probably not worth it for bungie since its not that much better
Digital Foundry: Destiny Beta XB1 analysis and PS4 comparison
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
probably not worth it for bungie since its not that much better
Close to parity? As an Xbox One owner, I'll take 180p less than PS4. That doesn't bother me, pretty close IMO.
Mass Effect
Member
Must. Not. Name-quote.
And yes, he IS entitled to spend his own money how he sees fit, even if it is for seemingly petty reasons. The developers are not *entitled* to his money.
This is the first game utilizing the new SDK and kinect resources though. MSoft also had engineers come out and help bungie optimize the game. Maybe the previous multi platform games would have similar outcomes given the same circumstances.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
SDK and such wouldn't overcome the HW advantage. PS4 has a fine set of tools. Sending help is not something we should have to discuss. It is what it is.
You know this how? You have some sort of insider knowledge? Proof is in the pudding, and we will discuss sending help because it happened, and there was a measurable outcome from it.
We know the specs from both consoles because both Sony and Microsoft have said what they are.
Is there any way to measure that PS4s tools "are just fine" though, or on par or better with Xbox One's current tools?
What's your ultimate argument when it comes to tools? Is there some inherent limit to how good the PS4 tools can ever be so that the 40% ALU difference can be overcome?
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
By stating that somehow one's SDK/SW is better or more advanced then this thread takes a turn. I think you misread my posts. PS4 is more powerful and has fine tools. Nothing more. Unless you're implying MSFT has some magic parity matching SW? Now that wold be conjecture. They sent guys, moving along from that.
I think I'm starting to remember you based on some past post's. You're very pro Xbox so I suppose that explains your logic.
badcrumble
Member
Yep. And the fact that Microsoft sent people to work on it ought to be, I think, enough to calm people down about this. We can assume that Bungie put in the same amount of work on each platform; yes, getting the XB1 visuals up to snuff would require extra work, and that effort was put in by Microsoft, not by Bungie themselves.
My ultimate argument is what has been shown. A beta that runs at 900p on xbox one runs exactly the same as the 1080p beta on PS4.
The Xbox 360 version runs better than the PS3 version, which IMO shows that Bungie is willing to utilize each system's strengths to their full potential.
A bungie dev even stated in this thread they will be utilizing all the strengths of each console.
This is also a beta, who knows what the final result will be. I personally wouldn't be surprised if they ran exactly the same when released, and I also wouldn't be surprised if PS4 had the edge somewhere.
Riky
$MSFT
People are acting like doubling the framerate is some sort of simple task with a bit of extra power, anyone who has built a PC can tell you that is simply not the case. Doubling framerate at the same settings takes a big GPU upgrade, while the PS4 is more powerful we are talking about an R7 265 v an R7 260x in approximate terms. That isn't a double framerate leap although the 265 is a more capable card, even adding extra AA can have a sizeable performance hit, for the PS4 version if they could just ditch FXAA I would be content.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
That doesn't magically mitigate what advantages PS4 enjoys. Sending help or needing it implies enough in this case. The XB SKU needed more help.
Go ahead and look up my post history, I am pro Xbox, I own an Xbox One, and I thoroughly enjoy it. How does that change the fact that Destiny runs similarly on both machines? What does that have to do with anything?
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Bungie have made a career off their HW knowledge of 360. You're going to somehow correlate that with the current generation as if that's the magic answer?
Your slant only embeds your posts with less logic.
And same with yours. Who should I believe? You, or the Bungie dev? I'll go ahead and believe the guy actually creating the game.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
You're putting me on your level? If that was the case I wouldn't actively applaud and critique everyone as much as I do. There's no more discussion to be had as the cards are out. Enjoy your XB1.
Then why aren't they utilizing the PS4's better specs?
According to the dev in this thread, they are. Shoot him a PM and ask.
The game isn't out yet. This whole discussion is just a hypothetical.
It's entertaining to read this hypothetical defense with the Microsoft chef cooks and their secret sauce and the June SDK and all, but it still hasn't happened yet.
Pjsprojects
Member
Didn't realise the PS4 & Xbone were that sort of gap apart, being a pc gamer mostly I get from the above that in no way are massive upgrades possible on PS4. I have the beta on both Xbone & PS4 and really it's just down to which one has friends with the game.
just enjoy the game on whatever platform you own seeing as they are both nice enough.
So following your train of thought the ps4 and x1 are now equal and 360>ps3.
crappybannedjunior999999
Banned
Wow. Good point!
Dude. Seriously. Read the thread. People bring this up on every page how could you miss it? The argument then becomes that Bungie then had to devote EXTRA resources to ONE (ahem) version to the detriment of others.
