MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Why do women design low cut tops, super mini skirts and/or transparent clothing for fashion shows?
Why are there still so many white men in video games
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Yes dude, you are critizing/reviewing games. So does Sarkeesian and all the others. The only difference is, they are doing it with a female perspective. Because of that simple difference, they are under attack. If they critize a game, people instantly attack them and demand to make it better. To make a better game. Noone is demanding that from you. As a critic, just like them. Because you are a male.
The fact is, when the Japanese watch anime, they see themselves... not a bunch of white people running around. If you actually knew any Japanese people, you'd probably know this.
njean777
Member
I believe most that do have a problem is when it is brought up for no reason. It starts to look like agenda pushing to some, and that can get really grating.
Now I am not saying you cannot ask these questions mind you, but when it becomes seen as agenda pushing, it is going to piss people off.
Alfred Saxon
Banned
Less White males in video games, movies music, sports and positions of power is the future don't resist thats racist. Just look at the wonderful world of the NBA and how that all worked out diversity is our strength.
RockTurtle
Member
I would try and bring up traditional manga drawing techniques and artistic tendencies, but i can see you want to apply your western views on race and appearance to an ethnocentric nation. shit, i wouldn't want to live in your white and black world (double entendre)
Alright, what would you consider an appropriate reason to bring up the topic?
Yes, Sarkeesian has an agenda. Like Gaf had the #NoDRM agenda, she has the agenda of better representation of gamers. Both are pretty fine pro-consumer stances.
pants
Member
this isnt true mate
After sleeping on this topic, I also wonder if pieces like this are precisely the type of piece that pushes on just the right emotive buttons to push the right people into such action?
If you're a young person, perhaps this video is just the catalyst needed to get started on this process? Something for the "bootstraps" crowd to think about.
Incidentally, it's just that gaming is so insanely diverse at this point that I can't help but feel offended by the piece. Not a single game I've played recently has lacked playable female characters. Granted, none of those games are anything like the stuff from the piece, but that's exactly what I'm talking about.
I don't think it's very helpful to focus on everything but AAA games and say, "look at all of the strong female leads!" But also as someone who grew up on western games, especially RPGs rooted in DnD (Elder Scrolls, MUDs, or direct DnD-based games like BG), playing females has always been an option. Lumping my experiences and the games that my personal community plays in with everything else seems equally as disingenuous and frankly offensive.
njean777
Member
When there is clearly a racist, mysoginistic, or sexualized character in a game would be a good time. I never said I see it as agenda pushing, I am just giving a reason as to why people get pissed off.
One is stepping into social change, which is why it is seen as a problem by some. That is how the world is unfortunately.
wonderdung
Member
What Anita does is not reviewing games, she's critiquing trends across the entire industry. And people tend to disagree with the idea, not her gender. You can see when males writing for RPS or whatever say the same things.
Granted, the aggressive manner in which people disagree with her is often related to her gender, and indefensible.
Still, when you are critiquing every game with no indication of balance or no hint of what you'd find acceptable, then "go make a game" seems like a perfectly good response. If you aren't pleased by anyone else's work, go do some of your own. Show us how it's done.
It is easier now, in 2014, to make a game than it has ever been in history. It doesn't have to be AAA. Simple flash games like Pandemic 2 are great. As developers we've all done the work to get into the industry so we could make games. We've spent years of our lives... you'd rather tear us down than spend a few weekends on one?
What part? That it's rather niche? I'm not agreeing with him that they look white, I'm just trying to point out that it wouldn't be logical for Japanese to only draw white characters.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
How many seas must a white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand?
Whoever said this is a clown.
Alfred Saxon
Banned
Blonde hair ,blue eyes ,White skin and Caucasian facial features created by a Japanese artist is of course a Japanese person anyone saying otherwise is obviously racist.
Tear us down? Seriously? Dude, we are discussing a Tweet by her. She doesn't have to say what she likes. But she does, on Twitter. And yes, she is mainly critizing. That is what critics do. That is what I said.
