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[JoeInky]

Exactly my point.

It's the "this is why we can't have nice things" argument.

The sociopaths are ruining everything for the rest of us, but for the greater good, it may be necessary.

No, fuck that.

 

[Nozem]

I was watching the Dota tournament stream on Twitch this weekend, where one of the analysts was a woman. Everytime she said something the chat exploded with full on hate. Kind of shocking really.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I've noticed that "Yeah but where are your solutions?" seems to be a common refrain to shut down all discussion about things that make people uncomfortable to talk about.

Is this a concerted thing or did people individually realize it's the best way to keep the status quo going?

Long ago before I fucking listened and understood what the problem really was, I'd say that because I had no answers and would rather dismiss the issue.

There ARE answers though, they're just not easy and involve you sticking your neck out every chance you get to get someone, ANYONE, to change or want to change.

 

[shadowkat]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

So ignore it until it goes away?

Or perhaps having an open dialogue that will bring forth change?

 

[Frank_Tha_Noob]

Use your privilege (assuming you are a white male) to speak up and help. Women routinely get ignored, their opinions stuffed away - but you can help. Use your privilege against this kind of shit.

You act like this only happens to women, it doesn't. If you're an easily offended type of person of course trolls will come after you.

 

[Jetfire]

Sadly nothing probably will be done until something really severe or drastic happens because of all of this kind of harassment. Then all the companies will hop on board into nipping it in the butt.

Drastic things happen all the time. Everything in that article qualifies, to me at least, as "drastic." No one's done anything, partly because it hasn't done any damage to the people with the most money and influence in the industry.

 

[Petrae]

You're only looking at the one angle - the other angle is that NOBODY would post on the internet anymore.

General, real-life productivity would increase 1000% across the board!

(I kid...)

I'm playing extreme Devil's Advocate here. The point I'm trying to make is that it's anonymity that's empowering these psychos.

I see Facebook-enabled comments with real names attached to them that are pretty vicious, too. People just don't care, anonymous or not. Perhaps it's the fact that talking on the Internet is more empowering than saying something to someone's face. I mean, what's the offended person going to do?

Honestly, police should have a way to trace comments and investigate-- especially in a perceived threat situation. But where does law enforcement draw the line? It's tough.

 

[Gaz_RB]

You act like this only happens to women, it doesn't. If you're an easily offended type of person of course trolls will come after you.

This is so naive and even ignorant. Woman aren't attacked by trolls simply because they are more easily offended.

 

[Goldmund]

Saying "men experience harassment too" is a way of undercutting the importance of the issue. Sure, men do experience harassment online (it's the nature of the internet), but it's *worse* for women.

That sounds like it's undercutting the importance of the issue, as well. It's not a question of "more" or "less", but what the basis and quality of that harassment is.

 

[obauma]

I've noticed that "Yeah but where are your solutions?" seems to be a common refrain to shut down all discussion about things that make people uncomfortable to talk about.

Is this a concerted thing or did people individually realize it's the best way to keep the status quo going?

These comments annoy me. Solutions? Don't allow for hatespeech in comments. It's not a technical problem, there are sites that moderate their comments, it's NOT difficult -> solution.

 

[The Librarian]

Talking about these issues makes it easier for women to speak out when they experience harassment.

That sounds like it's undercutting the importance of the issue, as well. It's not a question of "more" or "less", but what the basis and quality of that harassment is.

This is a thread about how it affects women.

 

[Einbroch]

Until there's a much more viable option to use, this is the best option.

Is it? She says it's getting worse. And some of these trolls are using articles such as these as fuel.

I don't know how to do it better other than getting law enforcement involved. Until there's a punishment (law, society, etc), nothing will change. And anonymous Twitter users "shaming" the anonymous troll is not enough.

 

[Deified Data]

Why is it important for people to say "but this happens to men too" in a thread about this happening to women?

 

[Interfectum]

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!? Do you have an answer?

Anyone have an idea, besides writing on gaming editorials?

You can do a lot, honestly.

When you hear harassment online, call it out. When game designers blatantly put sexist content in their games take them to task via social media. Raise awareness among your friends and family.

