ab.aeterno
Member
...I don't think you quite understand what privilege is in this context, if you think that status comes from studies and statistics.
No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry
Sure, the problem is that that person can just go sign up for another account, use a VPN, and boom, they're back up and running.
The Librarian
Banned
I don't think you should be hiding the detrimental effects of sexualization of women in the name of "variety."
Then why are you in this thread?
Ah, yes... I sometimes forget there are people who'd actually bother to do that just so they can continue being mean. :-\
There are "men" that talk and think of women like that at all ages, I know that this is concentrating on the gaming industry but it happens all the time everywhere for women, no I can never relate to it, I am a guy, it doesn't come across in the same way to me, but all you have to do is ask any woman you may know about online dating and the types of messages they get.
This happens often.. from what I have learnt in the last few months is aparently worse and more widespread than I thought, I have not come across in a personal experience because as far as I know, no one in my friends group is this way, and if it has happened to any woman that I know I have not been privy to it.
It's a sad state of the world unfortunately, and I am not exactly sure what can be done about it, as a guy if I say anything that comes across defensive and opinionated anyway it seems we get thrown in the notallmen or saying that we don't get it, its true, I don't get it, but I don't think that some of the written articles (not this one particularly) where they just read like pieces lashing out at all men really help much either because people will get defensive, in short.. it saddens me people act out this way, I am sure we all have made stupid jokes or said stuff in a joking manner in private with friends, and that's obviously not right, but also I feel like I know not to treat a real human being that way, but it has caused me to re-evaluate how I handle certain situations.
This part of your post is odd.
Studies and statistics are extremely important for understanding a lot of things. You also are ignoring what priviledge actually is. It exists no matter how hard anyone wants to pretend it doesn't.
Maidenpool?
Member
I know there are older guys have sent nasty messages online, but based on personal experience - I don't know a single guy my age (26) or around my age who would ever send anything to a girl that was intentionally vulgar or mean-spirited. These messages sent to female games journalists aren't being sent by anyone older than 13 who is a functioning member of society... and that's why these articles never strike a serious cord with me - because the females writing them should know that whoever is sending them hate-mail is probably living in his mother's basement. The ones who are functioning, contributing members of society would never bother acting so vulgar. These female games journalists are basically dealing with young boys and the older runoff of society when they receive these messages.
It's a strange circumstance ... as I said, you have (what basically amounts to) older weirdos and young boys talking shit to female game journalists online, and in turn the female game journalist will publish an article on the issue - aimed towards regular adult men and women - that is correct in its information but occasionally slightly tuned up with regards to attracting clicks. This results in sometimes slightly annoying some regular adult male gamers who already know they aren't chauvinists or secret chauvinists and don't want to be informed again about how they need to get their act together.
A bunch of boys who are still learning their times tables, combined with a bunch of older creeps have caused - in effect - an entire segment of gaming journalism to be created and constantly fueled by their shit talking. Interesting.
It's a strange circumstance ... as I said, you have (what basically amounts to) older weirdos and young boys talking shit to female game journalists online, and in turn the female game journalist will publish an article on the issue - aimed towards regular adult men and women - that is correct in its information but occasionally slightly tuned up with regards to attracting clicks. This results in sometimes slightly annoying some regular adult male gamers who already know they aren't chauvinists or secret chauvinists and don't want to be informed again about how they need to get their act together.
A bunch of boys who are still learning their times tables, combined with a bunch of older creeps have caused - in effect - an entire segment of gaming journalism to be created and constantly fueled by their shit talking. Interesting.
The Librarian
Banned
Um, college-age boys have harassed me in public saying, "Yo, I'd fuck that!" and "Nice tits!".
So, yeah, they are probably people who are older than 13.
"Problem women"? What? If a woman wants to show cleavage she should feel completely free to show all the cleavage they like. The problem isn't theirs, the problem is there is a huge group of men who are unwilling to act like anything more than animals when interacting with women. Be it on Twitch, in the workplace, whatever.
The Librarian
Banned
Stop the victim blaming, please.
