Yeah, I don't know why anyone is jumping on RAD for being dishonest here. They came right out and said it.
The Order: 1886 is 30fps because 24fps doesn't "feel good", 60fps "changes aesthetic"
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Yeah, I don't know why anyone is jumping on RAD for being dishonest here. They came right out and said it.
Who said 60fps felt worse?
Not really, they wouldnt have mentioned the 24fps. They are talking about the actual FPS effecting the aesthetics of the game directly.
read that sentence one more time.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
No, he's clearly discussing the aesthetics of various frame rates, independent of other graphical features. He even compares the look of 60fps to documentaries and sci fi B movies.
viveks86
Member
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Or we thought our visual design was best suited for a 30fps game and our vision would not be as rich. Some of you guys over think and analyze and try to make something out of nothing.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
This is their second "artistic decision" that coincidentally lets them crank better graphics into each frame.
they couldn't hit 60 and keep the visual fidelity, for 60 to be achieved aesthetic would be changed, which is essentially what they said
where's the pr talk?
Dictator93
Member
It is just that they likened 60fps to being an appreciably worse experience. When any game ever looks better at 60 fps.
Comparing 60fps games to sci-fi B movies etc... seems disengenuous to the radical differences in how games and films are produced and consumed.
you need to read it one more time
Sleeping Lesson
Member
You're right, but the PR spin makes it sound as if, regardless of other graphical fidelity, they would lock it at 30 FPS. Or, for example, if the game was coming out on PC and they had a much higher power ceiling, they would still lock it to 30 FPS, which would be silly.
No they didn't... at all.... They said the aesthetic changes when a game is in 60fps, which it completely does. Not only does it feel different to play, it looks radically different, it's not filmic at all, it's very fast motion, similar to the soap opera effect, or having motion flow on your TV set, great for a lot of games, but if you want something to LOOK filmic, 60fps is not the way to go about it.
They made a decision that to maintain the filmic look, and to do that they went with 30fps. That's it.
Freeman
Banned
Better graphics is an artistic decision, there is no inconsistency here.
i didn't get that from it at all. he even praised 60 but then proceeded to say 60 would change the look of the game and they are going for a filmic presentation.
dude essentially said "we sacrificed 60 for artistic reasons".
now people are free to question their priorities but nowhere in that statement i see it even implied that if they could do 60 and keep the visual fidelity, that they wouldn't it.
People are choosing to interpret it like that, when really, what he says is pretty clear.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
This is really where this debate's divide lies. Personally, I can never imagine a game where 30 frames per second looks better than 60, all other things equal. "Filmic look" is a term that strikes me as a PR buzzword. But if you feel it looks better, who am I to tell you it doesn't?
CassidyIzABeast
Member
The game stops looking filmic as soon as the gameplay starts so I'm not so sure why that's their reasoning behind going with 30fps. Just keep it real and say you couldn't achieve those visuals at 60fps.
I would have preferred 60fps since gameplay>graphics. Im not looking for a movie experience in games.
But everything he said is absolutely true. Just look at this monstrosity. Yuck.
http://a.pomf.se/gylqai.webm
But everything he said is absolutely true. Just look at this monstrosity. Yuck.
http://a.pomf.se/gylqai.webm
Yeah it really does! This is super interesting to me, because the difference is so obvious to me, but I can understand if others can't see it, or simply disagree.
Filmic is definitely not a buzzword though, there's a reason every film is shot at 24fps, and also why watching The Hobbit at 48fps, or live sports at 60fps looks so wildly different, and can to some people, be very jarring.
"I can never imagine a game where 30 frames per second looks better than 60"
This is where it gets really interesting, because it's not about looking better or worse, it's about looking different.
Freeman
Banned
Maybe they are just assuming people are intelligent enough to understand that in no circumstance, for a game who tries to extract the most out of a console at least, they can arrive at 60fps without making any concessions.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
I think you're totally right about film. I would never want to watch The Hobbit (for example) in anything but 24 frames. But the issue I have it that it's not just different in games, it's an objective reduction in fidelity. Is it not the same to say you prefer a game at 720p as opposed to 1080p? Oh god, now that I said that I'll bet some people would say yes.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
I think 'Filmic Look' is on the verge of overtaking 'Teh Cloud' as the worst PR buzz-phrase this gen.
While there is definitely a reduction in fidelity, it also affects the aesthetic, and overall look of the game, which is where RAD's decision for The Order stems from. So while it is objectively worse in one way, it achieves the look they are going for that simply could not be done at a higher framerate.