 

[Mesoian]

Sure, and they will tell you to buy a gun or mace. No court is going to chase an anonymous person on the internet who sent a text.

Ah, that's more than legal grounds to supena the telcom the number refers to. The police have gotten warrants for less serious crimes with far less to go on. Even if they aren't able to find them immediately, the effort is done, people aren't just sitting on their hands.

And no, the police will not tell you to buy a gun or mace. Come on.

When did I say "let's talk about games" or "back down from a threat"

Sure, we can talk about it. We've been talking about it for 4 years. It's accomplished nothing. The problem is still essentially the same, and no on has offered a real solution or advanced the dialogue.

The real solution is actual prosecution. And this conversation isn't just about you, i'm pulling in all of the people who try to shut down the conversation because this is a video game forum.

You can do a lot, honestly.

When you hear harassment online, call it out. When game designers blatantly put sexist content in their games take them to task via social media. Raise awareness among your friends and family.

And most of all, not have your attitude be "god, this shit again, why bother doing anything if change isn't going to happen tomorrow?"

 

[The Faceless Master]

Remove internet anonymity and show everyone who posts a comment or sends an Email's real name, address and phone #.

I guarantee that 90% of the horrible comments would end immediately.

The other 10% would be in jail or served subpoenas by the end of the week.

have you heard of or seen The Facebook or The Twitter or The Youtube?

 

[dLMN8R]

Articles like this have helped clearly identify sexism and other elements of prejudice in my own life, and I'm thankful for them that I've been able to change things at least in my own personal bubble.

I can't imagine how difficult it is to be in this situation, but I hope that more awareness does help things improve.

 

[bluepolicebox]

Talking about these issues makes it easier for women to speak out when they experience harassment.

I don't know...based on some of the responses I see in this thread and others on the subject.

 

[mentallyinept]

The e-mails / posts in the OP. Those are not coming from other developers right? Just dumbass people on the internet? Right???

Nothing in the article indicates that they are coming from coworkers.

What is implied is the "toughen up" talk comes from some coworkers.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Why is it important for people to say "but this happens to men too" in a thread about this happening to women?

Because some men can't have any discussion happening that isn't about them.

 

[Frank_Tha_Noob]

This is so naive and even ignorant. Woman aren't attacked by trolls simply because they are more easily offended.

Then why is she making this article? I'm not even saying that women are easily offended, but that the author is.

 

[J10]

"we"? The only thing in common with these assholes is we consume some of the same media.
No doubt it's a serious problem that has to be dealt with, but i don't feel like associating with this kind of people in any way, shape or form.

"WE" are better than this.

"They" don't care that "we" are better than them.

Christ, read between the lines. They are we, like it or not. They're part of our communities. They're here on this forum. We've already been associated with them so it's partially on us to do something about it. Read the article. One dude anonymously rape threatens a woman, and now she's suspicious of all of us because it could be someone she interacts with regularly and not even know it. We're not islands.

 

[Jetfire]

That sounds like it's undercutting the importance of the issue, as well. It's not a question of "more" or "less", but what the basis and quality of that harassment is.

The basis is sexism. The quality is toxic. The frequency is "I can't clear out my inbox faster than the rape and death threats stream in." When the difference between "more" and "less" is "a few years ago, that one time" and "every day" that's really goddamn important to address.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

You can do a lot, honestly.

When you hear harassment online, call it out. When game designers blatantly put sexist content in their games take them to task via social media. Raise awareness among your friends and family.

Yep. I emailed Wolfenstein: The New Order's devs and said while I liked the game, the sex in the game was weird, misplaced, and definitely done just to satisfy straight white males instead of having any significance. I doubt they care THAT much but when you can contact devs about things that bother you, someone's listening. What they do after the fact varies, but you gotta get it out there.

 

[Krejlooc]

The worst thing about the internet at the moment is the widespread belief that feminists somehow have gained power over men.

Compounded by the belief that feminism and militant feminism are one and the same and inseparable.

 

[kswiston]

You act like this only happens to women, it doesn't. If you're an easily offended type of person of course trolls will come after you.

When using voice chat in a game as a male, can you reasonably expect to make it through several gaming sessions without hearing "Show us your dick"?

