lot of fun.Teknopathetic said:
Overall, however, doing it with PUGs, it's tedious and boring, and many, many people are only into it for the rewards. It's a stressful affair.
I do like that you're all jumping over me because you've been waiting for the opportunity to do so.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Overall, however, doing it with PUGs, it's tedious and boring, and many, many people are only into it for the rewards. It's a stressful affair."
I'm lucky enough to PUG with a bunch of other regulars and we're usually pretty dominant. Good teamwork and we all get along pretty well.
"I do like that you're all jumping over me because you've been waiting for the opportunity to do so."
Persecution complexes are not becoming of you.
I'm lucky enough to PUG with a bunch of other regulars and we're usually pretty dominant. Good teamwork and we all get along pretty well.
"I do like that you're all jumping over me because you've been waiting for the opportunity to do so."
Persecution complexes are not becoming of you.
I'll agree with lui.
PVP, atleast Battleground is pretty damn boring. It's fun for a bit, but jesus christ it's the same god damn thing over and over. Not to mention the horrible queue times you have to endure.
I liked the game alot better before battlegrounds. Outside PVP was fun. I'm not talking about ganking, I'm talking about groups of people going at it it ruthlessly. It wasn't even (so you could actually win even if one side was UBERed out, by pulling #'s), it wasn't on the same territory all the god damned time.
Just last week I had some serous out door PVP for the first time in ages. A GM rogue was camping a priest of ours in the Badlands. So we send 7 of us out there and kill them for laughs. Next thing you know, 5 more from their guild (Biggest horde guild) comes, all of them grandmarshalls' and one of them the guild leader. We beat them down cause we had a few more numbers and they came trickling in.
We were able to camp them until they ran back to stonard. I spyed on them in stonard watching them summon a good 12 people to come after this.
So for fun we just ran back to the keep and sat on the flight point until they were a couple feet away, and flew away.
PVP, atleast Battleground is pretty damn boring. It's fun for a bit, but jesus christ it's the same god damn thing over and over. Not to mention the horrible queue times you have to endure.
I liked the game alot better before battlegrounds. Outside PVP was fun. I'm not talking about ganking, I'm talking about groups of people going at it it ruthlessly. It wasn't even (so you could actually win even if one side was UBERed out, by pulling #'s), it wasn't on the same territory all the god damned time.
Just last week I had some serous out door PVP for the first time in ages. A GM rogue was camping a priest of ours in the Badlands. So we send 7 of us out there and kill them for laughs. Next thing you know, 5 more from their guild (Biggest horde guild) comes, all of them grandmarshalls' and one of them the guild leader. We beat them down cause we had a few more numbers and they came trickling in.
We were able to camp them until they ran back to stonard. I spyed on them in stonard watching them summon a good 12 people to come after this.
So for fun we just ran back to the keep and sat on the flight point until they were a couple feet away, and flew away.
Teknopathetic
Member
"PVP, atleast Battleground is pretty damn boring. It's fun for a bit, but jesus christ it's the same god damn thing over and over."
And running end game raid instances is...?
"Not to mention the horrible queue times you have to endure."
Roll horde.
I get very few queue times.
And running end game raid instances is...?
"Not to mention the horrible queue times you have to endure."
Roll horde.
I get very few queue times.Ya cause it's worth giving up 70 days of playtime cause of bad game mechanics.
Ya PVE raids are boring, once you have it in farm mode.
Once you've done a battleground, you've seen it... that's all you'll ever see. You might have good victories you might have horrible. But it's sstill the same god damned thing.
Least in instances you got a slew of bosses that you must get through. It'll take awhile just to see all the content in a raid dungeon, and get it into farm status.
Ya PVE raids are boring, once you have it in farm mode.
Once you've done a battleground, you've seen it... that's all you'll ever see. You might have good victories you might have horrible. But it's sstill the same god damned thing.
Least in instances you got a slew of bosses that you must get through. It'll take awhile just to see all the content in a raid dungeon, and get it into farm status.
