casey_contra
Member
Let's say this is the Hero of Time in the failed timeline... does that mean that throughout the whole of OOT the Sheikah technology existed (along with the four beasts) but were just dormant/hidden?
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Zelda: BOTW Timeline Discussion *UNMARKED SPOILERS*
- Thread starter Durock
- Start date
Skittzo0413
Member
Ah I thought you were suggesting that it might be some precursor the the real Ganon/Ganondorf.
Yeah, it's clearly a different entity from Ganon but similar enough that it has the name Ganon. I think Zelda 2 AoL was all about preventing the resurrection of Ganon, but it might be possible that he came back in a different form after that. Who knows!
The translation of the map essentially says that the divine beasts and the guardians appeared to defeat Ganon after Link and Zelda failed. I don't know how to reconcile that with some of the cutscenes from the trailer though.
I think it's important to point out that in Japanes the voice in the story trailer calls it "the calamity known as/called Ganon", or something to that effect. So technically it's not "Calamity Ganon", it's "the calamity, Ganon" or "Ganon the calamity".
edit: as far as I could tell with my limited Japanese, that is.
I'm curious as to who Link and Zelda are. Link has some connection to 100 years prior, but is also right handed, which may hint that he's not OoT Link.
Zelda seems to know him prior to the game starting ("Wake up Link"). She also appears to be bathing in Skyview Spring, which could mean Hylia is returning.
Zelda seems to know him prior to the game starting ("Wake up Link"). She also appears to be bathing in Skyview Spring, which could mean Hylia is returning.
marcbret87
Member
I think it's pretty clear that when they released the first game back in 1986 it's impossible they had such a complex timeline thought out, and that not every game in the series was conceived with the idea of fitting in a particular section. However, there have always been some connections: Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 of the NES. The title A Link to the Past clearly means some sort of connection with other titles. A Link Between Worlds is a sequel to the SNES game. OoT clearly connects with Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Skyward Sword is the origin story.
Now, in terms of building a map of the story including all Zelda games, I suspect the problem came when they had to connect the old NES/SNES games to OoT while taking into account the post-OoT games. At that point they had to create the fallen timeline which doesn't really make much sense (unless BoTW focuses on this).
It might not be important, and I doubt games are designed giving a lot of thought to the timeline, but it's still interesting for long-time fans.
Gai Murakumo
Member
I still go by my theory that this is a psuedo remake of Zelda 1 where there is a decline in Hyrule and a Ganon comes in an completely demolishes the kingdom. But the timeline is really a bunch of bullocks anyways and was only created to appease fans.
Skittzo0413
Member
I don't think his handedness should ever be taken as any indication of anything.
However, does anyone remember from E3 when Aonuma (or Miyamoto?) said that he is right handed in BotW because your right hand is closer to the attack button or something like that?
Do you think this might actually tie into HD rumble now? So that the right joycon feels sword strikes and the left feels shield hits? Or something along those lines?
It's Reyn Time!
Member
Can I just chime in with this, Link being left or right handed doesn't mean anything - he was both left and right handed in Twilight Princess depending on which version you bought. They flipped the entire world just to make it look better for right handed players to control a sword with their right hands. We can't really assume anything based on which hand is his sword hand when it can change in two versions of the same game.
Considering every canon incarnation of the Hero of Time is depicted as left-handed - even his ghost, the Hero's Shade - it's a weird detail to change for a game with no swordplay motion controls. I guess they can retcon it, but it bugs me. :/
Not like that's affected past Zelda games. Anyways, the HD rumble can still work with a left-handed Link by switching which motors are activated.
It's a detail they've preserved with consistency. Twilight Princess HD has the left-handed Link since everything's button presses, all artwork has him left-handed, so that's his canon handedness.
Whatever, they can just say the Hero of Time's ambidextrous, or it's a parallel universe.
I really would love for this game to make sense of the 'Fallen Hero' timeline.
I'm just wondering how a second split could be created. This could be the Adult Link 'Fallen Hero' timeline if Link has to be resurrected, whereas Wind Waker is where Link disappears into the past.
