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Fighting Games Weekly | June 30 - July 6 | Judge, Juri & EGsecutioner

S

SloaneRisette

Member
Dios X vs F. Champ first round in Marvel

I swear that shit has to be rigged

And I'm still sad I'm not playing Champ first round, c'mon Wiz!
 
O

Onemic

Member
Karsticles said:
You can't really feel mindful when mashing c.LK into combos all day long with Elena, can you? That is like 90% of her neutral, and sometimes you decide to cancel into the EX overhead for a mix up. The other 10% is her slide and normal overhead.

.
Click to expand...

I literally cant mash that because she has no chains lol.

I'm able to beat you easily because I'm able to easily read your game. Confirming into a combo isn't mindless considering that's the basis to SF4 and FG's in general. Are you saying she's mindless because her neutral is strong? It's really not mindless if I'm able to know that 95% of the time you either will

a) not tech a grab
b) mash on wakeup
c) not AA a crossup

I don't even play her the same against different characters/players. Theres never a time I'm not thinking with her, which I cant say for the other characters I've played in the past. By what you're saying Chun is mindless as well because she has a strong neutral game.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
Karsticles said:
:-( Who do you play now, then?
Click to expand...

Only recently tried picking up the game again, but I've been playing Rose. She has some marvel-lite elements that I enjoy: U2 being ouro/SS-ish and being able to FADC her slow LP fireball and move around freely while it's on screen. Also, I like Jojo, so I'm partial to the Lisa Lisa homage! I'm awful at SF4 though, haha.

I'm not even going to pretend I know enough about SF4 to say what Blanka would need to be better. He got little things in ultra like being able to FADC ex-up ball for a safe reversal, but charge characters always feel like they're at a disadvantage in the SF4 engine. When they're under pressure they have a harder time than others because you can mash out a reversal even if you know the other guy is pressing buttons like a nut. It's much harder to take advantage of focus attacks. The match also becomes torturous if you don't have the life lead. You lose access to so many important tools the second you have to walk forward. Viscant has said that in SF4, the life lead is a weapon. When you play Blanka you will feel the truth of that statement.
 
E

El Sloth

Banned
Karsticles said:
Sloth, it is a difference of opinion and what you want in a game. Someone else mentioned Poker, and that is a good analogy. Poker and chess are opposites. Pure uncertainty and "yomi" vs. reason and calculation. Personally, I like fighting games as a kind of fast-paced chess. I wouldn't want to yomi a chess game, and I prefer to keep it minimal in fighting games. If you think Poker is the epitome of games, then you might find my perspective odd and foreign.
Click to expand...
Ha, well I've always been a shit chess player. But I'm not exactly too hot on poker either. Maybe we are understanding the term "yomi" differently here, but wouldn't two good chess players going at it be employing several layers of yomi to win?

Yomi, as I had it explained to me, is the ability to get inside the head of your opponent. Whether it's by being able to predict what they're going to do next or making them do as you want them to. At least that's how I've come to understand it. Is that wrong? Are high level chess players not doing this? As someone who never got passed "you can move your Pawn two spaces or one space forward as their first action", what does it take to win a chess match that isn't present in a Street Fighter 4 match?
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
El Sloth said:
Ha, well I've always been a shit chess player. But I'm not exactly too hot on poker either. Maybe we are understanding the term "yomi" differently here, but wouldn't two good chess players going at it be employing several layers of yomi to win?

Yomi, as I had it explained to me, is the ability to get inside the head of your opponent. Whether it's by being able to to predict what they're going to do next or making them do as you want them to. At least that's how I've come to understand it. Is that wrong? Are high level chess players not doing this? As someone who never got passed "you can move your Pawn two spaces or one space forward as their first action", what does it take to win a chess match that isn't present in Street Fighter 4 match?
Click to expand...

Karst's analogy works if you compare one hand of poker to two robots playing chess

and only then really
 
X

xCobalt

Member
Professor Beef said:
Trying to find myself. This is gonna take a while...

EDIT: Never mind, found myself in Ultra. B44. Doesn't seem like there's anyone noteworthy in my pool. It's also at 10 AM, which gives me time for breakfast!
Click to expand...

Isn't Sonyono an online warrior? I remember he had some very flashy ibuki/viper combos. Luffy is in your pool too.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Vice said:
Against Yun? Light and heavy punch beat it clean. It just takes a lot of situational knowledge.
Click to expand...
Yomi.

OceanBlue said:
Delayed wake-up. Just out of curiosity, what is that sweet spot?
Click to expand...
Where you have safe options but a lot of other options as well, all of which have potential and are interesting.

onionfrog said:
I hate charge characters. But Decapre is so fun to play as that I just deal with it!

I still hate fucking up her ultra2 and getting the wrong version of it occasionally.
Click to expand...
How is Decapre fun?

Rhapsody said:
A lot of girls seem to like Blanka lol
Click to expand...
What is with that anyway?

Kadey said:
The most badass Blanka ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqQeWo75SkM

You are supposed to play him like that.
Click to expand...
I will check this after I post.

