Your unusual and quasi-socratic method here is about to land you in trouble. If you have something to say, say it. Coyness is not attractive in an internet forum.
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No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
Your unusual and quasi-socratic method here is about to land you in trouble. If you have something to say, say it. Coyness is not attractive in an internet forum.
While I see what you are saying, I don't quite see how it would be possible focus on the topic of female harassment in the gaming industry(which is what I believe this is focusing on) without looking at the bigger picture/everything as a whole which would happen to include men. I want to listen, but I'd like to understand this first.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
It's really bad. This is slightly outside the realm of video games but I think it's related: I just started to go on reddit recently. For some reason I had the idea that reddit would be very progressive, and racism/sexism would not be tolerated. Boy was I wrong. I can't believe the incredibly sexist things I see there, or the "You think you have it bad, minorities? Try being a white male!" posts that get thousands of up votes. There's something inherently broken in the internet and I don't what we can do to fix it. As far as I can tell, GAF is the best community, thanks to its strict modding. It's not perfect, but at least I get to see bigots get banned.
I think nobody is talking about the slur used because everybody is on the same page that using said slur is disgusting. There is a conversation going on right now because, believe it or not, some people still disbelieve that women encounter such sexism regularly.
Indeed, being threatened is scary enough but to get texted your own address that must be terrible.
To think there are people out there willing to put time into making people feel that way is beyond frightening and really sad.
A black woman commented it in the first fre pages, and in this boards there are a lot of topics discussing racism and this topic isnt about it, not sure why you feel so disproportionally offended at single the slur in an article about many cases of female harrasament. I could call your reaction "interesting" too but Im actually aware of what is being discussed here and I understand the sillyness that is making vague accusations.
I honestly don't get it, dude. Yeah, people calling each other niggers is pretty fucked up, and I obviously don't approve of it. But as far as scrutinizing when it comes to this? I think it just sort of serves as a fucked up setpiece to give people perspective on just what some women have to deal with.
And by "meaning?" i meant, like, you're offended over people focusing on what is pretty obviously the point of the topic rather than the racial slur used? (the use of which, i think we can all agree is, yes...fucked up.)
I am so going to regret this but here we go....
First foremost I believe rational people (male female whatever) believe this kind of treatment is wrong and should stop. The people who say these things are terrible people...most of us agree with this. Where all the arguments arise from is that men don't understand viewpoint.
I'm male and straight. So technically I'm part of the entitled group...oh I forgot I'm hispanic and come from 1st generation immigrants with no education. I grewup low-middle class, we didn't have much in luxuries but we lived in a house, always had food in the fridge and my parents always found ways to get my that video console I always wanted. I was surrounded by kids who had way more money than me. Did I also mention that I had terrible speech disorder that took almost all of elementary school to fix with speech therapy. Did also mention I was a fat kid who sucked at sports. Did I also mention that was bullied verbally and physically; attacked and chased down almost every day in elementary school. Did I mention that other hispanic kids in school would make fun of me for not being hispanic enough...for not liking what they liked ...for being too white.
In highschool I really got into anime and video games and this was during the late 90s early 00s when those things weren't popular with teenagers and were seen as kid past times (oh how times have changed). I was weird... I was different...I was ignored and made fun of and laughed at. But as time passed on things changed and I learned to make friends who were into what I was into. Yet the scars of those past experiences are still there; both mentally and physically.
So why do I bring this up? Because I know many people here have similar stories to tell. We all know how it is to be attacked and ridiculed just because of what we like, of who we are, and of what we do or don't have. We know that pain. Thats why when i hear stories like this it hurts me. Really deep down does it hurt...But you know what hurts even more...is that people are trying their hardest to say that I don't know what that pain feels like. That I don't know what it feels to be not part of a group...to be judged unfairly who how I look or talk just because I happen to male and straight. Because I'm part of the entitled group. What do I know about discrimination they tell me, what do I know about how words can be so hateful so destructive like an actual punch in the face.
To all those writing about the pains and suffering of being a woman in the industry...PLEASE I beg of you please stop making it men vs women thing. Stop trying to make your point by belittling the experience that straight men have. We are getting so damn defensive that we quickly push away anything that might water down our points. Why does acknowledging the issues men experience reduce the point of your article? Why do you believe it is necessary to play down anything we experience.