And not really, because films don't look better at a lower resolution, and there's no standard for low resolution in film, but to that point, there's a reason some movies have very distinct colour grades to alter their picture (i.e. Green in the Matrix, Yellow in parts of Breaking Bad) it's not because they couldn't do it in regular colours, it's because they made a choice to convey their message in the best way. It's all about the aesthetic.
Also thanks for discussing this in such a cool manner
As for "Filmic" being a buzzword, aren't they usually just made up jargon words? If that's what you're insinuating you couldn't be more wrong.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
While there is definitely a reduction in fidelity, it also affects the aesthetic, and overall look of the game, which is where RAD's decision for The Order stems from. So while it is objectively worse in one way, it achieves the look they are going for that simply could not be done at a higher framerate.
And not really, because films don't look better at a lower resolution, and there's no standard for low resolution in film, but to that point, there's a reason some movies have very distinct colour grades to alter their picture (i.e. Green in the Matrix, Yellow in parts of Breaking Bad) it's not because they couldn't do it in regular colours, it's because they made a choice to convey their message in the best way. It's all about the aesthetic.
Also thanks for discussing this in such a cool manner
Of course! It would be childish to discuss it any other way.
You are right about resolution, it's not a fair comparison (although I'm almost certain I've seen people say they prefer 720p on this very forum).
I do prefer, for example, the film grain effect in Mass Effect 1/2, which is also a degradation in visual quality when you break it down, so I guess I don't have a leg to stand on. It would be easy for me to fall back on "YEAH BUT 60 FPS IS MORE RESPONSIVE" but that would really be evading what we're actually talking about.
When it comes down to it, I just prefer seeing games at 60 frames per second, whether I'm playing them or not. Maybe when The Order comes out I'll understand.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
You know how you settle this once and for all? Have the developer create an option within the settings that allows us the choose the frame rate. We both know that will never happen so we will have to take their word for it that this is the best way to play this game. I'd also like the ability to play it at 16:9 too but I guess that's another hot topic.
Absolutely agree! It's pretty rare here though is all, so it was worth pointing out.
Haha I haven't been here that long, but that wouldn't surprise me at all... Some people will say anything in defense.
Yeah absolutely, adding film grain is another way to achieve a filmic look, while technicaly degrading the visual quality. Luckily in Mass Effects case they added the option to turn it off for gaming purists
60 fps is definitely more responsive, and don't get me wrong, I'm a bit advocate for 60fps, and high frame rates where it's suitable (sports etc), but never if it goes against the wishes of the creative team. They have a vision, and they're making decisions based on that.Definitely
I personally can't wait!That would definitely settle everything, and it's getting into PC territory, but as you say, with a console game, this will never happen. That really is an ideal situation though, everyone is happy.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
Only genres that really benefits from 60fps, in my opinion, are:
Fighting games
Racing especially kart racing
Multiplayer for FPSs
Platformers
Everything else, 30 is okay.
Fighting games
Racing especially kart racing
Multiplayer for FPSs
Platformers
Everything else, 30 is okay.
MEsoJD
Banned
Everything benefits from 60fps... There are no drawbacks.
We are all old enough to understand the implication that the visual style would be different if they pushed for 60 fps. It is in the thread title: "60fps changes aesthetic"
You can say downgrade if you want. But it doesn't have to be like that
Is that what most films look like?
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I would pay double to see CG films at 60fps. The choppy animation has been really grating on me lately.
This would make sense in an infinite processing resource world...
This is very pleasant looking.
EmptySpace
Banned
there's always a tradeoff.
I assume/hope that was specifically about for gameplay since he seemed to recognize the graphical quality/fps tradeoff, and he's right so long as a game isn't sped up or goes all weird, but that can go right there with "processing resources" as a real obstacle to being able to push 60 fps.
But yeah, in reality you're juggling resources and have to make the right calls for your game. And while I won't hold it against them going for 30 over 60 I do get annoyed when largely linear or otherwise undemanding games fail to reliably be 30 or at least FEEL good to play so they can get some fancy graphical crap in. Doubly so if they also compromise the resolution in a way that involves scaling, not black borders.
My point is, saying there are "no drawbacks" ignores visuals. 30fps can feel perfectly ok. I agree with you, locked frame-rate is what should be focused on. If a game wants to look as pretty as possible and is not a really super twitch genre, 30fps may be a perfectly viable decision (as is the case for The Order, or Infamous).