If you see the demand of representation of gamers as a problem, you are the problem. Unfortunately.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
i want a black batman
im serious too
im serious too
feel free to make black panther jokes here
flatearthpandas
Member
Want me to step outside and snap a picture of the sky so I can prove it's blue while I'm at it?
faceless007
Member
I know posters like this aren't long for the thread but I just want to make the larger point of how immature and petty it is to make posts like this.
There are lots of aspects of games that I find trivial or dumb and don't really understand how they can erupt into thousand-post threads with lots of heated discussion and, dare I say, "faux" outrage (even though it isn't really) by gamers. Resolution-gate is an example. Watch Dogs trailer-gate is an example. Titanfall's player limit is an example. Personally I don't really understand all the fuss about the topics like those. But I didn't go into the threads about them just to ask why the threads exist or whether we really need this much discussion about the topic, and it's not just because doing so is a bannable offense. It's because I'm mature enough to accept that sometimes some people want to have a discussion about something that doesn't interest me and that's OK and it would be dickish of me to go into the thread with something like "WHY U NERDS CARE SO MUCH LOLOLOL" as if that were a valuable contribution in the slightest.
And the vast majority of the time, pretty much everyone understands that implicitly and doesn't feel the need to thread-shit -- except when it comes to the broad subjects of minority representation/sexism/racism in games. For some reason when it comes to these subjects, we get a much higher quota of posters who get visibly defensive and frustrated about the mere existence of threads about it and think it would be a good idea to let everyone know that they personally don't think the topic is worth discussing. Some of them go so far as to try to tell others not to talk about it and outright say the discussion shouldn't exist. Which is stupid. No one cares that you don't care. The rational response to not giving a shit about a subject is to not click on the thread about the subject, rather than to click on the thread and write a post telling people that you don't give a shit about the subject. Most of us follow this principle implicitly, but for some reason these topics make a lot of people forget it and gets them demonstrably upset that the discussion is happening at all and they want to express their apathy or, even funnier, makes them think they have a right to dictate what should and shouldn't be fodder for discussion.
I don't really know why this happens so much with these topics but it's funny to watch.
The idea that AAA games aren't already designed by committee seems both optimistic and incredibly naive.
And if it is all about their pure creative vision, why do so many of the visions look so similar?
pants
Member
The Japanese drawing white people thing. I seem to have misunderstood and thought you believed that.
Like I've said, I don't think it's stayed static, I think it's backslid. We used to have boys just on the border between Japanese of a certain prewar social class and white, as the lead character but accompanied by playable girls who could also be imprinted upon, who fight against symbolically puffed-up versions of conflicts that both boys and girls face. (Even before that, we also used to have a lot more "you control the spaceship or the cartoon animal".) This had its problems still - the girls were usually limited to a subset of roles, and the hero's vague race could be white or Japanese or middle-eastern but definitely not black - but the treatment of characters as characters at least left some room for finding shared identity.
Now we have highly-detailed, specifically American or western European white men, as the one character you're supposed to step directly into the shoes of and live viscerally as, who are facing conflicts (often real-world conflicts) that are primarily or solely the concern of white men.
A CoD or Battlefield where you go and fight in Definitely Not Iraq is going to have a way narrower appeal than Super Mario, even though the protag of each is an adult white man with bad hair. White males are the only demographic that tend to think going and fighting in Iraq was a good idea, so you're going beyond "hero doesn't look like me" to "entire core plot is based on putting me in a situation that I don't want to be in".
Uh, most Japanese have light skin. What exactly makes anime facial features 'Caucasian"? The large eyes?
No human being has eyes anywhere near that large, and there are other ethnic groups that have larger eyes than Caucasians.
Blond hair in anime is SOMETIMES used to identify western (white) characters, but most of the time multi-colored hair and eyes is just a method for distinguishing between different characters (who might otherwise appear quite similar).
MightyHedgehog
Member
Yes. Although I find it more disappointing and even depressing than funny.
