Netherscourge
Banned
To the person who asked what the difference between normal sexual harassment and elitist sexual harassment is, I think this is the Arabian Double Front of Sexual Harassment.
I remember this scum.
Still makes me want to vomit.
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No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
I remember this scum.
Still makes me want to vomit.
In speaking to women, in working with women, and in general interacting with them in public and professional settings, I follow one guideline: would I speak to them that way in front of my mom. The mom rule solves a lot of problems.
The truth is, though -- I try to behave with all people that way, not just women.
The truth is, though -- I try to behave with all people that way, not just women.
Nostremitus
Member
I hate that there's a situation in which this question would be asked... Are people really so disconnected from reality when they're online?
Agreed. The less of this on GAF (OT especially) the better. I'm sick of seeing threads clutter the front page of OT that are image and dumb reply dumps, instead of meaningful discussion.
I don't know about the first one since people will say that in response to a new console color, but don't people get banned for "would" already?
One time my friend put his girlfriend on the mic and camera while I was playing Burnout Paradise. It was really funny. Got so many easy wins that night.
The Librarian
Banned
If you notice, even in GirlGAF, the type of posting Besada is referring to never devolves into "oh yeah I'm masturbating to him right now" or something like that.
But yeah, I'd assume that policy applies for posting men too.
because she's there to do a job, not present herself for your general sexual admiration.
It's harassment in that it's sexist to fixate on a woman sexually in completely not sexual contexts all the time.
User 73706
Banned
"muh dick" just sounds creepy all around.
Well that joke may be made when you're in friendly company; people who don't have to question your morals and ethics when it comes to women en masse.
And people often think that the invisible computer people they talk to every day are that friendly company.
It's still true. What if the person was the best number cruncher, but wasn't exactly honest or punctual. At that point, you'd pick the second best. It's ALWAYS that way. There is no "pure skill" hire. Anyone that has hired people before will tell you that.
I remember the epic defense too:
Scary to think that this dude has kids and used to run a first party studio.
I read the article very carefully.
On one hand i'm the kind of person that i laugh about all those articles in gaming media lately, about women feeling isolated, or about gays feeling isolated, or people of any skin that's not white or any religion ever feeling isolated, and i laugh because in many cases i feel like there are people who literally want to be insulted and they are searching for a reason to be, even if there isn't one.
It's another way of seeking attention by saying 'i'm special and i feel isolated because of that'.
On the other hand though, i am the kind of person who, raised like this by my parents, bless them, i learned to believe in equality, and by equality i don't mean 'here, have a little bonus because you are different than me', by equality i mean equality.
We are all the same, and by some cosmic joke we were born in different countries, having different colors, raised in different religions, by luck of the draw we were given sex but also sexual orientation.
It was all chance, all of it, We had no say in this and we can't be too proud or even too ashamed to be who we are. You could be a homeless man in the USA or the richest woman in Pakistan, it's all chance.
That's why i get infuriated when some vermin among us have the nerve not only to discriminate people who are different by them, but go as far as to impose psychological, verbal and even physical violence upon another human.
Brianna Wu has something to say, and those of us with half a brain, not even a full one is needed, should listen to her. And she should listen too, because she makes a grave mistake thinking that this issue is a video game community problem. This is an internet community problem.
The internet, instead of being a tool with which people from all over the world could come together and collectively make our wold more tolerant, instead of being a vast repository of knowledge, it has become a haven of discrimination, hate speech and a place where every scum can get-off behind their anonymity.
A reason i joined GAF is because i believe that when someone takes advantage of their freedom so they can hurt others, then they don't deserve their freedom. And as in society so too in the internet, if you feel the cold touch of the axe over your head, then maybe you will at least pretend that you are a better person.
Sorry if this is somewhat incoherent, i think i wrote it with a less than cool head.
Just my 2 eurocents.
