men get that too, I could cite specific examples but that'd be crass
No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
men get that too, I could cite specific examples but that'd be crass
Did I find the woman in that topic attractive? Upon first glance, absolutely. Shes obviously pretty and discussing a subject I care about. She is about as attractive as someone can be without actually speaking to them.
Where it crosses the line is that people vocalize it. For what? Is she going to stumble across the comment and seek you out? At best its off topic posting and at worst its meaningless posturing. It would be like seeing a picture of a toilet and posting about how you need to go to the bathroom. Uh, good for you, I guess?
Netherscourge
Banned
Because her negative experiences trump your positive ones.
It's not a crime to NOT be harassed, therefore, nobody cares that you're surrounded by positive people.
What matters are the cases, like this one, where someone is being harassed and on a regular basis and on multiple levels. In THIS case, it's more important to expose the negative people and to support the victims in the industry than it is to try to reduce their concerns to an isolated incident.
The industry is rampant with narcissism and sexism and the main perpetrators are sociopathic males hiding behind a cloak of internet anonymity and free speech apologists.
It doesn't matter if you accept this or not. What matters is that it gets exposure so that more perpetrators and victims are aware of it.
matrixman92
Member
I was more referring to anonymity on the internet. People will not change, they dont have to on the internet. Just like a lot of people who post online have not changed their stance on gay marriage at all. Also, I thought this was just about women in the video game industry...not in general
Everything is "me, me, me" with that guy. Broken record with too many terrible songs on it.
The line is when you start using your own personal vision of sexuality to do harm towards someone.
Christina Hendricks is a very attractive woman. I would not use my attraction to her to say that all she's good for being my personal sex fantasy.
And if one of your friends said that, give them a slap to the back of the head.
Well no, don't do that, but tell them that that sort of thing isn't alright. Even if all their thinking about is how to get that woman in bed, respecting that woman is going to get them a lot farther than half baked notions about their ability to "tap that ass", so to speak.
scoobidoo112
Member
Oh, so like every Youtube comment section ever then?
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
Yeah, me too. I work in financials, and women are given the utmost respect
silvermember
Banned
I am so glad that all those people that campaigned against slavery, campaigned for women suffrage and for the end of segregation or apartheid did not listen to you.
I am sure if everyone had your mentality the world would suck for anyone that isn't YOU.
Gaming media feeds into this. If you look at the people who appear in E3 live casts, video reviews, gaming vidcasts, etc, you have more women who look like Veronica Belmont than you do the female equivalent of Jeff Gerstmann. Veronica probably plays more games than I do and is no doubt qualified, but looks only seem to be a factor for one of the genders when you look at who is being chosen for those sorts of positions.
Exactly. Makes you wonder why Google hasn't done anything about it, especially since those comment sections are now Google+ sections as well.
stufte
Member
Do I? I whine about it? Thanks.
I doubt you and others would know what I do outside of the internets to help women in my field, or what I've done in my power to make games that I have control over to be less misogynistic. What I've done to make the industry that I have a say in more inclusive to people other than straight males.
I think things are bad, but it's disingenuous to say that it's happening everywhere and that I (and others) are apathetic to it.
The Librarian
Banned
Of course they are some great people in the industry. I know a lot of sweet, wonderful men at Bungie and 343: Frankie, David Ellis, David Dague, Lars Bakken, Eric Osborne, Dan Miller, Dave Mongan (freelance now, I think), John Stvan...all of these are really cool men who are accepting and I'd feel comfortable talking about any number of issues with.
But it's those people who spoil it for the rest. The majority of men don't harass me or women as a whole, but when it does happen, it places me and other women in a vulnerable position. These jerks may be the minority, but they're all over and everywhere.
I'm a bit confused on this -- I didn't read every reply in that thread you mentioned, but the mere act of asking about who someone is because you find them attractive seems pretty harmless and I don't think in itself is harassing them.
