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Fighting Games Weekly | June 30 - July 6 | Judge, Juri & EGsecutioner
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notworksafe
Member
button in the bottom left that says "send feedback"
Alright, thank you for taking the time to explain. I have a better understanding of what you mean now (and of competitive chess).
I just can't agree with invincible reversals being random however. It's something I need to think about more.
By the way, this:
Is something I say all the time when I'm playing Hugo!
Passive Assassin
Member
sloth hugo : buttslams all day
ipitydatfu
Member
I see, I just assumed you maimed blanka
I brought up our matches because I feel like you're salty
my bad if that's not the case though.Anyway, Elena has 0 chains. Just because you link a normal into another normal that doesn't make it a chain. that normal I'm(And jwong) are hitting people with is:
c.lp, c.lp, c.mp
or
c.lk, c.lp, c.mp
the former is two 2 framers and a 1 framer, the latter is two 1 framers and a two framer. By your logic Vega is also mindless because 90% of his game is poking you with his c.lp multiple times to confirm into his combo. Which once again, are not chains.
As for our matches, I dont think you can really blame lag if you cant tech a meaty throw I'm doing to you with the exact same obvious setup every time. I mean, I was teching your throws off hop, which is much more random of a mixup compared to what I was doing.(although there are times when you think you should get a tech online and it doesnt happen) I don't play Blanka so I can't really give many tips on how to fight Elena, but use his electricity more often if you think I'll cross you up. Also the only combos that can take a third of your health(At least the ones I was landing on you) were my punishes off c.mp, and that'd usually come because you'd do a completely random Ultra for no reason. Her BnB only does 214. You also rely too much on blanka balls in our matches, that shit is a free punish for Elena every time.
That's not random. That's Daigo making godlike reads.
I get where you are coming from though but I don't agree with your assessment of "randomness" or at the very least it's not what I mean when I think of what randomness means.
Randomness to me is simply a level of uncertainty in a game that is for the most part not in either of the player's control. For example, a move that hits you either from the front or the behind is ambiguous and thus contributes to the randomness of a game. Or the prime example being the Vergil super crossing you up pseudo randomly. Or inconsistency in move properties and their interactions. And for a game to be random it not only has a lot of these things in spades.. but it rewards you highly for going for these random things in game and the random thing in question is very easy to do (like you don't need to set it up properly or pick the proper time to use it). To me some aspects of Marvel are in fact random. Helm Breaker is random because at point black range it has the ability to hit you from behind even if Vergil is directly in front of you (a pseudo unblockable move). This is a problem because a Helm Breaker can lead into a character death and can initiate a snowball effect leading to a loss. If you can trace a loss to a random property of a move acting favorably or unfavorably in a situation then that is random. In SF an example of what I would consider to be a random situation is something like Sakura's Tatsu kick going over the person's hit box and hitting them as a cross up.
In this regard I see Tekken as a very non random game (contrary to what some of the people were claiming at the start of TTT2). There are hardly any true mix ups in the game, dangerous lows can be reacted to and in most cases are punishable on block or susceptible to a low parry. Fast and safe high moves can be ducked which adds the appropriate risk to them. Throws are breakable with the appropriate button and just requires reaction... no real guess work as you can check for the animation. There are no ambiguous cross ups in this game, you don't have to worry about blocking forward versus back... just high low and even then the high low is not that hard to block if you are looking for it (it becomes more of a reaction than a guess work). In the neutral you space with pokes and you make reads in the neutral with a few good reads can win you the game. Like you know your opponent will do a EWGF... you see the opponent sort of step up to you and you make the hard read of ducking making them whiff the EWGF and you get a free combo with a WS launcher. Or you can choose not to take the risk on that read and just stay back maintaining proper positioning, wait for a whiff then go in with good frame advantage over them.
http://evo2014.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssf4_a61.html
DAMMIT, I play Filipino Champ first in USF4 pools. Anyone got any Anti-dhalsim tips?
DAMMIT, I play Filipino Champ first in USF4 pools. Anyone got any Anti-dhalsim tips?
