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[licktheenvelope]

So that explains that.

Hey, have you ever actually asked those women you are speaking for whether they ever feel threatened by men? What kind of routines they need to go through to stay safe when going out? What kind of behavior they encounter both online with anonymous people and in person?

I've met women who I could tell were threatened by me for being a man... but i've met easily an equal number that aren't at all... my boss, as an example, is intimidating as all hell (not by looks by attitude).

I get that women have to be more nervous because they aren't driven by testosterone, I just don't see the attacks on women around me that I hear are happening everywhere all the time. Apologies if I can't help! But I can't do much if I don't see anything other than keep talking about how awesome women are. :\

 

[Pimpwerx]

Maybe I'm cynical, but this really is just internet hate on general. Stephen Smith, Bomani Jones and Dan Lebatard have often shared the vile hate messages they receive via email and Twitter. It reads the same, and it's just people taking shelter behind their computers feeling brave enough to say the most absurd shit. If you're a minority group, you're going to get it the worst and on a regular basis. YouTube comments are just a hint at the hate people can spew. Every black YT provider can attest to this.

It won't change, and there's no way to change it. What are we going to do, police people's thoughts? Force people to use real identities online? You give people private access to a public forum and even if it's a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the whole, someone will use it as a means to vent their own personal frustration. If your a minority with a differing opinion, get ready for the hate. PEACE.

 

[Stinkles]

I know its difficult. I feel sick to my stomach having typed what I did. I can only imagine the fear that the countless others feel. I'm not trying to say no one should voice their opinions. I'm saying that focusing this issue on women alone is a mistake. it's universal, and while women are the talk of the day as far as negative industry stories go, its a much wider issue and the abuse that men face is just as important to discuss and end. My only qualm with this whole thing is the seemingly exclusive focus on women, as if men aren't going through the same.

Abuse is abuse. I don't know the numbers. I don't know if it's 60 percent men, 40 women, or 40 men and 60 women or whatever it might be. But if one guy or one girl has to deal with it, it's a problem. Gender isn't the important thing here and I think focusing on the gender is limiting the scope of the solution.

On the contrary, it focuses on a more manageable section of a larger problem. Breaking issues into discrete components is a rational way to address bigger problems.

 

[Krejlooc]

The other day, I had my mother over to my house and we sort of caught up on each others interests. She isn't technosavvy, in fact she's almost completely computer illiterate (tablet form computers saved her from being totally computer illiterate - but that's a topic of another discussion). So, while discussing what's been going on in my life, I was telling her about a Virtual Reality developers group I run out of Houston that has monthly meetings, and explaining how happy I am that it's been steadily growing. So she asks me, "do any women show up to these meetings?" And I thought for a second and told her that, yes, we have had a young woman who has shown up for a couple of meetings in a row now and how encouraging it is (more because she's very young - in her early teens - than because she's a woman).

My mom didn't believe me. We actually had a conversation about women in technology and I was telling her about female engineers I met at Steam Dev Days and she was flabbergasted. "I thought computers were for boys" she said.

My mother is 65 years old, so she has an old school mindset. But that right there is the crux of the problem. This is a systematic problem - when these women are being harassed at work, it is a symptom of a problem that was born when they were children. My sister has a daughter - my sister is very educated (PhD candidate) and her daughter is incredibly gifted, and 5 years old. We've actually had conversations about the role of little girls in technology, since my niece seems to be drawn to computers. Our conclusion? Little girls get "dumb" toys like Barbies, while little boys get video games and computers. It is an early segregation that leads to all this.

Luckily, this is changing. It's not uncommon to see little girls with ipads or iphones or whatever. We will reap the benefits of technosavvy women being common place in 20 years when these current kids are growing up. Societal change takes a long time to happen. If we want to fix this problem, the solution is to get girls involved in technology at as young an age as possible.

 

[Clear]

"Hey guys. I have never seen this, therefore it is not happening!"

That's what you're saying. These women are talking about their experiences, and your borderline saying they're lying. Why would they lie?

Noone is calling anyone a liar, the point is that hateful tweets and postings are undeniably a common problem on the internet. The evidence is there in black and white for all to see.