On one hand i'm the kind of person that i laugh about all those articles in gaming media lately, about women feeling isolated, or about gays feeling isolated, or people of any skin that's not white or any religion ever feeling isolated, and i laugh because in many cases i feel like there are people who literally want to be insulted and they are searching for a reason to be, even if there isn't one.
It's another way of seeking attention by saying 'i'm special and i feel isolated because of that'.
On the other hand though, i am the kind of person who, raised like this by my parents, bless them, i learned to believe in equality, and by equality i don't mean 'here, have a little bonus because you are different than me', by equality i mean equality.
We are all the same, and by some cosmic joke we were born in different countries, having different colors, raised in different religions, by luck of the draw we were given sex but also sexual orientation.
It was all chance, all of it, We had no say in this and we can't be too proud or even too ashamed to be who we are. You could be a homeless man in the USA or the richest woman in Pakistan, it's all chance.
That's why i get infuriated when some vermin among us have the nerve not only to discriminate people who are different by them, but go as far as to impose psychological, verbal and even physical violence upon another human.
Brianna Wu has something to say, and those of us with half a brain, not even a full one is needed, should listen to her. And she should listen too, because she makes a grave mistake thinking that this issue is a video game community problem. This is an internet community problem.
The internet, instead of being a tool with which people from all over the world could come together and collectively make our wold more tolerant, instead of being a vast repository of knowledge, it has become a haven of discrimination, hate speech and a place where every scum can get-off behind their anonymity.
A reason i joined GAF is because i believe that when someone takes advantage of their freedom so they can hurt others, then they don't deserve their freedom. And as in society so too in the internet, if you feel the cold touch of the axe over your head, then maybe you will at least pretend that you are a better person.
Sorry if this is somewhat incoherent, i think i wrote it with a less than cool head.
Just my 2 eurocents.
You feel insulted? Let me school you for a minute.
You're quoting someone who spent pages talking about how his experience is weighed against this woman's. His narrow perception of the world around him has been positive but there's tons of evidence supporting this woman's accounts. There's even more examples of women in the industry enduring this poor treatment. Mesonian just linked the case involving the woman harassed by another man in the industry. You need to come out your fantasy world and acknowledge the bigger picture here.
And I find it ironic you tell me to read more carefully when you don't even have the audacity to respond to posts AFTER you've read the entire thread. Time to invest in a new strategy, eh?
PapaJustify
Member
I sometimes have a hard time to fathom that these morons are so invested in their hate that they take their time to write such a hateful mail. Damn...
I wish to god someone would see a picture of me and ask who I was (in some capacity other than scientific curiosity XD).
That said, I do understand there are many differences between being a man and being a woman, and your response is reasonable.
Apparently so. Without getting so off topic, it baffles me when people claim you cannot be social with virtual reality. I guess some dont consider any interaction beyond direct face to face communication to be socializing. Which actually might explain a lot of the problems exposed in this thread.
Well, maybe you weren't but that was what my original post was addressing.
To answer your question, no I probably wouldn't say that in a real-life conversation. The majority of the people that commented on the picture weren't either though, they simply asked who she was.
I will say one thing though, I have been caught in the middle of women having a conversation about men, and it was more shocking than I ever imagined. lol
Having said that, I get the point about making crass jokes like that.
I tried to do this as a social experiment once. The funny thing is, we ended up getting people who wanted to talk to her and work out their problems rather than being crass or shitty. I was legit surprised how, when faced with a strong female presence, whether she was playing or not, they would use her as a therapist rather than an adversary.
But that's anecdotal and far from the norm.
Team fit is usually the #1 criteria for hiring decisions IME (as I've mentioned in other threads I've been responsible for hiring devs / engineers at a few high-profile non-gaming companies) so long as the candidate passes a baseline of technical skill. As developers will be working in a collaborative environment, what they personally add to that team, along with communication skills, etc, is more important than whatever measure of raw "skill," even if that were easy / reliable to measure.
um ... I have to leave for work in 5 minutes. It has nothing to do with "audacity." I even literally said "forgive me because I'm late to this thread." You are being very aggressive, and rude.
