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XCOM 2 (PC/Mac/Linux, Firaxis, November 2015) announced [Up: New info/screens in OP]

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molnizzle

Member
Especially when Valve (YOUR Valve, actually) is making bank on Dota. Like right this instant.

Right, but that doesn't affect me as someone who doesn't want to play games at a desk. And there are millions and millions of others like me out there, so I don't need to worry about MOBA's becoming the only games that exist. Valve is making bank in that market but they're also making moves to take over a totally different one. That's the one I care about.

Yusuf is that you? how is the 1 Billion Console forecast working out?

I dont think we have to "fear" Gamepads overtaking KBAM. before this scenario comes true, we already lost against mobile touch controls.

How would you feel if someone wanted to tell you, that in 5 Years time most of the Console control input scheme would be a touch control? You will swipe to your target and aiming in FPS is just slamming the hand onto the touchpad. How hard you slam will determine if you got an headshot or just a bodykill.

Not once did I say that KB/M support should be scrapped though. I do think controllers will eventually overtake it, but that doesn't mean that controllers should be the only input that's supported. Just like KB/M shouldn't be either.
 

Nzyme32

Member
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There's also the fact that VR doesn't work very well with KB/M.

Have you not noticed how all of these different modalities of using a PC compete with each other, not to displace one another, but to offer even more choice to suit everyone's different tastes rather than offering a singular option. The point of all of this is to expand where PC gaming can be - not define what it should be like a console manufacturer would have you believe is the only way people should do anything.
 
Hey guys, what's new in this threa... whoops.

But since I'm quoted:

There's no comfortable way to use KB/M from the couch. Not hard to understand.

For a TBS? A Logitech K400 will work just fine.

You really need me to explain to you why using a controller is, to me, more enjoyable than pushing keys on a 110 key keyboard? If I have to explain it you're never going to get it. I simply prefer the interface REGARDLESS OF GAME. Normally, if I can't play a game with a controller I simply don't play it. Heck...I haven't even attempted to finish more than 10% of Mass Effect 2 because I don't want to do W,A, S, D for hours, or look at my keyboard when I want something done.

Seems unnecessarily self-limiting. Do you use a controller to compose emails too?
 

red36

Neo Member
XCom came out first for PC only then eventually went to consoles/mobile right? They are probably going to continue the same practice. It's possible they make more money from a staggered release due to double dippers.

It also saves them on the cost of patches. They cost money still on consoles right?
 

SparkTR

Member
XCom came out first for PC only then eventually went to consoles/mobile right? They are probably going to continue the same practice. It's possible they make more money from a staggered release due to double dippers.

Are you talking about the whole series or Enemy Unknown? Enemy Unknown was designed primarily to be a console game and launched day and date on all consoles (sans Nintendo platforms), which is why M/KB controls suffered with that game.
 
No consoles, no controllers, no compromises.

Firaxis' Civilization V has been a top 10 by activity on Steam since basically forever. This is a game made for those players, or, in my case, a better pronoun would be "us".
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
No consoles, no controllers, no compromises.

Firaxis' Civilization V has been a top 10 by activity on Steam since basically forever. This is a game made for those players, or, in my case, a better pronoun would be "us".

Word.

I don't see how it's so hard to accept that most people bought the game on PC, and that they don't want to stretch themselves too thin.
 
Word.

I don't see how it's so hard to accept that most people bought the game on PC, and that they don't want to stretch themselves too thin.

It's because fanboyism is an unfortunate thing. Though incidentally, it was actually the PS Plus version of Enemy Unknown that got me to take notice of the series in the first place. Downloaded it out of curiosity, fucking loved it, then got it on Steam when I bought my gaming PC. I do think sales of XCom 2 on consoles would be a lot better than EU, considering that the latter was free on PS3 for a year so a lot more people would be likely to want to play the sequel.
 
I don't see how it's so hard to accept that most people bought the game on PC, and that they don't want to stretch themselves too thin.