UnblessedSoul
Member
Why does it matter so much? I wouldn't put too much emphasis on their ethnicity
No problem. I worded it a bit wrong
It's not really just an issue of white writers doing more or thinking differently, most of them fundamentally can't do a good job with that and it's not really the mark of a bad writer. Writers of color generally will be able to write white characters, because they've been inundated with white culture from birth and they can write characters from their own community best because of real world experiences and then depending on their exposure to other communities they'll be able to write one or more types of other minority characters in a deep and authentic way. However, because cultures are so isolated in real life beyond superficial interaction white people generally can't be relied upon to be able to consistently tell deep authentic stories about other cultures, because their life experiences with these cultures tend to be pretty superficial. This is another byproduct of how characters are and have been represented in games/tv etc.
That it's been scientifically proven that most white people can't tell one black person from another due to a lack of familiarity is a cultural bellwether for this FACT. This is probably true with other types of non-whites as well. With this in mind a big part of the problem is that 98% or the paid writers in games and other creative fields are white.
As far as the independent games scene is concerned it's definitely coming along, but part of the problem is that the audience is so brainwashed at this point that it's not really going to matter much in the short term. I would put money on the idea that if Starhawk had a white protagonist and nothing else about the game changed it would have sold 10x the volume it did...and that's just pathetic. Another part of the problem is adequate access to the resources necessary and another problem is how far down in Maslow's hierarchy game development fits in for many disadvantaged communities, for most it's going to be at the peak of the hierarchy while they're constantly caught in the in the bottom of the pyramid.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Have you ever seen a discussion around clearly sexualized characters? The dialogue is exactly the same, maybe even worse.
njean777
Member
Starhawk was not hated because of the character, it was a flawed game. I never once heard anybody complain about the character.
The biggest reason it failed is because it set out to be better than warHawk, and it was terrible compared to warHawk. When the player base you are trying to appeal to hates the game, than it is going to fail.
Also to take this argument even further, how do you explain GTA:San Andreas? That game had a black lead character and sold millions...
Lol what the fuck is wrong that so many people keep making posts like this
If they are already designing by committee they stopped being good developers long ago.
As to why visions looks similar, it might be because the developers draw their inspiration from similar things, or perhaps are drawing from the same 'wellspring' of creativity.
Which is one reason why it's so important for minorities/women to get into indie development. They have a different perspective, might have different inspirations, and can (hopefully) bring their own unique take to a genre.
Because some people like diversity in their entertainment?
People have a right to want things. Just like everyone else can ask for better gameplay, graphics, writing, etc.
Why the line get's drawn at being inclusive is beyond me.
This issue comes up so often and as a non-white male, it's something I'd like to see asked of devs. I think companies like EA and Bethesda do it better. Put a white guy in the promo stuff and I guess that's okay. But at least games like Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls allow you to make your character look the way you want. Most games should work like that.
Hypereides
Gold Member
Imo it's a norm/standard tuned by the industry. This adjustment is customized after society demographic blueprints and possibly linked to social construction.
Apparently those people who are in favor of this motion are a minority, therefore it largely remains unchanged.
Its not necessarily sexism, but just what sells more copies. Although that may sound like a paradox within itself.
If there are any rebelious developers out there in the industry who acknowledge this as a problem, they should begin producing software to counter this standard and reset it.
Apparently those people who are in favor of this motion are a minority, therefore it largely remains unchanged.
Its not necessarily sexism, but just what sells more copies. Although that may sound like a paradox within itself.
If there are any rebelious developers out there in the industry who acknowledge this as a problem, they should begin producing software to counter this standard and reset it.
Porcile
Member
While I don't pretend the know the complete design process of AAA western blockbuster videogame, I'd imagine if in those early creative workshops if there's a group of 7 individuals; four of whom are white male, two of whom are black males and the other one is a white female, the design process is automatically going to be biased towards the majority group. Of course this is based on conjecture, but I'd imagine the ratio of a gender and race within a group of designers is not that far off from that scenario. As others have pointed, videogames are not auteur driven, or based on the ideas of just two people, the entire creative process is spread across many, the majority of which will be 30-something, white males.