Very friendly. So far, SoCal, CenCal and NorCal have all been very welcoming. Lots of players will take time out to show you a thing or two.
Passive Assassin
Member
can you go in detail about the OC scene?
Which character do you use? Honestly I really hate fighting Dhalsim. The character has so many tools and options you have to watch out for and your offense against him has to be perfect if you're not playing an obscene character like Yun.
Learn Yun, seriously. Yun strategy vs Sim doesn't even require you to be a good Yun.
Laugh and Dieminion is gonna be a bonkers fight in pools.
As stupid as that match is, a Day 3 Yun is unlikely to beat a dude who used to beat Daigo for fun.
If you play Ryu, you are kind of boned though, so you might as well.
As stupid as that match is, a Day 3 Yun is unlikely to beat a dude who used to beat Daigo for fun.
If you play Ryu, you are kind of boned though, so you might as well.
I'm terrible at SF4, but I play Ryu, Evil Ryu, and Fei. I'm mainly going for the Super Turbo events, but figured I'd enter SF4 while I'm out there.
I get destroyed by scrub tactics like air teleport abuse and I can't stop backdashing on wakeup.
Karsticles
Member
I know that feeling from playing Tager. I hate guessing command grabs.
Nah. Technically an Oni main, but I am probably better with Blanka than I am with him, somehow...
You know, while I appreciate the feedback, I don't really need it. I get that Blanka balls are unsafe. I didn't do them often, but I had to test them to see if you could punish all four versions. I still don't know if you can punish the light version, since I never got to use it against you.I brought up our matches because I feel like you're salty
Anyway, Elena has 0 chains. Just because you link a normal into another normal that doesn't make it a chain. that normal I'm(And jwong) are hitting people with is:
c.lp, c.lp, c.mp
or
c.lk, c.lp, c.mp
the former is two 2 framers and a 1 framer, the latter is two 1 framers and a two framer. By your logic Vega is also mindless because 90% of his game is poking you with his c.lp multiple times to confirm into his combo. Which once again, are not chains.
As for our matches, I dont think you can really blame lag if you cant tech a meaty throw I'm doing to you with the exact same obvious setup every time. I mean, I was teching your throws off hop, which is much more random of a mixup compared to what I was doing.(although there are times when you think you should get a tech online and it doesnt happen) I don't play Blanka so I can't really give many tips on how to fight Elena, but use his electricity more often if you think I'll cross you up. Also the only combos that can take a third of your health(At least the ones I was landing on you) were my punishes off c.mp, and that'd usually come because you'd do a completely random Ultra for no reason. Her BnB only does 214. You also rely too much on blanka balls in our matches, that shit is a free punish for Elena every time.
Do you mean jump cross ups? I can't get lightning to come out fast enough to counter jumps. That might be my problem, though. I hate that his AAs are both tied to standing attacks. I have played Ryu, Guile, Akuma, and Guile, and they all AA with c.HP. So while it might look like I just get hit like an idiot by jump ins over and over, I am actually trying to AA you with the wrong muscle memory input.
The only thing that really makes me salty about Elena is her healing hyper. That is not well balanced. That Guile set was really stupid. Then you did it again against someone's Poison (Smedwicks?). Focus attacks should not build meter for Elena when she has that Ultra selected. In general, it just does not make sense that it should heal as much or more than most Ultras do in damage. I would gladly sacrifice my Ultras on any character I play for that. Way too good.
There were times I literally stood in your face, and hit throw right after you rose only to get thrown. Maybe it is an Elena thing, because it only happens against you. /shrug It is part of why I started being more conservative in my setups against you. Somehow you were throwing me where no one else can.
I personally feel Decapre does best when played lame with short controlled bursts of rushdown to gain the life lead/get the KO.
At least, that's the feeling I get when I see the character played. I haven't actually tried her out yet myself.
I personally don't think Hakan is an underpowered character at all, merely underrepresented. He's got a lot of tools, great normals, and can be surprisingly mobile when oiled up. Oil stacking really was what he needed before.
Hard reads!
ipitydatfu
Member
speaking of elena, so which moves arent safe on block?
