ZephyrFate
Banned
So, adding backstory is just a bad idea, then? If none of the extra B ending scenes affected you, I have no words. :/StuBurns said:
"You're a WHAT!?" Nier Gestalt|Replicant |OT|
- Thread starter Adam Blade
- Start date
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
StuBurns said:
I can really predict a wolfs motivation in attacking a city!
I think there is a lot to be said for subtlety, and I feel the first play thru holds far more of it. I pretty much knew what was happening first time before the end anyway, if anything, I'd rather have had less information first time, I think the didactic 'explanation' near the end is heavy handed.ZephyrFate said:
I don't know why I should feel bad about that, it's moronic.InfiniteNine said:
You have a cutscene with him saying "I believe we'll find a way to live in peace together", then the next minute I'm crossing the area on the way to the city and they're trying to rip me a part. "What did we do to deserve this?" he asks, maybe it's trying to brutal savage every living thing that crosses your path.
Neuromancer
Member
Well I liked all that extra stuff, to each their own I guess.
Prophet Steve
Member
Watch out, maybe you should spoiler this, not sure.InfiniteNine said:
ENDING B Spoilers
I have also started with Nier now and finished ending B and I thought the motivations behind the enemies also weren't obvious. I did not know that Shades went mad and in every case, the enemy always attacks you in the wild even when you are not doing anything, so it would not make a whole lot of sense. EDIT: Oh, beaten on that part.
I still liked most of the extra scenes though.
I still liked most of the extra scenes though.
Stuburns said:
I agree that, to some degree, the revelations of the second half can be seen coming if you're aware, and the bonus scenes sometimes err on the side of melodrama. Even so, they provide significant insight into the story.
Even if I was somewhat aware that many of the Shades I killed were sentient and meant no harm, seeing events from their perspective made the tragedy of our colliding purposes clearer. Without those events, there's no way to understand what I'm disrupting.
I found it effective even if it was predictable, but I can imagine that some of the hype here made you expect something more significant than what you got.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Uh, they didnt' have to do untilStuBurns said:
the humans destroyed their forest. An eye for an eye. The point of it all is to give emphasize to the fact that you are killing things with a soul, and these souls have lives and purpose before you come to kill them for your own single-minded ideals. It's an allegory to war and how it often leaves both sides losing sense of the fact that each other is human.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
StuBurns said:
The villagers attacked a den with young wolves they weren't crossing. It was an attack on the wolves territory that wasn't provoked by them. The attack on the city was revenge for taking the lives of their clan.
Did you read my post at all? That's after you get to the city. I'm taking about between the first cutscene and getting there.InfiniteNine said:
They don't have to at all.ZephyrFate said:
They claim they want to live in peace, and yet the first sight of a human they go for your throat. It's contradictory to the message of the cutscene.
Prophet Steve
Member
InfiniteNine said:
I think he means when you walk through the desert, those wolves attack you.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I'm sorry I didn't get attacked by any wolves when crossing during that specific period in any of my playthroughs.StuBurns said:
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I thought the shades there where more annoying to take out actually. I usually have no problems killing the wolves anyways.StuBurns said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
What? They've been made bitter by the fact thatStuBurns said:
humans... have bespoilt... their wilderness. OF COURSE they're craving human blood, for the same reason if they were to mindlessly attack the city, we as humans would go and hunt them to extinction.
You are NOT getting the point.
WyndhamPrice
Member
I just started getting into this game after buying it last month. Very interesting so far!
I'm only at the part where
so things are only now starting to roll story wise, but I'm enjoying it.
Gameplay reminds me of Zelda with more RPG-ish (stats, etc.) stuff on top.
Really loving the voice acting, Weiss in particular is great. I'm looking forward to seeing how this will play out. Any tips for a first run through?
I'm only at the part where
you rescue Yonah from the Lost Shrine and meet Weiss
Gameplay reminds me of Zelda with more RPG-ish (stats, etc.) stuff on top.
Really loving the voice acting, Weiss in particular is great. I'm looking forward to seeing how this will play out. Any tips for a first run through?
