And I just beat the fight that made Kevincow ragequit. Didn't find it hard at all. Much easier than some of the harder unique monsters you can fight earlier in the game. Died to a giant caterpillar like 4 times before being able to beat it. I did do a lot of sidequests, so I was decent level, but I didn't do all of them available.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Xenoblade |OT| Sorry I Kept You Waiting!
- Thread starter SecretMoblin
- Start date
Lots of Wii games do it, even Nintendo's own recent games do it, including NSMB Wii, SMG2 and Skyward Sword. I imagine it's just so they can design scenes and HUDs with one aspect ratio in mind.
SecretMoblin
Member
No, but many quests call for the loot, so it's good to keep it around.
Oh I was unaware of that. Haven't played anything on wii for a really ling time. Guess i've just gotta get used to it.
PezDispenser
Banned
So 1-3 screens of a few sentences of reading each, combined with screenshots and illustrations to further clarify is a "wall of text" now? That's cool.
I really liked the way they introduced the concepts in xenoblade. No drawn-out 'learn-by-doing' cutscene practice sessions, just quick, cut-and-dry explanations that you can go back to whenever you want. They don't just dump it all in your lap at once, either; they space them out purposely as to not overwhelm you. But break->topple->daze is the exception - to explain this mechanic, they used both the aforementioned text/picture screens as well as at least two separate special events that functioned like the 'learn-by-doing' tutorials that are more common in mainstream games this gen. It's not an issue of the developers crafting a poor tutorial, it's more an issue of a subset of people not being satisfied unless they are being spoonfed or handheld to the nth degree, and actually thinking an attitude like "i dont wana read LOL" gives them license to shit on a developer for not specifically catering their game to the laziest common denominator.
tl;dr - the information is right there in the game, in the form of distilled and easy-to-follow text and pictures, it's really not that difficult to grasp, and if you still can't figure it out, it's nobody's fault but your own.
That's basically my entire strategy. And it completely falls apart when I'm fighting a ton of enemies, or when the enemies deal damage to Reyn faster than I can heal, or both.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I just arrived in the 60+hours spoiler
location, and ah man the music is really good. Reminds of me Phantasy Star Online Mines area!
Mechanois "Factory" field
You're leveling up your arts, right? I've found they recharge fairly quickly once you get a few levels on them. There's rarely a time where I don't have at least one art charged that I can use.
TDLink
Member
I really don't get how you can be having that much trouble. That spider fight, admittedly, is a bit tough and took me a few tries when I first did it as well. That is a boss battle though and it should not be the norm for you to be having so many issues. Multiple enemies at once definitely makes things a bit more difficult though. If you are really having that much trouble with the fight then you definitely can go back and do some quests or just grind a bit to get a level or two more. Levels make huge differences in this game in your stats and never take that long to get. You weren't supposed to grind and shouldn't have to. Basically though if you want things to be easier at this point or any in the future then just go ahead and level past what you are trying to kill by a level or two and it usually becomes pretty easy.
Make sure you have done this also. If you are still using level 1 Arts that could be -part- of it.
you can bait enemies over to you by hitting down on the Talent Art (icon is blue with a curved arrow) so you can fight them one-on-one
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
I'm going to agree with this guy. The tutorial is pretty nicely laid out and not in your face at all. All you have to do is READ. Now, there are some tutorials that I had to read more than once to get a grasp on the vocabulary of the game, but yeah. Really simple tutorials that were only like three screens long and use lots of visuals.
I'm gonna say that if he's using level 1 arts, that is like the entire problem, because of how leveling decreases the cooldowns so much.
That and having decent gems in equipment are really the most important thing at that point.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Sorry, but throwing a bunch of tutorial screens for you to read is not good design. Maybe you like it personally, but it is a textbook example of how not to design a tutorial sequence. Tutorials are SUPOSSED to hold your hand and let you come to grips with a mechanic before introducing another one. Xenoblade introduces many in a short span of time, by simply making a bunch of tutorial screens available. That's only slightly better than making you RTFM. The bottom line is that a better designed tutorial would have "held your hand" a bit better through the introduction of those concepts. For example, the tutorial for Topple/Break tells you how to do it. But what is a Topple? Like WTF does that mean? If you're unfamiliar with RPG's shit like this would be really fucking confusing. Xenoblade is an awesome game, but it's not the game you tell your friend who's never played an RPG before to try. This game assumes you're already at least halfway familiar with its genre, and that is fucking stupid.
And KevinCow, if you're doing all that and still can't win then I don't know what to tell you. The beginning of the game is not hard. Like at all. You do have to be fast with the menu though. That's RPG's for you! This one lets you arrange the skills however you want though... you just need to get faster.
