Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

A brief comment or two about the Sony W900A.

It only comes in a 55 inch size in North America. Those of you from foreign are lucky there, you get ones that are bigger. I was upgrading from a 52 inch set and getting 55 inches would have been pissing away money, the size difference was insignificant. So I ended up with a 65 inch VT60.

The W900A has a regular Game Mode with all motion enhancement turned off which has the usual LCD motion blur. The amazing new thing about the W900A is Motionflow Impulse, which strobes the panel at each refresh to remove sample-and-hold blur. It doesn't solve the problem of delay while the liquid crystals needing to twist and untwist, which means there is still some image smearing. It also creates 2 new problems. The first is that the brightness of the picture is drastically reduced and some people in bright rooms will find it hard to see what is going on as the panel is much dimmer. The second is that you now get to enjoy CRT-like flickering at 60 hz refresh, if you used to get a headache from a computer monitor refreshing at 60 hz you'll probably get one here.

The W900A is a pretty amazing gaming TV but let's not lose sight of it's problems, and it has some just like every other TV on the market. It's an edge-lit LED-LCD, which means there will be inevitable flashlighting, uneven uniformity, banding/DSE, and the usual problems that edge-lit LED-LCDs have.
 
I actually haven't really noticed flickering on impulse. Seems it depends on the person it seems.

The brightness decrease tho limits it to dark room viewing and to movie ps more specifically.

Vanilla game mode still performs admirably with it turned off.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
A lot of people don't realize that the Xbone is just using HDMI CEC to control your TV as well. There is absolutely nothing interesting about what the Xbone does in that regard.
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False. Block the view of your Kinect and TV control (turning it on for example) won't work.
 
I committed a grave sin and threw away my old Plasma in exchange for an LED backlit LCD, the immediately noticeable motion blur is what bothers me to this day.

It hurts even more knowing that Panasonic will cease all Plasma production by next month, I just won't have enough til then to splash out on a shiny VT65. :(

I'd also like to comment that the reason I opted for LCD was because it was the only technology at the time which offered 1080p, there were hardly any decent 1080p plasmas, virtually none.
 
Man, I waited all year to get a Panasonic plasma with my tax return, but I got scared off by reports of people in real life and in this thread getting image retention.

Right now I'm looking at 3 tvs from back at CES:

- the LG tvs with that nifty webOS
- the Panasonic LEDs which are supposed to be close to the 2013 Panasonic plasmas in picture quality
- the Vizio cheap 4K P-series.

I kinda want to wait and see how the pricing goes for all 3 by the end of March. Hopefully they will have low input lag as well having good picture quality.
 
I think now is the time to get into LEDs. Once FALD gets going things may get better. if even the shitty e -Series can look this good, imagine what the advanced versions will be like? IIRC all of the new Vizios will be good for gaming. As of now the E-Series has very low input lag, or low enough that I can't tell.

Panasonic says the new LEDs will "match plasmas", but, I dunno cause none of their LEDs in the past have. We'll see, but, I can tell you LEDs wont reach plasma if they keep using edge-lit.
 
Gaffercake said:
I committed a grave sin and threw away my old Plasma in exchange for an LED backlit LCD, the immediately noticeable motion blur is what bothers me to this day.

It hurts even more knowing that Panasonic will cease all Plasma production by next month, I just won't have enough til then to splash out on a shiny VT65. :(

I'd also like to comment that the reason I opted for LCD was because it was the only technology at the time which offered 1080p, there were hardly any decent 1080p plasmas, virtually none.
Click to expand...

Did you literally throw your plasma away ? In the garbage ? Not cool bro.

Also, by the time LED backlit LCD's came out, there most definitely were good 1080p plasmas on the market. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Panasonic officially stopped plasma production in December of last year. Where are you getting your info from ?
 
Rex_Harrison said:
Panasonic officially stopped plasma production in December of last year. Where are you getting your info from ?
Click to expand...

No. They are closing the last factory next month. That is when distributors can't order any of them. This info is straight from a Panasonic distributor.
 
