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[Kataploom]

Not sure what you’re saying.
The ps3 was known for being difficult to develop for. The memory wasn’t unified. The gpu was weak. And the cpu required a lot of multi threading to get the most out of it. And obviously the series s takes more work as well with its weaker gpu and less available ram.

With PS3, you had to develop for it specifically, even more so being so different from anything else, but with Series S you literally just develop one version on Series X and you don't have to "down port" or whatever, you just adjust or remove features as you see it fits. the Series S doesn't have a specific SDK for it, you just use the Series X and develop for it and use that same version with adjustments.

That's my understanding of how it works based on devs comments, interviews, etc.

 

[Kataploom]

Devs get a console before it comes out. They had worked with it. Even assuming for the sake of argument that they didn’t have it, what would they have discovered once they had the system? Did it have some hidden high speed RAM they weren't aware of? They were senior engine developers. They knew the RAM amount and bandwidth on a fairly standardised piece of hardware. What would they have discovered to compensate that?



Define "complex". BG3 is doing splitscreen meaning it has some more requirements that starfield doesn't, because it is simultaneously maintaining assets from two parts of the world in RAM and rendering them simultaneously.


That's not how it works for everything if it's a gameplay feature. Take the BG3 example, series s is having issues but that prevents or delays a Series X release until they figure something out. Now if Larian Studios wanted to avoid that 'sharp corner' they could have just cut splitscreen from everything and planned ahead and not announced it for their next game.

If you're not hitting your performance ceiling on console then you're doing it wrong, you're meant to hit the ceiling. Resolution isn't where you need "planning" or where the Series S would limit XSX/PS5. It's things like assets, modes, map layout/size etc.

Let's just wait, once current gen only with more complex stuff start coming out, there will be no excuse to be "concerned"... I mean, there are currently none considering how games are running on S compared to X and PS5 but whatever, it's never gonna be enough it seems.

 

[Heisenberg007]

With PS3, you had to develop for it specifically, even more so being so different from anything else, but with Series S you literally just develop one version on Series X and you don't have to "down port" or whatever, you just adjust or remove features as you see it fits. the Series S doesn't have a specific SDK for it, you just use the Series X and develop for it and use that same version with adjustments.

That's my understanding of how it works based on devs comments, interviews, etc.

You can't remove features. Microsoft's agreement demands feature parity between Series S and Series X. Hence, the potential compromises on the scale of a game.

 

[Banjo64]

Sounds like a rough statement to make. I like the series s a lot but it's obviously been a pain for devs to master.

I agree. I won’t jump on him, just not sure why he’s not gone with a bland PR statement like ‘we’ll always assist our partners with development if needed’.

By saying this he’s acknowledging that there are sharp corners, and that devs will need to release one full game before they are up to scratch for a second release. Flies in the face of their previous statements that development should be a smooth and easy process due to their tools.

I just don’t get why he’s said this.

 

[Moses85]

Lolazy devs

Silly Hardware planning and developing Team.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I agree. I won’t jump on him, just not sure why he’s not gone with a bland PR statement like ‘we’ll always assist our partners with development if needed’.

By saying this he’s acknowledging that there are sharp corners, and that devs will need to release one full game before they are up to scratch for a second release. Flies in the face of their previous statements that development should be a smooth and easy process due to their tools.

I just don’t get why he’s said this.

I think it's fairly obvious why someone like Mr. Booty (kek) will say this.

Matt is the Head of XGS. When first-party developers don't end up releasing their games (1) in time or (2) properly optimized, it is his neck on the line. He has to answer why there were delays and/or why the games were not properly optimized or, even, ambitious enough.

If his teams can't operate effectively because of Series S, he would be against such a product -- because it makes him look bad.

I don't doubt Matt would have already talked to Phil about abandoning Series S (maybe before or after the console's launch). Phil being the overall Head of Gaming, would have persisted because of strategical and business-related decisions -- factors that don't directly concern Matt.

So, it's possible that Matt and his teams are being penalized (and blamed) because of the problems they are facing due to Series S. This is Matt's frustration coming out.

 

[Kataploom]

You can't remove features. Microsoft's agreement demands feature parity between Series S and Series X. Hence, the potential compromises on the scale of a game.