SloaneRisette
Member
All of my pools are in the morning so if any other GAFfers want to hang out, get some games in, whatever, I'll be free from noon on both Friday and Saturday!
Also Karst if that is what you feel about yomi in general then I would honestly stop playing SF4 completely. It's almost completely yomi based...from its neutral, to its mix ups. The whole concept of whiff punishment in SF4 is actually more prediction based than raw reactions for example.
Like for example when you throw a fireball you are not just implementing a strategy... you are making the guess that "this guy will not jump in this instance nor will he Focus attack it... I am making that guess and thus I will throw a fireball". Or if you throw out a Guile forward + HP you are making the guess that the person is walking forward and not ducking. If someone walks up within your forward + HP range and then immediately ducks.. that is most likely not a raw reaction but rather them guessing that you will do forward + HP at this range.
It's a game about exploiting the other player's tendencies and behavior patterns. Top players approach a match by first categorizing players based on making them go through tests. For example:
*I start the match as Guile. I throw out a Sonic Boom at the start of the match. If the person jumped at the start of the match that tells me this guy likes to jump a lot so I need to be good on my anti airs and be careful about throwing fireballs.
If I see him back up I will ascertain this guy favors a bit more defensive playstyle and I will keep throwing more fireballs until he tries to approach .
If I see him Focus Attack the fireball and dash forward then I know that I have to watch out for this guy at mid range where he can throw Focus Attack which means I need to keep my back + HP move in handy and I need to have Flash Kicks charged as much as possible to break the FA (as Guile is a bit weak to FAs).
If I manage to say get him in block stun then I simply do cr.LP x2 into back + HP. This is a very simple frame trap but this is just for data collection. If he blocks that it tells me the other player is patient and likes to block... this means next time I will try to go for a throw instead of the back + HP or I will throw out an overhead to test his reactions. If he gets hit that tells me this guy likes to press buttons which is added to my data collection (if he jumped at my initial sonic boom and he got hit by this then this tells me that he likes to move forward and press buttons which means I need to have the appropriate buttons to frame trap him and prevent his forward movement). If instead I get DP'd that tells me that this guy likes to mash DPs on block strings and next time I will simply do cr.LP x2 and just wait so that his DP comes out and I punish him. All of this data works in the opposite as well... if someone gets me in a block string it will tell me his tendencies on what he likes to do (frame trap, throw, go for overhead, wait for my DP etc).
Top players are good in this game because they can quickly ascertain the type of player someone is within a few moves or at the most one round. It's all about pattern recognition and experience learning but it happens at a fast pace. If you get the "download" on someone then you start implementing mind games but they are doing that to you as well so that's where the mind game. Oh you will throw out a button, I will just back away from its range and counter poke/whiff punish you. Oh you will walk forward, I will throw out my button. Oh you will not jump so I will throw a fireball. Oh you will jump so I will anti air you. That's why SF matches look like players just moving back and forth all day.. it's mind games. "Am I or am I not going to do this move that you think I will do... that is the question"
Like for example when you throw a fireball you are not just implementing a strategy... you are making the guess that "this guy will not jump in this instance nor will he Focus attack it... I am making that guess and thus I will throw a fireball". Or if you throw out a Guile forward + HP you are making the guess that the person is walking forward and not ducking. If someone walks up within your forward + HP range and then immediately ducks.. that is most likely not a raw reaction but rather them guessing that you will do forward + HP at this range.
It's a game about exploiting the other player's tendencies and behavior patterns. Top players approach a match by first categorizing players based on making them go through tests. For example:
*I start the match as Guile. I throw out a Sonic Boom at the start of the match. If the person jumped at the start of the match that tells me this guy likes to jump a lot so I need to be good on my anti airs and be careful about throwing fireballs.
If I see him back up I will ascertain this guy favors a bit more defensive playstyle and I will keep throwing more fireballs until he tries to approach .
If I see him Focus Attack the fireball and dash forward then I know that I have to watch out for this guy at mid range where he can throw Focus Attack which means I need to keep my back + HP move in handy and I need to have Flash Kicks charged as much as possible to break the FA (as Guile is a bit weak to FAs).