TheChewyWaffles said:
I couldn't get an answer in the computer thead, but does anyone know why my PC looks washed out on my BenQ projector? The Ps4 and xbone look fine - everything looks washed out when I use my PC though :(
Click to expand...
Something to do with the RGB settings in your Nvidia control panel I'm guessing. That's what happened with me in Windows.
 
AlimNassor said:
I think now is the time to get into LEDs. Once FALD gets going things may get better. if even the shitty e -Series can look this good, imagine what the advanced versions will be like? IIRC all of the new Vizios will be good for gaming. As of now the E-Series has very low input lag, or low enough that I can't tell.

Panasonic says the new LEDs will "match plasmas", but, I dunno cause none of their LEDs in the past have. We'll see, but, I can tell you LEDs wont reach plasma if they keep using edge-lit.
Click to expand...
Here's Cnet's coverage of them:
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-35303_1-57617001/panasonics-prototype-4k-led-boasts-plasma-like-picture/

While the demo scenes from the animated movie "The Secret World of Arrietty" weren't all that convincing with a lack of true blacks, it wasn't until the company showed off one of our favorite black-level tests, the hilltop scene from "Harry Potter" ("Deathly Hallows Part II," Chapter 12, 45:55), that the differences between the three TVs emerged. The WT600 showed a distinct lack of contrast, with the faces on the mountain failing to appear from under the darkness of the image, but the ZT60 and the prototype looked very similar with deep blacks and great low-level shadow detail -- the faces also popped. The black bars on the prototype also looked black. There was a distinct lack of blooming or sudden changes in the backlight which makes this one of the best and most subtle dimming systems I've ever seen.

How does Panasonic achieve this kind of picture wizardry? The company says the TV uses technology from the now-defunct plasma range to analyze black-level signals and then optimize the signal to reproduce shadow detail without sacrificing the brightness of highlights. For example, when most backlight-dimming TVs reproduce the moon in a night sky it will reduce the backlight to get black blacks but the moon will look dimmer than on a plasma. Panasonic's technology could potentially alleviate this problem.

Panasonic claims that the panel is also able to reproduce a wider range of colors than most LCDs with a technology it calls Super Chroma Drive. Again using plasma smarts the panel utilizes a "3D Color Management" system to better conform to the existing Rec. 709 standard, as David Mackenzie at HDTV Test explains here .

Given the potential of this technology, I am of course eager to test it in a real-world situation.
Click to expand...

Also, here's their look at Vizio:
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/vizio-rs120/4505-6482_7-35833922.html?autoplay=true
 
Artakartel said:
- the Panasonic LEDs which are supposed to be close to the 2013 Panasonic plasmas in picture quality
Click to expand...
No launch date yet, and it's not something you can say like that because it implies "all" panasonic LED TV's will be like that, it's only one model, set to cost $4500 in the 58" flavour. (and no models under 58" I'm afraid)

Also, it has no chance of surpassing plasma outside of "controlled tests", as it has been said the ZT60 had panel luminance set to low in there, motion is bound to be worse, motion blur is bound to be present and uniformity will suffer too (this one was actually pointed out even judging from the cherry picked prototype and without them having the opportunity to run slides.

I also suspect it's only hitting DCI 98% because they're doing 1080p streched from 1 pixel onto 4 pixels (4K), using look up tables (the look up table part was actually admitted) and letting your eyes do the rest (merge detail down)

It's very exciting, yes, but curb your enthusiasm.
AlimNassor said:
Panasonic says the new LEDs will "match plasmas", but, I dunno cause none of their LEDs in the past have. We'll see, but, I can tell you LEDs wont reach plasma if they keep using edge-lit.
Click to expand...
They don't even manufacture LCD's anymore, much like Sony.

They control the backlight section only (like Sony, and their dynamic dimming and/or strobing capabilities), hence, they'll be doing the backlight for said LCD's with all the plasma tech they can muster to adapt.

it's full array with color color quantization lifted from the plasma tech (and heavy input from the previously Plasma-exclusive team). Make no mistake though, this thing is chasing plasma, like Panasonic plasmas did against the Kuro's, not the other way around.