 

[stufte]

"The Myth: The game industry is a field men are drawn to more than women."

How is this a myth? Sure there are plenty of women in the industry and looking to get into the industry, but how is it untrue that more men are drawn to the field than women?

"A look at the YouTube comments for her 2010 PAX East panel is stomach-churning. A shocking number of them personally attack the women of Girlfight."

Youtube comments are vile no matter what video is posted. Doesn't make this particular situation less shitty, but it's not like youtube commenters aren't equal opportunity assholes.

I have literally NEVER run into men in this industry that act the way this woman describes. I'm not at all calling her a liar, but the way she talks about it its as if this happens EVERYWHERE in the industry, and it absolutely does not.

Again. NOT saying that she hasn't experienced these things, but jesus, anecdotal evidence all up in that article.

 

[Mass Effect]

"Women are the niggers of gender," the email said. "If you killed yourself, I wouldn’t even fuck the corpse."

I blinked at my phone, fighting simultaneous urges to hurl my phone across the room in anger and cry. Later that day, someone texted me my address — telling me they’d "See me when I least expected it."

Wow what? Are these comments coming from people actually working in the industry or readers/gamers?

Remove internet anonymity and show everyone who posts a comment or sends an Email's real name, address and phone #.

I guarantee that 90% of the horrible comments would end immediately.

The other 10% would be in jail or served subpoenas by the end of the week.

HAHAHA that's what you think. I assure you it wouldn't be the case. People just don't give a fuck.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Why is it important for people to say "but this happens to men too" in a thread about this happening to women?

It's the partner statement to "Not all of us are like that!" If we share in the designation of being victims, then the task becomes gargantuan that no individual person can really do anything about, so why try. After all, it happens to all of us, so I, as a man, need you to fix my issue before I come close to yours.

 

[Dice//]

My issue is that this discussion really would interest me, if only we could move past this first bit. I'm quite OK with assuming that the games industry is a hotbed of rampant misogyny, I won't question the idea that it's an utterly toxic environment for women. My problem is, with that issue identified, what happens next?

I don't think I've read any of these articles that even attempt to offer a solution. Should dev studios have a mandatory quota on women to ensure their workforce has equal representation? Should studios that fail to protect their female employees be fined? Should women of the industry organise a strike? Boycott a certain game / publisher felt to be the most egregious offender?

I don't have the fucking foggiest, and so I'd love to read some solutions, and the potential pitfalls to those solutions. Rather than giving me empty fluff like this:


So, I've listened and I'm convinced. How do we 'make the industry safer'? How can I, as a consumer, assist in this matter?

Regardless, I understand that this issue isn't being dissected and a discussed solely for my interest, so I'll keep my grumbling largely to myself as suggested.

About fifteen years ago, it was still (slanderous but) appropriate-enough to call people "fags" and say "that's gay". Today it's barely used because of such pro-gay movements and changing attitudes. I'm *super* generalizing here; but the point is to get it out there and learn that misogyny IS offensive, it can definitely hurt people more than you think, and it's innapropriate and damaging in the long run (for the person and for what they represent).

Education is a surprisingly effective tool on its own, understanding people and the world is more effective than coming with a "five step solution to eliminating sexism" ---- not to get too cheesy, but knowledge is power.

 

[JoeInky]

I was watching the Dota tournament stream on Twitch this weekend, where one of the analysts was a woman. Everytime she said something the chat exploded with full on hate. Kind of shocking really.

The larger a hardcore fanbase a game has, the more likely it is that those people will dislike women simply because they feel that they're attention whores that are only getting into gaming because it's popular now, considering they probably had little contact with girls playing games when they grew up or were put down for having it as a hobby during there school years.


I don't think it's really shocking to see it in a game like dota 2, that sort of niche hardcore game is full of those types of people.

 

[Orayn]

So, I've listened and I'm convinced. How do we 'make the industry safer'? How can I, as a consumer, assist in this matter?

As consumers, our reach extends as far as the other consumers we interact with.

If you catch people demonstrating shitty behavior, call them out on it. If you know someone who's wishy-washy on the issue of harassment, try to convince them that it is actually a big deal when the topic comes up. Neither is a dramatic, surefire solution, but if more people tried we might see things get better.

