"You're a WHAT!?" Nier Gestalt|Replicant |OT|

This game is awesome once you suffer through the first few hours. The first 3 hours is like running some sort test comprised of gaming annoyances, but there's plenty of good to be had if you pass. This might also be the sort of thing that requires a long history of playin' games in order to appreciate. I don't want to sound like an apologist for the game's many, many flaws, but they kinda add to the charm.

Sometimes I tend to like the C- games more than I like the A+ ones. This is an example of that.

. . .but for the next one, they need to make sure they compile their code for the PS3 or 360. I have no idea how they ended up mistakingly tossed the PS2 version onto a PS3 disc.
 
To be honest I never felt the quality of the graphics got in the way of my enjoyment, I mean they get the job done.

Yes the animation is janky as hell on the main character, but at least you don't feel like your ability to run and fight is impeded by it. That to me is a far less egregious fault than say cock-blocking the controller input while the next beautifully crafted animation finishes!

I'd also argue that graphically the game is far from a total washout. Art direction is actually pretty good on the whole, and occasionally inspired. The performance capture and direction in the many cut-scenes is excellent, and you can't really fault the game for effort in terms of trying to do lots of different visual styles.

But above and beyond all that, if Nier was in fact a "lost" PS2 game finally surfacing in 2010 would that change people's opinions? How much of a role does expectation play, especially coming hot on the heels of something as epically pretty as FFXIII?
 
I honestly don't see the problem with either the first 3 hours or the graphics. Sure, it's no FF13 graphically, but it's just an average-looking 720p Unreal Engine 3 title, a very far cry from the "PS2" comparisons that get tossed around. And most of the art is actually pretty good.

Regarding the start, it's slower than many recent games that start you out right into the action, but I think I actually prefer that in a RPG.
 
finally cracked this open over the weekend and poured about 20 hours into it doing mostly sidequests and farming to infinity for the man of means achievement. i've only just reached
the part where you go into the basement of the manor and it goes all isometric on you. which is fucking fantastic!

i love all the ways they work in different camera angles to evoke past gaming mechanics or just simply as an artistic direction.
the part in the forest of myth where the game suddenly becomes a text adventure was quite the shift in gameplay.

the music is A-M-A-Z-I-N-G and the ways in which they drop or add various parts in and out of the themes or re-use melodies is an ingenious way to get more mileage out of what are admittedly pretty repetitive tunes. i love that cavia decided to use a similar color palette to games like ico and shadow of the colossus. the earthy reds and browns with the bright grassy greens or deep blues of the sky/ocean is so "storybook epic" that it makes my inner 10 year-old self want to leap around my yard with a wooden stick.

great, great game.
 
Finally got platinum over the weekend. Honestly most of the complaints (boring combat, bland visuals, etc) didn't bother me at all on the first two playthroughs. Everything else was so awesome that I was able to overlook it's shortcomings. The story and the way everything plays out starting with Ending B was phenomenal, and one of my favorite experiences this gen.

My ending C/D playthrough (material farming was a total bitch) and speedrun for the Lightspeed Fighter were tedious and not much fun at all. I'm willing to forgive it there though, because there's not more than a handful of games that wouldn't get tedious after 2+ playthroughs.

Really a shame that people are still probably overlooking this due to the negative press and comments it received initially, but it's good to see new people picking this up and giving it a chance.
 
lljride said:
Finally got platinum over the weekend. Honestly most of the complaints (boring combat, bland visuals, etc) didn't bother me at all on the first two playthroughs. Everything else was so awesome that I was able to overlook it's shortcomings. The story and the way everything plays out starting with Ending B was phenomenal, and one of my favorite experiences this gen.

My ending C/D playthrough (material farming was a total bitch) and speedrun for the Lightspeed Fighter were tedious and not much fun at all. I'm willing to forgive it there though, because there's not more than a handful of games that wouldn't get tedious after 2+ playthroughs.

Really a shame that people are still probably overlooking this due to the negative press and comments it received initially, but it's good to see new people picking this up and giving it a chance.
Click to expand...
i'm still on my first playthrough (i'm going to make a separate speed run) and trying to get a lot of stuff out of the way, including not selling ANY materials for the upgrade achieve/trophy. what were the hardest items to farm? i'm not looking forward to grinding that part, but this game is one of those that i really want to have 1000/1000 for.
 