If I manage to say get him in block stun then I simply do cr.LP x2 into back + HP. This is a very simple frame trap but this is just for data collection. If he blocks that it tells me the other player is patient and likes to block... this means next time I will try to go for a throw instead of the back + HP or I will throw out an overhead to test his reactions. If he gets hit that tells me this guy likes to press buttons which is added to my data collection (if he jumped at my initial sonic boom and he got hit by this then this tells me that he likes to move forward and press buttons which means I need to have the appropriate buttons to frame trap him and prevent his forward movement). If instead I get DP'd that tells me that this guy likes to mash DPs on block strings and next time I will simply do cr.LP x2 and just wait so that his DP comes out and I punish him. All of this data works in the opposite as well... if someone gets me in a block string it will tell me his tendencies on what he likes to do (frame trap, throw, go for overhead, wait for my DP etc).
Top players are good in this game because they can quickly ascertain the type of player someone is within a few moves or at the most one round. It's all about pattern recognition and experience learning but it happens at a fast pace. If you get the "download" on someone then you start implementing mind games but they are doing that to you as well so that's where the mind game. Oh you will throw out a button, I will just back away from its range and counter poke/whiff punish you. Oh you will walk forward, I will throw out my button. Oh you will not jump so I will throw a fireball. Oh you will jump so I will anti air you. That's why SF matches look like players just moving back and forth all day.. it's mind games. "Am I or am I not going to do this move that you think I will do... that is the question"
Karsticles
Member
How does his oil work exactly?
Oh shit, KOK is going? I guess I misread his name for KSK's lol.
Karsticles
Member
Yes to this.
While oiled Hakan gets improved range on throws and normals. He can also slide back and forth during focus. He also gets a slight defense buff and can cancel his dash into attacks.
Each version of oil adds a different amount of time. EX is projectile invulnerable.
Edit: It buffs damage and command throw range as well. The more oil you use the longer it lasts.
Yup, pool D42
Arturo said that he got the 3rd best Yun in Japan in his pool.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
If I recall correctly the basic Yomi layer scenario is "He's going to use A, so I'll use B to counter, but he knows I'm going to use B so I'll use C instead, but then he knows I'm going to use C instead of B so...." and so on.
I think if you're having trouble with someone being unpredictable, ultimately you have to find a way to start punishing them to change their behaviour. If you can't punish anything that they do, then they have no reason to stop being unpredictable because it's working.
I think that Daigo vs Riceta match is a good example. At first Riceta was dodging all of Daigo's hadoukens and getting in close when Daigo got careless. After the first match however Daigo started punishing Riceta for his mistakes more often causing him to dial everything back. He also used his hadoukens more conservatively and in better situations, resulting in almost all of them hitting (even if blocked which is better than it just passing over like in the first match). Daigo didn't let him get away with his game plan and backed him into a corner (which he didn't recover from).
I think the only solution is to become a threat so that your opponent will play more conservatively.
In other news I lost 14 matches in a row in BBCP tonight. Most of the time it ended up at match point for both of us but I just couldn't close it in my favour. I did get a handful of perfect rounds however so I must be doing something right.
I think if you're having trouble with someone being unpredictable, ultimately you have to find a way to start punishing them to change their behaviour. If you can't punish anything that they do, then they have no reason to stop being unpredictable because it's working.
I think that Daigo vs Riceta match is a good example. At first Riceta was dodging all of Daigo's hadoukens and getting in close when Daigo got careless. After the first match however Daigo started punishing Riceta for his mistakes more often causing him to dial everything back. He also used his hadoukens more conservatively and in better situations, resulting in almost all of them hitting (even if blocked which is better than it just passing over like in the first match). Daigo didn't let him get away with his game plan and backed him into a corner (which he didn't recover from).
I think the only solution is to become a threat so that your opponent will play more conservatively.
In other news I lost 14 matches in a row in BBCP tonight. Most of the time it ended up at match point for both of us but I just couldn't close it in my favour. I did get a handful of perfect rounds however so I must be doing something right.
Yup when I do a jump crossup on wakeup. Try that or blanka's vertical ball. I'm not always doing a safe jump when I'm crossing you up on wakeup so you should be able to AA me.