That being said, there is far less evidence that workplaces within the industry are populated by extreme sexists and misogynists. If it was that pervasive, I assure you based on my experience at many studios over the years, people would get called on it.

Bottom line is that, at least in my opinion, those that spew hatred and bile on the internet are minority of a large population. The games industry itself is comparatively tiny, so anyone with such an extreme personality defecit would immediately be very apparent.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maybe I'm cynical, but this really is just internet hate on general. Stephen Smith, Bomani Jones and Dan Lebatard have often shared the vile hate messages they receive via email and Twitter. It reads the same, and it's just people taking shelter behind their computers feeling brave enough to say the most absurd shit. If you're a minority group, you're going to get it the worst and on a regular basis. YouTube comments are just a hint at the hate people can spew. Every black YT provider can attest to this.

It won't change, and there's no way to change it. What are we going to do, police people's thoughts? Force people to use real identities online? You give people private access to a public forum and even if it's a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the whole, someone will use it as a means to vent their own personal frustration. If your a minority with a differing opinion, get ready for the hate. PEACE.

If you honestly aren't sure that harassment, threats, etc are more targeted at women than men, especially in male-dominated fields such as the game industry and especially on the internet where there are few consequences, please do us all a favor and read this thread and the linked article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748748

.

 

[xaszatm]

See I don't put that as "asking to be raped"... by what someone wears, however I would say "asking for attention." There's a massive difference there but when I see men cork their heads at women wearing ridiculously tight yoga pants i'm not chalking that up to a 'culture of rape.'

...then you will not be able to see it. Unless we are dealing with the most extreme examples, "rape culture" is a very subtle thing because we were brought up to not recognize it.

Also, maybe women like to wear tight yoga pants because it's comfortable? I mean, I'm not a female, but yoga pants usually aren't the clothes women wear for "attention." And even if they were, it still places blame upon the woman for dressing up how she wants instead of the bastard who couldn't keep it in his pants in the first place.

 

[Interfectum]

My problem is that I keep being told "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! STOP THESE GUYS FROM ACCOSTING THESE WOMEN!!!" ... and I keep saying "WHERE!?!? I'M NOT SEEING THIS!!!?"

Ya I'd say and do something about females being rampantly accosted in my local area/work/school(s), rec areas, etc... but I just don't encounter this.

It's not blatant and you don't see it because it's been ingrained into our every day life. The subtle looks, the break room flirtation, the 'playful' emails, etc.

 

[Mesoian]

As much as I hate hearing stories like this and how awful it is, is there any proof that this is a recurring thing going on EVERYWHERE in the games industry? Besides just dumb youtube comments?

I'm not calling anybody a liar and I do think that when a tree falls while no one is around it certainly does make a sound, it's just I have not been around anything like what the article writer is claiming. Like ever lol.

I only know that apparently, this is a thing. While I'm just pretty much idling my thumbs and just wanting to discuss video games with as little anger around each other as possible.

I just want to know how much of this is actually true and that any of this is actually happening besides some Anita Sarkinson videos with dumb youtube comments.

Anita Sarkeeson videos don't have comments, and the people who are usually the most vile in conversations like this one usually lambaste her about it because they don't have somewhere specific to spew their vitriol.

But yeah, a pretty good example was that Giant Bomb hiring fiasco that happened a few weeks ago. The women who expressed disapproval with them hiring two more straight white males (which is not the point of this discussion so let's leave that aside) were publically harassed for almost a week afterwards. Those tweets are still there, I'd suggest you go look through them because that shit is ALWAYS happening.

Shit, I have a few friends who are professional cosplayers and their inboxes are filled DAILY with creeps from the internet talking about about how they want to "lick their thighs" and other such bullshit. A friend of mine posts all of her more creepy OK_cupid responses from guys who think they're entitled to sex because they responded to an email.

It's EVERYWHERE. Guys just don't have to see it and can stay pretty oblivious to it all unless it's made apparent.

 

[Heyt]

I am getting the feeling harassement is only worth covering when it happens to women lately.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Why is it important for people to say "but this happens to men too" in a thread about this happening to women?

because men get raped too dudebro. whtcishet men.