Rabbitwork said:
i'm still on my first playthrough (i'm going to make a separate speed run) and trying to get a lot of stuff out of the way, including not selling ANY materials for the upgrade achieve/trophy. what were the hardest items to farm? i'm not looking forward to grinding that part, but this game is one of those that i really want to have 1000/1000 for.
Click to expand...

The hardest to get are the ones from the flying shades in the desert and from the shaman shades on the roof of the Lost Shrine (Forlorn Necklaces and Subdued Bracelets). If you have the DLC, some of the other materials like Pyrite and Eagle Eggs are way easier to obtain.
 
Augemitbutter said:
the VA isn't that good
Click to expand...

Certainly you jest ! :D

But seriously though, Emil is a bit annoying at times, but the rest of the cast is pretty solid. Weiss is especially excellent.
 
Sacha said:
Certainly you jest ! :D

But seriously though, Emil is a bit annoying at times, but the rest of the cast is pretty solid. Weiss is especially excellent.
Click to expand...

I really didn't like Nier's voice (sounded like an ex-football jock), but I agree that Weiss was great. I also thought Kaine, Emil and the Twins were fine.
 
lljride said:
Finally got platinum over the weekend.
My ending C/D playthrough (material farming was a total bitch) and speedrun for the Lightspeed Fighter were tedious and not much fun at all.
Click to expand...

I'd definitely agree with the above.
I also finally got platinum on Nier this weekend, and ... it pretty much sucked the fun out of the game.
I sunk about 80 hours total into the game to get it.
Farming the beach for 15 black pearls was the very definition of boring.
The Lightspeed Fighter trophy was super tedious, but at least it only took 6 hours to get (even though they give you 15 to do it in).
 
luxarific said:
I really didn't like Nier's voice (sounded like an ex-football jock), but I agree that Weiss was great. I also thought Kaine, Emil and the Twins were fine.
Click to expand...
nier sounds exactly like he should, imho. he constantly makes reference to the fact that he's just the muscle whereas weiss is the brains.

emil is appropriate, if not irritating. if he were one of several androgynous male characters with similar voices, it'd be bad.

also the fact that weiss is the same voice actor as war from darksiders entertains me to no end.
 
Rabbitwork said:
nier sounds exactly like he should, imho. he constantly makes reference to the fact that he's just the muscle whereas weiss is the brains.
Click to expand...

Except
given what we know of Nier from the various endings, he's substantially more than just the muscle.
I don't actually have a problem with him sounding like a jock, I just don't think the VA did a good job. He just sounds like he's reading his lines off a page and not playing a character.
 
The VA for this game is a bit inconsistent in my opinion. The main characters are great (Nier, Weiss, Kaine) to good (Emil), while everyone else is mediocre.

Rabbitwork said:
i love all the ways they work in different camera angles to evoke past gaming mechanics or just simply as an artistic direction.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Even if it's "just" a shift in the camera angle it's interesting to see how much it can change the gameplay and feel of the game.
 
i've spend about 50 minutes fishing at the wrong beach :(

i guess it was too tempting to just walk a few steps and start trying your luck. at least i know how to fish now, ugh.
 
Augemitbutter said:
i've spend about 50 minutes fishing at the wrong beach :(

i guess it was too tempting to just walk a few steps and start trying your luck. at least i know how to fish now, ugh.
Click to expand...

Haha, I made the same mistake. In fact, I wonder if anyone didn't try to fish at this wrong spot at first. :lol
 
luxarific said:
I really didn't like Nier's voice (sounded like an ex-football jock), but I agree that Weiss was great. I also thought Kaine, Emil and the Twins were fine.
Click to expand...

But, that's kind of the point. Nier is pretty much that: hired muscle whose time has passed. He even says that he can't really do much besides beat people up. There's something incredibly endearing about a character like that, as even he feels powerless.
 
Nier Backstory Compendium & Assorted Trivia

Since the publication of Grimoire Nier (Ultimania essentially) in Japan information about the canonical backstory of the game has finally become available, also Producer/Director Yoko Taro and other Cavia staff members have been giving detailed (and oddly humorous) interviews to help fill in the blanks.

I can't read Japanese sadly, but thanks to the efforts of several posters at places like the Gamespot/Gamefaqs forums English translations are finally starting to appear. Obviously I can't vouch for the accuracy of these, but to be honest they seem convincing enough to me.