 

[remnant]

I never addressed this, so...

Remember the kid in northern Wales who got arrested after sending joking threats to one of his classmates? That needs to start happening. There's a very real line between internet ribbing and actual very real threats and we need to start making examples out of people to show that this sort of thing isn't okay. Whoever texted this woman should be locked up, full stop, and his face plastered all over the news to tell people that you can't use the internet as your consequence-less hate machine.

Police were only able to do that because the classmates knew him personally. How is the police supposed to track random names on the interent?

Even now, with the NSA monitoring massive internet traffic, they can't do it. How will local police do it? How will that be constitutional?

but hey, atleast it more than writing to polygon.

These comments annoy me. Solutions? Don't allow for hatespeech in comments. It's not a technical problem, there are sites that moderate their comments, it's NOT difficult -> solution.

That wouldn't solve any of the issues Brianna stated in her article.

 

[licktheenvelope]

Since we're using made up percentages that is 100% not true. Look around in every day life, there is rampant sexism and racism and all other forms of discrimination daily.

Rampant is a strong word. Must depend on where you live.

 

[Lime]

I can sort of agree in the sense that harassment seems to be a general problem in the industry. Women seem to get targeted more, but probably also because they pose an easier target for these assholes. I mean, the goal isn't that woman just receive the same amount of harassment as men, right? It's that all sorts of harassment stops.

It obfuscates the discussion and moves the target and solutions away from something that is specific to a certain group of people. Not only that, as various testimonies, research, and experiences tell us, women do in fact experience more harassment and exclusion based on their identities as women. Therefore, saying "men are oppressed too" pollutes and negates the discussion of how the games industry and culture treat women, as it not only moves the discussion away from specific characteristics of said harassment, but it also negates the fact that women are in fact on average much more the object of discrimination than (white straight) men in the games industry and culture.

That sounds like it's undercutting the importance of the issue, as well. It's not a question of "more" or "less", but what the basis and quality of that harassment is.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Rampant is a strong word. Must depend on where you live.

Yeah, sexism is very regional. For example, it's huge where I live, on planet Earth, but it might not be that bad on Mars.

 

[Terrified]

Why is it important for people to say "but this happens to men too" in a thread about this happening to women?

An attempt to shut down debate, much like...

 

[Mesoian]

Christ, read between the lines. They are we, like it or not. They're part of our communities. They're here on this forum. We've already been associated with them so it's partially on us to do something about it. Read the article. One dude anonymously rape threatens a woman, and now she's suspicious of all of us because it could be someone she interacts with regularly and not even know it. We're not islands.

Yes and "we", here, now, are calling that guy out on his bullshit. No one here is saying that this behavior is okay. Hell, I'm saying that guy should be arrested. He's anonymous, we don't have a specific person that we can point to and say, "this guy does not represent us". But we can firmly point at the act, the action taken and say, "No, fuck this line of behavior, this is not who we are".

I'm saying that right now. This is not who "we" are. And anyone who thinks that that sort of thing is acceptable is "them", and I don't support "them" in the least.

 

[Netherscourge]

I see Facebook-enabled comments with real names attached to them that are pretty vicious, too. People just don't care, anonymous or not. Perhaps it's the fact that talking on the Internet is more empowering than saying something to someone's face. I mean, what's the offended person going to do?

Honestly, police should have a way to trace comments and investigate-- especially in a perceived threat situation. But where does law enforcement draw the line? It's tough.

Terrorist threats would be a good start for the police.

Subpoenaing ISPs for the owner(s) of the IP address of the originating post is the next step.

Then you interview everyone attached to the IP address, and if necessary, you subpoena the IT departments to turn over the computer names/address that logged into the company's routers.

You'll find the person or the computer used to send the message eventually. Most of these idiots don't understand proxies and maintain static computers and logins.

You won't catch them all, but you'll get a big chunk of them.