Time travel always confuses things.
I'm just wondering how a second split could be created. This could be the Adult Link 'Fallen Hero' timeline if Link has to be resurrected, whereas Wind Waker is where Link disappears into the past.
Time travel always confuses things.
LOL, nice.
But I do think they'll go with a parallel universe explanation for the Downfall Timeline, and use Link's handedness as a 'visual indicator' of the failed Hero of Time.
The easiest way to explain it is, someone in the future used the Ocarina of Time to go back in time and mess with Link's quest in OoT. New timeline!
Edit: But I still dont understand why there are some references to the great sea, unless upon failling the gods also flooded hyrule just like before WW.
Inferno313
Banned
Then... You clearly haven't played some of these games. Because, while some Zelda games are fairly self-contained, others (Wind Waker, for example) contain deep connections throughout the entirety of their narrative to previous games. Pretty much all of the major 3D Zeldas since Ocarina of Time have clearly been operating in a timeline, making numerous allusions, and sometimes direct connections to other games.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Two things are making me doubt the idea that it's meant to be between OoT and LttP:
-Calamity Ganon's appearance was sudden and destructive. Ganondorf gained the King's trust slowly, then took over Hyrule for seven years, then supposedly defeated the Hero of Time Link in the final battle. "Final battle" is important, because it means that all of the stuff we saw as Adult Link in OoT happened, up until the final boss battle.
-The Temple of Time is in ruins on the Great Plateau, far away from Castle Town. If Ganondorf had been in power for seven years, and then as a destructive demon that destroyed the world for a century, who is rebuilding a Temple of Time miles away in a remote area and then it completely falling apart in 100 years?
-The flashback scene of the Guardians overrunning Castle Town. If Ganondorf had taken over, then why did the Sheikah wait so long to activate the Guardians? And more importantly, why is there even a Hyrule Castle and Castle Town for the Guardians to wreck? It should be Ganon's Castle built over the ruins of Hyrule Castle, and a ruined Castle Town, all shrouded in darkness. The Castle Town and Hyrule Castle we see being wrecked look perfectly fine, with living green trees and bushes.
-Calamity Ganon's appearance was sudden and destructive. Ganondorf gained the King's trust slowly, then took over Hyrule for seven years, then supposedly defeated the Hero of Time Link in the final battle. "Final battle" is important, because it means that all of the stuff we saw as Adult Link in OoT happened, up until the final boss battle.
-The Temple of Time is in ruins on the Great Plateau, far away from Castle Town. If Ganondorf had been in power for seven years, and then as a destructive demon that destroyed the world for a century, who is rebuilding a Temple of Time miles away in a remote area and then it completely falling apart in 100 years?
-The flashback scene of the Guardians overrunning Castle Town. If Ganondorf had taken over, then why did the Sheikah wait so long to activate the Guardians? And more importantly, why is there even a Hyrule Castle and Castle Town for the Guardians to wreck? It should be Ganon's Castle built over the ruins of Hyrule Castle, and a ruined Castle Town, all shrouded in darkness. The Castle Town and Hyrule Castle we see being wrecked look perfectly fine, with living green trees and bushes.
There is a bit of info in the other thread that reveals a quest named: 'Complete the Hero of Time's destiny'
It still could be a post WW after the sea drained (because of that salt item that refers to the great sea), but at this point its unlikely
Also, I really doubt they wont retcon some thing here and there to make the new games fit better with the old games. The master sword didnt sleep forever after alttp.
If this is true, then I wonder why the flashbacks supposedly depict him with entirely different clothing?
LinkSlayer64
Member
Salt Water Zoras are from Majora's Mask.
Majora's Mask!
So, I'm just gonna put my stuff into spoilers, as it has to do with the translation of the map.
