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Zelda creator Eiji Aonuma thinks linear games are a thing of the past...
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
- Start date
March Climber
Gold Member
There are levels to it.
1)Open world but linear missions are extremely restrictive
2)Open world but linear missions allow for multiple approaches
3)A Hitman Level (Huge Biome, kill target any way you please)
4)Mass Effect style narrative, where the end of a mission might swing your campaign and area access in a different direction entirely.
5) Open world but missions allow for improvisation or can end immediately if certain parameters are met, or can end two missions at once if multiple parameters are met. Can potentially finish the entire game within the hour by sequence breaking, if you know where to go and who to kill.
6) Baldur’s Gate 3 “choose your own adventure book” style
7) Minecraft, where the narrative and idea of a mission are almost all gone but you are given near infinite freedom.
I’m sure I’m probably missing a step but the open world formula you’re describing is a Rockstar game, which would lie under number 1. Ubisoft would lie under number 2. I’d say BotW and ToTk lie within number 5. One day there will be something in between 6 and 7 when games become complex enough.
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Not even close to a "linear" experience. Fully open, explorable areas with tons of optional side quests and various choices of what guns to use and upgrade to cater to your playstyle.
Closer, but still a game that gates progression based on an item you can get varying amounts of from different levels. You can choose to fully explore some levels and entirely skip others to progress.
"Open" doesn't just mean an empty chasm of a map with 5 minutes of walking between interesting things like BOTW. It's a broader design philosophy and that's what Eiji's talking about here.
Sakura
Member
I think that is kind of a poor take by Aonuma.
He should be asking what it is about the older Zelda games that people miss rather than just reducing it into linear vs non-linear.
When people are asking for a return to the traditional style, it could be because, for example, they miss having good dungeons. Maybe it is because they want a story that doesn't require them to go search for stupid tears in the overworld. These sorts of things don't necessarily have to be exclusive to linear Zeldas.
He should be asking what it is about the older Zelda games that people miss rather than just reducing it into linear vs non-linear.
When people are asking for a return to the traditional style, it could be because, for example, they miss having good dungeons. Maybe it is because they want a story that doesn't require them to go search for stupid tears in the overworld. These sorts of things don't necessarily have to be exclusive to linear Zeldas.
Ok sure, but the older "linear" Zeldas are like that too.
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
For sure, but BOTW and TOTK are so far beyond that at this point that it makes every old Zelda feel much more linear.
For what it's worth my favourites are still some of the older ones. I think BOTW's one of the greatest games ever made, but I have no intention of replaying it, I'd rather boot up any of the 2D ones any day. There's also no chance in hell they're ever going back to a linear style in 3D Zelda now, you can't untie that knot.
The artful mincer
Member
I think what they would do is remakes as a way to solve that problem + a continuation of those stories. Like a spiritual successor aka A link Between worlds.
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Flutta
Banned
Both are fine. Issue with open world games they tend to be more bloated on repeat, usually have shittier story and can be a slog to play through at times so yeah.
Regarding Zelda imo OoT and MM had both better story and more challenging puzzels, better dungeons and also more memorable characters.
Regarding Zelda imo OoT and MM had both better story and more challenging puzzels, better dungeons and also more memorable characters.
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sigmaZ
Member
It's about randomly coming across content through exploration. More random equals better. Aonuma's approach's weakness so far has been the recycled content. Too much copy and pace with slight variants just to make the world more full. The disconnect is that you build the world around the activities not the other way around. That's why some people might prefer certain things about the more linear games.
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
If you wanna limit the definition, go ahead, but as above there's a reason why Eiji's calling the old Zelda games "linear" even though they really aren't. Even as far back as Zelda 1 you can choose to do any of the first few dungeons in any order. It's just become MORE open with the latest entries. Resident Evil similarly has always given players the freedom to explore different rooms in different orders, entirely skip certain things and complete puzzles at different paces, even if the plot largely plays out in the same way.