You have Series S versions ditching RT or performance mode these days tho

 

[Heisenberg007]

You have Series S versions ditching RT or performance mode these days tho

Yeah, but they are more like graphical settings. But gameplay features must be the same.

However, I'd say that even removing RT or performance modes goes against what Microsoft promised, which was "the same experience as Series X, only at a lower resolution."

 

[cireza]

The guy is asking developers to do their job properly. The nerve !

 

[Kataploom]

Yeah, but they are more like graphical settings. But gameplay features must be the same.

However, I'd say that even removing RT or performance modes goes against what Microsoft promised, which was "the same experience as Series X, only at a lower resolution."

Well, yes... I'm on an optimistic wait and see, I think before XSS start bottlenecking development on bigger consoles, their own limitations and budget/deadlines will hit first.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It'd seem Microsoft have yet to offer packages to help devs specifically target the Series consoles

Not sure how they interested they are on that, they had an Xbox specific XDK they killed off in favour of a more general one. They do have slightly more Xbox specific techniques available, it is a console with deeper customised approaches available, but I think MS wants to make sure Xbox becomes more and more like a pre-built PC people do not optimise for much… which is a problem for the XSS.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I agree. I won’t jump on him, just not sure why he’s not gone with a bland PR statement like ‘we’ll always assist our partners with development if needed’.

By saying this he’s acknowledging that there are sharp corners, and that devs will need to release one full game before they are up to scratch for a second release. Flies in the face of their previous statements that development should be a smooth and easy process due to their tools.

I just don’t get why he’s said this.

Completely agree. If ms want to bring this type of console to market they need to support devs in getting games running on it.

 

[Corndog]

With PS3, you had to develop for it specifically, even more so being so different from anything else, but with Series S you literally just develop one version on Series X and you don't have to "down port" or whatever, you just adjust or remove features as you see it fits. the Series S doesn't have a specific SDK for it, you just use the Series X and develop for it and use that same version with adjustments.

That's my understanding of how it works based on devs comments, interviews, etc.

Sounds about right.

 

[Corndog]

You can't remove features. Microsoft's agreement demands feature parity between Series S and Series X. Hence, the potential compromises on the scale of a game.

The only severe bottleneck is the ram. As long as your game fits I don’t see why you would have to change the scale of the game.
I personally wish they had made it 6tf and 14+ go ram. That way all one x games would work and the ram would be a non issue.

 

[adamsapple]

The guy is asking developers to do their job properly. The nerve !

That booty.

 

[GustavoLT]

Everybody knows that 30fps and low res are the true art form in video games!!!

 

[RaySoft]

Fake news.

He didn’t say devs should plan better. He said when they move on to their second game they CAN plan better because they know what to expect.

True, but I reacted more on his "corner" remark, literally admitting its weaknesses. Why design it that way in the first place?

 

[Heisenberg007]

The only severe bottleneck is the ram. As long as your game fits I don’t see why you would have to change the scale of the game.
I personally wish they had made it 6tf and 14+ go ram. That way all one x games would work and the ram would be a non issue.

This is a catch-22:

• Did the game fit and the scale of the game did not need to be changed despite the game's existence on Series S, or
• Was the scale of the game compromised, and that is why the game exists on the Series S?

Unfortunately, the way things happen in this industry, we will never learn the truth -- barring a few exceptions here and there.

 

[Corndog]

This is a catch-22:

• Did the game fit and the scale of the game did not need to be changed despite the game's existence on Series S, or
• Was the scale of the game compromised, and that is why the game exists on the Series S?

Unfortunately, the way things happen in this industry, we will never learn the truth -- barring a few exceptions here and there.

What do you mean by scale? Again. The only big bottleneck is ram. By lowering resolution and texture quality you get some of that back. Maybe you could have a ram bandwidth problem.

If we had a developer in here we may learn of additional issues.

 

[hinch7]

Or they could've just released one SKU and save devs the headache. And not prolong dev time which is already getting silly already.

Not quite on the level but getting there with similar energy as Ken Kutaragi, during the PS3 era.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I don't think MS is ever going to repeat this. Next time we'll see one console, with perhaps different storage options.