I am getting the point, your reading comprehension is slim to none however.ZephyrFate said:
I'm not saying they shouldn't attack humans, I'm saying they claim they want to be left alone in peace, and yet are antagonistic towards humans which is causing their death. And more importantly, I don't see why I as the player is meant to feel bad for killing them when I didn't attack them and I didn't destroy their environment
Neuromancer
Member
Nope. Just enjoy the game. My only real advice is don't feel like you have to do every side mission. If it sounds annoying (get 10 of this, 10 of that and 10 of those) it probably will be, and they're completely optional. (Except maybe for achievement purposes.)WyndhamPrice said:
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
A couple of points about motivations:
Not all of the shades are berserked, they act aggressively in most cases because they consider the Replicants to be inhuman monsters. Post time-skip most of them are wearing armour which is clearly an intelligent choice.
The tragedy above all comes from both sides believing they are the "true" humans, and the other is therefore monstrous. It isn't exactly spelt out, but the impression is that the conflict has worsened not only due to more and more Gestalt's relapsing, but a state of war gradually developing between the two factions fuelled by intolerance and misunderstanding.
The wolves hostility and desperation comes from the fact that the "world" is dying, and despite Roc's attempts to keep the peace the need for food is drawing them into conflict with the Replicants of Facade. They attack because they are hungry and territorial, first and foremost.
While I agree to some extent with Stu that what we see in the second loop just reinforces what we already know, its important for a bunch of reasons. Top of the list is Yokoo continuing his dissection of the JRPG hero: Nier is every bit as bloodthirsty as Caim in Drakengard, just a lot more personable! Its important that we understand how monstrous his unyielding determination to rescue Yonah makes him, by emphasizing the humanity of his opponents.
Then of course there's the whole sacrificial aspect, how the awareness of the Shades' humanity reflects on Kaine's tortured existence, and of course how knowing what we (as players) are killing changes our experience of the story completely.
The tragedy above all comes from both sides believing they are the "true" humans, and the other is therefore monstrous. It isn't exactly spelt out, but the impression is that the conflict has worsened not only due to more and more Gestalt's relapsing, but a state of war gradually developing between the two factions fuelled by intolerance and misunderstanding.
The wolves hostility and desperation comes from the fact that the "world" is dying, and despite Roc's attempts to keep the peace the need for food is drawing them into conflict with the Replicants of Facade. They attack because they are hungry and territorial, first and foremost.
While I agree to some extent with Stu that what we see in the second loop just reinforces what we already know, its important for a bunch of reasons. Top of the list is Yokoo continuing his dissection of the JRPG hero: Nier is every bit as bloodthirsty as Caim in Drakengard, just a lot more personable! Its important that we understand how monstrous his unyielding determination to rescue Yonah makes him, by emphasizing the humanity of his opponents.
Then of course there's the whole sacrificial aspect, how the awareness of the Shades' humanity reflects on Kaine's tortured existence, and of course how knowing what we (as players) are killing changes our experience of the story completely.
B ending spoilers.
I think by far the most important important revelation of the second playthrough is how Nier, and the player, actually functions as the antagonist in the game. Sure, many of the shades are aggressive, but they are relapsed and no longer possess consciousness. Their deaths are still tragic as they would have returned to human form in the event of reunification, the possibility of which you bring a permanent end to, but the game emphasises the nature of your actions most with the 'human' shades. Kalil never attacked you, Beepy tried to defend him. He is an innocent child, and you murder him. The shades in the castle are still human, and they only attack as you, the famed slaughterer of the 'true' humankind, have now made an incursion into their last sanctuary and begun to cut up their children. You represent blind rage and destruction, while they embody desperation and despair.
That Kaine can hear the shades cries for peace and mercy is an important element in understanding what torments her character and several of her self-destructive actions throughout the game. She is torn by this guilt; she wants to die. The nature of the actions of the player party are made all the more clear in that the game's supposed antagonist, the Shadowlord, has exactly the same motivations as you do. Devola and Popola were humanity's sustaining force, yet you cut straight through them. None of what the player does in Nier is admirable, indeed, the player deals the final blow to to the remnants of what was once humanity. That is the value of the second playthrough.
That Kaine can hear the shades cries for peace and mercy is an important element in understanding what torments her character and several of her self-destructive actions throughout the game. She is torn by this guilt; she wants to die. The nature of the actions of the player party are made all the more clear in that the game's supposed antagonist, the Shadowlord, has exactly the same motivations as you do. Devola and Popola were humanity's sustaining force, yet you cut straight through them. None of what the player does in Nier is admirable, indeed, the player deals the final blow to to the remnants of what was once humanity. That is the value of the second playthrough.