I'm not going to link to the posts -they are easy enough to find, but quite scattered- instead I'm going to try and do a concise summary of the major points.

Drakengard to Nier

* The game's origins lie in Drakengard's "E" ending, where following the battle with the goddess Caim and Angelus are shot down by a jet fighter over Shinjuku.

* This event (as I mostly successfully guessed in my theorycraft post) releases a disease called White Chlorination Syndrome (WCS) in the area.

* Persons afflicted by the disease either sicken and die, or become psychotic killers. As the problem spreads the whole of Shinjuku is walled off to prevent further contagion.

* The source of the disease appears to be the remains of the goddess not Caim and his Dragon - who's remains are shipped elsewhere for experimentation. This as it turns out appears to be ultimately as responsible for the fate of humanity as the WCS...

* There appears to be two (fictional) reasons as to why certain people die and others berserk - either a genetic disposition in the infected *or* the will of the goddess forcing a choice of death by being turned into salt, or serving her purpose of reducing the world to nothing.

* Those who choose to serve are known as Legion, and united and organized by special super-powered and intelligent WCS victims known as "red eyes" soon smash the wall containing Shinjuku from within, and threaten the whole of Japan.

* Research on Angelus remains results in the discovery of so-called "demonic element", a material that allows humans to gain paranormal (magical) abilities.

* Shinjuku gets nuked to eradicate WCS, but although "ground zero" is sterilized the disease starts to appear and China and elsewhere - the contagion is soon out of control.

* Essentially a war breaks out between the Legion and the rest of humanity, with the secretive forces who took Angelus remains creating a defensive vanguard called the crusaders.

* These are humans imbued with magical powers, the direct antecedents of the Demonic weapon series that culminates in the creation of number 7 (Emil).

* A group called the Hamelin corporation produces a "demonic element" sourced drug called Luciferase that slows WCS progress, but no cure can be found. More radical approaches are looked into and the methods of research become increasingly inhuman...

* The final solution is project Gestalt, a method that separates and encodes human souls from bodies, with the stored souls to be replaced in synthetic (cloned?) bodies called Replicants once the WCS plague and the Legion menace has died out.

* One of the first steps in this process is the creation of the grimoires, these magical tomes are created by human experimentation. Weiss, Noir and Rubrum were all once humans trapped against their will by the Hamelin corporation. (The ritualistic origin of the grimoires is detailed in one of the stories in Grimoire Nier)

* I'm not entirely clear on this but it seems that the Black Grimoires were mass produced and given out to unsuspecting citizens in large scale human experiments.

* The body/soul separation/reunification process fails in almost every case as the disembodied Gestalt loses its sense of self and starts to attack humans.

* This is the scenario we see in the prologue... Nier and Yonah have been given (a copy of?) Grimoire Noir and are besieged by berserked Gestalts (shades). Nier submits to the book to save his daughter/sister and by some chance becomes the first "perfect" gestalt in that his consciousness remains intact post-transformation. Yonah is not so lucky however...

To be Continued...

All credit due to the following posters on Gamefaqs: Gisaelle, Dabubba, and Solo Blade for the bulk of the above.
 
Nier Backstory Compendium & Assorted Trivia Continued

In which we discover the nature of the Black Scrawl, the rise of the Replicants and Cavia fucking with us mercilessly !

What's Goin' On?

* So, Original Nier becomes a perfect Gestalt but Yonah does not. The originals die, but the "copies" live on.

* In order to coerce the Gestalt Nier (Shadowlord) into helping Hamelin refine the process of soul transfer, they store Yonah's body in suspended animation until such time has passed that WCS is finally over.

* Work progresses using Gestalt Nier's DNA to enhance the process of saving the surviving humans by creating compatible replicants, but ultimately this sows the seeds of destruction.

* Colonies of Replicants are created with basic synthetic personalities to prepare for the day when the human race (soon to be extinct) is ready for rebirth.

* Gestalts are immortal (or at least extremely long lived) but Replicants are sterile and mortal. For this reason Devola and Popola are androids used to preside over a cycle of death and rebirth until the time is right.

* Over time however the Replicants develop real souls and personalities, leading to the middle-ages like existence we see in the game. The inference I guess is original Nier's DNA is to blame.