 

[neoemonk]

How hard is it to get out of bed and act normal? Jesus.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Let me ask a question:
What would happen, if there was a female quota in game devolopment... let's say at least 30f/70m maybe?

(and not just "let's hire more female writers and pre-production design aritsts", but for every department!)

What would happen?

- Would this have a regulating effect on the male-chauvinism?
- Would guys quit and get into the automotive industry or some other female-safe employment-island?
- Would we get better or worse games?
- Would we get fewer games?
- Would AAA games be more diverse?
- Would there be more female gamers?
- Less male teenage gamers?!??

 

[PhoenixFyre]

On the contrary, it focuses on a more manageable section of a larger problem. Breaking issues into discrete components is a rational way to address bigger problems.

I can't see it that way. If you break it down by each subclass, it becomes a matter of "okay, they're dicks because (insert subclass here.) Now we must educate them on the (subclass).

And you have to do that for each individual reason you might be bullied.

Whereas if we look at it as a whole, it becomes clearer that the people being dicks, a huge percent of the time, are just latching on to the first thing that separates them. Then the issue isn't what subclass we assume that person hates, but they're just a vile human being and need an over all attitude adjustment. I think if you go back in history and look at the worst of human kind, the ones who target specific groups, its never really one group they hate. It's basically anyone different from them.

 

[The Librarian]

My problem is that I keep being told "DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! STOP THESE GUYS FROM ACCOSTING THESE WOMEN!!!" ... and I keep saying "WHERE!?!? I'M NOT SEEING THIS!!!?"

Ya I'd say and do something about females being rampantly accosted in my local area/work/school(s), rec areas, etc... but I just don't encounter this.

When it comes to issues like this, I usually post that when I go out I'm always afraid of getting harassed whenever I'm wearing a dress or a skirt (hell, even pants). I've gotten comments ranging from, "Hey, baby!" to "Nice tits!" to "Yo, I'd fuck that!"

As to what you're supposed to do it: Um, talk about it? Say it's not okay? If you ever see it happening in person, make sure you tell her it's not okay that he (and rarely she) harassed her like that. It can be as simple as that.

So their anecdotal evidence that it's happening EVERYWHERE is more legit than my anecdotal evidence?

And I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I believe her when she says that it's happening to her.

Don't put words in my mouth.

You're trying to sow doubt in her words and trying to invalidate what's she saying. You basically said, "Is she sure it's happening everywhere cause I don't see it." Women talk to each other. Sure, maybe not every everywhere, but in a lot of places? I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Mihos]

It seems like if there is a line between childish/awkward boys club mentalities and straight up criminal terroristic threatening, this incident isn't even close to defining that line.

I am all for debating whether or not there should exist fantasy dating sims, strip clubs, or whether we should let the kids look at 'group-on' ads

Spoiler

is the vibrator market really booming that much?!?!

, but a specific threat to a specific person is just wrong beyond debate.

 

[RMI]

ugh, this shit needs to stop.

I am getting the feeling harassement is only worth covering when it happens to women lately.

god damn it.

 

[Interfectum]

See I don't put that as "asking to be raped"... by what someone wears, however I would say "asking for attention." There's a massive difference there but when I see men cork their heads at women wearing ridiculously tight yoga pants i'm not chalking that up to a 'culture of rape.'

If they obviously cork their heads at work as to make other coworkers notice and join in then yes that is crossing the line. That is objectifying that woman among her peers possibly leading to a culture of rape and harassment at the office.

 

[VeryGooster]

Maddy Myers' quote: "You don’t really recover from this kind of abuse. You just change."

Jeez. :/

 

[ishibear]

If you see sexism or racism (no matter where you are), speak up and tell these assholes they're wrong. Of course you can't fucking police their thoughts or stop everyone in the world, no one's saying that. But what you CAN do is call them out whenever you see them. Whether it's online or in the office, or out a restaurant where the waitress is being harassed by creeps, just say SOMETHING.

The more people come out and stand up against people being ignorant, the less likely they'll feel comfortable being ignorant because they won't know whether they're gonna be shamed for their idiocy or not.

Change doesn't happen over night, no shit. But you can do something in your life to contribute to change instead of sitting around and going "omgash I can't believe they just said something racist/sexist/etc, and thought it was okay". It wouldn't be okay if they knew you had a problem with it, now would it?