 

[SmokyDave]

About fifteen years ago, it was still (slanderous but) appropriate-enough to call people "fags" and say "that's gay". Today it's barely used because of such pro-gay movements and changing attitudes. I'm *super* generalizing here; but the point is to get it out there and learn that misogyny IS offensive, it can definitely hurt people more than you think, and it's innapropriate and damaging in the long run (for the person and for what they represent).

Education is a surprisingly effective tool on its own, understanding people and the world is more effective than coming with a "five step solution to eliminating sexism" ---- not to get too cheesy, but knowledge is power.

I had meant to mention education. I feel it's the most effective by far, but also the slowest solution.

Dax made a good point about women speaking up making it easier for women to speak up. I guess that alone justifies the content of the article, regardless of the lack of any sort of 'how do we fix this shit?' epilogue.

As consumers, our reach extends as far as the other consumers we interact with.

If you catch people demonstrating shitty behavior, call them out on it. If you know someone who's wishy-washy on the issue of harassment, try to convince them that it is actually a big deal when the topic comes up. Neither is a dramatic, surefire solution, but if more people tried we might see things get better.

Where sexism is concerned, I've never taken issue with calling out the behaviour of people around me. There is a point where I don't feel comfortable talking on behalf of women though, no matter how well I might think I'm able to empathise with a situation.

 

[licktheenvelope]

"The Myth: The game industry is a field men are drawn to more than women."

How is this a myth? Sure there are plenty of women in the industry and looking to get into the industry, but how is it untrue that more men are drawn to the field than women?

"A look at the YouTube comments for her 2010 PAX East panel is stomach-churning. A shocking number of them personally attack the women of Girlfight."

Youtube comments are vile no matter what video is posted. Doesn't make this particular situation less shitty, but it's not like youtube commenters aren't equal opportunity assholes.

I have literally NEVER run into men in this industry that act the way this woman describes. I'm not at all calling her a liar, but the way she talks about it its as if this happens EVERYWHERE in the industry, and it absolutely does not.

Again. NOT saying that she hasn't experienced these things, but jesus, anecdotal evidence all up in that article.

That's a problem I run into too. I keep being told this is happening in all industries, in all walks of life... and I just don't see it anywhere I go. Maybe it's where I go (?) but this 'culture of rape' is a mystery to me.

 

[Dragonborn]

My issue is that this discussion really would interest me, if only we could move past this first bit. I'm quite OK with assuming that the games industry is a hotbed of rampant misogyny, I won't question the idea that it's an utterly toxic environment for women. My problem is, with that issue identified, what happens next?

I don't think I've read any of these articles that even attempt to offer a solution. Should dev studios have a mandatory quota on women to ensure their workforce has equal representation? Should studios that fail to protect their female employees be fined? Should women of the industry organise a strike? Boycott a certain game / publisher felt to be the most egregious offender?

I don't have the fucking foggiest, and so I'd love to read some solutions, and the potential pitfalls to those solutions. Rather than giving me empty fluff like this:


So, I've listened and I'm convinced. How do we 'make the industry safer'? How can I, as a consumer, assist in this matter?

Regardless, I understand that this issue isn't being dissected and a discussed solely for my interest, so I'll keep my grumbling largely to myself as suggested.

You're right. The biggest issue is that there's really nothing that can be done. The harassers have to stop harassing, that's the only way it'll ever stop. But again, there's nothing that can be done to make them stop, at least nothing that can be done from us. The only thing we can do is condemn the harassers and hope they eventually realize it's wrong but anonymity means that's likely never going to happen.

 

[Frank_Tha_Noob]

When using voice chat in a game as a male, can you reasonably expect to make it through several gaming sessions without hearing "Show us your dick"?

Women won't ever be called a "cock sucking faggot", as I mentioned before harassment is something that everyone gets on the internet. It's not a women issue, and it's not a big deal. Just ignore them, and they'll go away.

 

[PhoenixFyre]

Saying "men experience harassment too" is a way of undercutting the importance of the issue. Sure, men do experience harassment online (it's the nature of the internet), but it's *worse* for women.

This is going to get oddly personal, so if anyone doesn't want to know a bunch of personal, probably weird shit about a stranger, that's cool, skip this post.

Hell, I'll even spoiler tag it for courtesy.