StuBurns said:
No, but the full extent to which he is not isn't as evident until the second playthrough. You're not just some single minded brute, you end up dooming everyone. Yonah will die anyway. To save your daughter, you deprive another just that without hesitation or consideration of the consequences. Nier is absolutely a deconstruction of the JRPG protagonist, and the second playthrough emphasises the collateral damage of your quest. The point of the second run is to make you consider again the actions you made without hesitation the first time round. You can do no different, but it is more clear, say, why the action halts when Kalil falls to the ground. It makes you want to stop. It wants you to look for another way, and then be resigned to repeating the cycle hopefully with an entirely different perspective.
Although I agree with that completely, I just don't think it's done elegantly at all. Where as in the first playthru it maintains a lot more subtlety, there are hints that you're seeing the tip of the iceberg and there is a lot more below. I don't think seeing those icebergs more fully at all improves my experience with the game. It expands my knowledge, but that's absolutely secondary to me.Yoshiya said:
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
About to face off against Beepy and Kalil in the second playthrough and...
Fuck this game and its guilt tripping shit. God, it's like a never-ending pit of misery this game :/
Neuromancer
Member
=(Dynamite Ringo Matsuri said:
Yeah I know what you mean.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Maybe I missed it in my playthroughs but why are people calling
Nier antagonistic? Maybe I missed something but I was under the impression that he never truly understood what was going on and what everything was because he was so focused on the one thing (saving his daughter), so I think it's unfair to say you were playing as a bad guy the whole time. He didn't know much better. Again, might have missed something but if not, then yeah.
ZephyrFate
Banned
In 2nd playthrough-Pyromaniac- said:
you can hear the Shades' voices and both Emil/Kaine comment on it, Nier remarks that he doesn't care, all he wants to do is kill them all. The point is that Nier is a personable Caim, and both are straight up murderers.
Augemitbutter
Member
so Nier will get a 2 CD drama released on Mar 24 2011 in japan.
either they haven't given up on the name yet, or they just milk until it's dry.
either they haven't given up on the name yet, or they just milk until it's dry.
ZephyrFate said:
I always thought that only Kaine/Tyrann could hear them. That is meant to be the crux of what torments Kaine throughout the game.
Frontier Works are handling the drama CD though, not SE, unlike the XIII drama CD. I don't know how to interpret that.Augemitbutter said:
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I don't understandZephyrFate said:
in the second playthrough the subtitles are purely for the player, not something Nier can actually understand. And only Kaine can hear Tyran, I'm quite sure of that. I really don't recall a moment in the game where he is fully aware of what's going on. Maybe he had chances to really think it over but like I said, his focus was purely on one thing, saving his daughter.
Augemitbutter
Member
Yoshiya said:
hm, i don't know either. but how often do they publish drama cds themselves? i rarely see them bothering with dramas, or they just slip my attention.
ZephyrFate
Banned
-Pyromaniac- said:
He can hear the Shades crying and using human voices in the second visit to The Aerie, and Nier disregards them entirely in his absolute bloodthirst.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I'm pretty sure I'm not misremembering that part, it's one of the few that is very confusing until the second playthrough.
Well, if they had no intent to expand further on Nier they probably wouldn't be producing all this extra content (arrange albums, licensing the drama CD, live performances). There was that statement from Yosuke Saito as well. If they wanted to forget Nier it wouldn't feature so heavily in even their peripheral plans. Especially after the performance of Front Misson, Mindjack and soon Gun Loco, Nier might look like one of their more promising new IP attempts.Augemitbutter said:
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
First playthough complete. Overall I enjoyed it. Story was good, if slipping in its narrative here and there, but the ending really didn't do enough to explain the whole twists and what not. Maybe these are explained further in Ending B, which I'll be going for, but they probably should have dedicated more time to fleshing things out.
The game had a lot of rough edges and flaws, but I still really enjoyed it. I really liked the bullet hell style of many boss fights and enemies, I liked the pure action combat, and I liked how the game would mix up its style in homage to many other games.