It's gonna be more expensive than current plasmas though, at least initially. So yeah.
 
Lima said:
Ahem that is a prototype display. It will not be in a set this year.
Click to expand...
It's actually supposed to be available in some way or form throughout the year, they said as much.

Question is if it matches expectations or not, like you said it was a prototype and they said they were working on it throughout the whole expo, this is like saying Panasonic could have shown Kuro prototypes every year since 2008, but they only matched them in 2013.

This tech was actually unearthed, back when they first shown NeoPDP they shown a NeoLCD screen as well, promising the very same. Then they shelved it no doubt because plasma was better, so what changed? The need to go 4K, the market going for more than 65"(which would be an issue for the production line and energy constraints)... and the plasma shrinking sales.

Question for this is down to actual complexity (and final proposed complexity) and yields, actual lifespan of the device, etc etc. Just like they actually shown a 4K Plasma at some point. Now mass producing it? Fuck me.

Just because it's possible to do as a proof of concept doesn't mean it's possible to mass produce and place on your living room without compromises. So question is they said they were still "working on it" because they were trying to make it better or because they were fighting to achieve as much, or perhaps only half that in a mass produced variant.

Hint: It's probably the latter, the panel in question didn't have any glaring flaws other than the fact it was an LCD (uniformity wasn't perfect and it had worse motion than a plasma) and I don't think they're fighting that considering they aren't even the panel manufacturer.
 
I know about the AX800 series which is supposed to have this panel but that shit is edge lit. Contrast ratio will of course be around 4000-5000 because of this. They are not wizards. Until they can't at least match the 20000+ of the 60 plasma line I won't bother with it.
 
Lima said:
No. They are closing the last factory next month. That is when distributors can't order any of them. This info is straight from a Panasonic distributor.
Click to expand...
Your info is clearly faulty to an extent.

Production officially stopped December 31st, 2013, and Panasonic vowed to clear their stock until March/April or so, the factories might still be working, producing excedentary stock for professional plasma part repair and our own, but they sure as hell aren't actively producing stuff for sale otherwise stock wouldn't be quite clearly drying up.
Lima said:
I know about the AX800 series which is supposed to have this panel but that shit is edge lit. Contrast ratio will of course be around 4000-5000 because of this. They are not wizards. Until they can't at least match the 20000+ of the 60 plasma line I won't bother with it.
Click to expand...
Not a lot is known about it, but it's supposedly not Edge Lit, one of the marketing terms is BLS 2400 I think, which is back light scanning; others manufacturers are using back light scanning as a marketing synonym for full array this year.
 
lostinblue said:
Your info is clearly faulty to an extent.

Production officially stopped December 31st, 2013, and Panasonic vowed to clear their stock until March/April or so, the factories might still be working, producing excedentary stock for professional plasma part repair and our own, but they sure as hell aren't actively producing stuff for sale otherwise stock wouldn't be drying.

Not a lot is known about it, but it's supposedly not Edge Lit.
Click to expand...

It's not my information. It is coming from a German Panasonic distributor where you can order any and all sizes still.

The 58 is edge lit. I know that much. Read that the others are Full LED. Wouldn't really make any sense to produce an edge lit TV over 65".
 
^

-> http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

- "2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)"

Like you said it's was a prototype and not a lot was actually set on stone, they might have backtracked on their promises, that was the actual risk, but c'mon, your info is as good as mine at this point, both might be wrong or out of date.

The prototype was full array and the prototype was revealed to be what they wanted the AX800 to be - I don't think they can deliver it without caveats sure, but I think they can deliver full array. Vizio can do it and they're not too hot.
 