If a woman wants to tell me why that's actually harassment then I'd be interested in hearing that argument (not being cute, I really am interested).
licktheenvelope
Member
Yup. What I don't like, though, is the groups that take this beyond and paint a wide brush over everything. Someone said 'it's subtle'... well it must be because I wouldn't put up with it, but I don't see it.
(I did lie though.... at a party once many many years ago when I was in High School a girl was getting harassed, though she actually was asking for it... she was nuts and would regularily try to pick fights with guys, fist fights mind you... and I stepped in against 3 guys from out of our town and took a number of punches and a bottle was smashed over my head... I consider that both sides acting badly though)
You grow up with a media culture that promotes sex as an entitlement to where you get people who think of it as a reward for good behavior, then become increasingly bitter at women for not opening their legs after holding the door open enough times, generalize all women based on their bitterness at the ones that rejected them, and then throw into an echo chamber with like minded people who scream back that it's not their fault and that they are a nice guy and it's those evil women taking advantage of these poor downtrodden "gentlemen" and anybody that says otherwise is a dirty feminazi.
Throw in some fedoras and you have a movement of awful people saying awful things that have convinced themselves that they are nice guys still entitled to sex from hot women.
matrixman92
Member
the internet did not exist back then. people will continue to harass others because they simply easily can now
The Librarian
Banned
Why is this disingenuous? Just because you haven't seen it?
silvermember
Banned
Well apparently you don't work everywhere since those some women seem do expereince being treated differently, besides from your userman I can infer you are a man. HOW would you know what is going on behind the scene? How would you know the hiring processes or even what happens in the higher levels than QA? You don't. I am not a woman, so I don't know but from my experience as a black man, I can tell you that the way you get treated is usually not apparent enough for the outside viewer to know aka you wouldn't know unless you were part of it.
^^ Whoever created this was 100% wrong.
People are not assholes on the internet because of anonymity. They are assholes on the internet, because they are simply assholes.
because it's likely hyperbolic and untrue.
You yourself admitted it doesn't happen everywhere and with everyone
That's not what happened. It started with that, but quickly devolved into "I'd play Titanfall with her" comments (which are really obvious innuendos/ways of saying "I'd fuck her"), and then people discussing the fact that they would be masturbating to pictures of her.
And that wasn't even in a thread about the lady in question...
The Librarian
Banned
Yes, please tell me more about how pervasive an issue affects women in an industry when women are saying the opposite. I'm all ears.
^^ Whoever created this was 100% wrong.
People are not assholes on the internet because of anonymity. They are assholes on the internet, because they are simply assholes.
I agree either a person is an asshole or they're not. The internet allows the assholes to express themselves more freely on the internet without repercussions. Since most assholes are cowards in real life, they take it to the internet.
^^ Whoever created this was 100% wrong.
People are not assholes on the internet because of anonymity. They are assholes on the internet, because they are simply assholes.
It was Penny-Arcade
Who, amusingly enough, proved it wrong themselves because Gabe is a total fuckwad despite being a public figure.
Yes.
B-But I wouldn't know because I'm not there and I'm not seeing it!
See how that works?
It's happening enough. It doesn't matter if it's everywhere or not. It's happening enough that it needs to be talked about. Your irrational discomfort of her exaggeration reeks of #NOTALLMEN propaganda. It's unnecessary and deters from the overall discussion.
again, I don't particulary want to comb through the thead (not my jarb!) but if this is going on -- should that really be tolerated on neogaf? honest question
I agree that some rare, extreme people will not change, but there are still SO many people that can. Most people adhere to what is acceptable. And if we say it's acceptable to verbally attack and threaten people, then more people will do it. If we say it's NOT okay, then less people will do it. There will still be some crazies out there, there is always going to be some crazies out there, but we can lessen the load.
silvermember
Banned
People will continue to harass others that is human nature, just like how people are going to keep killing each other. The point is, just because we can't stop it doesn't mean we cannot minimize it or shouldn't work to minimize it.