To all those who say suck it up and stop bitching...you are part of the problem. The feminist bloggers out there who say men will never understand...you are part of the problem.
We all know the pain of hatred why can't we join up and help each other. Why do we tear down each other?
Please, STOP AND THINK!
First foremost I believe rational people (male female whatever) believe this kind of treatment is wrong and should stop. The people who say these things are terrible people...most of us agree with this. Where all the arguments arise from is that men don't understand viewpoint.
I'm male and straight. So technically I'm part of the entitled group...oh I forgot I'm hispanic and come from 1st generation immigrants with no education. I grewup low-middle class, we didn't have much in luxuries but we lived in a house, always had food in the fridge and my parents always found ways to get my that video console I always wanted. I was surrounded by kids who had way more money than me. Did I also mention that I had terrible speech disorder that took almost all of elementary school to fix with speech therapy. Did also mention I was a fat kid who sucked at sports. Did I also mention that was bullied verbally and physically; attacked and chased down almost every day in elementary school. Did I mention that other hispanic kids in school would make fun of me for not being hispanic enough...for not liking what they liked ...for being too white.
In highschool I really got into anime and video games and this was during the late 90s early 00s when those things weren't popular with teenagers and were seen as kid past times (oh how times have changed). I was weird... I was different...I was ignored and made fun of and laughed at. But as time passed on things changed and I learned to make friends who were into what I was into. Yet the scars of those past experiences are still there; both mentally and physically.
So why do I bring this up? Because I know many people here have similar stories to tell. We all know how it is to be attacked and ridiculed just because of what we like, of who we are, and of what we do or don't have. We know that pain. Thats why when i hear stories like this it hurts me. Really deep down does it hurt...But you know what hurts even more...is that people are trying their hardest to say that I don't know what that pain feels like. That I don't know what it feels to be not part of a group...to be judged unfairly who how I look or talk just because I happen to male and straight. Because I'm part of the entitled group. What do I know about discrimination they tell me, what do I know about how words can be so hateful so destructive like an actual punch in the face.
To all those writing about the pains and suffering of being a woman in the industry...PLEASE I beg of you please stop making it men vs women thing. Stop trying to make your point by belittling the experience that straight men have. We are getting so damn defensive that we quickly push away anything that might water down our points. Why does acknowledging the issues men experience reduce the point of your article? Why do you believe it is necessary to play down anything we experience.
To all those who say suck it up and stop bitching...you are part of the problem. The feminist bloggers out there who say men will never understand...you are part of the problem.
We all know the pain of hatred why can't we join up and help each other. Why do we tear down each other?
Please, STOP AND THINK!
weemadarthur
Member
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Last edited:
mentallyinept
Banned
Are you serious right now?
You do not get to say things like this:
To someone directly and pretend that you are making "direct observations of the entire core problem" when someone calls you on it.
Come on.
SousedLouse
Member
Sai-kun wants further clarification. It's as straightforward as anyone can get, and the backhanded snideness on your part is a little gross.
The line in the OP is a hamfisted throwback to a John Lennon song, there's not much to pick out of it other than the fact that it's disgusting.
As far as I can see, no one in here has said any of those things, so to whom is this directed?
My previous post before the one you quoted explained what I meant. I thought it was obvious what I was trying to say in regards to racism and how no one seemed to care.
Apparently it wasn't.
If this gets me in "trouble". So be it. It was not my intention to get in trouble for being coy. I didn't know that would even qualify as something that would get me in any trouble, anyway?
Apologies, mr/mrs moderator.
Suzushiiro
Banned
It all depends on which subreddits you frequent. The defaults can get pretty bad on occasion, the MRA/Redpill subs are obviously shitholes, most of the smaller/mid-sized ones that aren't explicitly political are okay.
And then, of course, on the other end of the crazy spectrum, you have ShitRedditSays, its sister subs, and the subs it's effectively taken over, which subscribe to the "white cisgendered heterosexual men are the root of all evil" mentality.
I feel the same way. It's become very transparent.
SocksForWoks
Banned
Wow using the n-word to describe your situation?
That is absolutely horrible of the author.
That is absolutely horrible of the author.
