Fighting Games Weekly | June 30 - July 6 | Judge, Juri & EGsecutioner

Onemic said:
...but Blanka is worse than Oni though....

If you're looking for a high tier character Blanka is definitely very low on that list. He just does well online.
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Yeah, I know Blanka sucks. There just aren't any other cool looking characters. Well, there are a few, but I 100% know I couldn't handle their style, like Decapre and Hakan.

I just want three things:
Fun
Strong
Cool

Oni is cool at least. Blanka is the only character I have found that is fun and cool. :p
 
Karsticles said:
Nah, I have always thought this, and I benefit a ton from invincibility with both Oni and Blanks.

Just watch videos of players like Daigo walking up to people and DPing them on oki. What is that if not random?
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The opponent expects a throw so you pick a move with a lot of invincibility. It's a hard read.
 
Karsticles said:
Nah, I have always thought this, and I benefit a ton from invincibility with both Oni and Blanks.

Just watch videos of players like Daigo walking up to people and DPing them on oki. What is that if not random?
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Isn't that what the professionals call "le read"?
 
Vice said:
The opponent expects a throw so you pick a move with a lot of invincibility. It's a hard read.
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"Hard read" is just a way of making randomness sound strategic. I make these "reads" all the time. You get a gut feeling and go with it based on your opponent's past actions. AKA a guess, which is random. The more yomi a fighting game had, the worse it is. Neutrals with little yomi produce the best games, like Smash. Everything safe, mostly about execution and reaction time.

JeTmAn81 said:
Isn't that what the professionals call "le read"?
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You don't need to tell a Dormammu main about reads sir!
 
Karsticles said:
Nah, I have always thought this, and I benefit a ton from invincibility with both Oni and Blanks.

Just watch videos of players like Daigo walking up to people and DPing them on oki. What is that if not random?
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I won't pretend to know what Daigo's thinking, because really I have no damn clue, but just because you can use a move randomly doesn't make the move itself, or it's invincibility frames, random. As a player you know the invincibility is there, you generally know or have an idea of how long the invincibility lasts, you know what are the situations in which your opponent is most likely to throw them out, and you know how to not get hit by them. Where's the randomness? Unless you're saying that these moves encourage random play by users? Or maybe that it's random which moves get to have invincibility frames over others?

Edit: Hakan is totally fun, Karst! And I'd argue he's pretty damn strong too!
 
Karsticles said:
"Hard read" is just a way of making randomness sound strategic. I make these "reads" all the time. You get a gut feeling and go with it based on your opponent's past actions. AKA a guess, which is random. The more yomi a fighting game had, the worse it is. Neutrals with little yomi produce the best games, like Smash. Everything safe, mostly about execution and reaction time.
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Do you really think Daigo spends a lot of his time guessing? There are always elements of randomness, but being random more than rarely will get you killed. Unless you're Gandhi.
 
El Sloth said:
I won't pretend to know what Daigo's thinking, because really I have no damn clue, but just because you can use a move randomly doesn't make the move itself, or it's invincibility frames, random. As a player you know the invincibility is there, you generally know or have an idea of how long the invincibility lasts, you know what are the situations in which your opponent is most likely to throw them out, and you know how to not get hit by them. Where's the randomness? Unless you're saying that these moves encourage random play by users? Or maybe that it's random which moves get to have invincibility frames over others?
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There are three parts to the neutral, I wager:
Yomi
Execution
Reaction Time

The more a game leans on the first category, the more random it is due to guesswork.

JeTmAn81 said:
Do you really think Daigo spends a lot of his time guessing? There are always elements of randomness, but being random more than rarely will get you killed. Unless you're Gandhi.
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Daigo plays Ryu, I would guess, because Ryu does a lot of work on solid and slow play. Then there are characters like Seth, which succeed primarily through reads. I used the DP example because the video was posted recently.
 