We can't stop people from being assholes, we can however minimize them in areas that are relevant to this. For example, we can stop harassment at work, on the news, in politics, sports and even on certain sites. You might not conquer the internet but if we can prevent them from interacting in places like neogaf. I don't expect 4chan to change short of making laws that require real name.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
People like to stereotype it as fedora-clad nerds but really the frustration and the attitude are palpable across almost all demographics. Its just that the nerds are the ones complaining about it on the internet because the non-mainstream internet is still mostly nerdspace
It shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. I'm kind of ashamed that I just sat and read it without calling it out, despite feeling really uncomfortable about it.
I remember when I was upset that E3 banned boothbabes, thinking,"Ugh it's just harmless fun"
But shit like this made me realise that if anything, all they do is reinforce the beliefs that lead to women being mistreated in the industry.
Shouta
Member
Just to explain a little It's the fact that her experience comes without layers that need to be peeled to assert that it's "honest" information, as in there's nothing being withheld. This is a raw account of her experience, directly from her. When a third party speaks for another person, you don't know if their information is complete or faultless. It very well may be his positive experiences be legitimate but we'd need to actually go and confirm this with everyone because this information is one-stepped removed from their original source. Without actually scrutinizing the information, her experiences take higher precedence, IMO.
I know. Just throwing in the joke since they are the internet face of it.
talking more about banhammers. I think neogaf has more than enough members and posters that it could afford to ban people who are going to be creeps. my 2 cents!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its not enough to be banworthy IMO, its just pretty sleazy. Although like Cyan said, when things go as far as tracking down her social media then its another story.
Netherscourge
Banned
I'm suddenly reminded of that thread from last year where one male game developer was chatting online with another female one (or maybe she was an editor for a online publication? can't recall off-hand) and all of a sudden he starts getting disgusting and talks about kissing vaginas...
Anyone have a link to that thread?
The sad part was where he used "being drunk, death in the family, bad day, etc..." to excuse his horrible behavior and people actually supported him while saying that the female he was chatting with wasn't strong enough in her responses to him and only encouraged it.
That's the stuff that makes me sick to my stomach. When people expect a victim to react in a specific way to deter a perpetrator in the middle of a harassing situation.
Anyone have a link to that thread?
The sad part was where he used "being drunk, death in the family, bad day, etc..." to excuse his horrible behavior and people actually supported him while saying that the female he was chatting with wasn't strong enough in her responses to him and only encouraged it.
That's the stuff that makes me sick to my stomach. When people expect a victim to react in a specific way to deter a perpetrator in the middle of a harassing situation.
It really is horrible. I remember working for a small publishing company a while ago. The hiring practices were straight up gross.
A little off topic: I find myself more interested with female protagonists nowadays than male ones. Seem more enjoyable, it's weird. 10 years ago I would have never thought it but man I'm lovin' it.
A little off topic: I find myself more interested with female protagonists nowadays than male ones. Seem more enjoyable, it's weird. 10 years ago I would have never thought it but man I'm lovin' it.
That's what's crazy to me. I work in social services where it's female dominated. It would be a nightmare job if someone was truly misogynistic in my workplace. What would you do when every level of supervision is a woman? My most respected co-workers are women; the people that have inspired me the most are women. Treating them badly is just unfathomable to me.
Just throws me off that some people still live in a bubble world where women aren't capable. Humans are humans: everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Evaluate people on their contribution not their gender identity.
I guess I can follow to the point where people would think that way, but actually act on that?
How much of an idiot you have to be in order to be unable to realize how maybe you shouldn't say those things? It's not only offensive, but honestly cringeworthy, they should be embarrassed of saying those things for many reasons.
So just to be straight here, you're speaking for every single woman who works on interacts with this industry?
There is nothing stopping you to going to a mod asking people be banned.
stufte
Member
I get it. My experiences and observations don't count.
I'm not going to fall on my sword over this.
I think women have it hard.
I don't think she's lying.
I don't have any stats or hard evidence to back up my experiences other than what I'm telling you so I'll stop posting in this thread.
Carry on.
Ask Elliot Roger
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
What an asshole.
should we ask why it's not "enough" to be banworthy?
if you're a woman, wouldn't that thread have made you uncomfortable?
if yes, then why is it not banworthy?