Sure, based on personal experience neither do I, but there are people out there that do think that way and act out that way, I think anyone can see how getting an email with your address and a threat can unsettle anyone.. and that repeating over and over.. nothing has to happen physically in order for that to fuck with anyone's head and the stress it may add.
a woman I know just posted a text exchange with a guy in a dating site, he was interested, she politely declined, and then guy inmediately lashed out and started calling her all sorts of names. It happens, these "men" are out there, even if I have personally not known anyone that to my knowledge has done this.
Because it is like treading on thin ice and people are quick to defend their own community when someone questions the status quo. When you start playing the blame game, constructive dialogue is nearly impossible. Companies don't really care as long as abuse does not happen during big tournaments. You will hear reports such as League of Legends players being banned for using hateful language but these measures are only lip service without any substance.
Look, I've made my point and a lot of people over here will probably disagree with my sentiments. After two decades of unchecked abuse going back and forth I've learned to accept hateful messages as part of playing fighting games. I just shrug it off though the age demographic in fighting games tends to be around 20-35 and the possibility of grown men doing that stuff makes me super sad.
I believe removing abuse and harassment from the gaming community will be extremely difficult as companies are not interested to handle the issue effectively and players have grown accustomed to this environment. When you add highly divisive rhetoric and other social issues into this toxic mix, it will only fuel animosity even if the intentions are noble. That's that...
BlastProcessing
Member
Could you clarify the bolded point? It sounds like you are saying that women who write about being harassed should know better. That's a bold claim and I don't want to comment on it without being sure what you meant.
From the sounds of it, it doesn't bother you. Using quotations like you have indicate that you don't consider it harassment. Why bring it up? This is a write-up about, among other things, death and rape threats.
This is demonstrably false.
Read this link
In this, the NOW former founder and CEO of IndieStatik, continually says horrific things like "I will kiss you on the vagina if you [give me information]". But you should read the full thing so you're confronted with the reality of what goes on every day, in workplaces all across the world, continually, 24/7.
More
Even More
Even More More
Even More More More
Even More More More More
All done by adults, by the way. Some who spent money to endorse and continue to push this sexism, at a wide scale.
It's actually fucking offensive at this point, seriously. We need to STOP pretending this is not a real horrific issue across the board and work continually to address these issues.
And this is also why this problem is allowed to continue to bubble under the surface, because people such as yourself keep trying to intentionally undermine the seriousness of what is happening here. Do you know how horrible it must be for a woman in this industry to come forward when attitudes like this persist?
It's not 12 year olds who harass and catcall my wife in public when I'm not there with her. It's not 12 year olds that said awful things to her to the point that she refuses to wear headsets when playing games with me. It's not 12 year olds that made her feel unwelcome to the point that I can't convince her to participate in even generally positive gaming communities.
There is a string of comments from David Jaffe in this thread. You're incorrect if you think this is limited to children.
patjburns89
Member
Because men can't go 10 minutes without being the center of attention. It's maddening.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is.
You make it sound like the harassment isn't serious. Is there a reason you did that?
theshape31
Member
This is an incredibly important article that needs to be taken very seriously. And anyone in this thread who attempts to belittle the issues are quite simply part of the problem.
Maybe you should listen to the way Matt Lees puts it when he talks about this. He's also bothered by the idea that he has life on easy just because he's a white male, but instead of denying it, he accepts it, and sees it as one more reason (as if there weren't enough) to want this privilege to end (not by taking away his rights, but by having everyone who doesn't fit into his "model" also having them).
The idea is not that we didn't suffer because we're male, but that if we were exactly the same in everything but the fact that we were female, we would have it worse, and that's not fair. It's also not fair that you have it worse for not being white, that you have it worse for not having money and so on, but no one is saying "none of this matters, only gender issues do", feminists don't want to make your struggles irrelevant, they're just fighting for theirs.
The idea that men having a shit time somehow makes it equal is ironically denying all the shit they went through just for being female, which is pretty much a version of what you're accusing "bloggers" of doing.