Something that has always bugged me is something like the Sheikah, servants in secret to the royal family, not being many in number. This may be due to the lack of ability to properly show these hidden warriors in past game's technology. For all we know, perhaps there were many more Sheikah still present that helped to train Zelda during Ocarina of Time. The reason I bring this up, is because this piece of game merchandise directly references the Sheikah being many in number, but seems to take place after the establishment of Ganon as a force, which would mean it has to take place before OOT
It sounds like to me that the Sheikah were the ones to erect the 4 deities who sent a mechanical army out into the land. This frightened the king and the people, and thus he banished the Sheikah from the land, but the Sheikah have never been prominent in any of the games beyond Impa, which is why I posit that there have always been more we have not seen.
I imagine this has to take place in "hero falls" timeline, which means it either - takes place after OOT, Link is put to sleep (think about it, the hero of time, of course he is the one to be put in stasis for 100 years) and Sheikah have repelled the invasion from the Dark World, thus retconning the "Knights of Hyrule" maybe?
Or takes place after Zelda II... somehow *gives up*
The banishment of the Sheikah could also mean the beginning of the Twili, but it would take insane work to fit it into that timeline.
It sounds like to me that the Sheikah were the ones to erect the 4 deities who sent a mechanical army out into the land. This frightened the king and the people, and thus he banished the Sheikah from the land, but the Sheikah have never been prominent in any of the games beyond Impa, which is why I posit that there have always been more we have not seen.
I imagine this has to take place in "hero falls" timeline, which means it either - takes place after OOT, Link is put to sleep (think about it, the hero of time, of course he is the one to be put in stasis for 100 years) and Sheikah have repelled the invasion from the Dark World, thus retconning the "Knights of Hyrule" maybe?
Or takes place after Zelda II... somehow *gives up*
The banishment of the Sheikah could also mean the beginning of the Twili, but it would take insane work to fit it into that timeline.
As a lefty, who looked up to Link and "played zelda" as a kid in his backyard partly because Link was left handed like him, it does matter. They don't give you the option to reverse it in the motion controlled games.
Press button with right hand to swing sword, left hand rumbles - could be seen as odd and might feel wrong, due to that disconnect. You may argue what about the shield, but the shield is a much more passive interaction, as you hold up the shield and get hit, not hit with it (unless shield bashing is a thing)
Skittzo0413
Member
There was an ancient sea mentioned even in Skyward Sword. Hell, you actually sail through it!
Is it confirmed that OoT Link is the one and only "Hero of Time?"
Don't they say, in OoT, that he has the spitting image of the Hero of Time? Meaning that, perhaps it's simply a title given to all the various Link's throughout the ages?
I see what you mean, looks like as long as HD rumble is a thing, Link will be right-handed from this point on.
Hyrule Historia is pretty consistent with naming OoT/MM Link as the Hero of Time. The others have names like Hero of Men, Hero of Winds, of Twilight, etc.
Inferno313
Banned
Nah, Hero of Time is 100% Ocarina of Time link.
Oh right, I forgot about that sea and I played SS.
I dont remember that bit about the hero of time, but someone else could defeat ganon and 'Complete the Hero of Time's destiny', doesnt have to be the same Link
Edit: That reminds me, remember when a long time ago Aonuma talked about a game where Link would fail because he is not the hero. I know that ended up being nothing, but with how many times they give little hints for next games like Anouna talking about how his son told him maybe link would fly in the next game (before SS), or Miyamoto saying he wanted alttp for 3ds but a new zelda game too (before albw) I wonder....
CloudyTuba
Member
I haven't ever played a full Legend of Zelda game so I'm a stranger to the story details, but I wandered into this thread because I find the timeline stuff fascinating. Reading about it has brought me to a question:
Is Link a singular character (with multiple timeline versions), or is there actually more than one Link? I find references to a Link meeting a previous Link and I'm like...wut. Is it a title or reincarnation or something? Or did I just take a wrong turn and misunderstand?
Is Link a singular character (with multiple timeline versions), or is there actually more than one Link? I find references to a Link meeting a previous Link and I'm like...wut. Is it a title or reincarnation or something? Or did I just take a wrong turn and misunderstand?
Skittzo0413
Member
Yeah this also really does make sense of what was said at E3 about the reasoning behind him being right handed.