No one approves of the racial language used in the article. It's been commented on multiple times, all of whom were horrified about it. You've created an impression -- that no one here cares about the use of racial slurs -- that is wildly at odds with the actual reactions people have had to the use of racial slurs. That said, this isn't a topic about racism. We have plenty of those, but this isn't one of them.
Yeah same here, in my job making a statement like that would make you a dead man walking. You wouldn't even have a job anymore before you completed your sentence.
MiniBossBattle
Member
bad way. The next week someone photoshopped it and that made her laugh. ThisIsGAF.gif
She was quoting the message, but Pay no mind to it, you keep dropping those vagues hints of racism in the boards tho!
The author of the article didn't use that to describe her situation. It's literally an email she received from someone else.
No, she made an article about harassment of women in the industry and decided to illustrate her point by being a racist. That makes more sense Cyan!
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
No one is taking away the pain people feel when they are individually picked on just because they note that certain groups are systematically marginalized. And no one is saying men can't be marginalized because of facets of their identity; Feminists pioneered the concept of intersectional identity.
When people reach out and talk about privilege that is embedded in being a straight male, they aren't telling you you never feel hardship, or that you yourself are rude and hateful; they're saying exactly what you're saying. That your own experiences shape you, and part of the way they shape you is that they make it harder to understand how others are different and have different experiences. And they bring it up not because they are devaluing your experiences, but because they are concerned that you are devaluing theirs. Actual women are saying "We are discriminated against and harassed because they are women". Your response is "No, you aren't". You then claim they are trying to devalue your experience. Think about that.
Feminist bloggers aren't saying men will never understand, feminist bloggers are saying that when men dismiss their concerns, it comes from a place of privilege (ie lack of understanding). Men who say "Wow, after reading all these stories about women telling us that they are harassed on a daily basis because they are women, maybe the industry has challenges treating women well" aren't being told "Shut up, you don't understand". Men who say "Women don't experience bullying... everyone experiences bullying. I got bullied. And you don't see me complaining. By pointing out that men sexually harass women, women are blaming me and that's not fair" are being told that they're dismissive and not respectful to the concerns being raised.
Feminist bloggers include men, incidentally.
weemadarthur
Member
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Last edited:
You are taking this too personally and perhaps projecting things that aren't being said. Nobody is saying that males have absolutely no troubles in the world. We are focusing on one specific thing, in a single industry: sexual harassment in video games. The conversation we are having is speaking in generalities that women have it tougher than males because, statistically speaking, there is a lot of evidence that women have it worse than men. All those struggles you had? Would probably be an extra bit worse if you were female. Now you deal with the things women face as well. Recognizing that you have benefits from being male does not mean you discount all the struggles you've had to overcome through other qualifiers (incomes, sexuality, disability, mental disorder, etc.)
SocksForWoks
Banned
That's what I meant sorry, I just wrote that post kinda fast : /
About what exactly?
She received an e-mail calling her the nigger of the gender.
The story here isn't that someone used the word nigger, it's that the industry is sexist.
What don't you understand?
I never said they aren't discriminated for who they are... They are telling me I don't know how it feels because I'm man and men dont' go through these issues of rejection and discrimination. This is something the writers brings up multiple times in the article.
The Librarian
Banned
Who is they?
I winced inside when the author said that after the death threat, she hasn't gone to her car alone at night since Jan. 2.
I don't blame her for feeling scared, and I don't blame her for sharing the anecdote. It illustrates her point nicely.
I just wince because I know whoever made that threat is reading her story and feeling smug that he "got" to her.
I don't blame her for feeling scared, and I don't blame her for sharing the anecdote. It illustrates her point nicely.
I just wince because I know whoever made that threat is reading her story and feeling smug that he "got" to her.
you don't know what it feels to be discriminated for being female. Unless you are female, you will never truly know.
Presumably the people who are the opinion that he is offended by.
Hey man it's Polygon! You never know!
The problem I think people are having with your argument is that no one seems to be able to pinpoint any place where someone is actually saying this, though. It may be your impression, it may be the way the article made you feel. But it's an unsubstantiated feeling, because nobody said men can't go through issues of rejection and discrimination. As far as I can tell actually, absolutely no one has even in this topic - but definitely not in the article. And even though men do go through rejection and discrimination, especially if they are men in a group of minorities, it's a type of rejection and discrimination distinct from that of women. You can never understand what it is like to be a woman in a world run by sexist men, and what it must feel like to try to break through that ceiling and make your place in the world. I can never understand either, as a man, the actual feeling of it. But I do empathize, because it's clear it is horrible for most women involved. And this shit needs to change.