If you want to raise discussion about, for example, non white people being bullied in the video games industry (I don't know if that happens, just an example) with evidence to back it up, I'm pretty damn sure no woman would go there to say it's not an issue because females have it worse. On the contrary, many females are also obviously not white, and on top of going through the shit they go for being female, they go through the shit non white males go for not being white.
I mean, maybe someone would say that, but they'd be as wrong as people saying women being harassed is not an issue.
I'm not super educated on the subject or anything, btw, just giving my 2 cents because your posts really reminded me of Matt Lees' videos on the subject, because he says he used to think in a similar way too, so maybe watching his videos will help you see it from another angle, being explained by someone who knows what it's like to think the way you do.
Why did you put harassed in quotes?
I was reading this and the one that stood out to me as interesting was this:
Just a point of curiosity... Does this happen? Do random guys just tell you to smile for no reason? I've never heard of this.
weemadarthur
Member
Okay.
Sounds like you don't have the emotional energy to endure being the focus of negative attention, as well as feeling responsible for the general tone of such a discussion. Nor do I. But why are you, in here, drawing attention away from the female writers who have decided that they DO have that energy for one topic, by constantly trying to shoehorn in other topics? Find a leader who will take on your issue, and support that leader as much as you can.
This is a big problem. You're comparing one kind of harassment to a bunch of different kinds of harassment. It was like, a week ago that some random dude from the internet actually WENT TO A DEVELOPER'S APARTMENT. She tweeted about it afterwards; was away from the house, luckily.
For you, it stops at words. For half the world, there is another level entirely to this. That's why it's important that nobody brush this type of thing off and we all work to root it out.
licktheenvelope
Member
Part of the problem you're going to run into with coming at it like this is that you will be called part of the problem for viewing a female in a sexual manner that dresses like that... trust me that argument is not pretty.
It's why I have a problem with the idea of 'rape culture' etc. The argument that will come is that these women should be able to wear whatever they want, clothing or not, scantily clad or not. If you make the argument "she's wearing those clothes for attention" you get lumped into the 'rape culture.'
(I don't watch any twitch stream like this)
weemadarthur
Member
All the time. We've had this topic before. It happened to all the female gaffers who responded; only one found the statement encouraging rather than annoying.
Because how else are they going to attempt to downplay the impact of something a woman might already be ashamed to admit publicly?
Reaching for something that doesn't relate (at the same intensity because men will never experience the world exactly the same as a woman) doesn't try to solve the issue, it only devalues the original experience presented as a problem.
Sometimes the best way to help is to just listen and not say anything that's a one-up or a "I know how that feels," especially when you probably don't (and won't ever) know how ___ feels.
All the time.
I pretty much get it once a week at work and it's when I'm busy working on something. Because apparently it's weird for me to be focused on my work and not be smiling like an idiot 24/7.
This happens weekly to several women in my life. No, they're not playing it up, and no, there's no possibility that it's charming or reciprocal flirting. Northeastern US, for the record. Public transportation is involved.
The Librarian
Banned
I've yet to encounter this...thankfully.
Maybe you're always smiling!
God man sometimes reading threads like this depress me though. We still have so far to go, apparently... and it just highlights how far that is
Oh god, at work? My experiences with this happening are invariably on the sidewalk/bus stop or other public spaces. I'm so glad I don't work in customer service or hospitality.
It happens, yes.
I'm embarrassed to admit to it, but I did it once. It was stupid during the moment and I felt like a huge moron for doing it when I read that this is a regular thing, maybe not for all women all the time, but it does happen.
I've since learned a lot of things about gender relations by reading the other side's opinions on things like this online. Often there's a lot of stuff we (see: hetero men) don't know that bothers women since some/often times they don't want to speak about it publicly for fear of A) rocking the boat at their job, B) being taken as a "bitch," or C) both A & B.
She just kind of doesn't want this side of the internet or gaming in her life because of everything that comes with it. She's a lot happier just playing multiplayer games locally with our friends and playing everything else with just me. It sucks too because she is seriously the sweetest, kindest person. Your loss internet.
I'm a straight guy and I'm having trouble relating to my own people right now. The thought of issuing commands to strangers because I want to be smiled at never crosses my mind. Maybe I'm weird.
