Interfectum
Member
Buy a Steam Controller.
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XCOM 2 (PC/Mac/Linux, Firaxis, November 2015) announced [Up: New info/screens in OP]
- Thread starter dex3108
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Buy a Steam Controller.
That's bullshit. Playing strategy games and CRPGs is quite simply much better on a monitor/mouse/KB setup.I know there are still a bunch of dinosaurs here on GAF who play their video games while hunched over their desks, but that's not the direction our hobby is heading. Thankfully. We used to play PC games like that because we had to... now we don't.
Yeah, right. This writing?
How, exactly, do you expect KB/M to diminish to niche status in 5 years when the fastest growing games on PC are all M/KB games?
Shake Appeal
Member
This isn't an interesting argument because it's decades old, and your side has consistently lost. PC gaming is still here, and it still largely resembles PC gaming of old, and people are still going to play niche games with the best possible control scheme, and that is likely going to be a mouse and keyboard. I say this as someone who has an Xbox controller plugged into his laptop at all times. Many, many people prefer to play most games with a mouse, and some games are unplayable with anything else. Hell, some people will tell you FPS games are unplayable with anything else.
You are not a technoprophet. ;-) You are saying the same thing people said in the 1990s, and it was foolish then.
molnizzle
Member
The fastest growing games on PC are big fish in a small pond.
I just think the pond is about to become an ocean. To think otherwise is to expect for Valve to fail. I just don't see that happening. =P
This isn't an interesting argument because it's decades old, and your side has consistently lost. PC gaming is still here, and it still largely resembles PC gaming of old, and people are still going to play niche games with the best possible control scheme, and that is likely going to be a mouse and keyboard. Many, many people prefer to play games this way, and some games are unplayable with anything else. Hell, some people will tell you FPS games are unplayable with anything else.
You are not a technoprophet. ;-) You are saying the same thing people said in the 1990s, and it was foolish then.
What I'm saying is totally different. Like, the exact opposite. In the 90's people were saying that PC gaming would die, lol.
So you are saying countries like Russia, China and Korea and other Asian nations will become console centric?
You like to talk about how you know trends and the future.
But it shows clearly you don't really know anything about the demographics of PC gaming.
(Hint the U.S. And Euope is not the worlds gaming Market)
Evidence please? Keyboard and mouse games dominate PC gaming and are getting bigger. To say otherwise is being willfully ignorant.
You are just spouting a lot of hot air right now. With nothing to show for it besides your 'intuition'.
Shake Appeal
Member
"Success" for Valve isn't replacing every mouse with a Steam controller. Your arguments are inane. =P =P =P
WhirlwindMonk
Banned
The last game was designed from the beginning around the limitations of a couch/controller setup. Remove those limitations, and the amount of tactical information they can give us at a glance or behind a single button press increases enormously. Yes, this can't actually make you better, necessarily, like it could in a real time game, but as far as I'm concerned, the more time I spend shooting aliens instead of digging through layers of info menus (or being frustrated that's the information that I want and should be able to know simply isn't available), the more enjoyable the experience.
molnizzle
Member
We'll see. I think "success" for Valve is overtaking Sony and Microsoft in the console space, and that market is way larger than the desktop computer market.
Again, evidence please.
You keep spouting things if they are they dire truth without any backing in order to further your point.
League of legends player numbers in themselves dwarf the current gen consoles by itself
Teletraan1
Banned
Havent you heard? Consoles are holding back PC.
More like budgets are holding back PC. If they are too cheap to make a PS4/XB1 version what made everyone think they were going to spend over the bare minimum to give us the serviceable graphics on display here. I played the previous on PC and this again looks better than the previous installment. Just like Fallout 4. That is what we get now no matter how much people spend on tri Titan X's.
molnizzle
Member
Shake Appeal
Member
The PC gaming market is far larger than the console gaming market. You are clueless. Please go away.
There's also the fact that VR doesn't work very well with KB/M.
What? Neither does it on standard console controllers.
People in this thread talking about Xcom and controller support are not talking about VR controllers.
What a non sequitur.
And you talking about consoles over taking PCs and bringing up something even more niche currently. VR.
LurkerPrime
Member
This is why the aliens won, you guys.
Interfectum
Member
So... molvetica is whining about XCOM 2 not having controller support while shilling Steam Machines that feature controllers that will fully support XCOM 2. Round and round we go!