We, meaning men, don't really feel this sort of discrimination. We can feel discrimination in general, yes, but not a systematic, sexist discrimination. We are rarely if ever subjected to degradation because of gender, and if we are, it's not nearly to the degree or frequency women are. The frequency is a massive part of the problem, it amounts to essentially bullying and isolation.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out the nuanced ways one is systematically oppressed. Blanket "everybody be kind" arguments fail to realize that discrimination occurs in various ways, and there is no one cure-all solution to every sort of discrimination.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
They're not saying you don't understand what it's like to be hurt, harassed, or discriminated against, or that gender is the only basis on which anyone is discriminated against, or that only group-identity discrimination is wrong and individualized bullying is acceptable. They aren't saying that men don't go through issues.
They're saying that when they raise the issue of explicitly gendered discrimination against them, and men dismiss their concerns, which is what it feels like you're doing by making the discussion about you and blaming "feminist bloggers" for contributing to a negative environment--ie turning victims into aggressors, the reasons for the dismissals come from a lack of empathy, and that lack of empathy typically comes from a position of privilege, which refers to the way that your own circumstances blind you to the hardships others face.
I very explicitly linked you to the feminist conceptual tool used to describe explicitly that identity does not only exist on gender lines and discrimination does not only exist on gender lines. So it's just not true that feminists are ignorant to the realities of race or class struggle or xenophobia.
The Librarian
Banned
Great post, Stump.
Yeah, but who are they? Seems like he's talking about people in this thread.
I don't agree with generalities and i think it completely disregards the complexity of the issue at hand. Making statements like women just have it tougher than men is exactly what causes some knee jerk reactions. This is exactly what I have a problem with.
You may not be dismissing my struggles but you are devaluing them just because i happen to be male
The Librarian
Banned
Why are you having problems with statements that can be back up with studies? And can be demonstrated?
Although I am sure anyone who has experienced ridicule, threats and discrimination can relate to another groups, the thing is its still different.
For example black people know what racism is and have experience that but you still get black people who are homophobic or even racist to others outside their own race, so I don't think its fair to say "I understand".
Everyones experience is different and everyone copes with those experiences differently.
You are right though this shouldn't be about men vs woman but you can't deny that woman get much worse discrimination and hate than men and the men who do it realise that throwing words like rape around is an easy way for them to verbally and mentally attack a woman.
So yes I agree lets not make this men vs woman, but lets also not ignore the issue either.
No, this is actually very simple.
What the author is describing is a real, pervasive problem. One that can be addressed. Insisting that we can't address it unless we also, simultaneously, address every other issue that makes people feel bad or makes the world a bad place is ridiculous and ultimately just an endorsement of the status quo.
Imagine, for a moment, arguing that we can't outlaw segregation until we make sure white kids don't feel excluded. Just think about trying to make that point. Think about saying that the people refusing to acknowledge the white boy's plight were being "unhelpful" (as you did, about feminists refusing to acknowledge the plight of men, before you edited).
Hmm, I dont think that he actually stated that though.
It also didnt seem like that to me, personally.
They are devaluing the merit of your struggles in regards to gender oppression, and for good reason. Nobody is saying their discrimination is "worse" than yours. The argument is simply that gender discrimination is a different kind of discrimination, and thus requires it's own solution.
I have no idea why you believe i'm blind to hardships of others. I dont' discount anyone's struggle. It just bothers me when people belittle other people's hardships to make their point.
I do not disagree with the point of the article nor am I once of those individuals who dont' believe women are discriminated against for just being women.
I honestly have no idea where you get off by telling me that I do.
Giolon
Member
Don't put words into my mouth. Even before I deleted my post, it had nothing at all to do with "addressing all the evils in order to address a single evil."
glimmerman
Member
I feel your pain, Harlequin. I've experienced this too in these types of threads, so, although I'm sure it will get me threatened or banned, I just wanted to add a word of support for you. These types of threads have a tendency to get turned into echo chambers due to modding.