Hey guys, I'm getting my new TV next week. I haven't ordered it yet though, but just to be sure, do you approve of a Sony Bravia KDL-42W653A? I heard it's crazy good for gaming, but throw in an objection if you think there are better sets for the same price :-D
 
lostinblue said:
^

-> http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

- "2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)"

Like you said it's was a prototype and not a lot was actually set on stone, they might have backtracked on their promises, that was the actual risk, but c'mon, your info is as good as mine at this point, both might be wrong or out of date.

The prototype was full array and the prototype was revealed to be what they wanted the AX800 to be - I don't think they can deliver it without caveats sure, but I think they can deliver full array. Vizio can do it and they're not too hot.
Click to expand...

Seems there is a AX900 series too. Coming in the fall with Full LED. Would match with my information that the AX800 is (at least partly) edge lit.
 
I was looking at the current advertised Samsung LED TV's and I want to know, does the 120Hz etc. matter for gaming? I really want a 60 inch TV. I just need to know that if I game on it and some movies is the price justified for the Hz? Does it get turned off in game mode? If so then I could save a ton by getting one with the lowest Hz.

EDIT: I have owned a XBR4 40 inch. I don't even know its input lag but I am sure its not good!
 
lostinblue said:
^

-> http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

- "2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)"

Like you said it's was a prototype and not a lot was actually set on stone, they might have backtracked on their promises, that was the actual risk, but c'mon, your info is as good as mine at this point, both might be wrong or out of date.

The prototype was full array and the prototype was revealed to be what they wanted the AX800 to be - I don't think they can deliver it without caveats sure, but I think they can deliver full array. Vizio can do it and they're not too hot.
Click to expand...

Is that the prototype they showed at CES?
Is that the only size?
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
Is that the prototype they showed at CES?
Click to expand...
Supposedly yes.

But it wasn't easy to get them to commit to it, "work in progress" they said, but they ended up announcing a model name for it. I'm taking this detour because they were clearly being coy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the final model ended up being only a partial implementation due to that. But officially they're working on getting it out, this year.
See You Next Wednesday said:
Is that the only size?
Click to expand...
Announced yes, but I think they also have a 65" version in the pipeline.
 
DeVeAn said:
I was looking at the current advertised Samsung LED TV's and I want to know, does the 120Hz etc. matter for gaming? I really want a 60 inch TV. I just need to know that if I game on it and some movies is the price justified for the Hz? Does it get turned off in game mode? If so then I could save a ton by getting one with the lowest Hz.

EDIT: I have owned a XBR4 40 inch. I don't even know its input lag but I am sure its not good!
Click to expand...

Forget game mode on samsungs.....PC mode is where is at, you rename your hdmi input to PC and it reduces the latency further than game mode....it's a nifty feature that helps out a lot of my buddies who have samsungs. Game mode they hate it, PC mode feels godlike on newer samsung tv's
 
DJ Lushious said:
The VT60s, are they as solid in regards to not getting IR/burn-in as the Kuros? I am looking to size up from a Pro-111FD while I still can.
Click to expand...

I don't believe they are. I've see a lot more complaints in regards to image-retention from Panny models. Either way I made the jump this week from a Pro-101FD to a VT60. It's only been a few days but I haven't noticed any IR issues after gaming. Only complaint I have is the inferior black levels comparatively but I feel like the size jump was worth the trade-off.
 
Lima said:
No. Far from it actually. Largely depends on the panel you get.
Click to expand...

SoulClap said:
I don't believe they are. I've see a lot more complaints in regards to image-retention from Panny models. Either way I made the jump this week from a Pro-101FD to a VT60. It's only been a few days but I haven't noticed any IR issues after gaming. Only complaint I have is the inferior black levels comparatively but I feel like the size jump was worth the trade-off.
Click to expand...
Eek! Maybe I just need to hold off until the latest technology that comes around surpasses Plasma.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
A brief comment or two about the Sony W900A.

It only comes in a 55 inch size in North America. Those of you from foreign are lucky there, you get ones that are bigger. I was upgrading from a 52 inch set and getting 55 inches would have been pissing away money, the size difference was insignificant. So I ended up with a 65 inch VT60.