It's a scale, not black and white. If different players can choose to do things in a different way or order to others, that doesn't sound very linear to me. Or we can be boring and say "open = big map with markers".
crackajack
Member
The success of GTA and TES as the tentpole titles is imho cancerous.
Open worlds are way too unfocused filler shit games and even if there is a decent story, it get's watered down and loses any punch by all the sidequest and huge maps. In those games everything takes forever to do (RDR2 AC:V with their way too big worlds or also compact Yakuza but with ultra repetitive back forth)
I love semi/mildly open stuff like Crysis, wide still linear corridors, or playgrounds with limited size like Hitman, but lately each time when I play a strictly linear game I feel a relief after all the wasted time each of that open world garbage requires from me.
Open worlds are way too unfocused filler shit games and even if there is a decent story, it get's watered down and loses any punch by all the sidequest and huge maps. In those games everything takes forever to do (RDR2 AC:V with their way too big worlds or also compact Yakuza but with ultra repetitive back forth)
I love semi/mildly open stuff like Crysis, wide still linear corridors, or playgrounds with limited size like Hitman, but lately each time when I play a strictly linear game I feel a relief after all the wasted time each of that open world garbage requires from me.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Yikes...imagine all games being openworld. What a boring industry this would be.
Skelterz
Member
Do you know what I actually think it could potentially, it’s revered and potentially the most important 3D game ever made at that time, the switch has sold 100m+ units it wouldent surprise me for an OOT remake to sell upwards of 50-60m units lifetime tbh especially if it launched for the current switch and the next switch. I think Mario kart is sitting at 40/50m sold it could even be more.
List of best-selling Nintendo Switch games
This is the list of best-selling Nintendo Switch video games in millions of copies sold from both physical and digital download sales, as of June 30, 2024. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is currently the system's best-selling game. The Nintendo Switch system has sold 143.42 million units (combined with...
nintendo.fandom.com
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CuteFaceJay
Member
They already made it. Called BOTW.
I'll be honest if they make a 1:1 of OOT I wouldn't bother buying it when I have TOTK. Maybe a handful of folks who can get hooked by the nostalgia bait really easy.
kyussman
Member
I'm sick of open world games the way the vast majority are designed......give me something like Death Stranding where the world design and gameplay are linked and I'm happy.....the general gaint open world with enemy camps dotted everywhere just won't cut it for me anymore.That sense of wonder being able to explore a giant open world has long since passed when you know exactly what you're going to find every step of the way.Take that new Avatar game,I bet I could draw a map of that games world without ever having played it and get pretty close to what it actually is.
Do you know what I actually think it could potentially, it’s revered and potentially the most important 3D game ever made at that time, the switch has sold 100m+ units it wouldent surprise me for an OOT remake to sell upwards of 50-60m units lifetime tbh especially if it launched for the current switch and the next switch. I think Mario kart is sitting at 40/50m sold it could even be more.
List of best-selling Nintendo Switch games
This is the list of best-selling Nintendo Switch video games in millions of copies sold from both physical and digital download sales, as of June 30, 2024. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is currently the system's best-selling game. The Nintendo Switch system has sold 143.42 million units (combined with...
Skelterz
Member
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Robb
Gold Member
I think people might be misinterpreting what he’s saying, or maybe I am. But I don’t really think he means that linear games per se are inferior, but that limited player agency is.
You can have a game that’s structured like a traditional Zelda and still follow a non-linear philosophy, i.e. being able to solve puzzles in multiple (or near unlimited) ways etc. etc., for example.
I think it’s more about being able to pull off stuff like this:
Rather than strictly being ‘open-world’.
In prior games the solution to most things in these games were pretty much ‘move a box that’s fixed to the floor in the correct position’, ‘shoot this eye on the wall with an arrow’ etc.
You can have a game that’s structured like a traditional Zelda and still follow a non-linear philosophy, i.e. being able to solve puzzles in multiple (or near unlimited) ways etc. etc., for example.