TDLink
Member
Right. I said part because the other part would possibly be if he hadn't upgraded his equipment and gems, as you pointed out.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
This game has had like five threads, three of them OT and this is only discussion I've ever seen about "the tutorials aren't helping me!" and "this game is hard!"
I'm sad that someone isn't enjoying the game because of those "issues".
I'm sad that someone isn't enjoying the game because of those "issues".
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I thought both.. but then I took my time reading the tutorials...
The game is hard but rewarding
Hell.. I got killed by... THAT DAMNED SPIDER.... killed me atleast 8 times....
TDLink
Member
I personally had a harder time with that Spider than most bosses in the game. It is legitimately tough even at level. I would say most of that though is the game wants you to fight like over a dozen enemies at once while it is trying to teach you a new mechanic. You also don't have a full party or a great heal spell. Once you pick up Sharla you never really have those kinds of issues again (imo). Very few bosses later are legitimately difficult in some way beyond just being higher level possibly.
dancrane212
Member
This was they only way I could
get rid of the critters on the bridge for the colony 6 quest
True did anyone even complain about this in the EU OT? I don't remember any of those complaints. A lot said this game was easy, minus a few boss fights. I love this game but it's not that hard tbh.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I have to agree... I killed that (gonna spoiler tag it just in case) immediately before Colony 6
mechon that has juju captive... got killed a few times but not a much as much as that spider
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I consider my deaths as trial and error
I think some had trouble with the first boss, but I'm kinda baffled at why people are having a hard time at reading the tutorials. Hell, I'm almost positive it straight up tells you what you need to do.
Enemies/Bosses aren't that hard unless you go in unprepared (and it can happen; I had to suicide on a boss or two simply because I had a faulty party setup and knew it was futile to go on).
Hell, I know I did one quest towards the end of the game and ended up having to fight a Lv86 Unique with a Lv74 party, which totally caught me off-guard. Ended up killing it after about 10 minutes through an extreme act of attrition and getting Bind-locked.
In the early game though, it can be hard to kill stuff above (or slightly above) your level. I know a few Uniques gave me some trouble early on.
Yeah, one fight that got me was against
Mumkhar
he himself was considered a Mechon at the time. I just assumed he was still human, and found myself doing shit damage.
Yes I do remember a few times I needed to change gems for a few fights. Having a good set-up helps a lot.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Alright I'm going balls deep into Dolphin. I think I have things set up nicely now on my iMac. It took way more time than I would have liked to tinker with it but shit is good now.
One question: how to import save from the Wii version? I tried copying to my SD card but I couldn't find anything that was conspicuously a save file for Xenoblade. I have my Wii home-brewed up now if that helps.
Anyone know?
One question: how to import save from the Wii version? I tried copying to my SD card but I couldn't find anything that was conspicuously a save file for Xenoblade. I have my Wii home-brewed up now if that helps.
Anyone know?
One tip for people getting overwhelmed: Check the enemies routes, position yourself somewhere safe, and pull enemies. To pull single enemies (or small groups of linked enemies), select one, and press up on the dpad (you'll see an arc in the middle of your palette instead of the usual crossed sword), then press A to engage combat.
Hitting over 100% will just give you a decent gem.
Hitting over 200% will give you HEAT and give you a pretty good gem.
Hitting MEGA HEAT after 200% (around ~300%), you get a full-strength Gem for that level and receive another copy, giving you 2 full-strength gems in the process.
Extra stuff that didn't hit 100% can be converted into Cylinders used for Gem Crafting.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
There's a gem crafting guide linked in the OP.
You want to get as close to 100% as possible without going over when you craft. So the end result should be a cylinder at around 90% instead of a gem (99% would be perfect). Do that twice so you have two cylinders that get you near 200% (heat state) since that gives you a maxed out gem of that level. If you're ridiculously lucky, you can get 300% (mega heat) which gives you two maxed out higher level gems, but that's unlikely early on with low affinity.
PezDispenser
Banned
Sorry, but I think the entire point of their design choice was to avoid having a tutorial "sequence". Xenoblade is pretty complex, gameplay-wise (as opposed to something like, say, Portal...) and forcing the player to go through a hand-holding tutorial for every single concept and mechanic in the game would be a giant fucking chore, and would likely take up the bulk of the first 10 hours. That's why they only took this approach with some of the more important concepts. Sure, the hand-holding tutorial works for lots of (mostly simpler) games, but that doesn't mean it MUST be the best possible design choice across all genres.
The text/picture tutorial screens are very to-the-point and nearly always accessible. Sure, you might not understand it fully the first time through, but that's just the nature of learning how a new and complex game works.
To me personally, the fact that those screens impart the information faster than a playable hand-holding tutorial would makes them the unambiguously better design choice.