I didn't heard of this before either, what the fuck.
This is really fucking creepy.
Yeah it's really uncomfortable. You're also kind of trapped because you have to suck it up and just go with it to avoid upsetting the customer but sometimes it get's to me and I get really awkward around them to show I'm not really happy with the comment.
It's just such a weird thing to say to someone busy working. Why exactly would I be smiling all the time unless I start helping a customer?
But yeah I've gotten it at random places too like bars, busses, etc. At least then I can ignore them without any consequences, heh.
and the sad thing is it's only like some distant number down on a list of hundreds of items that sexist men do to creep women the fuck out
i mean it's bad everywhere, but this is our game industry, we should strive for better. We should DEMAND better. Not just accept nonsense like animations would take double the work, or we're gonna have barely dressed ladies dancing around our booths, or we're going to segregate a gaming tournament by male and female. It's absurdity. We have to fight back. It's a cause worth fighting for.
If you want to see this happening real time, follow Laurie Penny on twitter (@pennyred). She's a feminist writer who constantly deals with these types of attacks. (Fair warning: you'd be following a radical left leaning feminist, so, if those politics don't suit, you may be upset by her general comments.)
What I've learned following her is really disturbing. This isn't the average xbox troll running into someone and saying a nasty thing. There are people who stalk twitter waiting for discussions to come up that they disagree with, and then they rally their friends and attack en mass. Last week a group descended on Zelda Williams on twitter for feminist remarks. Take a look through her feed for a sample of what was sent her way. And apparently there are "men's rights" communities & boards where these people hang out.
It's stuff I would not have believed really happened before twitter.
I know. I realized I had blinders on when my wife explained the signs she used to judge whether a man she encountered in a potentially dangerous situation - such as having just arrived to meet a friend and finding the parking lot deserted - is dangerous or not.
I've started trying to pay more attention, even to the silly but still poisonous stuff we see everyday. We took our kids to amusement park this summer. Within the space of an hour, I saw (1) a 20 something guy in a shirt that read "Cool story, babe, now go make me a sandwich!" in all caps, and (2) a middle age guy in a shirt that read "Lost wife and dog. Reward offered for dog." Stupid, casual misogyny that people accept and that you can't criticize because it's "just a joke."
I've always heard of this, but never really experienced it or heard it happening to someone I know. That may also be because I live in the midwest and we typically don't walk or use public transportation. Super weird and creepy though.
Maidenpool?
Member
Not necessarily "know better" ... just my take on who exactly is harassing them.
Basic summary is this -
Young boys acting like punks + older weirdos who don't "participate" in society continue to harass female gamers online
In response, female game journalist will publish an article about the issue of gender which is directed at everyone. (As it should be)
I should add - it just seems kind of redundant. I know it's important to let people know what's going on, but the young kids who harass online will never read these articles, and the weirdos who harass and stalk women online aren't going to change their stripes anytime soon.
licktheenvelope
Member
That's odd. As a Westcoaster I have never seen something like that.
The Librarian
Banned
It happens everywhere.
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but are you a woman who also regularly takes public transportation?
On a side note, in terms of how people treat women, something that always irks me is when someone calls a woman "ma'am." I'm a firm believer you should always call a woman you don't know "miss." Even if the woman is, say, a great-grandmother in her 90s. I wouldn't want any woman to ever think there's something about them that suggests they seem "old." Not that there's shame in age -- there's not -- but it's natural everyone wants to be perceived more "youthfully." So I just stick to "miss," when calling out to women I don't know, and it always seems a bit insensitive when other people use "ma'am," although I know they don't mean ill.
Maidenpool?
Member
Drunk frat bros have always had a tendency to act like they are 13...
Actually, replace "always" with "ever since Animal House came out" according to my Dad.
did you just like skip my massive post which proves you demonstrably wrong with a shit fuck of links showing it is PLENTY of adults who absolutely participate in society who do this shit?
What's wrong with you? Do you want to have an actual conversation about this subject, or just persist in your logical fallacies?
The Librarian
Banned
I have no problem with it. I like being ma'am'ed, in fact.