Karsticles said:
Yeah, I know Blanka sucks. There just aren't any other cool looking characters. Well, there are a few, but I 100% know I couldn't handle their style, like Decapre and Hakan.

I just want three things:
Fun
Strong
Cool

Oni is cool at least. Blanka is the only character I have found that is fun and cool. :p
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Evil Ryu?

I'd say stick with Oni. Tbh, based on your play with him I think the reason he's not working as much for you is because he plays a very grounded game, which you don't really seem to play, you also dont get the most out of his punishes. To get the most out of him you have to make the most out of his normals, learn his FADC combos and punish people whenever possible. He's mainly a punish character as his mixup isn't that strong and his pressure is sorta limited, plus he can't do much to people when they're crouching.

Have you tried Evil Ryu? I would think he'd fall under your criteria of cool at the very least.

Karsticles said:
There are three parts to the neutral, I wager:
Yomi
Execution
Reaction Time

The more a game leans on the first category, the more random it is due to guesswork.
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I don't know how SF could ever be considered more random than Marvel, a game where you can get killed off of one random hit confirmed into a combo, into very strong Oki mixups afterward. I'd take a few invincible DP's to the face over that
 
Karsticles said:
"Hard read" is just a way of making randomness sound strategic. I make these "reads" all the time. You get a gut feeling and go with it based on your opponent's past actions. AKA a guess, which is random. The more yomi a fighting game had, the worse it is. Neutrals with little yomi produce the best games, like Smash. Everything safe, mostly about execution and reaction time.


!
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It's a safe guess the majority of the time thoUgh thanks to FADC.

You could play Sim, Rose or Guile if you want to focus less on the random elements.
 
kirblar said:
Then why play a game if you want it to be based on quantifiable factors?
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Do you mean any game, or SF? If the former, the best games, like chess, are entirely non-random and calculable. If the latter, I answered that above.

Onemic said:
Evil Ryu?

I'd say stick with Oni. Tbh, based on your play with him I think the reason he's not working as much for you is because he plays a very grounded game, which you don't really seem to play, you also dont get the most out of his punishes. To get the most out of him you have to make the most out of his normals, learn his FADC combos and punish people whenever possible. He's mainly a punish character as his mixup isn't that strong and his pressure is sorta limited, plus he can't do much to people when they're crouching.

Have you tried Evil Ryu? I would think he'd fall under your criteria of cool at the very least.
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I haven't tried Evil Ryu. He look okay...the model is in the uncanny valley for me and is disturbing.
 
Karsticles said:
"Hard read" is just a way of making randomness sound strategic. I make these "reads" all the time. You get a gut feeling and go with it based on your opponent's past actions. AKA a guess, which is random. The more yomi a fighting game had, the worse it is. Neutrals with little yomi produce the best games, like Smash. Everything safe, mostly about execution and reaction time.
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Let's play some poker -- that game is even more random than SF4 and MvC3 combined!!!

Frankly, the fighting game you describe to me as "good" sounds boring as shit, and would be a game that the better player wins 100% of the time (which is not a good thing for its commercial viability). I think you underestimate how much prediction there is in SSBM, as well -- specially, you need to read your opponent's movement, and judge where they're going and what they're doing. While it's a "guess" in the end, it's one that involves a lot of information about the both the game and the player -- taking that out would make the game much less interesting.
 
Karsticles said:
Yeah, I know Blanka sucks. There just aren't any other cool looking characters. Well, there are a few, but I 100% know I couldn't handle their style, like Decapre and Hakan.

I just want three things:
Fun
Strong
Cool

Oni is cool at least. Blanka is the only character I have found that is fun and cool. :p
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yun rhymes with fun.

play sakura. she's hella dumb
 
Vice said:
It's a safe guess the majority of the time thoUgh thanks to FADC.

You could play Sim, Rose or Guile if you want to focus less on the random elements.
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Sim is ridiculously random. We are talking about a character whose limbs can be hit. I got my c.HP DPed today even. I do it to Sims all the time - frustrating for them, I imagine.