The W900A has a regular Game Mode with all motion enhancement turned off which has the usual LCD motion blur. The amazing new thing about the W900A is Motionflow Impulse, which strobes the panel at each refresh to remove sample-and-hold blur. It doesn't solve the problem of delay while the liquid crystals needing to twist and untwist, which means there is still some image smearing. It also creates 2 new problems. The first is that the brightness of the picture is drastically reduced and some people in bright rooms will find it hard to see what is going on as the panel is much dimmer. The second is that you now get to enjoy CRT-like flickering at 60 hz refresh, if you used to get a headache from a computer monitor refreshing at 60 hz you'll probably get one here.

The W900A is a pretty amazing gaming TV but let's not lose sight of it's problems, and it has some just like every other TV on the market. It's an edge-lit LED-LCD, which means there will be inevitable flashlighting, uneven uniformity, banding/DSE, and the usual problems that edge-lit LED-LCDs have.
Click to expand...

This is wrong. There is no blur in gaming mode. The panel itself is 240hz with no interpolation software needed.

DeVeAn said:
I was looking at the current advertised Samsung LED TV's and I want to know, does the 120Hz etc. matter for gaming? I really want a 60 inch TV. I just need to know that if I game on it and some movies is the price justified for the Hz? Does it get turned off in game mode? If so then I could save a ton by getting one with the lowest Hz.

EDIT: I have owned a XBR4 40 inch. I don't even know its input lag but I am sure its not good!
Click to expand...

120hz helps alot for gaming as long as the panel itself is 120hz and not induced by using interpolation software. If it's via software it will be turned off in gaming mode and you will stuck with a 60hz TV. A good TV like the one talked about above the w900a is a 240hz panel with no interpolation software, it's motionflow can turn it into a 960hz TV. Or you can go with a Plasma.
 
Lima said:
Not really. You can game for hours on a Plasma. You just have to live with IR for a few hours after.
Click to expand...

Which makes it subjective. Many people do not want the worry of IR, which is why most will choose an LCD/LED for gaming.

I've always said Plasma is best for movies, and LCD/LED for gaming.

Lima said:
Still only 300 lines without any interpolation so of course there is blur. Will probably never be fixed for LCD.
Click to expand...

If you want to be technical about such minuscule things, plasma also has blur.
 
Lima said:
Seems there is a AX900 series too. Coming in the fall with Full LED. Would match with my information that the AX800 is (at least partly) edge lit.
Click to expand...
Not listed yet.

This is all clearly a work in progress, I'll wait and see, but I tend to be in the middle, I don't believe it'll surpass or match plasma, but it's not gonna be 0.05 cd/m^2 either. something in the middle, probably, question being how low they can get.
DJ Lushious said:
The VT60s, are they as solid in regards to not getting IR/burn-in as the Kuros? I am looking to size up from a Pro-111FD while I still can.
Click to expand...
I don't know but mine was pretty good with IR from the moment it got out of the box.

Best plasma in that regard I ever had, but I never had a Kuro.

I think a lot of times the problem is people pulling configurations for the TV up and then seeing loads of TV with said settings as well as playing. It definitely has break-in period, it's pretty resilient but you ought to be respectful towards it. standard settings are respectable, abuse it for a movie with black bars with THX, sure. But don't go for 150 hours of abuse.

And out of the break-in period it's a freaking 4x4.
 
I read stories about people that had respected the break-in period and they still had some persistent IR after that. I think it's all about the panel. If you have bad luck, then no break-in period will save you from this. And even if you have a good panel IR can happen every now and then.
 
ViciousDS said:
Forget game mode on samsungs.....PC mode is where is at, you rename your hdmi input to PC and it reduces the latency further than game mode....it's a nifty feature that helps out a lot of my buddies who have samsungs. Game mode they hate it, PC mode feels godlike on newer samsung tv's
Click to expand...

I tried that when I got my TV (ES7000 55") and it was really blurry, I liked the response time but it was blurring the image and I couldn't find a way to fix it.
 
