Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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Oh for the love of... Putin has this statement out (translation via AP)

In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.
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Unbelievable.
 
This story just keeps getting worse. And I still can't understand the point of shooting down a passenger plane. It is a war crime to attack civilians right? It's so senseless, I am in awe.
 
vikki said:
This story just keeps getting worse. And I still can't understand the point of shooting down a passenger plane. It is a war crime to attack civilians right? It's so senseless, I am in awe.
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There was no point because incompetence led to the plane being shot down. They wouldn't have targeted it if they knew it was civilian.
 
vikki said:
This story just keeps getting worse. And I still can't understand the point of shooting down a passenger plane. It is a war crime to attack civilians right? It's so senseless, I am in awe.
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I don't think anyone believes they intentionally shot down a passenger plane
 
vikki said:
This story just keeps getting worse. And I still can't understand the point of shooting down a passenger plane. It is a war crime to attack civilians right? It's so senseless, I am in awe.
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There's a transcript of a call suggesting that they intended to shoot down a cargo jet and only realised it was an airliner after the fact.
 
DarkFlow said:
Capturing a missile system is great and all, but how would they use it? If I gave you a BUK missile system right now, could you use it? It has like 2 parts, a radar truck that tracks the target and feeds that info to the missile track that fires. You think someone that captured one could use it with no training?
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Not someone with no training, but some of the separatists are ex-military and would know how to operate them or train others. Plus we don't know if it's a buk, it could have been something less complicated

I'm not Pro Russia or anything I'm just saying not to jump to conclusions or start putting all the blame on Russia, unless of course we find out that they did in fact do it for whatever reason, then it will be deserved. But for Hillary just to say it's definitely Russia because they're the only ones with the equipment is close minded, at least to my ignorant civilian brain
 
Tacitus_ said:
Oh for the love of... Putin has this statement out (translation via AP)



Unbelievable.
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There was a bit more to it, not that it changes much.

"We will do everything — everything — within our power, at least, so that an objective picture of what happened is available to our public and the public of Ukraine and the world. Such things are absolutely unacceptable."
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carfo said:
Not someone with no training, but some of the separatists are ex-military and would know how to operate them or train others. Plus we don't know if it's a buk, it could have been something less complicated
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Just because you're in the military does not mean you know how to work something. I drove a M1A2 in the army, but I would have zero idea how to fire a patriot missile.
 
DarkFlow said:
Just because you're in the military does not mean you know how to work something. I drove a M1A2 in the army, but I would have zero idea how to fire a patriot missile.
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Don't mean this to sound stupid, but isn't there a manual with the equipment.(Maybe access online) ? But yeah, they'd probably need someone that knows how. Just looking at options..

(googles m1a2)

shit thats awesome.
 
DarkFlow said:
Just because you're in the military does not mean you know how to work something. I drove a M1A2 in the army, but I would have zero idea how to fire a patriot missile.
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Right, but let's say they hijacked a M1A2 (or like t-84 or in their case), then you would know how to operate it. Is it inconceivable to think that there isn't ex military that would know how to operate a buk missile or at least another SAM?
 
commedieu said:
Don't mean this to sound stupid, but isn't there a manual with the equipment.(Maybe access online) ? But yeah, they'd probably need someone that knows how. Just looking at options..
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Yeah it would come with a field manual if they keep it stocked. It would still require a lot of training to make it work. Tanks and pretty simple, but it still took me months to even drive it without whipping people out the top when braked lol.
 
vikki said:
This story just keeps getting worse. And I still can't understand the point of shooting down a passenger plane. It is a war crime to attack civilians right? It's so senseless, I am in awe.
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The separatists recently shot down a cargo plane (back on the 14th)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334

A Ukrainian military transport aircraft has been shot down in the east, amid fighting with pro-Russian separatist rebels, Ukrainian officials say.

They say the An-26 plane was hit at an altitude of 6,500m (21,325ft).

The plane was targeted with "a more powerful missile" than a shoulder-carried missile, "probably fired" from Russia. The crew survived, reports say.
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A cargo plane and an airliner are pretty much the same thing. One has seats for passengers, the other doesn't. There is a pretty big difference between a 777 and an An-26 in terms of size, but presumably these weren't overly skilled operators.
 
carfo said:
Plus we don't know if it's a buk, it could have been something less complicated
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Well. We do know that shoulder-fired missile launchers can't shoot down planes flying 33,000 feet up in the air. They don't have the range. So we DO know it had to be a vehicle-mounted or installation-based missile system. Further, installations tend to fire ballistic missiles, not SAMs. So we're probably down to a portable, vehicle launcher.

So...probably the Buk, or a very similar model of vehicle.
 
DarkFlow said:
Capturing a missile system is great and all, but how would they use it? If I gave you a BUK missile system right now, could you use it? It has like 2 parts, a radar truck that tracks the target and feeds that info to the missile track that fires. You think someone that captured one could use it with no training?
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Well maybe that's why they shot down a passenger plane, cause they don't know what the hell they're doing.
 