What? Dude, even back a few years ago when PC sales where being reported as being in the shitter (they've since bounced back a bit), PC sales worldwide moved more units in a single quarter than Microsoft sold Xbox 360's in like 5+ years.
The PC GAMING market is much larger or a bit smaller than consoles, depending on how you want to slice it.
Got me good.
Lol.
No. They aren't. Not by a long shot. More people play League of Legends than any controller-driven game, on PC and consoles.
Hell, there might be more people playing League of Legends and DOTA 2 together than all controller-driven games.
Shake Appeal
Member
It's much larger.
(http://jonpeddie.com/publications/pc_gaming_hardware_market_report/ from last July)
Twice the size. Committed gamers not interested in pure content consumption. Maximum horsepower in a desktop ergonomic environment. Sure sounds like PC gaming to me.
Steam Link and the Steam Controller are designed to add to that experience and make it more attractive to converts, not to replace it.
molnizzle
Member
I'm just using Steam Machine to illustrate my point, which is that I think the PC gaming market is about to massively expand. I think Valve is going to be eating PlayStation and Xbox's lunch before too long. I guess it's a bold prediction, I've just been conditioned to expect absolute domination from Valve.
As for XCOM it's the UI thing that I was originally bitching about. And also the fact that the first game had perfect native controller support and didn't require a special controller that emulates a mouse cursor on its trackpads.
Shake Appeal
Member
You just "boldly" predicted something that's been happening for years. Just stop.
molnizzle
Member
Depends on what metric you're using? I don't really care what overall the "games played on computers" market is doing. That includes shit like FarmVille and whatever other nonsense. For big budget AAA stuff consoles usually do a hell of a lot better in sales. One exception being XCOM: Enemy Unknown, apparently. ;-)
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yes big budget console games do better on consoles.
Why would that be?
I don't think you really know or understand the PC gaming market.
The fact that you only include AAA console games is very very telling. And brush off everything else as 'FarmVille' as if FarmVille is even relevant these days.
LurkerPrime
Member
This is why XCOM 2 is KB&M only (I'm leaving it big so you can see it):
Please note how the UI is layed out, particularly the number of buttons, plus the collapsible tabs on the sides for extra info and tiny tertiary info in the bottom corners.
Now note that this is the most straightforward part of the game - controlling a single unit.
None of this would work on a console-style layout. It would need to be entirely redesigned to support both, which would most likely necessitate redesigning the game so it uses less buttons. In other words, a compromise of the original vision for XCOM 2.
molnizzle
Member
I do, I just think that it's going to change. It seems pretty obvious to me that it's already starting to.
I mean, it wasn't that long ago that playing new AAA games on my PC from the couch wasn't even a realistic option. PC gaming is in a very different place than it was when people first started figuring out how to use their computers' hardware input devices to control video games.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I agree, but for completely opposite reasons.
I see the Xbox / Playstation style console dying out, not having "infinitely more potential" than a PC does.
When you limit your evidence to evidence that supports your position, and willfully write off everything else, i'm sure it looks that way.
But all the facts you are using to support your theory are wrong, so it really shouldn't be at all obvious that what you think is going to happen is an actual trend. In fact the real trend is that when the PC development market embraced the platform instead of trying to make it have parity with the HD twins, the market exploded. Focusing on KB&M games, not controller games, is what got the current PC market more software revenue than the console market.
TC McQueen
Member
I dunno, XCOM: EU had a pretty good system for switching between enemies and soldier commands during targeting if you used a controller. In fact, aside from changing the icons in the bottom right corner, the icon in the upper right, and the reticule with the hit percent, this looks a lot like EU's interface. The collapsible panels are the only thing that might cause problems, and something like that could be mapped to pressing on the control sticks.This is why XCOM 2 is KB&M only (I'm leaving it big so you can see it):
Please note how the UI is layed out, particularly the number of buttons, plus the collapsible tabs on the sides for extra info and tiny tertiary info in the bottom corners.
Now note that this is the most straightforward part of the game - controlling a single unit.
None of this would work on a console-style layout. It would need to be entirely redesigned to support both, which would most likely necessitate redesigning the game so it uses less buttons. In other words, a compromise of the original vision for XCOM 2.
Xplatformer
Member
Asshats. Dammit.
Xplatformer
Member
It sucked for Mass Effect. Hell, that's why there was a kickstarter. Unreasonably obtuse to set up perfectly.