What's a good Panasonic or Sharp LED HDTV Japanese model? While I had excellent Sharp HDTVs for gaming and movies in Canada, those models were older and for North America. Since I'm basically restarting here in Japan now I'm looking for recommendations, especially from JapanGAF.

I'll need composite/component since I brought my Wii along as an accessory for my GBA and DS pokemon games. Lol

24"-32" is preferred.

I'm open to Sony as well, I would have went for a gaming monitor but the Wii is a no go with those. :/
 
caliblue15 said:
Which makes it subjective. Many people do not want the worry of IR, which is why most will choose an LCD/LED for gaming.

I've always said Plasma is best for movies, and LCD/LED for gaming.



If you want to be technical about such minuscule things, plasma also has blur.
Click to expand...
As an owner of a w900a, LCD blur is absolutely NOT a miniscule thing, and it's not even in the same league as plasmas in regard to motion resolution unless you enable backlight strobing. That said, I usually don't mind backlight strobing, so it doesn't bother me. But to try and say that LCD blur (which we should start calling sample and hold blurring, as the first wave of oled do it too) is miniscule is just blatantly false.
 
I know the Panasonic plasmas are priced to clear in the states but in Canada the prices are still msrp. Any good places to buy a 55VT60 for cheap in this land of ice?
 
ViciousDS said:
Forget game mode on samsungs.....PC mode is where is at, you rename your hdmi input to PC and it reduces the latency further than game mode....it's a nifty feature that helps out a lot of my buddies who have samsungs. Game mode they hate it, PC mode feels godlike on newer samsung tv's
Click to expand...

I said fuck it and got the W900A. Was $1726, holy shit I love that game mode is really a game mode. Everything feels instant and PQ is great even with everything off. Watched some DBZ on Animation setting and WOW the 240Hz makes everything surreal. Even the speakers are pretty damn good considering the TV being so thin. So far I am happy. Playing DKCTF and Strider at the moment.
 
big_z said:
I know the Panasonic plasmas are priced to clear in the states but in Canada the prices are still msrp. Any good places to buy a 55VT60 for cheap in this land of ice?
Click to expand...

That's false. Panasonic plasmas here in the states, if you can even find one, are not priced to move. They're not going for MSRP $3,000 for a 60" VT60, but the going rate is around $2k to $2,200, again that's if you can find one. Not exactly priced to move, especially when they were going for $1800 in December.
 
Lima said:
That is because break in does absolutely nothing to prevent IR or burn in. It is all down to the panel.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely true. The break in period is probably the most misunderstood thing about plasmas.

The break in period is just aging all of the phosphors evenly for x amount of time, usually the first 200-300 hours. It's only really necessary if you plan on getting it professionally calibrated. It has nothing to do with IR or Burn in prevention. People get IR after 10,000 + hours.
 
Lima said:
That is because break in does absolutely nothing to prevent IR or burn in. It is all down to the panel.
Click to expand...

What extensive break-in does is reduce the duration that IR persists. I've got almost 2,000 hours in my 65VT60 now and stuff that used to take days to get rid of is now gone in a few hours. I expect that as the pixels continue to wear, IR will continue to shorten in duration.
 
WHOAguitarninja said:
As an owner of a w900a, LCD blur is absolutely NOT a miniscule thing, and it's not even in the same league as plasmas in regard to motion resolution unless you enable backlight strobing. That said, I usually don't mind backlight strobing, so it doesn't bother me. But to try and say that LCD blur (which we should start calling sample and hold blurring, as the first wave of oled do it too) is miniscule is just blatantly false.
Click to expand...

I also own the w900a and have no blur/sample and hold on game mode. There will technically always be some blur as a limitation of LCD/LED technology, but with 240hz on game mode, there is no better LCD/LED TV that combats it more than the w900a.

Now if we were talking a TV that has 240hz interpolation and then in game mode the TV reverts to 60hz, then yes it is going to be a huge deal.

You can also use the strobing/Impulse mode in game mode, but I have yet to test the increase in latency if any, which would further reduce this if you have such issues.
 
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