But, it is completely disingenuous to insinuate that nothing suffers from 60fps, because i guarantee you graphical fidelity or features absolutely have to be axed to literally double frame output.
The problem is that so many people have an all or nothing attitude about it.
This is also why i do not understand why people bother talking about films here. Films don't have the baggage of real-time rendering overhead to deal with, upping the frame rate will only ever affect the frame rate. Upping the frame-rate on a game has real consequences for how that game actually looks on a still frame to still frame basis.
cobragt4001
Banned
If the order could run at 60fps, which is impossible with the current hardware, it would look absolutely amazing. 30fps or 24fps might work for movies seeing as most movies don't rely on computer generated graphics and if they do then it's done in a way far beyond what consoles and gaming pc's are capable of in real time. Videogames look like videogames and 60fps doesn't make the game look cheap or weird but so much better when you're looking at it on screen. The developers need to be honest and admit that 60fps isn't achievable with the hardware instead of coming up with this lame filmic excuse that doesn't fit into gaming. I just hope the order isn't a cutscene game like Beyond Two Souls.
cobragt4001
Banned
This is why more developers should shoot for 60fps. It's simply amazing how smooth it is compared to 30fps and I dare say that's more of a filmic experience than 30fps.
Ironically, in the exact article you're referencing it says, quote.
'Then, on top of it, I don't know of any other games that are gonna look like our game in real-time with no pre-rendered movies, with all the stuff that's going on lighting-wise, and run at 60. I think that's probably the thing that most people underestimate is [that] to make a game look like thisthe way that they're lit, the number of directional lights that we have We don't have a game where you're just outside in sunlight, so there's one light. We have candles flickering, fires, then characters have lights on them. So [to make] all those lights [work] with this fidelity means, I think, until the end of this system most people won't have any clue how to make that run 60 and look like this."
The Spoony Hou
Member
If a game is 30fps because of fancy graphics, I can understand.
If it's 30fps just for the hell of it, it's pure stupidity.
If it's 30fps just for the hell of it, it's pure stupidity.
RustyNails
Member
Anyone remember this 60fps game for PS1 where you drive around as a cop? I bought it, and couldn't play it for more than 10 minutes due to nausea.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
Graphics is not synonymous with art.
Some game with amazing art doesn't have to have powerful specs to achieve it.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
I play cinematic games at 60fps all the time, doesn't feel "soap opera" to me. Feels excellent.
I really don't have any issue with console devs targeting 30fps for better graphics. Consoles have their pros and cons, thats a con, no problem. But the idea I've been seeing tossed around this past year that 30fps is better in some cases because its more "cinematic" is just absurd to me. Maybe for movies, sure, but these are games, not movies. Framerate has nothing to do with the look of a game and everything to do with responsiveness, and there is only "enough" responsiveness (30fps) or "better" responsiveness (60+fps), thats all there is to it. If you think a game should be 30fps to be more cinematic, you might consider to go make a movie instead of a game because you're treating it like one. They are fundamentally different.
Edit: I don't really hold it against devs though. I suspect most of the time its publisher PR trying to spin things, as usual. I shake my head only in their general direction.
I really don't have any issue with console devs targeting 30fps for better graphics. Consoles have their pros and cons, thats a con, no problem. But the idea I've been seeing tossed around this past year that 30fps is better in some cases because its more "cinematic" is just absurd to me. Maybe for movies, sure, but these are games, not movies. Framerate has nothing to do with the look of a game and everything to do with responsiveness, and there is only "enough" responsiveness (30fps) or "better" responsiveness (60+fps), thats all there is to it. If you think a game should be 30fps to be more cinematic, you might consider to go make a movie instead of a game because you're treating it like one. They are fundamentally different.
Edit: I don't really hold it against devs though. I suspect most of the time its publisher PR trying to spin things, as usual. I shake my head only in their general direction.
cobragt4001
Banned
I read the article so no need to quote it but thank you. Until I see gameplay that can achieve 60fps I'm not buying it. I doubt the PS4 could run this game at 60fps with the level of detail that the game has and I also question the scale of this game. Are levels gonna be the size of a first floor for a apartment complex? Their reasoning doesn't click with me because while the game honestly is the best looking game next to Star Citizen and Witcher 3 in terms of realistic graphics, it would look absolutely breathtaking running at 60fps, not 30fps. The game still looks like a game, not a real life movie so this 30fps vs 60fps for the sake of filmic experience is silly. Matter of a fact it would look more filmic running at 60fps.
This is supposed to look bad?