If it is easier for you, to relate to a egg-throwing Yoshi, a bloodthirsty greek god or a Lego Batman than to a living, breathing human, you might have a problem.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Market research data.
wonderdung
Member
We're not discussing a tweet by her, we're discussing her capacity as a game reviewer. She's not. No, she doesn't have to say what she likes, but it would help if she wants to be taken seriously.
Representation isn't a problem. I think most studies have shown that male gamers don't really care whether their in-game avatars represent them. But the demand is indeed a problem, because it's always unaccompanied by any logical standard by which to judge progress.
Last year there were no women presenting at the Sony reveal. Result: complaint. This E3 there were 5 women presenters at the major conferences. Result: complaint. By the percentage of women presenters metric, didn't we improve? Is the issue that the rate we're improving at not acceptable? How do we know when to stop? This is valuable information and never seems to be part of the complaint.
At this point we are discussing an offhand tweet and not any serious argumentation, but it's frustrating. If you're not opposed to progress in this area, but progress is only met with disdain... what's the incentive to continue?
UnblessedSoul
Member
There is plenty of diversity in games, I tend to want different character persona types, whether they are black asian or white doesn't bother me, what does bother me is the typical association there usually is in these racial types, that is a much bigger issue over what their skin colour is.
Yeah, unfortunately I don't have the luxury of hating games because of fanservice, even if I do despise it. If I did, I'd lose access to a ton of games in genres I enjoy. Funny how I don't have this problem with movies and books.
It's simply untrue that there is lot's of diversity in gaming. Does it exist? Yes. Has the medium made some progress? absolutely. But the industry still struggles with female, LGBT and minority representation, especially in big AAA titles.
I think one of the core complaints about video games SHOULD always be lack of representation. These are consumers you're not being inclusive of.
Steve Youngblood
Member
They're also free to voice opinions or concerns in addition to deciding whether or not to purchase the title.
flatearthpandas
Member
Nice job knocking down that straw man. Got any other non sequiturs you want to try out while you have my attention for the last time in this thread? Or do you want to try again with something thoughtful and possibly relevant?
Portugeezer
Member
Male characters seem a reasonable choice for those games.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Good, If someone is pissed off about this topic then it is a trailblazing topic, its important. However as many as those who lash against, there are just as many who praise.
I'd tell anyone who wants change to ignore the naysayers and keep on voicing.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Best post I've read all week here, bar none. Sadly most people who call attention to these things aren't leaders, it's more like they say these things to try and find a leader to step up and act on their wishes. The problem there is that person will most always not be 100% what you envision, or even 50%.
It's like having your cake and eating it, too. At some point you just have to realize "well, I'm really passionate about this thing and there isn't anyone out there doing it like I think it aught to be done,...I should start acting on my ideas and put up or shut up." Ideas are nothing special in and of themselves; everyone has ideas but at the end of the day it's only those who make them a reality that are worth remembering and get the credit.
If you take issue to lack of diversity in the gaming industry, you can talk about it all you want but by simply being a soapbox, all you're really doing is acting out a role on the sidelines. Act on that passion and get into the industry at its source. Otherwise it's almost like talking to a (slightly porous) brick wall.
What an utterly bullshit statistic.
The problem is that the people most vocal about these things seem to not understand the basic economics/market forces at work, and that this isn't a hivemind- it's a bunch of micro-decisions by separate parties based on the same market outlook. Each one looks at the market research, and they all keep making the same profit-maximizing decision. How many times a year do we hear about studios being shut down, layoffs occurring, buyouts happening? When one underperforming game can lead to a 100+ job losses, why bother taking the risk? In the male-dominated direct comics market, new female-led superhero titles struggle on the market repeatedly in ways the male ones don't. I can't imagine that the dudebro action-shooter market is all that different, given the demographic overlap. You can't blame them for making the choices that they think will make the most money and let their team survive to live another day.