Err ... I just said "who's talking about honor grinding" and you quote those who do nothing but spend all day playing in BGs. Brilliant. The below quote basically sums up what I love and what my guild does.Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
You know, you can still do these things. And not on the massive let's-storm-IF-and-crash-the-server-scale. Get like, 30-40 guys together, then get a group of rogues to run into IF and take out some heavily geared 60. Chances are, you'll find some guy everyone hates. That'll suck a good portion of themFerrio said:
BG PvP is not the PvP I enjoy. Well ... that's not entirely true. I do love BG PvP, but only in the right doses. Also, being Horde and not having any queues whatsoever makes it quite nice. Still though, my point is that this game can actually be a lot of fun if you just get off the whole "Okay, so if I'm doing this, what do I get out of it?" notion. For some reason, if your answer is "Fun.", nobody cares.
Actually, this is one of those things where I'm not singling you out. I do react like this to just about anyone with this mentality. I still wonder why you're an unnecessary dick sometimes, but this isn't one of them.Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Teknopathetic
Member
"Once you've done a battleground, you've seen it... that's all you'll ever see. You might have good victories you might have horrible. But it's sstill the same god damned thing."
And how is that any different from playing a map in BF2, a course in some racing game, etc. etc.?
Yes, once you've done a battleground, you've seen it. You don't play a BG for the map, so much as the spontaneity in competition vs. humans instead of a static set of instructions given to robots. That's the real meat in anything that pits player vs. player in any game.
And how is that any different from playing a map in BF2, a course in some racing game, etc. etc.?
Yes, once you've done a battleground, you've seen it. You don't play a BG for the map, so much as the spontaneity in competition vs. humans instead of a static set of instructions given to robots. That's the real meat in anything that pits player vs. player in any game.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Ya cause it's worth giving up 70 days of playtime cause of bad game mechanics."
Don't blame game mechanics, blame the 1000s of pansies who wanted to be night elves. That said, inter-server BGs would be divine. The only problem would be that it would effectively ruin the community and "unique" personalities of the individual servers, for better or worse.
Don't blame game mechanics, blame the 1000s of pansies who wanted to be night elves. That said, inter-server BGs would be divine. The only problem would be that it would effectively ruin the community and "unique" personalities of the individual servers, for better or worse.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The only difference is that you're going to get rewards at least 8 times in a full BWL clear. It'll take 80 successful ABs to even get close to Honored or Revered, which yields nothing spectacular.Ramirez said:
There's nothing wrong with WOW's end-game raiding or PVP instances outside of the rep grinding for rewards. There needs to be a more situational reward-based system that credits you for playing well rather than playing often. It really kills the end-game, imo. To me, the PVE game rewards skill far more than the PVP game, even if both are flawed in their own ways.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
They're both excellent. PvE rewards strategy and commitment, PvP rewards reflexes and quick-thinking - WoW wouldn't be the same without both. I pity those on PvE teaparty servers, sure they get BGs, but random encounters between good players on the other side are always the best fun.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
LOL!Fusebox said:
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Once again, PVP of any sort does not reward reflexes and quick-thinking. It rewards PVE gear progression and class/race choice.Fusebox said:
So if a guy had BWL gear and didn't know jackshit on how to play his class he could beat someone in UBRS type gear,but really knew how to play his class?I don't think so,PVP requires some actual knowledge of the game and your class,especially group PVP where each person has a particular thing they need to be doing,you get 2 guild groups going at it in AB and it's 10x more fun and fulfilling than beating a damn computer boss.
I mean yea,certain classes have an edge,but you still for the most part need to know how to play and react in a timely manner,especially if someone gets the drop on you.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The problem with this argument is that no one would have BWL gear without knowing how to play their class because PVE progression is far more skill based than PVP progression.Ramirez said:
But, for an example: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/index.html?r=Shattered+Hand&faction=h#top
Currently #14 on Horde side on Shattered Hand is Skellator. This man is a Chinese farmer that plays an Undead Warrior. He is known for doing nothing but Thunderclapping and "/1 BOOM" everytime he caps an AB flag. The other 5 of so GAFers that play on SH with me can verify this.