Wow.
Still, I have no issue defending my simple point. Anecdotal evidence is not good data for making broad claims about systemic behavior. It is compelling, and tragic, and worthy of attention and action. But it covers a very narrow sphere of view, and that's why no one relies on anecdotal evidence when making broad claims. Nowhere in my post did I downplay the experiences of women.
You fully made that up on your own, and yes it was extremely insulting.
The Librarian
Banned
I assure you, that's rarely the case.
I remember the epic defense too:
Scary to think that this dude has kids and used to run a first party studio.
Ha, oh man.
If I was Sony Santa Monica HR, would have been running to Jaffe's house with an axe and would just start chopping the hardline to his house screaming "NO NO NO NO STOP NO NO NO!"
Can't say I ever visited GirlGAF, but did notice when guys pictures are posted some of the responses would be "yummy" or "so hot". Now I don't know if women or men wrote those but it's the same idea.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Well I'm not sure what's more disturbing at this point: the content in the OP or the content posted after.
I do not expect these social norms to change for a very, very long time. It's part of the reason why people like me are so set on getting more minorities and women into the STEM field pipeline. The more women and minorities we get into these fields, the more people will drop these embarrassing stereotypes and attitudes.
Fuck man, we're still seeing people in presumably professional positions under 40 years of age calling others "niggers". And now women are the "niggers" of gender. The fuck am I even supposed to say to this?
I do not expect these social norms to change for a very, very long time. It's part of the reason why people like me are so set on getting more minorities and women into the STEM field pipeline. The more women and minorities we get into these fields, the more people will drop these embarrassing stereotypes and attitudes.
Fuck man, we're still seeing people in presumably professional positions under 40 years of age calling others "niggers". And now women are the "niggers" of gender. The fuck am I even supposed to say to this?
Aces&Eights
Member
The problem is we live in a world of psychos and idiots. Anyone who could even think things like that in the OP are dangerous and need to be taken seriously. I have a daughter, mother and two sisters and if I ever heard of anyone talking to them like that then I would take matters into my own hands and someone would not be making it out in tract.
This whole thing that men are more hurt by a woman's criticism shouldn't be an excuse because they are geneticly predisposed. Fuck that. We all have the ability to keep our tempers in check. We all have the ability to take criticism correctly and not lash out. Man and woman are EQUAL. In all things. I think these ass hats act like this because women are typically smaller in stature. Physically, I mean. Men spout off thinking, "she cant kick my ass" so I'll say whatever I want. News flash: If I ever heard a man treat a woman like the way OP described I would intervene immediately and physically. Protecting people from predators is wired into my dna. Handicapped children getting picked on, men abusing their spouse, bullies picking on small guys. ..makes me fucking rage.
This whole thing that men are more hurt by a woman's criticism shouldn't be an excuse because they are geneticly predisposed. Fuck that. We all have the ability to keep our tempers in check. We all have the ability to take criticism correctly and not lash out. Man and woman are EQUAL. In all things. I think these ass hats act like this because women are typically smaller in stature. Physically, I mean. Men spout off thinking, "she cant kick my ass" so I'll say whatever I want. News flash: If I ever heard a man treat a woman like the way OP described I would intervene immediately and physically. Protecting people from predators is wired into my dna. Handicapped children getting picked on, men abusing their spouse, bullies picking on small guys. ..makes me fucking rage.
I mean sure, but that still wouldn't have anything to do with their race, gender or world outlook. I want the person who can get the job done, I'm not necessarily interested in how they would change female relations for the company.
Now if I'm making something that is a work of artistic expression, maybe a female applicant isn't the best coder, or artist, or designer, maybe she's the 4th or 7th or what have you. But having a female prospective on your project may still be extremely beneficial.
Wiggle room, you know?
I'm not sure if this people are really mysgonists or if they just behave like one because they know can hurt women even more so. And in the internet, if you are trolling, it's all about hurting someone and escalating. It's probably on the same level as calling man "gay assfucker" or something the liks of that, because they believe that this can hurt man most. As they believe that threatening a women hurts them most.