You really need me to explain to you why using a controller is, to me, more enjoyable than pushing keys on a 110 key keyboard? If I have to explain it you're never going to get it. I simply prefer the interface REGARDLESS OF GAME. Normally, if I can't play a game with a controller I simply don't play it. Heck...I haven't even attempted to finish more than 10% of Mass Effect 2 because I don't want to do W,A, S, D for hours, or look at my keyboard when I want something done.
Maybe it's because I've been mostly sports/3rd person gaming for the past 15 years and it's the control scheme I've gotten use to when I game. Hell, it's the control scheme I got use to on PC with my xbox 360 controller.
I want controller support too, but you're wrong about what the PC gaming market will look like in 5 years. If the PC gaming market thought something were better than KB/M, it would have come out at some time between 1982 and now.
I think the opportunity is there for the PS4 controller to use it's trackpad like a mouse for selecting things, but I don't think any developers are even attempting to use it as such.
Total War: Warhammer....example. How the hell would that game realistically be playable with a controller without a trackpad?
molnizzle
Member
One of those facts is that Valve's spent millions on R&D (let alone man-hours) over the past few years to get Steam into the living room.
I don't agree.
But - it doesn't matter.
Do you think a developer is smart to develop for the market that might exist in a couple of years? Or the market that does exist when their game is to be released?
And remember, it is a very specific market: Turn base strategy games.
That has been one of the important lessons of the resurgence in PC gaming: It doesn't matter if the consoles have a larger consumer base or not, if those consumers aren't the type that want your style of game. Developer after developer has come to the realization that they can be profitable by making the type of game they love, but only by catering to the tastes of the niche it serves.
Firaxis tried to capture that larger market with XCom EU. There is a lot of (circumstantial) evidence that it performed poorly in the 'larger' console market, and very well on the smaller PC market. This was because for the most part gamers who wanted turn based strategy games were on the PC. And most of them were using mouse and keyboard.
It's simply good business sense for them to insure their core audience is pleased before trying to port it to other platforms. And that means making the mouse and keyboard controls as ideal as possible.
Where Steam Machines and PCs and Consoles will be in 5 years has nothing to do with that, and it would be foolish to design the game with such a far and uncertain future in mind.
They also made millions and millions on just dota 2
They made over 40 million from the current compendium alone.
molnizzle
Member
Absolutely, I agree 100%.
So design your PC game how you want, just include native controller support if the last game in your series already had it. I liked Enemy Unknown, but I liked playing with a controller. Using a pad doesn't have to be the optimal or preferred method. It just has to work. With the last game they designed the interface around controller and gimped KB/M, so fine, reverse that. I'm cool with "gimped" controller functionality — all I want is native support. It just has to let me play the game from my couch without having to futz with a third-party controller mapper or unproven (but hopefully good...) trackpad emulation.
Is this an admission that you were wrong about the state of the market? I can accept that as a compromise.
Teletraan1
Banned
I prefer to play games that have controller support on my TV on my couch. Games that do not have controller support I play at my monitor with KB/M. I have never found XPadder to be worth a damn and always played those games with a KB/M.
I played the previous installment of this game on my TV with a controller for the most part and it performed well and I preferred it over KB/M for this game series because it just felt better. Just because they fucked up the KB/M controls for the last game doesn't mean they should cut out options. Perhaps doing a better job on the KB/M controls instead of them being an afterthought and providing Controller support as well would be better than bickering about League of Legends. A game that requires precision lest you be told to go kill yourself by a 14 year old.
I played the previous installment of this game on my TV with a controller for the most part and it performed well and I preferred it over KB/M for this game series because it just felt better. Just because they fucked up the KB/M controls for the last game doesn't mean they should cut out options. Perhaps doing a better job on the KB/M controls instead of them being an afterthought and providing Controller support as well would be better than bickering about League of Legends. A game that requires precision lest you be told to go kill yourself by a 14 year old.
molnizzle
Member
From a revenue perspective, I suppose. I was thinking in terms of units sold though, not necessarily revenue.
I mean, the App Store dominates both the PC and console markets in terms of revenue. Doesn't mean that cell phone games are going to replace traditional AAA games.
Traditional AAA games might start selling more on PC though. ;-)
AcceptableGhost
Member
I think Firaxis is trying to turn this game into a Civilization tier hit, and they can't do that designing the game around an awkward controller interface when the game is primarily for the PC strategy audience - that simple. They will add controller support down the road for the niche who want to play it that way (also I wouldn't be surprised if the game ships with native steam controller support) and then probably port it to consoles at that point.
molnizzle
Member
So don't design for controllers then, just make them work. Dragon Age: Origins is a good example of that design philosophy. That game was quite obviously designed for KB/M, the console controls were inferior by just about every metric. I still appreciated being able to play through the game from my couch though. It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario.