* It seems like some kind of psychic link exists between all gestalts created with original Nier's DNA and his gestalt (The Shadowlord). His rage over his inability to save Yonah (this is building over thousands of years remember) is causing Gestalts (shades) to "relapse" - lose self and attack replicants, and for the corresponding replicants to sicken with the terminal disease known as the Black Scrawl.

* Popola and Devola at least suspect this is the case, but are unable to act on it as they are simple androids following their millennia old programming. This is the Law Of Robotics writ large once more ; ;

* In response to this building crisis they activate Nier's replicant and set him on a path to reunite the grimoires and bring about the reunification as soon as possible.

* However when replicant Nier releases Weiss, he damages the book causing him to lose his memory and purpose. It seems like the personality we know as Weiss in the game is more like the original (unwilling) human used in its creation, than the tool of destiny they intend.

* Seeing this last hope to save Yonah fail, the Shadowlord snaps and takes replicant Yonah anyway - forcefully reimplanting her soul on top of the existing one at his castle/lab.

* In the years following her abduction Replicant Nier becomes unexpectedly powerful and the spread of "relapse" and black scrawl cases spirals out of control... thus the stage is set for the destruction of all.

* Yes folks, this is Cavia writing and WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE TRAGICALLY!

* When Replicant Nier kills the Shadowlord, Popola and Devola the mechanisms that have been keeping the human race alive through cyclic rebirth -both replicant and gestalt- is basically destroyed. The flawed gestalts are doomed to lose their selves and attack the remaining replicants, and as the replicants cannot reproduce when this generation ends, so does humanity.

* So yeah, there is no happy ending.

Again, all credit due to the following posters on Gamefaqs: Gisaelle, Dabubba, and Solo Blade for the bulk of the above.
 
So I played this for a few hours and found it to be incredibly dull. At what point was Gaf impressed? For reference I just finished the mission where I got the book and my daughter wasn't in bed.

Have moved on for now but hoping you can convince me to go back.
 
Nier Backstory Compendium & Assorted Trivia Continued

In which Yoko Taro messes with our fragile little minds.
More than anything else this is the stuff I wish I could read Japanese fluently for, because from translation there's always a big element of doubt as to the tone in which things are said, and therefore how exactly we should take them.

I'm really at a loss to figure out how whether Yoko (Yokoo in other translations) is a prankster of Andy Kaufman-esque proportions, or is just batshit insane (in a creative sense).

You'll see what I mean... trust me.

Lost worlds and secrets

* Nier the game is all about love. Yoko style.

* Young Nier had to "sell his body to survive", and was sexually abused as a youth. This incredibly is the subject of one of the short stories in Grimoire Nier, and culminates in Nier "inadvertently" killing his abuser during a raid on a cave-full of shades.

* Emil is gay, and has a crush on Nier. I suspect this is much clearer in the Japanese text as it is addressed during the scenes surrounding Fyra's wedding. The English translation is much more vague. Yoko admits disappointment that more people haven't picked up on this.

* Kaine also wants to jump Nier's bones. (or vice-versa, who knows!) The realisation comes after she beats him up following the King of facade's sacrifice near the end of the game.

* The principle characters (in replicant anyway) are all really young. For example Kaine is 17, and Fyra is 10 when she gets married... and murdered!

Oh Yoko...

* The children's storybook references were part of an abandoned concept where the mythos of the game was rooted in a battle between storybook heroes and villains rising out of the page and doing battle for supremacy. But of course being fictional creations they are fixed into patterns, the baddies can only ever be bad, and are doomed to eternal punishment for their crimes.

* This cyclic motif was originally going to be part of Nier, with what the game is now being the second (echo) part only. I believe the first cycle is detailed in the timeline in Grimoire Nier, but its not been fully translated yet so there's only a few vague references to its events.

* This is also why most of the shade characters are named (in the Japanese) text after kids storybook figures and personalities.

* Yoko was very keen on the "wipe all saves" concept, however as he expected it to rejected he concocted a special extra ending triggered after the game had been played through 7 times! Plays 1-3 were as ending A, B, and C as we know them, after that the player had to create a new -differently named- character and repeat the 3-play process in order to unlock a special final passage where Kaine heads to the forest of myth for a final, trippy as fuck showdown!