It's only hard because EU was a ridiculously good game. If I was a huge fan of Enemy Unknown on a console I'd be a bit miffed too. However, as I said earlier, if you were a big fan of Enemy Unknown you absolutely need to have a PC in your gaming life. The strategy side of the PC scope is nearly 100% exclusive and is insane in its output.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
It's only hard because EU was a ridiculously good game. If I was a huge fan of Enemy Unknown on a console I'd be a bit miffed too. However, as I said earlier, if you were a big fan of Enemy Unknown you absolutely need to have a PC in your gaming life. The strategy side of the PC scope is nearly 100% exclusive and is insane in its output.

Hear hear. GalCiv3 just came out last month and is awesome.

and was a hilarious exploitable buggy mess despite having been in Early Access hahaha
 

Neofire

Member
XCom came out first for PC only then eventually went to consoles/mobile right? They are probably going to continue the same practice. It's possible they make more money from a staggered release due to double dippers.

It also saves them on the cost of patches. They cost money still on consoles right?
Came out first launch wise yes but both UFO and the first xcom game came to Playstation, it wasn't exclusive by any means and im sure due the Playstation console launching in 95 is the only reason it didn't release along side the pc version.
 

nynt9

Member
Came out first launch wise yes but both UFO and the first xcom game came to Playstation, it wasn't exclusive by any means and im sure due the Playstation console launching in 95 is the only reason it didn't release along side the pc version.

Red Alert also had a PS1 version. A lot of PC games back then had a "lip service" console version but they were often rather clunky.
 

Jarate

Banned
It'll be interesting to see how good this game will be on a Steam Controller

Id imagine there'll be controller support unless the gameplay changes drastically from the last one.
 

Wiktor

Member
We'll see. I think "success" for Valve is overtaking Sony and Microsoft in the console space, and that market is way larger than the desktop computer market.

Umm..wat? Console market is petite compared to PCgaming one. Even if Valve would manage to beat consoles (they won't), it will still be a very small niche in the whole pcgaming market.

And consoles suck badly for most pc-centric games. No matter what improvements to pads Valve will implement, they will never be able to match up to KB and mouse.
 
Either day-and-date with XCOM 2’s November launch or soon thereafter, Firaxis intends to release a full suite of modding tools – an Unreal Development Kit (UDK) and the editor the developers use to create content – that will enable modders to run wild with XCOM 2. “It's yours now; do with it what you want.”
Day and date! Day and date!

“We're basically a 20-hour tutorial for The Long War, and that's okay,” admitted Solomon.
Haha.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
It’s no coincidence that many of the games that stay on top of the Steam charts for extended periods (outside of free-to-play and/or eSport games like Dota 2 and Counter-Strike) are popular playgrounds for modders:

yo IGN, dunno if you've noticed, both those games have workshops.
 
That article is good stuff. The toolset they are providing is actually far and beyond what even Civ 5 has and that mod scene is so active it will literally continue to burn hot for at least another 3-4 years.

Their respect for Long War is well deserved and the mod's influence is clearly resonant on the existing community of players. There won't be a LW from the same team in XCOM2, but it's hard not to think that people who want to get 2000+ hours out of XCOM2 won't have good options to do so.

I wonder what they mean by "there's no free aim." Does that include hand grenades? Because that would be a weird change.

Referring to regular aimed weapons like rifles. OG X-COM let you shoot wherever the eff you wanted, and you would sometimes do so in order to alter structures or terrain for your advantage. I can see an option for modders to add in things like anti-materiel rifles to the game so that you can target structural weaknesses and points on buildings to generate cover and/or alternate means of insertion/extraction.
 

Sober

Member
That article is good stuff. The toolset they are providing is actually far and beyond what even Civ 5 has and that mod scene is so active it will literally continue to burn hot for at least another 3-4 years.

Their respect for Long War is well deserved and the mod's influence is clearly resonant on the existing community of players. There won't be a LW from the same team in XCOM2, but it's hard not to think that people who want to get 2000+ hours out of XCOM2 won't have good options to do so.



Referring to regular aimed weapons like rifles. OG X-COM let you shoot wherever the eff you wanted, and you would sometimes do so in order to alter structures or terrain for your advantage. I can see an option for modders to add in things like anti-materiel rifles to the game so that you can target structural weaknesses and points on buildings to generate cover and/or alternate means of insertion/extraction.
JL and Amineri are deciding not to work modding XCOM2 I'm guessing? Would rather do their own original project?