 

[The Librarian]

Noone is calling anyone a liar, the point is that hateful tweets and postings are undeniably a common problem on the internet. The evidence is there in black and white for all to see.

That being said, there is far less evidence that workplaces within the industry are populated by extreme sexists and misogynists. If it was that pervasive, I assure you based on my experience at many studios over the years, people would get called on it.

Bottom line is that, at least in my opinion, those that spew hatred and bile on the internet are minority of a large population. The games industry itself is comparatively tiny, so anyone with such an extreme personality defecit would immediately be very apparent.

I trust women to talk about what they've experienced while working in the industry.

 

[Ponn]

One thing we CAN do, though, is to not dismiss the complaints of women in the industry, but rather listen to them, and let them know that you understand the issue, and that you will discuss it with friends, and engage those who don't get it.

I have had bosses that always say my door is open and listen to my issues and go "ahuh, ahem, ahuh i got you" Promise they will do something and talk about it. 3 months later you ask them about it and they go "refresh my memory again?" I can just imagine something as nuanced as this being even harder for people in positions to even want to deal with.

These discussions are talking about literally changing people's attitudes and thinking. I suppose kind of like any other shift in thinking or acceptance it will just take perseverance and maybe even a generation or two to fully change. Looking and hearing younger generations playing games like CoD and reactions in community forums unfortunately makes it seem futile. Those communities just feed into each other plus you have the bigger picture of sexism and misogyny being something learned in a home environment.

I'm not saying these are problems relegated strictly to certain communities but sometimes I feel the discussions being brought up aren't being heard by a big enough audience or more so being "preaching to the choir" What I mean is are some of these biggest culprits of sexism and even rape culture even reading these articles on polygon? How are these groups being brought into the discussion?

 

[besada]

Whereas if we look at it as a whole, it becomes clearer that the people being dicks, a huge percent of the time, are just latching on to the first thing that separates them. Then the issue isn't what subclass we assume that person hates, but they're just a vile human being and need an over all attitude adjustment. I think if you go back in history and look at the worst of human kind, the ones who target specific groups, its never really one group they hate. It's basically anyone different from them.

This is not true. I have given you the benefit of the doubt through this thread, but you have just attempted to suggest that misogyny doesn't exist, which is ridiculous.

 

[Mesoian]

Let me ask a question:
What would happen, if there was a female quota in game devolopment... let's say at least 30f/70m maybe?

(and not just "let's hire more female writers and pre-production design aritsts", but for every department!)

What would happen?

- Would this have a regulating effect on the male-chauvinism?
- Would guys quit and get into the automotive industry or some other female-safe employment-island?
- Would we get better or worse games?
- Would we get fewer games?
- Would AAA games be more diverse?
- Would there be more female gamers?
- Less male teenage gamers?!??

Maybe
Probably not
Who knows
Definitely not
Probably
Absolutely not.

So let's give it a try.

 

[Dragonborn]

Laws should exist that help protect people from gender discrimination in employment and in general, and violators of those laws should be held to account.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's already laws preventing Gender discrimination and sexual abuse in the work place.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

The other day, I had my mother over to my house and we sort of caught up on each others interests. She isn't technosavvy, in fact she's almost completely computer illiterate (tablet form computers saved her from being totally computer illiterate - but that's a topic of another discussion). So, while discussing what's been going on in my life, I was telling her about a Virtual Reality developers group I run out of Houston that has monthly meetings, and explaining how happy I am that it's been steadily growing. So she asks me, "do any women show up to these meetings?" And I thought for a second and told her that, yes, we have had a young woman who has shown up for a couple of meetings in a row now and how encouraging it is (more because she's very young - in her early teens - than because she's a woman).

My mom didn't believe me. We actually had a conversation about women in technology and I was telling her about female engineers I met at Steam Dev Days and she was flabbergasted. "I thought computers were for boys" she said.

My mother is 65 years old, so she has an old school mindset. But that right there is the crux of the problem. This is a systematic problem - when these women are being harassed at work, it is a symptom of a problem that was born when they were children. My sister has a daughter - my sister is very educated (PhD candidate) and her daughter is incredibly gifted, and 5 years old. We've actually had conversations about the role of little girls in technology, since my niece seems to be drawn to computers. Our conclusion? Little girls get "dumb" toys like Barbies, while little boys get video games and computers. It is an early segregation that leads to all this.