The biggest mistake they made was the RAM solution I think. This is also why unpatched Xbox One games don't run on the superior One X profile. Its just that for legacy games its extra work to make a game run well on XSS. XSX just takes the One X profile by default, XSS does not unless they do extra work on it. I think this is an oversight. But once done, the XSS is quite a bit better than One X usually featuring double the framerate, heavily reduced load times, VRR etc.

 

[Kumomeme]

also could mean that devs should develop games with Series S in mind as lower baseline

 

[Ar¢tos]

The guy is asking developers to do their job properly. The nerve !

He is asking devs to compromise their creative vision to accommodate a weaker machine with less memory (ex: Larian studios with split screen for BG3).
You should have a problem with that since you have been defending Bethesda for having Starfield run at 30fps to realize their creative vision...

 

[cireza]

You should have a problem with that since you have been defending Bethesda for having Starfield run at 30fps to realize their creative vision...

I didn't though, so I don't have any issue with that. You guys are so paranoid you see enemies everywhere. People you talk to on forums are not a single entity, they are several people with different point of views.

I am actually waiting for Starfield to be 60fps to play it.

Budget consoles are a great thing, this has always been my point of view and it won't change. Not everybody can afford a 500$ machine, and Series S is a godsend for people with a tight budget for them and/or their kids. You get access to something very close to the premium experience for a fraction of the price.

Developers can do excellent conversions to less powerful consoles if they try, and yes, you have to plan a little bit ahead. People bitch about creative vision and then we get games like Tears of the Kingdom, which is supposedly a creative masterpiece, running of Switch.

 

[Metnut]

Might as well just skip XBox if Microsoft can’t be reasonable, especially since Microsoft is conditioning so many of their customers to only rent stuff via Gamepass and not buy new games.

 

[SportsFan581]

How? The resolution struggle with the Series S is mainly gpu related. Memory constraints are different and related to other things like map sizes, enemies on screen, BVH raytracing. How would the industry be proving that wrong? Especially as 'the industry' is complaining and id actually released doom on Series S without raytracing exactly as they predicted they would?

But the XSX and PS5 still feature the RT correct? And games that required RT in some way (Exodus, UE5 demo, etc.) have included it on the XSS in those cases correct?

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

MS should allow devs to release a game only on Series X and skip the S.

O shure...And MS could say to all the buyers of the SeriesS, "Younwant to play the games on an Xbox Series?
Buy the seriesX and use the seriesS that you bought as a paperweight...fuck you dumbasses".

 

[adamsapple]

What do you mean by scale? Again. The only big bottleneck is ram. By lowering resolution and texture quality you get some of that back. Maybe you could have a ram bandwidth problem.

If we had a developer in here we may learn of additional issues.

The most impressive thing on consoles right now, including an open world component, i-e The Matrix Experience, runs on Series S with all the bells and whistles.

 

[RoboFu]

And say to all the buyers of the SeriesS, you want to play the games on an Xbox Series?
Buy the seriesX and use the seriesS that you bought as a paperweight...fuck you dumbasses

Why does it matter to you what other people buy?

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

Why does it matter to you what other people buy?

You dont get it dont you? Read again what Forthysia sayd and read my answer again. Dont try to get mad couse dont get what the purpose was from my answer...Cool down "one of the green rats.

 

[UnravelKatharsis]

They should just make more "creative choices."

 

[mitch1971]

Game dev: I'm planning on not making a Series S version.

Plan executed.

 

[fran.fernandez]

Pretty sure before they said devs won’t need to do anything . It just render in lower resssss

 

[hyperbertha]

Not a fan of Series S, but if multiplat games could run on Nintendo Switch, there are no reason it can't on Series S, just reduce frame rate to 30, resolution to sub 1080p, low res texture etc.

If you buy a budget console, expect budget experience, as simple as that

There are certain thing in game design that cannot be scaled down. For eg shadow of mordor nemesis system was heavily gutted for it's PS3 version. With xbox, the series S will limit what multiplatform devs can do since in order to keep parity ms won't allow them to remove features.

 

[Topher]

Game dev: I'm planning on not making a Series S version.

Plan executed.

Then that game dev is skipping Xbox altogether....

 

[proandrad]

Good devs can work inside hardware limitation. How about starting development on Series S and then improving that version for Series X/PS5.