SecretMoblin
Member
Even if you're playing via one of the homebrew methods, the save file should still be with the others on the Wii. The save file icon for Xenoblade is hard to miss, trust me.
And it's been a while since I've used Dolphin, but it should have an "import save" feature that allows you to use the Wii save with it.
I think the game is way too easy for me, so for fun I sometimes fight some unique enemies that are only like 5+ levels ahead of me so I could stand a chance :lol
Anyway this one time I found the leader of those lizard warriors you fight on Satorl Marsh. Can't remember the name right now because I didn't pay attention to the monster names. But I found him in the temple when I was looking for that Nopon. He had like a whole row of lizard warriors guarding him so I got rid of them and fought the leader head on.
Oh man he had this move where he attacked everybody and inflicted topple and I was like WTF? He killed me when I was toppled and that was the first time I ever died in the game! I was baffled because I did not knew what to do about that move of his, the only strategy I could think of was to abuse topple with Reyn and Dunban and hope we kill him before he does that move. Luckily the strategy worked but it took me like three tries to beat him :lol but yeah that was my favorite moment in the game so far.
It was also the first time I fought with a unique enemy and it was awesome! It gives me that intensity that the regular bosses don't have, I really gotta think on my feet when fighting unique enemies. I applied strategies that I never once thought of doing, it really made me appreciate the battle system in this game. Now I go around finding unique enemies that are around my level, and I skip side quests now so I could make the game a little more challenging because it's way more fun that way. And I was starting to get bored of the game because it was too easy :lol
Anyway this one time I found the leader of those lizard warriors you fight on Satorl Marsh. Can't remember the name right now because I didn't pay attention to the monster names. But I found him in the temple when I was looking for that Nopon. He had like a whole row of lizard warriors guarding him so I got rid of them and fought the leader head on.
Oh man he had this move where he attacked everybody and inflicted topple and I was like WTF? He killed me when I was toppled and that was the first time I ever died in the game! I was baffled because I did not knew what to do about that move of his, the only strategy I could think of was to abuse topple with Reyn and Dunban and hope we kill him before he does that move. Luckily the strategy worked but it took me like three tries to beat him :lol but yeah that was my favorite moment in the game so far.
It was also the first time I fought with a unique enemy and it was awesome! It gives me that intensity that the regular bosses don't have, I really gotta think on my feet when fighting unique enemies. I applied strategies that I never once thought of doing, it really made me appreciate the battle system in this game. Now I go around finding unique enemies that are around my level, and I skip side quests now so I could make the game a little more challenging because it's way more fun that way. And I was starting to get bored of the game because it was too easy :lol
Fucking exactly.
I now understand how to do a topple thanks to this thread, but I still don't understand exactly what it is. It's something I use to beat the robots, but is that all it's good for? Is it a tactic I should use elsewhere? Does it do something else besides let me damage robots?
The game pops up all this information, and it's not that I don't read it, it's that I don't know what the hell any of it is talking about. I don't understand it. It's talking about systems I haven't experienced yet, and not really giving me any idea how or when to use them.
This game is Street Fighter, and it's trying to explain how to DHCP into my Ultra before I've even figured out how to throw a basic hadouken.
I guess that's the problem, then. The extent of my RPG experience is a few Mario RPGs and Pokemon Red, and I've never even touched an MMO.
Maybe I'll just see if there's a Gecko code for infinite health and cheat my way through.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Oh, I can see the icon on the Wii just fine. I just can't find it on the SD card when I plug it in to my computer.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
You avoided unique enemies all the way up to that point? I'm sure you killed at least a few previously, there are several in Colony 9 and Tephra Cave you can take out pretty easily during the course of the game.
That one was probably one of the toughest unique enemies in the game for it's level though. I couldn't beat it when I was at level parody at the time. I think I probably could now though. Really want to replay this, but I'm kind of busy.
You should be able to use Dolphin's Wii Save Import. I'll have to check out it works, but you might just be able to point it to the private folder on the SD card and it will find it.
I'm pretty sure it explains what toppling is in one of the tutorials, but basically it knocks the enemy down temporarily so they can't fight back. And in the case of Mechon, it also lets you damage them with normal weapons.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
My only RPG's are: Final fantasy 9 (bought on psn), Final Fantasy mystic quest, phantasy star universe, and Pokemon.
Got used to xenoblade style of game
EDIT: forgot about runescape
Got used to xenoblade style of game
EDIT: forgot about runescape
SecretMoblin
Member
Yes, the tactic of breaking and then toppling (and then dazing) the enemy is a common, useful tactic, for many reasons. The in-game tutorial explains that a toppled enemy is incapacitated in a number of waysthe most important being that it's not able to attack you. It may take a while to get down, but it's extremely useful.