* The events of this ending are described in the short story "The Lost World" in Grimoire Nier. It deals with Kaine trying to recover her memory of the erased Nier, a lot of matrixy machine world/dream world stuff and giant bio-mechanical lunar tear. It sounds FUCKING AWESOME.

* Originally the game wiped saves with no ability to back them up. It was only accepted after the back-up option and multiple warnings were added!

There's an awful lot more... the metafiction of Nier is incredibly detailed and interesting making it very disappointing that is unlikely to be read/understood beyond Japan.

Anyway, enough for now.

As before all credit due to the following posters on Gamefaqs: Gisaelle, Dabubba, and Solo Blade for the translations. And I hope noone minds me spreading the info at Gaf.

For the record, nothing is copy/pasted, so obviously my (mis)interpretations may colour some stuff a bit differently, but I've tried to be as accurate to my sources as possible.
 
PARANO1A said:
So I played this for a few hours and found it to be incredibly dull.
Click to expand...

Pretty much the same for me as what Durante wrote.

Initially I thought, hmmm this isn't very good... but it has... something. There's a certain old-school flavour about Nier that kept me hooked until the plot got going, after which I was totally sold.

I absolutely unreservedly love this game for its story, music, and characters. Those things are specifically why I feel so strongly about it.

I found its gameplay to be simply enjoyable. What elevates it is the versatility and the way the camera positions frame the action in various retro-style ways.

Its very different appreciation than say Demon's Souls which I admire beyond anything else I've played this generation because of its gameplay, mechanics and atmosphere.

I love Nier the same way I loved Final Fantasy 7 back in the day, its the overall journey it takes you on that's special to me, the gameplay not so much, but it does its job.
 
FUCK

What'd I say? What'd I say?!

PepsimanVsJoe: Oh Cavia your hatred of gamers is the one of the last great joys I have.

PepsimanVsJoe: The only standard for Cavia is that there is no standard. They will find a way to take things you like and attempt to make you hate them. Eventually the things you hate may turn into things you like, that's when Cavia will find a way to make you hate them again.

*All that stuff about what happens after the ending of Nier*

So not only is Yonah doomed to a shitty death but Nier traded his existence so that Kaine will suffer the same fate.

Somewhere out there Manah is laughing

They put one over on me big time
 
Clear said:
* Yoko was very keen on the "wipe all saves" concept, however as he expected it to rejected he concocted a special extra ending triggered after the game had been played through 7 times! Plays 1-3 were as ending A, B, and C as we know them, after that the player had to create a new -differently named- character and repeat the 3-play process in order to unlock a special final passage where Kaine heads to the forest of myth for a final, trippy as fuck showdown!

* The events of this ending are described in the short story "The Lost World" in Grimoire Nier. It deals with Kaine trying to recover her memory of the erased Nier, a lot of matrixy machine world/dream world stuff and giant bio-mechanical lunar tear. It sounds FUCKING AWESOME.

* Originally the game wiped saves with no ability to back them up. It was only accepted after the back-up option and multiple warnings were added!
[/I]
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Thanks for the translation. Lots of food for thought there. I assume the
seventh ending is no longer in the game? And I'm confused about the back-up option - to my knowledge the only way of doing this isn't via the game itself, you have to go up to the dashboard (at least that's how I did it). Is he saying that Replicant offers the option to back up saves when the player is about to choose ending D? Also the bit about Emil having the hots for Nier only really works if it's teenage Nier - does this mean that Cavia always wanted to have young Nier as the default and only chose old Nier to improve the game's chances in the West?
 
I haven't picked this game up yet, but I did mention that the Drakengard references have my interest piqued. It occurs to me that there are probably people enjoying Nier who never got into Drakengard and may be curious as to why I or others might have such a positive association with what is by most regards a pretty terrible game.

I thought linking to the Let's Play Archive playthrough of the game might be a nice compromise between forcing others to play it and going on a rambling post about why a game that features...Well, why spoil it?

30jlmo7.jpg
“So very sweet indeed... Small... Young... And tender. But, there’s still plenty of meat on that bone. Now you take one home, throw it in a pot, add some broth, a potato. Baby, you’ve got a stew going.”
 