He has no skill and is only found within Battlegrounds Thunderclapping the shit out of everyone because he thinks it is a useful ability. He is a perfect example of how PVP rewards time over skill, and you're free to visit the Shattered Hand realm forums for further evidence.
I reached Knight-Champion before I gave up on the endless PVP grind. I had played AB for over 10 hours a day for a month to reach that point. I do enjoy beating a Horde or two in world PVP, but it's so rare now that Battlegrounds are active. If you honestly believe that world PVP is active and engaging enough to call WOW PVP a success, you're free to your opinion, but it isn't a widely shared viewpoint.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Being successful in PVP requires being on Ventrilo or Teamspeak with a properly geared and accomplished guild that can follow orders and play their class. I know this because my guild is 7-0 in organized AB PVP after recently getting free weekdays off from PVE raiding since we're farming MC and almost done with BWL.Fusebox said:
Ha! Ha!Fusebox said:
You can be the best WoW player in the history of the game, PvP a moderate amount a week, and be lower ranked than the shittiest chinese farmer who queues up for AB 20 hours a day and yells BOOM! when he caps a flag.
He gets the PvP rewards. You get the satisfaction of knowing you're good, but since you have a life of ANY measure and are unwilling to put in the insane time to get ranked highly in PvP, you will never, ever see these rewards.
So explain to me again how these reflexes and quick thinking get you PvP rewards.
Liu:
I'm not buying your PvE rewards skill argument...
Why is it that the mages in my guild are getting MC gear over me? ...DKP... and DKP isn't rewarded on a per skill basis... nope... it's awarded on a time spent basis. Just like our friend PvP.
I won't deny that consistency within PvP will garner you the rewards... but... why shouldn't it? You wanna play 14-18 hours a day on PvP be my guest... enjoy the rewards. I'm pretty content on playing with my guild after our raids and playing up to Legionnaire/Centurion.
But saying that PvE rewards skill is fictional. At least when I get to Legonnaire I know what robes I'm getting... I can't tell you what number I'm gonna roll in an instance or how much DKP is going to be bid in a raid.
...unless you wanna tell me bidding DKP is skill... (and it is in DIFFERENT manner)
But then again... why shouldn't the most loyal players get the shit? I don't know... I really have no answer for this.
I'm not buying your PvE rewards skill argument...
Why is it that the mages in my guild are getting MC gear over me? ...DKP... and DKP isn't rewarded on a per skill basis... nope... it's awarded on a time spent basis. Just like our friend PvP.
I won't deny that consistency within PvP will garner you the rewards... but... why shouldn't it? You wanna play 14-18 hours a day on PvP be my guest... enjoy the rewards. I'm pretty content on playing with my guild after our raids and playing up to Legionnaire/Centurion.
But saying that PvE rewards skill is fictional. At least when I get to Legonnaire I know what robes I'm getting... I can't tell you what number I'm gonna roll in an instance or how much DKP is going to be bid in a raid.
...unless you wanna tell me bidding DKP is skill... (and it is in DIFFERENT manner)
But then again... why shouldn't the most loyal players get the shit? I don't know... I really have no answer for this.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I said that PVE rewards skill more than PVP, not that PVE rewards skill only. PVE is equally time-rewarded and broken in terms of balance, and the General forums reflect the casual population's disgust at it. However, PVE does reward skill more than instanced PVP, even if it doesn't take very much.Apple Jax said:
DKP is an artificial loot distribution system that happens to be used in a majority of raids. There are raids rewarding those via priority or free rolling. Also, you're more than likely to be booted from a raid/guild for slacking or sucking, while it takes waiting for a GM response for someone to be booted from AV for jumping every five minutes.