Also wow, I was hoping for pie-in-the-sky level of modding for XCOM2 but holy shit, if you can rewrite the entire ruleset and bring back TUs or let you just willy-nilly free aim fire your weapons on the terrain? That is extensive.

By the way, for anyone interested and has the PC version of Enemy Within, come join us in the Long War thread.

Sorry not familiar, what are time units.
It's like Action Points kind of system (Fallout 1/2, Wasteland 2, etc.) where each unit has a certain number of time units and actions consume a certain amount. So if you have like 40, moving a tile might cost 1, aimed shot might cost 8, reloading 4, crouching 1, going into your bags 4, etc. Any points left over go into reaction fire.
 

RM8

Member
I honestly prefer playing on my monitor / desktop that on my TV. I have even moved my consoles to desktop. I do prefer controllers over KB+M, but not for a game like this. I play XCOM EU with KB+M and it's prefect, I won't really miss controller support.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
I wonder how extensive the base level modding will be though.

Like, is it enough to actually basically recreate UFO Defense?
 
Sorry not familiar, what are time units.

A super fussy system of action and movement in the older X-COM games. Every unit had a pool of Time Units and everything they did cost time units. You could not use all your Time Units if you wanted to set up reaction fire on the enemy's turn.

Firaxis didn't use time units in their new game because blue move/yellow move, while having a lot of sacrifices in turn fidelity, presents the player with a very consistent, fast-flowing action ruleset with lots of interesting possibilities.

JL and Amineri are deciding not to work modding XCOM2 I'm guessing? Would rather do their own original project?

Once they get LW out the door they are moving on to their own alien invasion game. LW will still be maintained (who is going to "take over" for JL, no idea) but after the official release of LW out of beta development updates to LW are going to be driven by player mods to Long War and not the LW team directly.
 

red36

Neo Member
I can see looking at footage how that would be fussy in the old games. But I've seen action point based behavior in tactic games work in other games, or atleast letting the player action then movement.
Depends on the number of troops too. With 8+ units complicated point mechanics can slow the pace.
 

Sober

Member
Once they get LW out the door they are moving on to their own alien invasion game. LW will still be maintained (who is going to "take over" for JL, no idea) but after the official release of LW out of beta development updates to LW are going to be driven by player mods to Long War and not the LW team directly.
Unless XCOM2 brings monetized mods back to Steam Workshop! :p

I would be surprised if they didn't think about XCOM2 a bit seeing if Soloman and DeAngelis seemed to concede that you could mod XCOM2 so extensively you might be able to basically remake EU/UFO Defense, and you already have a framework to work under.

Sounds like bad timing for JL/Amineri, IMO, if they're gonna go on and make their own thing that's great and I wish them all the luck but it's a bigger uphill battle with XCOM2 on the way.
 
I've really gotta try the Long War mod sometime. Maybe in the lead-up to XCOM 2's release or something...
I can see looking at footage how that would be fussy in the old games. But I've seen action point based behavior in tactic games work in other games, or atleast letting the player action then movement.
Depends on the number of troops too. With 8+ units complicated point mechanics can slow the pace.

The original XCOM also had many other considerations than just attacking, using items, or moving. Overwatch was its own thing (complete with three different tiers of reaction shot) and it took TU's to crouch or turn. With how big the squads were, it could be easy to make a huge mistake while going through less interesting turns. All in all, it was a very exacting system - Firaxis' two-action system was a good compromise between the old and new.
 

red36

Neo Member
I've really gotta try the Long War mod sometime. Maybe in the lead-up to XCOM 2's release or something...


The original XCOM also had many other considerations than just attacking, using items, or moving. Overwatch was its own thing (complete with three different tiers of reaction shot) and it took TU's to crouch or turn. With how big the squads were, it could be easy to make a huge mistake while going through less interesting turns. All in all, it was a very exacting system - Firaxis' two-action system was a good compromise between the old and new.
Looking at the wish list on the official forums, there have been a few suggestions for more involved overwatch mechanics. Sounds like they could be interesting.
 

Sijil

Member
Sweet, I can imagine all the total conversions that would work, Star Wars, Star Trek, Starship Troopers, Mass Effect, hell even Halo...
 
Interesting thanks.

I would have preferred a compromise, at least, between the old design (that I prefer) with Acion Points and the new design.