 

[RoboFu]

There are certain thing in game design that cannot be scaled down. For eg shadow of mordor nemesis system was heavily gutted for it's PS3 version. With xbox, the series S will limit what multiplatform devs can do since in order to keep parity ms won't allow them to remove features.

The ps3 had 256megs of ram for gameplay and 256 for vram.

That’s nothing like from the ps4 and onward. It’s not the same… not many apps without bitmaps and sound will be over 1 gig. On the series S it’s all vram limited. You will see missing or lower textures , missing or lower post process effects, but nothing game wise should ever be lesser.

 

[bbeach123]

Nothing a 480p 20fps cant fix .

 

[hyperbertha]

The ps3 had 256megs of ram for gameplay and 256 for vram.

That’s nothing like from the ps4 and onward. It’s not the same… not many apps without bitmaps and sound will be over 1 gig. On the series S it’s all vram limited. You will see missing or lower textures , missing or lower post process effects, but nothing game wise should ever be lesser.

The memory pool both vram and ram is limited on series S correct?

 

[hyperbertha]

The guy is asking developers to do their job properly. The nerve !

Devs job is to make proper next gen games, not gimp their games for a last gen system.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

Which ms studios games don’t run well
On S?

Well once we get out of the cross-gen games it’s very possible that Series S starts to perform much worse. We won’t know until more current gen exclusives start coming out.

Right now I would say all the first party games run pretty well. FH5 for example looks and runs great even on performance mode.

 

[MarkMe2525]

That guy needs to be quiet. 2022 is still not that far away. The most disgraced year for Xbox's history. How can you not plan for something like that.

But here is the thing, what sort of conversation should we have in this thread. Should we talk about the fictitious assertion that Matt Booty made? Should we be talking about how they released no major games in 2022? Should we be talking about how Matt Booty shouldn't be taking interviews because of reasons?

The person you responded to was just pointing out how the premise of this thread is fundamentally flawed, and it seems like you are justifying it's existence by invoking these tangintly related topics.

 

[feynoob]

But here is the thing, what sort of conversation should we have in this thread. Should we talk about the fictitious assertion that Matt Booty made? Should we be talking about how they released no major games in 2022? Should we be talking about how Matt Booty shouldn't be taking interviews because of reasons?

The person you responded to was just pointing out how the premise of this thread is fundamentally flawed, and it seems like you are justifying it's existence by invoking these tangintly related topics.

He needs to act like herman hulst. You dont see that guy talking like him.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I don't get why the platform with lower marketshare still has parity clauses.
They could, in certain exceptional situations, waive the XSX/XSS parity (example BG3 with split screen on XSX and without on XSS) or the PS5 parity (example BG3 with split screen on PS5 and without on XSS/XSX).
But instead their response is, "plan better".
"Now that you've made one game for XSS and know how gimped it is, plan your next game better!"
They could offer more technical help and/or exceptionally remove the parity demands, but no... They say "Reduce your creative ambition and/or allocate more money/time/resources for the Xbox versions"
They want devs to have double the work for half of the profit.
No wonder some devs are ditching Xbox and making their games PC and PS5.

 

[cireza]

Devs job is to make proper next gen games, not gimp their games for a last gen system.

Nope. Devs are paid to make the game on the platforms decided by the publisher.

 

[skit_data]

Not to keep harping on the Series S but;

"Developers need to plan ahead" sure does sound like a paraphrase of "having to always account for the lowest common denominator".
The implications of that are fairly obvious (it may impact the end product in multiplat titles not only for the Series X but the PS5 as well) and indirectly justifies a lot of the initial skepticism aimed towards the Series S IMO.

 

[SHA]

Like how to make 3d objects out of potatoes.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Might as well just skip XBox if Microsoft can’t be reasonable, especially since Microsoft is conditioning so many of their customers to only rent stuff via Gamepass and not buy new games.

This is going to be a big issue for MS if they keep going down this road they are on. Devs want to make money, and the way to make money is selling the product they make. They won't care what MS says nor make games for Xbox if no one who owns Xbox buys any games because they are all used to getting them for free.

 

[Kappa]

Dx12 really exposed shitty/lazy devs. The biggest issue they could've had was a weaker CPU between consoles, but that's not an issue this gen. No more free rides and we've seen it time and time again this gen especially with PC releases

 

[MikeM]

Not sure that is the message MS wants to send to devs when you are third place.