Luckily, this is changing. It's not uncommon to see little girls with ipads or iphones or whatever. We will reap the benefits of technosavvy women being common place in 20 years when these current kids are growing up. Societal change takes a long time to happen. If we want to fix this problem, the solution is to get girls involved in technology at as young an age as possible.

And we need more than just women fighting this in the work place. The 'implied' role. Ask a women doctor how many times she had been referred to as a nurse. We all have to fight it and challenge these assertions and assumptions. On all levels.

My daughter is just as likely to hold a dinosaur toy as a baby doll in her arms. And it was good to read that recent thread about 'giving away your daughter'. Some of these things help challenge my own understanding.

 

[Corronchilejano]

You go on Facebook?

I've never seen someone threaten anyone with bodily harm on Facebook and not receive his/her deserved comeuppance.

 

[Etnos]

The internet needs to find a way to have acountability for what we say. Saying shit like that face to face can lead to serious consecuences, cowards spilling venon behind social networks need to learn that lesson.

 

[Scar Mortico]

Anita Sarkeeson videos don't have comments, and the people who are usually the most vile in conversations like this one usually lambaste her about it because they don't have somewhere specific to spew their vitriol.

But yeah, a pretty good example was that Giant Bomb hiring fiasco that happened a few weeks ago. The women who expressed disapproval with them hiring two more straight white males (which is not the point of this discussion so let's leave that aside) were publically harassed for almost a week afterwards. Those tweets are still there, I'd suggest you go look through them because that shit is ALWAYS happening.

Shit, I have a few friends who are professional cosplayers and their inboxes are filled DAILY with creeps from the internet talking about about how they want to "lick their thighs" and other such bullshit. A friend of mine posts all of her more creepy OK_cupid responses from guys who think they're entitled to sex because they responded to an email.

It's EVERYWHERE. Guys just don't have to see it and can stay pretty oblivious to it all unless it's made apparent.

I think I remember hearing about that.

So assuming this is all true, what is it that I, a straight white male can do about it? I'm not exactly an activist for anything and I'm more of the peace maker type. The whole peace, love and happiness and far out type of guy you know? XD

 

[Krejlooc]

I think people think such harassment has to be overt. Here's a recent example I noticed the other day:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=858835

once the gif of the woman with red hair was posted, a number of posts dedicated to "Who is that girl" and sexual innuendos popped up. What did that have to do with the conversation? It's subtle, but it happens all the time.

 

[The Technomancer]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's already laws preventing Gender discrimination and sexual abuse in the work place.

It varies. Even laws on the book aren't enough in this kind of dynamic though, IMO this is a fundamentally cultural problem. Just because you could theoretically sue your employer doesn't mean that the damage from both the harassment and the future harassment that you will face as a result of pursing it isn't...well, damage.

Our sexual and gender politics are really fucked up. Yes we're better than "the Middle East" like some people like to trot out, no we aren't demanding our women literally stay at home and wear burqas. But there are some real fundamental cracks in how we culturally treat gender dynamics

 

[The Librarian]

It varies. Even laws on the book aren't enough in this kind of dynamic though, IMO this is a fundamentally cultural problem. Just because you could theoretically sue your employer doesn't mean that the damage from both the harassment and the future harassment that you will face as a result of pursing it isn't...well, damage.

Our sexual and gender politics are really fucked up. Yes we're better than "the Middle East" like some people like to trot out, no we aren't demanding our women literally stay at home and wear burqas. But there are some real fundamental cracks in how we culturally treat gender dynamics

Precisely.

 

[Etnos]

Let me ask a question:
What would happen, if there was a female quota in game devolopment... let's say at least 30f/70m maybe?

(and not just "let's hire more female writers and pre-production design aritsts", but for every department!)

What would happen?

- Would this have a regulating effect on the male-chauvinism?
- Would guys quit and get into the automotive industry or some other female-safe employment-island?
- Would we get better or worse games?
- Would we get fewer games?
- Would AAA games be more diverse?
- Would there be more female gamers?
- Less male teenage gamers?!??