Gotcha, thanks. It's been a while since I read the Hyrule Historia.
Yeah I suppose this is true. Maybe defeating Calamity Ganon where the Hero of Time failed could be considered completing his destiny.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I think the most literal and immediate sequel in the entire series is Phantom Hourglass. Picking up right where The Wind Waker leaves off with Link and Tetra sailing to new lands
However I always felt Skyward Sword made a very explicit shout-out when Fi remarked that "oral history" was an inaccurate way of preserving knowledge. In other words, don't sweat the details. Each Zelda is the telling of a myth or legend and the details don't have to match up exactly.
In Skyward Sword the big bad evil guy is called Demise, and right at the end he cursed Link, Zelda and himself to be reincarnated through the ages and fight again and again.
That being said, it seems like there are some outliers like WW Link posibly not being a reicarnation (given that the hero was removed from that timeline by OoT Zelda), and the hero's shade being able to interact with his "reincarnation".
Spirit Orbs, apparently they're used to trade for key-items, and also to recover memories.
It's not really reincarnation though. It's the Spirit of the Hero and bloodline of Hylia. So it's more of a vague embodiment of those two original characters rather than literal reincarnation of their souls. Same for Demises hatred, Ganondorf is his own character, but he has the same kind of hated as Demise, not that he literally is Demise reborn or anything.
Outside of the games though Link is Link, Zelda is Zelda, Ganondorf is Ganondorf. Differentiating between the various game versions is largely just differentiating between art styles and aesthetics. The series greater lore, narrative and history are all just there to justify the reuse of those characters, settings and framework of events.
Yeah but who's spirit is it? Are we recovering memories or reliving someone elses?
Granted, the fuckin Deku Tree asking Link if he remembers him seems like it fits so I dunno, will be interesting to see what's going on.
Gonna go on a limb and suggest that this is post Adventure of Link (at long last).
The appearance of what appears to be technological strides gives me pause, and makes me think that all of this went down in several eras after Z1/Z2 Link finally reunited the Triforce and Hyrule possibly enjoyed several ages of peace. We even see races like the Kokiri/Koroks, Sea Zora and Gorons reappear in this timeline, after being largely no shows from ALBW on down.
Certainly by this point in the "Fallen" Timeline branch, it's established that Ganon is more demon than man, and a few incomplete resurrections here and there have been hinted to continuously ebb away at his sanity and sense of self. The idea that he's come back again as "Calamity Ganon", which is more a force of nature than anything else, is something that I could definitely see.
Plus, with the way that they've been making for all of the "Zelda 1" throwbacks, I can't help but feel like that much is on purpose. We may be going back to that Hyrule, several centuries after the fact.
The appearance of what appears to be technological strides gives me pause, and makes me think that all of this went down in several eras after Z1/Z2 Link finally reunited the Triforce and Hyrule possibly enjoyed several ages of peace. We even see races like the Kokiri/Koroks, Sea Zora and Gorons reappear in this timeline, after being largely no shows from ALBW on down.
Certainly by this point in the "Fallen" Timeline branch, it's established that Ganon is more demon than man, and a few incomplete resurrections here and there have been hinted to continuously ebb away at his sanity and sense of self. The idea that he's come back again as "Calamity Ganon", which is more a force of nature than anything else, is something that I could definitely see.
Plus, with the way that they've been making for all of the "Zelda 1" throwbacks, I can't help but feel like that much is on purpose. We may be going back to that Hyrule, several centuries after the fact.
The 100 years of rest should've fixed his broken left arm, I think this Link is just naturally right-handed or ambidextrous. Not like it still can't be the Hero of Time, they can use the parallel universe excuse, or this is a different Link entirely.
Yeah, that was bothering me about that idea. The rest should have healed it. But maybe something happened to prevent that. It's probably more likely to be gameplay reasons.
Just like lttp Link went from left handed to ambidextrous in LA.