Sacha said:
Haha, I made the same mistake. In fact, I wonder if anyone didn't try to fish at this wrong spot at first. :lol
Click to expand...
Not me! I followed the red X on my map like I always do.
I did suck so badly at it that the game just gave me my fish in the end ^^;;
 
luxarific said:
Thanks for the translation. Lots of food for thought there. I assume the
seventh ending is no longer in the game? And I'm confused about the back-up option - to my knowledge the only way of doing this isn't via the game itself, you have to go up to the dashboard (at least that's how I did it). Is he saying that Replicant offers the option to back up saves when the player is about to choose ending D? Also the bit about Emil having the hots for Nier only really works if it's teenage Nier - does this mean that Cavia always wanted to have young Nier as the default and only chose old Nier to improve the game's chances in the West?
Click to expand...

Developers always have the option of being able to add copy protection to save files in order to piss gamers off curb cheating, so it sounds like the original plan was
for the game to not give you the option of being able to back up your save to a USB device or a memory card. I'm sure that both MS and Sony frowned upon the idea, so we got the compromise with being able to move save files around as well as the multiple warnings before the event takes place.

I don't think that having Nier be the younger incarnation necessarily makes more sense for Emil to fall in love with him, but I guess it makes it less creepy. It's clear he has very strong feelings for both Nier and Kaine since they're the only real human interaction that he's had in over 1300 years, so it's not really much of a stretch to think he'd develop an infatuation for the two of them.

All of this backstory stuff reminds me of Hand in Killer7, which is essentially the design doc of the original version of the game they had before Mikami lended a hand in paring down the complexity, as well as suggesting that Suda expand the cast to being seven personalities of the same character. If you thought that the game was already insane, you have no idea how crazy it could have been. :lol :lol :lol
 
Everything is written as if Nier Replicant is the de-facto "final" version of the game. I think this is mainly because the younger protagonist is what Yoko wanted, but also the vast majority of Japanese readers would have played Replicant not Gestalt.

I'm pretty sure none of the side-stories in the book feature the older Nier.

He's claimed in some interviews that Gestalt and Replicant are within the same timeline, but on separate 100 year cycles but I can only think that's been retconned in. I mean if you look at the ages of pretty much every other character in the game, old man Nier is clearly the odd one out.

To be honest I suspect its just confusing the fact that there are two versions of the same story, so the dates of events have been modified between versions in order to fit better.

The timeline in the book is extremely long though, and I'm not sure its been 100% translated yet, so who knows !
 
finished all the fishing quests + got the extra fish.

it seems you have to farm alot for some of the optional quests, don't know if i'm up for that.
 
Servizio said:
30jlmo7.jpg
“So very sweet indeed... Small... Young... And tender. But, there’s still plenty of meat on that bone. Now you take one home, throw it in a pot, add some broth, a potato. Baby, you’ve got a stew going.”
Click to expand...

:lol

Seriously, what is it with that game and kids?
 
So, what are your three favorite songs on the soundtrack? I love all of them, but I really like "Temple of Drifting Sands", "Gods Bound by Rules", and "Shadowlord".
 
&#8704 said:
So, what are your three favorite songs on the soundtrack? I love all of them, but I really like "Temple of Drifting Sands", "Gods Bound by Rules", and "Shadowlord".
Click to expand...

Tough choice, it's probably:

Kaine - Escape
Song of the Ancients - Fate
Hills of Radiant Wind

Though I really don't want to leave out Shadowlord's Castle - Roar and Gods Bound by Rules.
 
&#8704 said:
So, what are your three favorite songs on the soundtrack? I love all of them, but I really like "Temple of Drifting Sands", "Gods Bound by Rules", and "Shadowlord".
Click to expand...

Song of the Ancients / Fate
Gods Bound by Rules
And for the third one, I really can't choose, this OST is just so amazing. But the Emil and Song of the Ancient remixes from the DLC are also worth mentioning !
 
That's a really difficult question, I'd probably go

Grandma
Kaine - Escape
Shadowlord - though the third one is really difficult to choose

Such an amazing OST!
 
My favourites:

This Dream
Temple Of Drifting Sand
The Ultimate Weapon

After my top 2, its so hard to pick a third... there are so many tracks I like a lot.

And if you add in the remixes, both Blu Bird and Emil are up there also. Great stuff.
 
I'm starting my Ending C run...

This weapons this in going to kind of suck... everything in this game is so damn expensive.
 
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