CNN keeps transparently interleaving recorded pieces from this morning into their "2 hour live special". So obnoxious. Fortunately MSNBC is back to reporting on this instead of Gaza
 
DiscoJer said:
The separatists recently shot down a cargo plane (back on the 14th)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334



A cargo plane and an airliner are pretty much the same thing. One has seats for passengers, the other doesn't. There is a pretty big difference between a 777 and an An-26 in terms of size, but presumably these weren't overly skilled operators.
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MH17 was also the 3rd plane shot down over Ukraine today. That's something a lot of people aren't aware of. It isn't just MH17 today
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Well. We do know that shoulder-fired missile launchers can't shoot down planes flying 33,000 feet up in the air. They don't have the range. So we DO know it had to be a vehicle-mounted or installation-based missile system. Further, installations tend to fire ballistic missiles, not SAMs. So we're probably down to a portable, vehicle launcher.

So...probably the Buk, or a very similar model of vehicle.
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Could have been the Soviet created (Ukranian used) s200, s300, or s400. Less complicated than the buk and still capable of hitting past 33k ft

I think the big concern is that the separatists found the black boxes and took them. Would be a good thing if Russia forced them to turn them over
 
sangreal said:
oh, they'll definitely pain an objective picture for the russian public

http://*******/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

(they've since updated this with a denial, but you can see some of the original report) -- russia today since it is banned. Story about how it was a Ukrainian plot to assassinate Putin
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Yeah. When I read Putin's full statement and promises of an investigation for an "objective picture", I rolled my eyes so hard that I almost hurt myself.
 
antonz said:
MH17 was also the 3rd plane shot down over Ukraine today. That's something a lot of people aren't aware of. It isn't just MH17 today
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I don't think you're right. There have been several planes shot down recently but I've seen nothing about other planes being shot down today. What's your source?
 
TheLostBigBoss said:
Uhhh, well it was just around the time Israel went into Gaza.

It was a little after we started hearing about the 23 Americans on the flight manifest.
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Shiit.. this thread moved pretty fast.. im not sure I can pull off a good enough summary.. might wanna just take the time to go through when you can, sorry I'm useless.
 
carfo said:
Could have been the Soviet created (Ukranian used) s200, s300, or s400. Less complicated than the buk and still capable of hitting past 33k ft
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Nah. As far as anyone knows, Ukranian forces have not used any SAMs in this conflict because rebel forces don't have any military planes to shoot down. I see no reason to think Ukranian forces would shoot down anything.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Nah. As far as anyone knows, Ukranian forces have not used any SAMs in this conflict because rebel forces don't have any military planes to shoot down. I see no reason to think Ukranian forces would shoot down anything.
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Yeah I'm not saying Ukraine army did it, just stating the possibility that separatists could have captured one
 
carfo said:
Not someone with no training, but some of the separatists are ex-military and would know how to operate them or train others. Plus we don't know if it's a buk, it could have been something less complicated

I'm not Pro Russia or anything I'm just saying not to jump to conclusions or start putting all the blame on Russia, unless of course we find out that they did in fact do it for whatever reason, then it will be deserved. But for Hillary just to say it's definitely Russia because they're the only ones with the equipment is close minded, at least to my ignorant civilian brain
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MANY of the "separatists" are current and former members of the Russian military. Is it because Putin didn't press the button himself that you think it wouldn't be Russia's fault? It's not hate-on-Russia day or anything like that, this event could very likely(and will most likely) be traced back to heavy Russian influence and fault, regardless if it was a direct Russian order or not (which is most certainly wasn't).
 
also, what's interesting to note from the photos, this dude has the union flag on his uniform

wonder how he got a hold of that patch, guessing from a military surplus store
9521232_original.jpg
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
That's why I always thought it was funny people don't think the US could easily beat the Russian armed forces.
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It's kind of silly really, who the fuck is Russia to bully Ukraine? Britain and France alone could cripple Russia in a conventional war. Europe hasn't stopped innovating with end of the USSR.

If Europe only had the balls to put its foot down and tell Putin to fuck off, he'd be helpless.
 
carfo said:
Yeah I'm not saying Ukraine army did it, just stating the possibility that separatists could have captured one
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It is entirely possible it could be a captured unit but it would still be Russia's fault.
They are the driver of this entire conflict. A KGB/FSB General is "Defense Minister" of the "rebels". A Russian Advisor to Crimean Government is now Prime Minister of the "rebels"

Putin pretty much laid it all out. If Ukraine had rolled over and died and let Russia take the territory this would never have happened. Ukraine defending itself against aggressors brought this on the world.

suppadoopa said:
also, what's interesting to note from the photos, this dude has the union flag on his uniform

wonder how he got a hold of that patch, guessing from a military surplus store
[/QUOTE]
Surplus for sure. It has Royal Air Force on the front in another picture
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