It might be set after OoT. Hero of Time falls, Ganon obtains godhood, Zelda seals him, time passes, kingdom rebuilt, Skyloft is moved, Calamity Ganon breaks free.
This Link doesn't need to be the Hero of Time to complete the Hero of Time's legacy.
Skyloft would have been underground after SS. I think they mobilized it again to move the temple of time to a safer place.
The map doesn't say the Hero and Princess failed. It says they sealed Ganon. Although Link falls protecting her, Zelda does seal Ganon
Zelda clearly goes to the Skyward Sword springs to seal Ganon the same way Demise was sealed. Zelda sealed demise for 100s of years with that seal.I'm curious as to who Link and Zelda are. Link has some connection to 100 years prior, but is also right handed, which may hint that he's not OoT Link.
Zelda seems to know him prior to the game starting ("Wake up Link"). She also appears to be bathing in Skyview Spring, which could mean Hylia is returning.
The map does not say the Sheikah were banished. It says they scattered. Zeltik's discord decided to say banished because they thought the pictures looked like the Sheikah were being banished but that's not what the text says.
I also like to think that BotW also takes place after Zelda 2, but the only thing hurting that theory in my head is that Ganon can only be resurrect by the blood of the hero. Come to think of it though, who's to say that a Link after Zelda 2 "died" and his blood was used to resurrect Ganon quickly while the Sheikahs grabbed that Link in placed him in stasis to heal for 100 years.
He's this way because he got the complete triforce. His wish overwhelmed him with godlike power and he became a demon. He's called a calamity, which is the same term used to describe him in ALttP. ALttP also describes him in the backstory as an evil energy/gas, which is what he looks like in BotW.
Skittzo0413
Member
Wait, so Zeltik's translation of the map is incorrect or has added speculation? I wasn't aware of that.
NightwingRebirth
Member
Wind Waker is directly followed by Phantom Hourglass which leads to them moving to a different continent as shown in Spirit Tracks.
Wat
The Calamity Ganon might be a botched resurrection, devoid of any cognition whatsoever, since they couldn't get Link's blood.
I don't see this is following Wind Waker, maybe parallel to it on another timeline, but there's not enough room in the Adult Timeline due to the New Hyrule business.
I agree with that sentiment, but the issue remains that Hyrule Historia is pretty clear about the events of the Imprisoning War. Link failed, but Zelda and Sages prevailed, albeit only for a time. Sacred Realm was corrupted and a gateway to it was found which people seduced by the stories of the Triforce went through and were corrupted by it. They tried to find a hero worthy of wielding the Master Sword to confront Ganon but none was found. Ganon used them as an army to invade Hyrule but was repulsed by the Knights of Hyrule and once again sealed away by the Seven Sages. The end.
To have this game detail those events you'd basically have to rewrite that whole entry in the timeline.
It's the same kind of folly that fans who use to, and some who still do, keep asking for a WW prequel to show the fall of Hyrule. The entire point of these events was the fact that no hero was present. The people of Hyrule and the Sages repelled Ganon on their own and on the other side the people could not repel him and so the Gods intervened. To throw Link in there to actually play the central role defeats the whole purpose of the following games. They are the Links that rise to "finally" defeat the great evil of the past.
Yeah, I don't see a reason for the New Hylians to leave their home to return to the ruins of their old land of a few hundred years. Doesn't make sense after establishing their new Empire somewhere else.
CloudyTuba
Member
This reminds me of the plot of Yu-Gi-Oh with the wishy-washy reincarnation. Certain characters that existed in ancient times developed a sort of eternal rivalry. Couple thousand years later they get born again and rekindle those rivalries.
Except some of them end up meeting the spirits of their predecessors. They are distinct from each other with different "souls" and personalities, but with similar appearances and lives.
Right idea?
That's pretty neat. I was not aware of that before. So with each new game there is not only a question of timeline, but also of whether the Link is an existing Link or a new one. Is that right? Do any Links/Zeldas/Ganons ever gain memories from a previous version?
I'm assuming that people have gathered from trailers that this game has a new Link from the way people talk about it. Or is that still up in the air too?