I do like Guile, but the charge crap is irritating. I have never tried Rose, but I am trying to get away from fireballs in general. They are not mechanically strong in this game.

JeTmAn81 said:
Akuma is strong and fun and cool. If he was any cooler, he'd be skateboarding to a dubstep soundtrack.
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A Dante player would know all about that kind of cool!

I have tried but I suck so bad with him. :( He was actually my first character. I am great at playing his fireball game, but I just never mastered the rushdown aspect. I might give him another shot, but tonight I am done.
 
Is watching VODs on Twitch a miserable experience for anyone else? Nonstop buffering here. And I usually don't have major problems just watching streams.
 
I just beat spooky's evil ryu online. Didn't feel too great because all I did was hit the unblockable each round and got a perfect in one of them. :(
 
Karsticles said:
Sim is ridiculously random. We are talking about a character whose limbs can be hit. I got my c.HP DPed today even. I do it to Sims all the time - frustrating for them, I imagine.

I do like Guile, but the charge crap is irritating. I have never tried Rose, but I am trying to get away from fireballs in general. They are not mechanically strong in this game.
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Rose doesnt depend on her fireballs in the way Guile or Ryu do, since they're pretty bad. She's more about being mid-range with pokes.
 
Karsticles said:
Yeah, I know Blanka sucks. There just aren't any other cool looking characters. Well, there are a few, but I 100% know I couldn't handle their style, like Decapre and Hakan.

I just want three things:
Fun
Strong
Cool

Oni is cool at least. Blanka is the only character I have found that is fun and cool. :p
Click to expand...

Blanka is bad enough where he'll cease to be fun once you start playing against strong enough players. Take this from someone who played him from vanilla SF4 to when marvel came out- don't invest in the character.
 
Karsticles said:
There is nothing else to play, and I am tired of Marvel's netcode. I want to like it, but it is so hard. I will pick Skullgirls up full time once Eliza releases, and I have GGXrd and P4U to look forward to.
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If you're going to play a game you don't like, might as well play BB instead. Apparently the Era of Anime is upon us, so it's best to prepare while you still can.
 
Karsticles said:
There are three parts to the neutral, I wager:
Yomi
Execution
Reaction Time

The more a game leans on the first category, the more random it is due to guesswork.
Click to expand...
What about the act of measuring one's space to an opponent and trying to inch themselves into their best range while trying to stay out of their opponents range? Would you just file that under Yomi?

Well, isn't it your job as the player to try and mitigate that guesswork? To impose your will on the other player by subtlety, and not so subtlety, making them move and act as want you them to? Whether it is by training them to expect one thing by repeating a certain pattern and then doing another or by not giving your opponent any time to think/react or making your opponent feel desperate by pushing them into the corner or so on and so forth.

I guess I'm just not understanding what's so bad about a game that encourages yomi in the neutral.
 
Karsticles said:
There are three parts to the neutral, I wager:
Yomi
Execution
Reaction Time

The more a game leans on the first category, the more random it is due to guesswork.


Daigo plays Ryu, I would guess, because Ryu does a lot of work on solid and slow play. Then there are characters like Seth, which succeed primarily through reads. I used the DP example because the video was posted recently.
Click to expand...

I'd go ahead and add frames/move properties and knowledge of them and when and where to use them to that list.

Those two dovetail into Yomi, but they really are separate, and are the core of mind games.
 
Every time I see the word Yomi I think of Yaoi and every time I see the word Yaoi I think of Floe and Marn.
 
Kadey said:
Every time I see the word Yomi I think of Yaoi and every time I see the word Yaoi I think of Floe and Marn.
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It sounds to me like Karst just wants to play a setplay-heavy character. Should've gotten into this game before DWU. Or go to anime and play Rachel or Kokonoe. :P
 
Vice said:
Rose doesnt depend on her fireballs in the way Guile or Ryu do, since they're pretty bad. She's more about being mid-range with pokes.
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My problem with all spacing characters in this game is that they can never seem to manage that space. Like Yun has this charging punch attack that goes 2/3 of the screen and is positive on block. How the he'll am I supposed to maintain space against that crap?