If focus' didn't build meter for elena with the ultra selected it would be worthless. It's part of what makes zoners less inclined to throw out fireballs against her. I personally think it's fine because you can only get a full U2 on like 5% of the cast. Unless canceled most characters can punish it with at least a sweep into hard knockdown or more, Blanka included.
Throws whiffing is definitely not an Elena only thing as the size of your hurtbox doesn't matter. You could do Blanka's flatten thing and I can still throw you. If you were getting thrown on my wakeup that's probably because you threw too early. This might be due to Elena's wakeup time being different than most of the cast.
Professor Beef
Banned
Basically all of them except c.lk, c.lp, c.mp, and HP Mallet Smash. A well spaced spin scythe and slide can be safe too.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/190256/elena-frame-data-thread
yup
only moves that are 0 on block or more are c.lp and c.mp
but forget you were told any of this
Karsticles
Member
I wish lightning didn't take 5 inputs to come out.
And you can't expect someone like Dhalsim to rush Elena down instead of letting her heal all day. That is not a fair tool for zoners.
Sometimes I do vertical Blanka ball, but again my muscle memory screws things up. It will improve after 500 games. That is usually how long it takes for me to be comfortable with a character. I will do another long day of play tomorrow.
Maybe it is the different timing. I start my throws halfway through the recovery animation. If she takes longer once that starts, that might be what is messing me up. How stupid.
And you can't expect someone like Dhalsim to rush Elena down instead of letting her heal all day. That is not a fair tool for zoners.
Sometimes I do vertical Blanka ball, but again my muscle memory screws things up. It will improve after 500 games. That is usually how long it takes for me to be comfortable with a character. I will do another long day of play tomorrow.
How does the stacking work?
notworksafe
Member
I got my pool fray: http://evo2014.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssf4_a49.html
You can stack up to 30 seconds at a time. Not sure how much you start a round with though
L Oil Shower= 6 six seconds
M=8
H=12
EX=15
If you get hit during the move you get partial time.The time you get depends on how long the move went.
Karsticles
Member
SolarKnight
Member
So is anyone that's going to EVO planning on arriving on Wednesday?
Professor Beef
Banned
Remember, bracket is subject to change!It begins.... >
Nah, I'm arriving Thursday.
Real life seconds. It's measured in frames. For example, L oil shower is 360 frames if it goes all the way through.
ipitydatfu
Member
You stay oiled longer
Almost nothing is safe on block.
I can actually raw ultra (with Rufus) more than half of her specials on block as long as I'm not at max distance. The weirdest one is LK Spin Scythe, HK Spin Scythe and EX Spin Scythe but not MK.
My jab is 4 frames so I can't punish Rhyno horn (almost never see it anyway) and her heavy or EX mallet smash (which is the real bitch).
Yeah, I know. That's why I'm just looking up if they have youtube pages right now. Once the brackets are finalized, I'll have the list ready and commence the video analyzing.
Karsticles
Member
Watching Daigo vs. Riceata. Who else is a noteworthy Blanka player? I just saw Daigo get hit by the same scrubby Blanka ultra I use on people. Maybe it can't be stopped?
Passive Assassin
Member
check blackvegeta on youtube for top japanese players
Immortal Technique
Member
uhh I just saw Fanatiq on Twin Galaxies' stream?? He was on some kind of LoL team and they were all sitting around bickering with each other. It was surreal seeing him in that environment. Is that what he's up to these days?
Even if a move is negative, doesn't mean its unsafe. Some of the best pokes in the game are negative on block and can't be punished.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
In that case Daigo had no HP left. So his only choice (based on the commentators) was to jump over the first hit then shoryuken when he landed but he messed up/was too far.
If he had more health he could have just sat there and blocked it I think. You should look at those TSRAI videos that were posted earlier. When he gets in he brings people down to nothing in just a few seconds.
SloaneRisette
Member
At least USF4 will let me get my buttons right!
But yeah, just tweet me during Evo and we can hang out. I still am tempted to want to do a GAF corner in the byoc section
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