I think it’s more about being able to pull off stuff like this:
Rather than strictly being ‘open-world’.
In prior games the solution to most things in these games were pretty much ‘move a box that’s fixed to the floor in the correct position’, ‘shoot this eye on the wall with an arrow’ etc.
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Hudo
Member
This is also what I got from him.
KXVXII9X
Member
Well, I definitely think that strictly linear games with no deviation whatsoever are really dated for sure if that is what we are talking about. I really like the trend of "wide linear" and more semi linear games. I would still categorize them more as linear but less restricted. People definitely do like having freedom of choice, including myself which is why BG3 is popular. I think you can still have Zelda TotK's sense of player freedom with a smaller scope. I think we both agree on that design philosophy.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Stuff like this is why BG3 and TotK feel so fun to play. The fact that they let you do virtually anything and continue on just fine without the game breaking is an incredible feeling. I can’t count how many times in TotK I did something that I’m sure wasn’t the “intended” solution or path to take but it just worked, it’s awesome. There’s something to be said for the old, linear puzzles of yesteryear but I don’t think there’s any going back at this point
Basically this cements to me that Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess will always be the best Zelda games which is unfortunate. ToTK was alot of fun but without incredible dungeon/item/boss design or an interesting atmosphere/story the formula will never be peak Zelda.
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KXVXII9X
Member
I really hope that is what he meant, because then I would 100% agree. I don't think this kind of player agency is limited to open world. Immersive Sims like Deus Ex have a ton of player agency with a scaled back semi-open environment.
I hope he isn't thinking that people don't want player agency as I think it is the reason BG3 and Zelda TotK were so positively talked about. I personally thought the game was too big with horrible pacing and I think the massive open world design dilutes the potential of the game. I think big controlled areas like The Great Sky Island felt better crafted as there were some restrictions which made you not wander aimlessly and use more of the games mechanics.
Shake Your Rump
Gold Member
The irony is that, by designing around the wide variety of possible decisions, the actual decisions seem to lose all weight. The game is, by design, ignoring the decisions you make.
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Xdrive05
Member
This all but confirms that Switch 2 Zelda will not be another formula shake-up, or a return to the roots, but will be yet another massive TOTK approach. It will probably have a lot of new mechanics, but almost certainly still just a giant sandbox again.
And since they'll probably need a whole new map this time around you can forget about playing it before 2028 at the earliest. Or it may even launch at the tail end of Switch 2's life. Maybe 2030.
Really wish they would break off a B team and make a new "linear" one, or maybe even a top-down 2.5D, with tightly crafted, deliberate gameplay again.
And since they'll probably need a whole new map this time around you can forget about playing it before 2028 at the earliest. Or it may even launch at the tail end of Switch 2's life. Maybe 2030.
Really wish they would break off a B team and make a new "linear" one, or maybe even a top-down 2.5D, with tightly crafted, deliberate gameplay again.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
That's what I got from this. There is no one ultimate goal of video games, a definite end goal, especially not "freedom". He makes it sound like there's a linear line of evolution towards player freedom and everything is just a stepping stone until we get there. Like you said, baffling for a game designer to think and say out loud. The Blues and Rock analogy is right on the money.
So basically as long as this dude is in charge of Zelda, just avoid by default for me because the completely aimless "freedom" of Breath was incredibly boring to me after a few hours.
PianistaMacabro
Member
Games are forgetting one of the core human nature......storytelling. We are essencially linear in the way we understand our surrouding. How can he say that?
Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma thinks linear games are "games of the past"
Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom producer Eiji Aonuma has responded to fans' hopes of a traditional linear Zelda game, sayin…www.eurogamer.net
"It's interesting when I hear people say [I miss traditional linear Zelda]," Aonuma revealed, "because I'm wondering 'why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the types of things or ways you can play? Games which have a strict order of events are "kind of games of the past," Aonuma said, whilst modern games "can accept a player's own decisions and give them the freedom to flexibly proceed". This is the design philosophy of the Zelda team at Nintendo, he stated, though he added "I do have to admit making games that way always carries with it additional development costs".