Regardless, this ignores that to earn DKP, the raid must understand the PVE encounters and master them in order to regularly defeat bosses and earn points. While many of us LOL at Lucifron, there are many, many guilds crying at night over not being able to conquer this fight. It's completely skill based, as boring and tiresome as MC can be to a lot of us who now have it on farm status.
Azwethinkweiz
Member
Molten Core is the most boring 3 hours of my week, every week. Stupid Ragnaros, drop my cloak of shrouded mists already.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I see you've never been in on a Bloodscalp guild vs. guild AB fracas.
i hate AB, possibly because it feels to me like it's wow's version of 2fort (or for those of you who never played TF, de_dust). and overall I do get bored of BGs pretty easily now, unless it's a guild group (and sadly not enough of my guildies want to do BGs - then again I'm on a pve server so I guess I deserve it).
Teknopathetic
Member
I'm beginning to see the discrepancy between the two sides of the PvP argument. One side feels rewarded by the excitement and fun, the other only feels rewarded by new gear.
the "excitement and fun" disappears after you've pvped a bunch for weeks or even months and most of the combat comes down to the same strategy for x class vs another class every time. there is really no difference between the way i handle a fury or arms warrior, or any rogue spec, etc. for each class in pvp. the combat isn't as hectic as FPS or RTS games either, so there's a lot less twitch (or if you want to look at it another way, a lot less variability). it only comes down to player skill to a point - the average, competent player can beat x classes they're supposed to beat, especially if they have better gear.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
firex said:
You can get burned out on anything. That doesn't mean organized AB matches are any less fun.
Also Apple Jax: You are rewarded as a group. What your guild chooses to do with the reward is up to them.
yeah, I guess I just think that pvp/BGs have a higher burnout rate (at least for me) than pve raids (even though those are also a bit boring). I still like really organized matches, but I don't get to do a lot of those. and god I wish they'd have another BG. my favorite of the 3 so far is definitely WSG just because I've always liked CTF games.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Yea I definently think there needs to be a new BG. AV is really too much of a clusterfuck to enjoy, WSG can be endless at times, and 3v2 node AB games are pretty much the most boring thing I've ever played.
WTF? Grinding is skill? Having a good run shows the players involved are not brain dead, but I really haven't run across a lot of need for gaming skill in WOW yet. Just a lot of patience.
And WOW pvp is an abortion. Normally PVP uses more skill, but there's so much ganking and twinking in WOW that skill is not really involved.
Teknopathetic
Member
"And WOW pvp is an abortion. Normally PVP uses more skill, but there's so much ganking and twinking in WOW that skill is not really involved."
In 10-29 BGs that's true. Putting a high level enchantment on a character is only really effective at those levels. Once you get in the high 30s/early 40s, that firey enchant is an annoyance at best and at 50-59, it's commonplace.
In 10-29 BGs that's true. Putting a high level enchantment on a character is only really effective at those levels. Once you get in the high 30s/early 40s, that firey enchant is an annoyance at best and at 50-59, it's commonplace.
Teknopathetic said:
I imagine the PVP is a bit more balanced at level 60, but thats a lot of time to spend to get to decent PVP.
There's still ganking though, which is a non-BG issue.
This I can agree to. I've been in a big 7 group raid and it was fun in an all out war sort of way. It's a seemingly random thing though. Tonight somebody tried to start one, but it was mostly a standoff until the server reset.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I imagine the PVP is a bit more balanced at level 60, but thats a lot of time to spend to get to decent PVP."
Not even at 60, it starts around 30.
"There's still ganking though, which is a non-BG issue."
That's going to happen in any MMORPG with open PVP. Not limited to WoW at all, in fact, being ganked in WoW just wastes some time walking back to your corpse. In some other MMORPGs there was the risk of losing your shit. That said, it's the reason why I left a PvP server to go back to my PvE one.
Not even at 60, it starts around 30.
"There's still ganking though, which is a non-BG issue."
That's going to happen in any MMORPG with open PVP. Not limited to WoW at all, in fact, being ganked in WoW just wastes some time walking back to your corpse. In some other MMORPGs there was the risk of losing your shit. That said, it's the reason why I left a PvP server to go back to my PvE one.