We would have less of a caveman society, isn't that good enough?

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

Regarding those seeking ways to take action -- I think men, including myself, can be proactive about this in two ways:

- reconsidering our own behavior and language
- calling out examples of blatant sexism and/or harassment targeted at either gender within our community

It's time for the awful concept of "White Knighting" to die. Assuming a man calls out harassment or defends a woman solely for the purposes of securing an advantage diminishes all parties involved in a confrontation.

If you see harassment on social media, report the user. Take the time. Speak out against them. Doing nothing is tacit approval of the harassment. Take pride in being accused of defending someone.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I don't think this problem is specific to the games industry at all. Erin Andrews had a guy use a camera on a wire under her door watching her undress. Women in the public eye just get targeted by creeps.

 

[Mesoian]

I think I remember hearing about that.

So assuming this is all true, what is it that I, a straight white male can do about it? I'm not exactly an activist for anything and I'm more of the peace maker type. The whole peace, love and happiness and far out type of guy you know? XD

Next time you see a woman on twitter getting called all sorts of bullshit for stating her opinion, you fire back and those people and say "What you're doing is not okay."

This is an issue that needs people fighting. People aren't going to have an epiphany of, "man, I'm being a real asshole," they need to be told and shown.

 

[stufte]

You're trying to sow doubt in her words and trying to invalidate what's she saying. You basically said, "Is she sure it's happening everywhere cause I don't see it." Women talk to each other. Sure, maybe not every everywhere, but in a lot of places? I wouldn't be surprised.

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

 

[Krejlooc]

Maddy Myers' quote: "You don’t really recover from this kind of abuse. You just change."

Jeez. :/

More depressing is realizing how many women you know in real life who have been subject to sexual abuse. Even crazier when you realize there are undoubtedly some who never admit it to anyone else.

 

[Avari]

While I appreciate the fact that this article is written and bringing important topics to light, you know what? Nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

We're all going to post about how awful it is. We're all going to say that things should change. And twenty years later we'll be saying the same thing. There will always be people who post these hateful things. There will always be trolls, sexists, racists, and bigots. With the nature of the internet this will NEVER go away. Ever. Even if people knew the name and address of the people who posted these things, this will exist.

I guess the grand point I'm making is that these articles are pointless except for a place to vent for the author (which doesn't make them pointless if it makes the author feel better, I suppose).

That may be cold, but I just don't see what this accomplishes, at least on the internet side of things.

Uh. So we shouldn't say anything at all? You're advocating ignoring the problem even if you agree with it.

Sorry, but that's not the right thing to do.

Exactly. Not only that the original poster is simply completely wrong. Every major societal change (women voting, segregation, interracial marriage, gay marriage etc) had people saying 'that's just they way things are/ nothing is going to change'. Things did change because people didn't shut up about it and didn't accept the status quo as immutable. Do you know why gaf is generally more free of bigots and sexists then other forums - it's because when someone posts crap like that others do not accept it and call them on it.

 

[shandy706]

Maddy Myers' quote: "You don’t really recover from this kind of abuse. You just change."

Jeez. :/

I see the reasoning behind that comment. Although, having a wife with CPTSD, I can't imagine it permanently scaring someone like direct verbal/physical abuse.

That is, if she's just talking about online/not first person abuse.

Who knows though...it may just cause that kind of damage to some people. I can't imagine letting online comments hurting me personally..well I wouldn't let it, but that doesn't mean another person has that strength.

I do see threats to ones life, if you're an easily accessible public figure, certainly bringing something traumatizing.

 

[Clear]

I trust women to talk about what they've experienced while working in the industry.

As I wrote, its not that I'm doubting the veracity of their experiences, its just that I feel a hard line needs to be drawn between problems occurring within industry workplaces, and those that flood in from the internet.

I feel like the two are being conflated and in so doing is creating a perception that the treatment of women within the industry by male-coworkers is exceptionally bad.

Creating such an impression is doing noone any favours, particularly if its discouraging young women from bringing their talents to bear within the business.