And that's the thing- the loudest complaints are about the genres that women are almost certainly least likely to play. Non-Nintendo AAA action console titles. We know that men and women don't have the same aggregate gaming behaviors, and that women are far more active in the social/mobile sphere. They play games, but the games they play do look different. Take SimCity Social's Fireman. If that's not female-targeted character design, I don't know what is. The Facebook/Mobile space is heavily female. It makes an enormous amount of money. But those games don't count. Those games aren't serious. They have as much chance of a GOTY title as a comedy does at the Oscars. And so they're ignored, because they're not offering the experience that is important to serious gamers.
We know the genders behave differently. We have a tremendous amount of research that strongly indicates that there are far more than minor differences between us other than our bodies and hormones. And so we end up preferring different activities, different experiences, and yes, different games. And so research gets done, and demographic targeting rears its head. You can see this in other industries, like TV, quite plainly. TV networks now explicitly target demographics in order to sell their exposure to advertisers. ABC and Lifetime actively target women across their entire programming lineup. Spike TV? Young guys. CBS? Older people!. Fox News? Gullible old people. Products are now tailored specifically across age and gender lines. Games are no different. In the comics example above, I specified Superhero comics. Girls do buy a lot of Comics/Graphic Novels/Manga- it just tends to be other genres.
That's something that I think is a valid concern about this criticism- are these people actually consumers, or are they simply complaining from the sidelines, without any plans to invest their money into future titles? The producer for the DoA games mentioned in an interview that they always receive the most criticism about their Bikini DLC costumes, with people loudly complaining and asking for more "sensible" options. But at the end of the day, the Bikinis are always the ones that end up selling the best. DoA is a game series pretty blatantly based on pandering to the "male gaze market", with its emphasis on boob physics. Given that its fundamentally a cheesecake game, it doesn't really make much sense for them to back off the Bikinis, since they know exactly what demographic they're going after.
But girls do buy these games in these male-dominated genres, watch these Spike TV shows, buy these superhero comics, even though they may not do them at the same rate the guys do. And so I'd point to where progress really is obviously being made- to how they're depicted. If you compare MK9's female character models, based on mid-90s nostalgia, to the new ones in MKX, you notice the difference immediately. The new MKX characters aren't being portrayed in a sexualized manner. They might be showing skin, or have tight clothing, but none of it comes across as pandering to the male audience's sex drive. Slowly, we're seeing that sort of "Duke Nukem"-style pandering move its way further and further outward towards the margins of the industry. Because they realize it's a turn-off to female players. Because they don't want people to be embarrassed to play a game in front of their family members, or for a parent or aunt/uncle to leave their game on the selves in favor of another one. Just like with Booth Babes, they've realized that kind of overt appeal to sexuality made a lot of people, male and female, feel uncomfortable/unwelcome, and so it's slowly been getting toned down. Those games directly appealing to that market for female sexuality will always be there, of course. They're just not the games you want at the center of the industry, and the industry's definitely been figuring that out.
And basic business economics is why we see Nintendo's push for much more female representation in their upcoming titles. The 3DS is unique among today's major consoles in that it's a nearly even 50/50 split between male and female owners. Nintendo's also primarily targeting young kids, and before the ages of 10-12, when adolescence and its effects set in, kids are much much more similar in terms of interests and habits than they are as teenagers and adults. Given these things, it makes perfect sense for them to actively start going for a much more gender-balanced slate of protagonists, because it expands their market reach and possibly might build a future market for them later as these kids age.
Can you provide examples of these games where it's a reasonable choice?
I'm not seeing how games like Assassins Creed, shooters(COD, Battlefield, Halo, etc), Apocalyptic games(Walking Dead, Dead Rising, etc) , Final Fantasy(granted they've been a lot better about diversity than most) and many other games need to have white male leads.
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