Moon_frogger
Member
It's subconscious. A lot of them don't even know they're doing it. Hence the discussion. I'm with you though. I work with mostly women who tell me what to do all day long, my boss is a woman and I have absolutely no problem taking criticism or advice from any of them.
useyourfist
Member
There needs to be laws brought in to bring scum like this to justice. I think one big issue is that the older (law making) part of society view internet hate as the same as play ground bullying (still bad) instead of full scale abuse that can be just as damaging as someone coming up to you on the street and making threats.
I for one will make more effort from now to make my disgust at this behaviour clear to people if I ever encounter any sexist, racist, scumbag trolls.
I for one will make more effort from now to make my disgust at this behaviour clear to people if I ever encounter any sexist, racist, scumbag trolls.
licktheenvelope
Member
Have not done those but I did do construction and roofing when younger and didn't experience any sexism... well... aside from them not hiring women, I suppose, to do the labour.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I blame the rise of social media for a lot of it. They facilitate douchebaggery and do little to censure it.
The sad truth is that the internet has handed a lot of idiots a giant megaphone, which they use to create noise in absence of anything worthwhile to think or say.
Let me clear your doubt: They are mysoginists.
licktheenvelope
Member
My bosses up to 4 levels above me are all women. Great, strong women.
All I ever heard about her was how hot she was.
You could always disguise yourself as a woman.
You should be careful with these threads then. You may not have intended to downplay women, but the one you're quoting had implied that in his posts. It's important to read through these threads to avoid accidents like these.
If you're worried that it might be closed by the time you're off work, I get it but I dunno if these are threads you can rush through in a hurry. That's how misunderstandings happen.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No, I mean what to say about the fact that it's happening in a general sense. I think we all know what to say to perpetrators of said commentary.
In fact, I'm fairly unlikely to be anywhere near the staging points of said comments or attitudes, being a black male.
Nostremitus
Member
A message board isn't friendly company. That would be like PMing that person. Posting on a board is like standing in the middle of a supermarket/school/etc and screaming the comments as loudly as you can for everyone to hear...
weemadarthur
Member
awesome to hearThe Librarian
Banned
The type of comments you posted aren't exactly what Besada was talking about I don't think, nor was I. The type of comments he's talking about, and the ones that really bother me, would be like if I were to say, "Oh my god I want him in my vag" in response to a picture of someone posting an attractive male and the rest of GirlGAF quoting the same picture over and over again and repeating something similar to that phrase.
Those type of comments lead to the one I gave as an example. If there was a thread on an attractive man and you had the majority of GirlGAF saying stuff like that, I'm sure they'd be banned too. Of course, you don't see us doing that because, well, we're in the minority here and we know how it feels to have it done to our gender.
DeviantBoi
Member
Next feature on Polygon, Arthur Gies writes about the harassment he gets for his opinions.
Certainly, I do not think that anyone is claiming otherwise. The idea behind these articles is that the oppression felt by women is of a specific kind and occurs within a specific context. Oppression, discrimination, and so on manifest in many different ways, and inevitably, in varying levels of intensity.
Totally.
But I think a lot of people don't get that.
Hell, like I said earlier, on CNN there are people using their facebook tags who talk about plans to murder the president. Or how if anyone tries to take their guns away, they will go full militia on local police.
People don't get it. Or they don't care.
Hurhur jokes, but regardless of your opinion of his work, Arthur Gies does not deserve to be told to "get raped and die in a fire".
Why though? When did hate on the internet become so commonplace that it became acceptable?
Exactly. It's not wrong to say that men are harassed as well, it's wrong to equivocate and say that since everyone experiences some form of harassment that the specifics don't matter and nothing can be done about any of it.
Next feature on NeoGAF, junior posts witty zinger and gets a gray name.
Calling out a sexist piece of shit using one of the favorite sexist terms of misogynists and implying that female genitalia is bad is probably not ideal.