Back in highschool I used to write a blog about being

Spoiler

bisexual

and the abuse that brought within what should have been a safe environment. Beatings, constant mockery, and pretty much complete isolation. I told the story about the time a friend found out and made a petition to have me removed from the class and asked the teacher to sign it. She didn't because it would "get her in trouble."

I got some crazy comments, threats, and an insane level of stupid responses.

Stupidly, I kept the blog going and even talked about how I "suffer" from

Spoiler

gender dysphoria

(this is the bit you probably don't want to know.)

It was no different. Same threats, same comments, same jokes, same stupidity. They matched pretty closely to what both male and female industry figures, and indeed every celebrity from every walk of life has talked about receiving.

All these examples from every type of human being imaginable with every type differing trait. The one common theme seems to be going public. Reachable. Attainable. I really don't see how women get it worse. Or more. The threats seem personal. They seem tailor made for what makes that person unique. They do for everyone who gets bullied like this. Because the only weapon the bully has is what separates them from the one they bully.

 

[Goldmund]

Talking about these issues makes it easier for women to speak out when they experience harassment.

This is a thread about how it affects women.

That's what I'm getting at. Even if women got less harassment than men (which isn't the case, as this opinion piece illustrates), it's an issue that needs to be addressed; the problem wouldn't be the volume, the quality of the harassment, its intent, would remain, aspects that delineate a far more sinister origin than is the case with men harassing men. Your post seemed to suggest it's worse for women simply because it's "more".

EDIT: Wow, so many people misreading the intent of my post. I guess I worded it poorly.

 

[dLMN8R]

Also: It's really sad how some men in this thread are so sensitive to being ignored. The second something isn't about them, they need to make it about them.

They're so insecure in their privilege and dominance that the second that they feel like anything remotely threatens that privilege, they need to make sure that the world again revolves around them like it always does.


Every single person in this thread giving any sort of statement like "but it happens to men too" is an example of this.

Who gives a fuck?

Why do you think anyone cares that it happens to men too in this specific context?

The article is about women, and the treatment of women in gaming. Can you just shut the fuck up for a second and let the article speak for itself instead of trying to always bring your own fucking gender into it? Are you really that insecure?

Don't you realize that the people doing that are contributing to the problem? That women who are harassed don't feel safe to bring it up because men will just try to dominate the discussion again?

 

[Interfectum]

That's a problem I run into too. I keep being told this is happening in all industries, in all walks of life... and I just don't see it anywhere I go. Maybe it's where I go (?) but this 'culture of rape' is a mystery to me.

Honest question, are you a woman? Because if not there is a good chance you will not see it.

 

[licktheenvelope]

Yeah, sexism is very regional. For example, it's huge where I live, on planet Earth, but it might not be that bad on Mars.

I'm talking about the threatening 'culture of rape' that's propagated these days. I just don't see that in everyday life. Again, maybe it's where I go/live?

 

[obauma]

to be more concrete on the "solutions" part.

I think a lawsuit needs to happen where companies are made responsible if they allow hatespeech in their comment sections. Could happen in the EU. companies will of course claim not to be responsible for things that are written by other people on their sites. however a court could rule that by allowing for a comment to remain on a site actually makes owners responsible for the content. It's all about valuing the individual right not to be thd victim of hatespeech more than a private companys interest to not have to spend money to fix this shit because they can't bd bothered. Such a verdict would clense the net pretty drastically because site owners wouldn't want to be draged into lawsuits and risk costly fines.

there you go, solution. now we just need someone to go to court!

 

[Mesoian]

Police were only able to do that because the classmates knew him personally. How is the police supposed to track random names on the interent?

Even now, with the NSA monitoring massive internet traffic, they can't do it. How will local police do it? How will that be constitutional?

but hey, atleast it more than writing to polygon.

Sure it'll be tough. I'm not saying that this sort of thing will be easy and I know that maybe 70% of the time, it'll be a red herring that results in nothing. But that 30% is still worth going after, worth catching. If you go to the police with a text from a working number that says, "I'm going to rape and murder you," the police should be able to sopena the telcom, get the information on the person who sent that text and arrest them. I don't think that's terribly outlandish or constitution breaking.

If no one tries, then nothing changes.