Onemic said:
I literally cant mash that because she has no chains lol.

I'm able to beat you easily because I'm able to easily read your game. Confirming into a combo isn't mindless considering that's the basis to SF4 and FG's in general. Are you saying she's mindless because her neutral is strong? It's really not mindless if I'm able to know that 95% of the time you either will

a) not tech a grab
b) mash on wakeup
c) not AA a crossup

I don't even play her the same against different characters/players. Theres never a time I'm not thinking with her, which I cant say for the other characters I've played in the past. By what you're saying Chun is mindless as well because she has a strong neutral game.
Click to expand...
Dude, you beat me because your combos take a third of my health and I have to open you up a dozen times to get equivalent damage, and then you heal half of it back off of one knockdown while my Ultras are shit.

You are chaining the same low three times with her constantly. It isn't even about your play. JWong played her the same way. She takes Sakura levels of thinking.

Also, I never ever mash on wakeup. But thanks to the netcode, I do often get thrown while trying to throw you. And like I said before, I can't AA for crap with Blanka.

I don't even know why you brought our matches up. My opinion isn't based off of that. You can watch JWong play her and get the same opinion.

Zissou said:
Only recently tried picking up the game again, but I've been playing Rose. She has some marvel-lite elements that I enjoy: U2 being ouro/SS-ish and being able to FADC her slow LP fireball and move around freely while it's on screen. Also, I like Jojo, so I'm partial to the Lisa Lisa homage! I'm awful at SF4 though, haha.

I'm not even going to pretend I know enough about SF4 to say what Blanka would need to be better. He got little things in ultra like being able to FADC ex-up ball for a safe reversal, but charge characters always feel like they're at a disadvantage in the SF4 engine. When they're under pressure they have a harder time than others because you can mash out a reversal even if you know the other guy is pressing buttons like a nut. It's much harder to take advantage of focus attacks. The match also becomes torturous if you don't have the life lead. You lose access to so many important tools the second you have to walk forward. Viscant has said that in SF4, the life lead is a weapon. When you play Blanka you will feel the truth of that statement.
Click to expand...
I have felt that truth. Vulva turtles all match long once he hits me once.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
I like fighting games because they bring together so many elements and and I think this is why many different kinds of people and playstyles can succeed. There are so many things to be strong at, and being strong at even one of them is sometimes enough.

You have:
Spacing - understanding what space you and your opponent control/can control.
Reactions - self-explanatory
Resource Management - knowing how and when to build resources (meter, etc.) and when to expend them for maximum reward
Valuation - understanding which characters or tactics are the best. Viscant won Evo 2011 with mostly this.
Yomi - being able to predict what your opponent will do.
Execution - being able to do precise complex things consistently in the heat of the moment.

I'm sure there are more. I like fighting games where all of these things are present.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
El Sloth said:
Ha, well I've always been a shit chess player. But I'm not exactly too hot on poker either. Maybe we are understanding the term "yomi" differently here, but wouldn't two good chess players going at it be employing several layers of yomi to win?

Yomi, as I had it explained to me, is the ability to get inside the head of your opponent. Whether it's by being able to to predict what they're going to do next or making them do as you want them to. At least that's how I've come to understand it. Is that wrong? Are high level chess players not doing this? As someone who never got passed "you can move your Pawn two spaces or one space forward as their first action", what does it take to win a chess match that isn't present in Street Fighter 4 match?
Click to expand...
Zero yomi in chess above what kids play. Yomi means you are predicting and making decisions off of predictions. Kids will often say things like "agh, I was hoping you would do that move". That is not how chess works. You calculate as deep as you can and proceed. No, you cannot see everything, but you missing something doesn't make it yomi. A parallel: Ryu does U1 against a Blanka with meter that has been holding down-back for a few seconds. Blanka EX rolls through the fireball and hits Ryu. This is not yomi, it is just an error in understanding the situation. Everything in chess is like this situation. You can learn it, but what you can learn is finite.

Chess is a fully causal study. Your goal is to account for all possible options before making your move, and to make a move that counters all of them.

Retro_ said:
Karst's analogy works if you compare one hand of poker to two robots playing chess

and only then really
Click to expand...
Maybe you only play at a casual level, but this is absolutely not true. There is a reason why tournament matches are 6 hours long each.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
OceanBlue said:
Do you feel as if you don't have safe options in SF4?
Click to expand...
The game is fundamentally guessing, which I also utikize to great advantage at times. Focus attacks are a good example. Any time you use a poke that cannot be special canceled like Blanka's c.HP, you risk getting countered if your opponent guessed right. Baiting options is the name of the game in SF4.