And keep at it! The game can be daunting, but it's a long, worthwhile game, and once you're past the initial learning curve it's a great experience.
Yeah I probably did but I didn't notice :lol
But yeah I was surprised at how hard the lizard guy was, I wanted to kill him because of the way he sat on the chair all like "yeah I'm the king baby". Fucker, think he was so bad ass but I toppled his ass :lol
that's a very dangerous conclusion to have, because it leads people to depend on sharla too much. the reason why everything becomes easier at that point is, as you said, you got a full party now, but it's not due to your new healer. It's really important to emphasize that, as most stick with shulk/reyn/sharla simply because they are afraid to change any of them out, thus hindering themselfs in the long run.
The damage dealer - tank - healer triangle may be fine for many, but it is far from the best team and experience possible imho.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Ok I have the save imported... but now I can't get Dolphin to render in fullscreen on my TV. It was doing that earlier. Now it simply opens in windowed mode even though I have "display in fullscreen" selected... ugh.
This isn't strictly true. If you're being hammered while the enemy's toppled it means it does spike damage. I'd recommend reading the tutorial for that.
The drops are used for side quest, as gifts you can give to teammates to raise affinity, to complete the collect-o-pedia, etc. Plenty of uses.
PezDispenser
Banned
top·ple (tpl)
v. top·pled, top·pling, top·ples
v.tr.
To push or throw over; overturn or overthrow.
Ignoring the fact that, as someone else pointed out, the game describes exactly what a topple is in one of the tutorials, you should still be able to have some concept of what a topple would be in terms of toppling your enemy in a battle, assuming you know what the word means. On the other hand, if you seriously had no idea what the word "topple" meant in the first place, then yikes, I guess I can see how reading would pose a serious problem for you. Stay in school, guys.
v. top·pled, top·pling, top·ples
v.tr.
To push or throw over; overturn or overthrow.
Ignoring the fact that, as someone else pointed out, the game describes exactly what a topple is in one of the tutorials, you should still be able to have some concept of what a topple would be in terms of toppling your enemy in a battle, assuming you know what the word means. On the other hand, if you seriously had no idea what the word "topple" meant in the first place, then yikes, I guess I can see how reading would pose a serious problem for you. Stay in school, guys.
Elfforkusu
Member
I'd disagree with the "you need lots of RPG experience". I generally avoid RPGs because when I don't it ends up being a disappointment -- with a few notable exceptions (Chrono Trigger, Radiant Historia). Haven't played an MMO much since Ragnarok Online a decade ago. Sunk over a hundred hours into this game, and it was not some sort of foreign ordeal.
You just need to learn the combat system. It's not easy, but it's not extremely difficult either. Dark Souls this is not.
You just need to learn the combat system. It's not easy, but it's not extremely difficult either. Dark Souls this is not.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I haven't played dark/demon souls so I can't comment.... but I agree with everything else
BlazingDarkness
Member
Xenoblade is a pretty easy JRPG to get into, it has depth for people who want it but there's nothing that would really confuse anyone IMO
I'm about 10 hours in, and I'm wandering around the bottom of the tunnels under colony 6... Is this what I should expect the rest of the way through? I'm already hitting a wall to play. Find it kind of boring. It's almost like when I played FF13. I run through my arts, enemy dead, move onto the next one. I don't know. Maybe I'm playing it wrong.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Heh, this junior seems to be pretty high up on the Xenoblade defense force.
The bottom line is this: the "tutorial" is basically an in-game instruction manual. That's bad design. Did you listen to the Irrational Behavior podcast in which Ken Levine and Todd Howard discuss their goals with modern tutorial systems? They both hated how in most old games (especially RPG's) you fired the game up only to be slapped with a stat screen asking you to pick your attributes. Attributes that mean absolutely nothing to you, unless you read the instruction manual. Games have come a long way since then and there's a reason for that: you don't want people to feel like KevinCow and give up on your game fore even getting to the meat of it. You don't want the barrier of entry to be high. Now obviously Xenoblade's shit is a hell of a lot better than the RPG's of old, but it's still extremely basic. The devs just throw a bunch of information on the screen and tell you to go at it. It's a cop-out. It's lazy design. That's just the way it is. I'm not sure why you are so offended.
SecretMoblin
Member
If you want to spice up the game, try playing with a different character.
It changes the combat up a lot.
Elfforkusu
Member
The tutorials are overwhelming at the start (though I think I prefer that over the alternative, e.g. the Zelda-style tedious beginning), and there's a ton of information to digest. I don't know if it's easy by JRPG standards or not, but I'd argue "easy" is not part of a valid description of the game.