I also play Civ V from the couch using Xpadder; having a complex UI doesn't inherently prevent a game from being playable with a controller. Shit, back in my MMO days I used to run WoW raids from the couch. Don't tell my guild though. ;-)
If you think about all the other turn based strategy games on PC, very few of them have controller support.
What makes controller support difficult for these games is the UI and the big amount of clickable stuff. This is something controller have always struggled with and the scource of a lot of "streamlining" classic PC genres underwent in their transition to consoles (prime example being RPG's).
I don't think XCOM will go ful CIV with the UI and overworld complexity but believing what they said in the article some tweaks will be needed to make controllers work well and it's not something they want to bother with at the moment.
Oh man, the funniest part about this entire thing is that I've taken to playing Civ5 with touchscreen controls, so much so that going back to KB/M kinda feels lethargic to me.
Meanwhile console gamers (me included) bitch about mobile/touchscreen controls, and PC FPS players (me included, again!) bitch about thumbstick FPS controls.
WHAT A ZANY WORLD WE LIVE IN
edit: I think it's more probable that all input methodologies aside, Firaxis are banking on user content creation to make it a Civilization tier hit. Civ5 has a workshop. Skyrim has a workshop. Dota 2 and CS:GO sorta have (paid, monetized) workshops. Cities: Skylines (while too recent to have had any real bearing on XCOM2 decision, probably is the closest analogy anyway with its modular lego-esque plug-in pieces) has a workshop. It's no coincidence that all these games are doing really well on Steam and have legs and community involvement beyond simply being good games.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Why do you think cell phone games will never replace traditional AAA games?
If your answer is to do with the difference between controls having to dictate how the game is designed, then you just answered your own "just add controllers" question.
...But the PC gaming revenue is higher than the iPhone gaming revenue. :/
You really aren't that informed about the state of the market. TOTAL phone gaming revenue in 2014 was equal to PC gaming software revenue in 2014, with both ahead of console software revenue.
mr teaspoon
Member
This is why XCOM 2 is KB&M only (I'm leaving it big so you can see it):
Please note how the UI is layed out, particularly the number of buttons, plus the collapsible tabs on the sides for extra info and tiny tertiary info in the bottom corners.
Now note that this is the most straightforward part of the game - controlling a single unit.
None of this would work on a console-style layout. It would need to be entirely redesigned to support both, which would most likely necessitate redesigning the game so it uses less buttons. In other words, a compromise of the original vision for XCOM 2.
However you feel about XCOM 2 being PC only, that's totally not true at all. You're approaching this from the rationale that every single command needs a dedicated button. I'm looking at those commands on the bottom and thinking 'OK, d-pad left and right, right trigger to use'. Just like Enemy Within.
In my opinion, if people are going to hammer home a reason XCOM absolutely NEEDS to be PC-only, mods are the reason. After playing EU, you cannot seriously make the argument that the game is unplayable on a controller. Or that the text is too small. Or that there are, *gasp*, collapsible tabs. Definitely can't map that to L3 and R3, no sir.
molnizzle
Member
I think there's just a disconnect because I lump the MOBA market into the same category as mobile. Not what I'm interested in so I don't particularly care how well its doing, heh. I'm looking at this purely from the perspective of thinking that Valve is in the process of taking over Sony and Microsoft's console userbase. That's a shitload of people, the vast majority of whom are not interested in becoming "power users" and doing typical PC gaming stuff. So my thought process is that if you're developing a PC game and that game even has the potential to serve that market, then you need to serve that market.
Especially if your last game already did and you now have a portion of your fanbase who wants that. -_-
Wait, I know we joke a lot about "I don't like it so it doesn't count lalalala" on GAF, but really.
Especially when Valve (YOUR Valve, actually) is making bank on Dota. Like right this instant.
Yusuf is that you? how is the 1 Billion Console forecast working out?
I dont think we have to "fear" Gamepads overtaking KBAM. before this scenario comes true, we already lost against mobile touch controls.
How would you feel if someone wanted to tell you, that in 5 Years time most of the Console control input scheme would be a touch control? You will swipe to your target and aiming in FPS is just slamming the hand onto the touchpad. How hard you slam will determine if you got an headshot or just a bodykill.
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