Why
NOT
BOTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Scotty W
Banned
The massive hype for MM is a triumph of nostalgia over reality. And this nostalgia is for a few specific moments rather than the whole game. There is a lot of broken 90’s style gameplay involved here. The trading sequences to get into the Ice Dungeon and Ikana desert are pure tedium that no one with an internet connection will today suffer to figure out. Upon replay, even the best sequence in the game-infiltrating the Gerudo fortress- does not hold up that well.
But how magical those few magic moments are.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma thinks linear games are "games of the past"
Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom producer Eiji Aonuma has responded to fans' hopes of a traditional linear Zelda game, sayin…
"It's interesting when I hear people say [I miss traditional linear Zelda]," Aonuma revealed, "because I'm wondering 'why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the types of things or ways you can play? Games which have a strict order of events are "kind of games of the past," Aonuma said, whilst modern games "can accept a player's own decisions and give them the freedom to flexibly proceed". This is the design philosophy of the Zelda team at Nintendo, he stated, though he added "I do have to admit making games that way always carries with it additional development costs".
He's WRONG! Games like these will always exist.
- Resident Evil
- Dead Space Remake
- OctoPath Traveler
- Lies of P
- A Plague's Tale
- Inside
- God of War
- Super Mario: Wonder
- The Last of US
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Except not everyone want the bolded in every game. It'll be too stupid to make every game that way. It's NOT needed at all!!
Mozza
Member
I doubt it would, both BOTW and TOTK, have eclipsed sales of all the older tittles. The open world has given Zelda the sales the series always deserved, as it caters to a much wider audience.
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SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Has it been improving? Honestly looks the same to me. Icons on a map. You do whatever repetition you feel like doing.
No freedom of how to tackle objectives during the mission. No consequences for decisions you make.
I feel your first example makes up for the vast majority of open world games.
The other examples I’d wish we’d see more of. Those are what make open world games shine.
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Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The least interesting part of breath of the wild is the open world. It’s far too empty.
If they continue with open world they are on the right track with ToTK but it could still be half the size and more dense, and it’d be better off for the players engagement. If they go bigger then they need less repetitive ignorable content and more things worth a shit to go see and do.
ToTK had plenty to go see and do but it can take a while to get to it sometimes, and sometimes what you find is just “eh.”
If they continue with open world they are on the right track with ToTK but it could still be half the size and more dense, and it’d be better off for the players engagement. If they go bigger then they need less repetitive ignorable content and more things worth a shit to go see and do.
ToTK had plenty to go see and do but it can take a while to get to it sometimes, and sometimes what you find is just “eh.”
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
I’ll wager my left nut you are wrong.
A properly done ocarina of time remake would be Zelda’s, and Nintendos overall, best selling game of all time.
Phase
Member
Do you not understand that gaming was still shunned and very niche when MM came out? Clearly not.what in the botw and totks over 50 millions combined MM sold 6
Mozza
Member
Nostalgia goggles at their finest, OOT is a great game, but things have moved on.
Mozza
Member
Whichever way you slice it, BOTW and TOTK have sold much better, and BOTW was a launch title.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Because 6 - 8 million is less than 40+ million.
If you had 2 jobs, and one paid 6 times more, no one in their right mind would tell you to work both.
The artful mincer
Member
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Nah... fuck this guy. He's wrong.
Depends. One of the jobs costs 6x or more less. Its even in the original quote. "I do have to admit making games that way always carries with it additional development costs".
SantaC
Member
Gaming wasnt as big back thenlinears zelda had lower sales and scores my friends hes right
The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom Is the Fastest Selling Nintendo Game
The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom holds the world records for fastest-selling Nintendo game and fastest-selling Zelda game.www.siliconera.com