Up close, you can go for a frame trap, but you might just get DPed through it. Pretty much everything can be countered in this way. Example: I did Blanka's slide against someone, and they just randomly happened to do a DP through it. Nearly any attack option in the game can be countered by a correctly timed DP. I know that when I played Guile a lot, I would Flash Kick any time I saw my opponent start to animate beyond walking. I don't think that is good game design, though.

mbpm1 said:
There's always a move that counters all possible moves?
Click to expand...
Let me rephrase: the goal in chess is to assert yourself on such a way that you are completely unassailable, and most chess games reach such a point through one player being more careful than another. The fighting game notion of "never give up" does not apply. Once one player gains significant advantage in high level play, the other player typically resigns. This significant advantage might be equivalent to a 20% health difference in Street Fighter.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Kadey said:
Him vs Poongko. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQesNUzXyNU
Click to expand...

captureyxj0s.png


RIP Poongko's fight stick at the end.

Karsticles said:
No, you cannot see everything
Click to expand...

And we are done.

Top level chess players will know all the normal patterns from many game positions. Leading your opponent into a particular defense or offence and switching it up is all part of the game. This is why not all games go 6 hours, players will recognise when they have made a mistake and call it early.
 
O

onionfrog

Member
Karsticles said:
Yomi.
How is Decapre fun?
Click to expand...
1. I <3 rushdown characters with schenanigans.
2. Setting up BS with her stalking flare ultra.
3. Combos into mixups into airthrows. (Just like a certain character I play in a different game)
4. Successful reads and punishes with her Ultra 2 are so satisfying.
5. Chipping out fools with multiple EX hands. (I'm not sure if this is actually safe or just online safe...)

Downsides:
-I fuck up charge Ultras
-Can't mash out DPs
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Never imagined karts as a blanka player. Thought the oil up properties of hakan or gens stances would be a good fit for a technical player.
 
U

Uraizen

Banned
onionfrog said:
I hate charge characters. But Decapre is so fun to play as that I just deal with it!

I still hate fucking up her ultra2 and getting the wrong version of it occasionally.
Click to expand...

Use the alternate method to get the correct ultra 2 each time. Instead of db, df, db, uf, end it with ub instead. You will never get the version you don't want again.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Karsticles said:
Maybe you only play at a casual level, but this is absolutely not true. There is a reason why tournament matches are 6 hours long each.
Click to expand...

So is that the same reason world chess championship matches are just over 3 hours at maximum?

That isn't that long given many matches do not go anywhere near it. Basically it is like a short game of KOF.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
toddhunter said:
captureyxj0s.png


RIP Poongko's fight stick at the end.



And we are done.

Top level chess players will know all the normal patterns from many game positions. Leading your opponent into a particular defense or offence and switching it up is all part of the game. This is why not all games go 6 hours, players will recognise when they have made a mistake and call it early.
Click to expand...
That isn't yomi, though. It is knowledge through experience.

toddhunter said:
So is that the same reason world chess championship matches are just over 3 hours at maximum?

That isn't that long given many matches do not go anywhere near it. Basically it is like a short game of KOF.
Click to expand...
Most games are 60 in 2 game in 1 for each player. The point is that you get a ton of time. When I played professional chess, most of my games went 3 hours minimum. As I got more experienced, they went more to 4-5 on average. It half depends on how much your opponent thinks, though. I have played plenty of matches where we both used 2.5+ hours each.

@Kadey: fun video. I am still working on mastering my pianos. I spent 3 hours practicing Surprise Forward and j.MK into c.LK, H Lightning today. I will give it about 20 min per day until it feels natural.

onionfrog said:
1. I <3 rushdown characters with schenanigans.
2. Setting up BS with her stalking flare ultra.
3. Combos into mixups into airthrows. (Just like a certain character I play in a different game)
4. Successful reads and punishes with her Ultra 2 are so satisfying.
5. Chipping out fools with multiple EX hands. (I'm not sure if this is actually safe or just online safe...)

Downsides:
-I fuck up charge Ultras
-Can't mash out DPs
Click to expand...
Those air throw combos are hot.

It figures you would drop Rose right after I swapped to someone who can handle her. :p

MiniBossBattle said:
Never imagined karts as a blanka player. Thought the oil up properties of hakan or gens stances would be a good fit for a technical player.
Click to expand...
Hakan is actually pretty appealing to me. Beef made him look pretty fun. What is your definition of "technical"? It tends to get used to mean high execution or thoughtful/complicated, I noticed. I loathe stance characters, though. I hate having to master multiple movesets for one character. I will only make an exception for Eliza.
 
I

ipitydatfu

Member
To be fair, once I got a feel for your grab shenanigans, 90% of the time all you did was

Jump in, normal move cancelled into lightning, sweep if blocked
 
K

Karsticles

Member
ipitydatfu said:
To be fair, once I got a feel for your grab shenanigans, 90% of the time all you did was

Jump in, normal move cancelled into lightning, sweep if blocked
Click to expand...
I am working on the timing for a throw after a lightning, but I keep screwing it up in training mode. Do keep in mind that this is my second day playing the character. I am just not sure if I am enjoying myself enough to continue on. My claim, as best as I can recall, was never that I have mastered Blanka in two days.

I will try Gen and Hakan tomorrow, but I suspect they will not be as fun as Blanka. I really don't mind playing underpowered characters. My Marvel team is by no means top tier. No one else on the planet even uses my team, I wager. Angelic tried it once though.
 
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