Onemic said:
wut

I can understand Yun/Rufus for the DK characters, but not Yang.
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You can't really feel mindful when mashing c.LK into combos all day long with Elena, can you? That is like 90% of her neutral, and sometimes you decide to cancel into the EX overhead for a mix up. The other 10% is her slide and normal overhead.

Zissou said:
Blanka is bad enough where he'll cease to be fun once you start playing against strong enough players. Take this from someone who played him from vanilla SF4 to when marvel came out- don't invest in the character.
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:-( Who do you play now, then?

Master Milk said:
If you're going to play a game you don't like, might as well play BB instead. Apparently the Era of Anime is upon us, so it's best to prepare while you still can.
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Hahaha! I have said it before, and I will pick BB up when Nine/Phantom is added. The only character I like in BB is Tager, and that is a fate far worse than maining Blanka. I already went down that path once!

El Sloth said:
What about the act of measuring one's space to an opponent and trying to inch themselves into their best range while trying to stay out of their opponents range? Would you just file that under Yomi?

Well, isn't it your job as the player to try and mitigate that guesswork? To impose your will on the other player by subtlety, and not so subtlety, making them move and act as want you them to? Whether it is by training them to expect one thing by repeating a certain pattern and then doing another or by not giving your opponent any time to think/react or making your opponent feel desperate by pushing them into the corner or so on and so forth.

I guess I'm just not understanding what's so bad about a game that encourages yomi in the neutral.
Click to expand...

Laconic said:
I'd go ahead and add frames/move properties and knowledge of them and when and where to use them to that list.

Those two dovetail into Yomi, but they really are separate, and are the core of mind games.
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You are both right, there are other aspects. Spacing and knowledge count for a lot. It is a bad list.

Sloth, it is a difference of opinion and what you want in a game. Someone else mentioned Poker, and that is a good analogy. Poker and chess are opposites. Pure uncertainty and "yomi" vs. reason and calculation. Personally, I like fighting games as a kind of fast-paced chess. I wouldn't want to yomi a chess game, and I prefer to keep it minimal in fighting games. If you think Poker is the epitome of games, then you might find my perspective odd and foreign.
 
Karsticles said:
My problem with all spacing characters in this game is that they can never seem to manage that space. Like Yun has this charging punch attack that goes 2/3 of the screen and is positive on block. How the he'll am I supposed to maintain space against that crap?
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only ex lunge punch is positive on block if i recall.
 
What would a good Blanka even look like mechanically?

ipitydatfu said:
you can always play chunli u2. her charge fireball isnt that necessary
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I don't mind charge characters, though I think the charge time in SF is really excessive. Skullgirls only requires about 30 frames, and it feels good.

Kalamari said:
I still haven't found a character I really enjoy playing in SF, that's why I play Ryu.
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I know that feeling! I go to him sometimes myself.

Marz said:
Blanka is cool?

That must be a typo Karst.
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So cool. My wife thinks so, too, and she can't be wrong.

OceanBlue said:
It sounds to me like Karst just wants to play a setplay-heavy character. Should've gotten into this game before DWU. Or go to anime and play Rachel or Kokonoe. :P
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Setplay gets boring, though. There is a sweet spot between setplay and random that I really enjoy. What is DWU?
 
Karsticles said:
My problem with all spacing characters in this game is that they can never seem to manage that space. Like Yun has this charging punch attack that goes 2/3 of the screen and is positive on block. How the he'll am I supposed to maintain space against that crap?
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Against Yun? Light and heavy punch beat it clean. It just takes a lot of situational knowledge.
 
I hate charge characters. But Decapre is so fun to play as that I just deal with it!

I still hate fucking up her ultra2 and getting the wrong version of it occasionally.
 
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