Well I've been doing level 30s BGs and I haven't noticed too much a difference. The problem on this server is that the ABs are like 15 Horde and 7 Alliance. One time it was 15 to 3 and they just camped the graveyard until the countdown ended. I didn't want to leave because then I'd have to wait for my deserter flag to wear off.
As for ganking, you could just institute a "don't bother me" flag or something along that line. Maybe PVP and PVE should just be seperated though.
Like yesterday I was grinding/leveling in Alterac killing mountain lions for a quest and yettis jsut for exp, plus I could mine up on the mountaintop. I had been doing this for a few days because it's nice and lonely up there, its not ganktown like STV. Then I notice somehow an extra yetti is aggro'd onto me and halfway throuhg fighting it a rogue pops up and starts attacking but I can't visually tell what he's hitting. He ends up killing me. The usual, aggro and gank when they're at half health deal. Then he camps my corpse for a couple of ressurections. I just kept trying to run because I didn't feel like fighting. I just got fed up after the second time, resed, ran and used a potion. He ran up behind me before I had full health and had about a fourth of mana left. So it wasn't even straight up even, but I still beat him. But it was like.. wow, he got honor points for three kills but he couldn't beat me head to head. Where is the reward for skill there?
Teknopathetic
Member
"Well I've been doing level 30s BGs and I haven't noticed too much a difference. The problem on this server is that the ABs are like 15 Horde and 7 Alliance. One time it was 15 to 3 and they just camped the graveyard until the countdown ended. I didn't want to leave because then I'd have to wait for my deserter flag to wear off."
The only enchant I could think of that could make a noticeable difference in the 30 bracket would be crusader and that's generally too expensive to bother with.
"Like yesterday I was grinding/leveling in Alterac killing mountain lions for a quest and yettis jsut for exp, plus I could mine up on the mountaintop. I had been doing this for a few days because it's nice and lonely up there, its not ganktown like STV. Then I notice somehow an extra yetti is aggro'd onto me and halfway throuhg fighting it a rogue pops up and starts attacking but I can't visually tell what he's hitting. He ends up killing me. The usual, aggro and gank when they're at half health deal. Then he camps my corpse for a couple of ressurections. I just kept trying to run because I didn't feel like fighting. I just got fed up after the second time, resed, ran and used a potion. He ran up behind me before I had full health and had about a fourth of mana left. So it wasn't even straight up even, but I still beat him. But it was like.. wow, he got honor points for three kills but he couldn't beat me head to head. Where is the reward for skill there?"
Unless you're particularly high ranking, he didn't get much honor for the first kill and by the 3rd kill he got an even smaller fraction of that. There's no reward there for either side. Again, that just comes with playing on a PvP server.
The only enchant I could think of that could make a noticeable difference in the 30 bracket would be crusader and that's generally too expensive to bother with.
"Like yesterday I was grinding/leveling in Alterac killing mountain lions for a quest and yettis jsut for exp, plus I could mine up on the mountaintop. I had been doing this for a few days because it's nice and lonely up there, its not ganktown like STV. Then I notice somehow an extra yetti is aggro'd onto me and halfway throuhg fighting it a rogue pops up and starts attacking but I can't visually tell what he's hitting. He ends up killing me. The usual, aggro and gank when they're at half health deal. Then he camps my corpse for a couple of ressurections. I just kept trying to run because I didn't feel like fighting. I just got fed up after the second time, resed, ran and used a potion. He ran up behind me before I had full health and had about a fourth of mana left. So it wasn't even straight up even, but I still beat him. But it was like.. wow, he got honor points for three kills but he couldn't beat me head to head. Where is the reward for skill there?"
Unless you're particularly high ranking, he didn't get much honor for the first kill and by the 3rd kill he got an even smaller fraction of that. There's no reward there for either side. Again, that just comes with playing on a PvP server.
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