Xcom already had action points: just 2 of them, the two "pips". What it killed me what the lack of flexibility in using them. It was too restricted with only some lifted restrictions implemented in specific skills from specific classes.

Ideally for me the game would have three "pips", and the player would have total freedom in how to use. So he could

Shoot, then move, then fire again.
Shoot three times his weapon for the starting position in that turn
Move 3 times
Move 2 times to a cover and then fire.
Shoot one time and let the other two actions for overwatch
etc
 
I would have preferred a compromise, at least, between the old design (that I prefer) with Acion Points and the new design.

Xcom already had action points: just 2 of them, the two "pips". What it killed me what the lack of flexibility in using them. It was too restricted with only some lifted restrictions implemented in specific skills from specific classes.

Ideally for me the game would have three "pips", and the player would have total freedom in how to use. So he could

Shoot, then move, then fire again.
Shoot three times his weapon for the starting position in that turn
Move 3 times
Move 2 times to a cover and then fire.
Shoot one time and let the other two actions for overwatch
etc
The way XCOM is designed makes the two-action system ideal. Tension is kept high, and every action is of key importance. Changing anything would require completely re-imaging the game, reducing one of its best features: tactical clarity.
 

Sober

Member
I would have preferred a compromise, at least, between the old design (that I prefer) with Acion Points and the new design.

Xcom already had action points: just 2 of them, the two "pips". What it killed me what the lack of flexibility in using them. It was too restricted with only some lifted restrictions implemented in specific skills from specific classes.

Ideally for me the game would have three "pips", and the player would have total freedom in how to use. So he could

Shoot, then move, then fire again.
Shoot three times his weapon for the starting position in that turn
Move 3 times
Move 2 times to a cover and then fire.
Shoot one time and let the other two actions for overwatch
etc
Long War sort of fixes it, not that the 2 action thing is bad but nearly every class in Long War has perks that let them take a free action at some point in the game so you can do 3 things in a turn.
 

KKRT00

Member
EU problem was not two/three action system, but the lack of proper information of soldiers visibility after the move.
We just need more indicators.
 

Sciz

Member
Xcom already had action points: just 2 of them, the two "pips". What it killed me what the lack of flexibility in using them. It was too restricted with only some lifted restrictions implemented in specific skills from specific classes.

Ideally for me the game would have three "pips", and the player would have total freedom in how to use.

Having total freedom to spend your time how you want from the get go hamstrings their ability to make units stronger as they level up and diversify classes, though.
 
I would have preferred a compromise, at least, between the old design (that I prefer) with Acion Points and the new design.

Xcom already had action points: just 2 of them, the two "pips". What it killed me what the lack of flexibility in using them. It was too restricted with only some lifted restrictions implemented in specific skills from specific classes.

Ideally for me the game would have three "pips", and the player would have total freedom in how to use. So he could

Shoot, then move, then fire again.
Shoot three times his weapon for the starting position in that turn
Move 3 times
Move 2 times to a cover and then fire.
Shoot one time and let the other two actions for overwatch
etc

You'd have to dramatically rebalance the game around that, though. Half the abilities would become useless, and the baseline effectiveness of units would skyrocket.
 
Stargate and 40K are my most anticipated.

EDIT: BTW, new piece of art w/ today's article:

40K? It seems you know nothing about how GW works. They probably are already preparing a C&D letter to send to your doorstep for even imagining the possibility of infringing their copyrighted intellectual property.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
You'd have to dramatically rebalance the game around that, though. Half the abilities would become useless, and the baseline effectiveness of units would skyrocket.

It's ok, that's the beauty of mods. Things don't have to make complete sense right away, and no one expects a polished, commercial product right from the get go. It also has the advantage of being able to implement an iterative balancing process, as long as the community sticks around.

It's a big reason games like Counter-Strike and DotA are what they are today. So many intricate mechanics that came about simply by iterative design (and, in the case of DotA, engine limitations and happy accidents), seeing how it plays out, etc. Shit you can't just sit down at a table and pen out, because things work differently in practice most of the time.
 

Velurian

Member
I recall a certain developer promising EXTENSIVE modding support for the new xcom series before...

Is it really going to happen this time around? Ill believe it when I see it.
 
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