Some parts were pretty bad though. The boss fights at the junk heap were great, but everything else about those parts of the game was absolutely terrible. The machines were a pain in the arse to fight and no fun at all.
My biggest complaint, without a doubt, has to be the sidequests. The banter between Nier and Weiss were the only good parts, outside of the occasionally interesting story. As it stands though, 90% of the sidequests devolved into nothing more than utterly abysmal fetch quests. They were so bad I literally cannot think of another RPG I've played in years that had sidequests this bad. Nier would have been a better game had the sidequests been removed entirely and instead had their development time put towards other things, or the plethora of sidequests refined down into a meer few with richer content and variety.
As a whole though I felt Nier, and I said this earlier, has a lot in common with much of what I love about Grasshopper's games. Both them and Nier have this remarkable self-awareness in their execution and style that they seem more focused on introducing new and varied ideas and mechanics over maticulously polishing singular ones. A lot of what I loved about No More Heroes I felt was present in Nier, particularly perspective shifts and crazy boss fights.
Assuming its not overly difficult I will be going for all four endings, if just to 'finish' the game in its entirety.
The game had a lot of rough edges and flaws, but I still really enjoyed it. I really liked the bullet hell style of many boss fights and enemies, I liked the pure action combat, and I liked how the game would mix up its style in homage to many other games.
Some parts were pretty bad though. The boss fights at the junk heap were great, but everything else about those parts of the game was absolutely terrible. The machines were a pain in the arse to fight and no fun at all.
My biggest complaint, without a doubt, has to be the sidequests. The banter between Nier and Weiss were the only good parts, outside of the occasionally interesting story. As it stands though, 90% of the sidequests devolved into nothing more than utterly abysmal fetch quests. They were so bad I literally cannot think of another RPG I've played in years that had sidequests this bad. Nier would have been a better game had the sidequests been removed entirely and instead had their development time put towards other things, or the plethora of sidequests refined down into a meer few with richer content and variety.
As a whole though I felt Nier, and I said this earlier, has a lot in common with much of what I love about Grasshopper's games. Both them and Nier have this remarkable self-awareness in their execution and style that they seem more focused on introducing new and varied ideas and mechanics over maticulously polishing singular ones. A lot of what I loved about No More Heroes I felt was present in Nier, particularly perspective shifts and crazy boss fights.
Assuming its not overly difficult I will be going for all four endings, if just to 'finish' the game in its entirety.
Where is this supported in the game? I'd argue that your evidence is an indicator ofClear said:
Shadowlord control, not actual choice. Even durning NG+ I never got the impression that anything other than a few shades were non-bezerk, and even those were in a state of moderate confusion
ZephyrFate
Banned
The game makes fun of you for taking on the tedious sidequests... you don't HAVE to do them.
I'm pretty sure that you've decided on a specific moral interpretation of Nier's character and are grabbing at anything you can use to justify that, in spite of the game only providing the flimsiest support for it. The game repeatedly stresses that Nier is doing what he does in ignorance; at most the player is the "bad" person, but even that is questionable given the game world provided unless you want to get into white-man's-burden territory (which would reflect poorly on Cavia if that's the statement they are aiming for).ZephyrFate said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
On the contrary, Cavia actually blames
for Nier's actions.
you, the player
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Jesus, the game is really pretty damn bleak. People dying all over the place, and the world turning to shit. Finishing up some more side quests, got the trophy for catching the rhizodont, and the trophy for catching all the different species of fish.
longdi
Banned
completed both endings. imo worth twice the $14 bargain that was from Amazon. it has its flaws and predictable at times, some parallels with SOTC, but the OST is goddamn power in the money! I can say there are a lot of thoughts put into creating the whole experience. That is where i wanted jrpg to go, if you want to focus on story, than do a good job with it!
Finishing this game gives me full satisfaction. yummy.
Finishing this game gives me full satisfaction. yummy.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
ZephyrFate said:
Yeah, fine, but they're still shit. I dont care how people want to excuse it; most of them are terribly designed from a gameplay perspective and wouldn't be missed.
Neuromancer
Member
By the time I wanted to get them all, I was only missing 3. One you get from ending B and the other two I just had to do sidequests for. It wasn't that bad.hamchan said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
Whatever. I didn't think they were all that bad, honestly.EatChildren said:
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