 

[The Librarian]

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

Then why are so many women saying it IS affecting the industry as a whole industry? People experience different things. Some women experience harassment wherever they go; some receive barely any (which is good to hear). It doesn't mean that the problem doesn't affect the entire industry.

 

[Eleventy_Million]

How can we go about changing the culture surrounding this?

 

[Anjin M]

About fifteen years ago, it was still (slanderous but) appropriate-enough to call people "fags" and say "that's gay". Today it's barely used because of such pro-gay movements and changing attitudes. I'm *super* generalizing here; but the point is to get it out there and learn that misogyny IS offensive, it can definitely hurt people more than you think, and it's innapropriate and damaging in the long run (for the person and for what they represent).

Education is a surprisingly effective tool on its own, understanding people and the world is more effective than coming with a "five step solution to eliminating sexism" ---- not to get too cheesy, but knowledge is power.

Quoting in complete agreement. When I was young (through high school really), I used to say some of the most horrific things. Stuff I am embarassed about to this day. It wasn't until I got to college and started learning about how my treatment of different races, genders, and sexual orientations was damaging to myself and others. Education is the most important thing here. And we might just be a few people on an internet forum, but not speaking out won't educate anyone.

 

[Krejlooc]

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

At this point, there is enough anecdotal evidence from far and wide to realize that this is a problem with the industry at large. Yes, your anecdotal evidence proves that not every situation is like this, but it doesn't disprove that the problem is systematic.

I think the reason you're catching flak is that your argument is rooted more on trying to pin down just how widespread this problem is, rather than how to solve the behavior.

 

[Bigmac1910]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

I'll tell you what needs to be done.

The people who get hiring level jobs (producers/ creative directors etc.) in the gaming industry. Should really make an effort to hire more women, and actively discourage sexual harassment within the work place. Unfortunately a lot of men are intimidated by smart women, so it will take some time.

On the flip side of the coin, I also feel that more women have to start their own companies and do the hiring, so they can be in charge and at the same time also work on these issues.

EDIT: This really needs to be a collaborative effort from both women and men, it will never work if only one side is going to try and do it.

 

[Mellahan]

How can we go about changing the culture surrounding this?

It starts with raising awareness. I think we're on the right path there... beyond that, though, it's a process that could take years.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think people think such harassment has to be overt. Here's a recent example I noticed the other day:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=858835

once the gif of the woman with red hair was posted, a number of posts dedicated to "Who is that girl" and sexual innuendos popped up. What did that have to do with the conversation? It's subtle, but it happens all the time.

Oh this shit happens all the time on GAF to. Its not overt, so its mostly gotten away with (if the mods really went after that stuff it would be an absolute bloodbath, and I don't think they should regardless) but just about any discussion about anything involving or related to an attractive woman produces a sub-discussion about her appearance and sexuality

 

[Mesoian]

Yes I am dubious of her claim because I talk to women too. I've also been in the industry for 10 years, worked with many women at different companies all over the US, and have yet to see or hear from my colleagues of this kind of harassment.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying she's lying about her expirence.

Nor do I think she's trying to deceive people, I think she genuinely feels like it's rampant.

I'm saying that she's conflating her experiences with being a problem endemic of the video game industry as a whole.

If she's allowed to use her personal experiences to talk on the subject, why do you feel that am I not allowed to?

Alright, try this.

As an experiment, ask a female employee that you are on good terms with about the steps she has to take when she's going out on the town. Specifically how she has to act while taking mass transit or being out in heavily populated areas.

I guarantee it'll be eye opening. Because you're right, it's not just the games' industry. It's fucking everyday life.

And the problem is that guys get off on being the thing that mitigates the shitty behavior that women have to deal with. I remember going down to the bus stop to walk my friend/coworker up to our building because she was getting cat called by tons of dudes every day and getting off on being the big strong man who made all of the bad men flee. At the time, I wasn't yelling at them to shape up because my presence made her feel safer and that was shitty of me.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

That the male colleagues would even consider saying such things is both disturbing and pathetic simultaneously. It makes them seem less misogynistic in the traditional "ole' boys" sense (i.e.. write-off and talk condescendingly to female employees--placing them in positions where they do not pose a threat or have much influence), and more misogynistic in a creepier antisocial rapist-like way.