Couldn't the same be said of multiplatform games where the PS3 port turned out to be close to the 360 version instead of inferior?
Even if you consider those consoles to be a case of "different design but equal power," the PS3's architecture was still needlessly frustrating and time consuming because of how much extra effort was needed to get the same results.
To be clear, I'm not saying the Xbox One is just as powerful and I do expect Bungie to use at least some of the extra resources available on the PS4, I just think some peoples' hang-ups on this are ill-considered.
Stuff like AA, shadows, ao etc can all be toggled in most engines at the flick of a switch. Not tweaking to suit individual hardware is just a waste.
360 > PS3 for most practical purposes. It has a unified pool of faster memory, a better GPU, and the main CPU core is basically the same as the PS3's except it has three of them.
And it's reasonable to assume Bungie will make some adjustments along these lines. They're not evil or incompetent.
crappybannedjunior999999
Banned
Absolutely! I don't recall it but I am CERTAIN it happened last gen. I consider it fucked up then too. Fuck parity. Two segments of people in the video game world are for parity. Devs and the group in whatever gen that ONLY owns the weaker console.
I think they will, to assume 1080p alone is "parity" is daft.
All other things being equal there's no reason for them not to flick a few extra switches.
theDeeDubs
Member
Basically my thoughts as well. I feel like people are overestimating the "on paper" specs here and how much they will affect real world graphical differences. I've played several games on both, switching inputs back and forth, and I've yet to play a game with significant differences. I'm sure Bungie was targeting 1080/30 for Destiny and if they were able to also reach it with the help of the update and MS engineers, I see no reason to cry foul here. Anyone who has played both versions of the beta can clearly see that the PS4 will have some extra bells and whistles, like better draw distance and less pop-in. Regardless we'll have to wait and see how the 1080 update affects frame rate of the XB1 version. I noticed a lot of that IGN video had very slow pans from side to side, which left me wondering if it was to cover up screen tear or fps drops.
Bungie has stated that the PS4 is Destiny's lead development platform.
And seeing as how it has the largest user base, and is getting all this exclusive content, I'd say it's the console they're focusing on the most in any regard.
I think, the main point here is that Bungie have a lot on their plate. As such I don't believe that any version of Destiny is optimized for their relative platforms to the greatest extent. I don't want to undermine Bungie's teams, i'm sure the game has been optimized very well for each platform up to now. However, if Microsoft hadn't offered up their own engineers to uptake the responsibility of optimizing the game for the Xbox One, it would have released in its beta form at 900p even with the GPU resources freed.
Bungie just wants to develop a great game that runs well on all platforms, but that's all they are, game developers. They aren't a bunch of specialist genius engineers with the knowledge to optimize all systems to their fullest potential. They don't have the time or the resources to squeeze the absolute best performance out of every single aspect of every single task. If you glitch through some walls in Old Russia, you'll see the amount of out-of-sight objects that for some reason are rendered. It's just Bungie for you, man. It's not lazy, it's just how they do shit. If you don't like it then don't buy games made by Bungie.
Ideally Sony should have sent down some of its own engineers to help with the overhead, but it seems they did not. Why? Maybe because they, just like most people in this thread, believed the PS4 does everything on its own, just because it's 'more powerful'. No need for optimization. No need for man-power, resources, or the knowledge and experience of anything. It's just more powerful. It does it all. Nobody even needs to develop games for it. It does it itself. 1000x AA, flips its own switch. 4k, yup, auto-flip that switch. Dynamic lighting and shadows? Flip switch. Max everything, win at life, yup, maximum cannon switch, flipped. New motion control technology? Sleep until presentation is finished.
Microsoft made a good decision in sending down it's engineers. It means more Xbox One sales and more sales of Destiny on Xbox One. They were willing to contribute those resources for a better product on their platform, and more sales in the long run. It's good for both parties. It's really nothing to do with parity or lazy developers. 900p to 1080p is not parity. That's how it would have been, that's how it was 'supposed' to be. You would all have liked it that way. But Microsoft said fuck this, here's our best, let them tinker, we have the extra 10% now and we'll do our best. We'll make it great for Xbox One, in turn making the Xbox One great. More sales for everyone!
If you want Destiny on PS4 to be the best it can be, you need to inform Sony to get their engineers over to Bungie and open up the book of tips and tricks, and lend their man-power and knowledge to an already over-stretched studio.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
This was already a back and forth at another point in this thread. Sony should have to send help isn't an answer or some kind of point of discussion. The fact is that MSFT sent or Bungie requested help. The long drawn out point doesn't change facts of how both consoles are not the same spec. I don't care to let anyone know what to do when it comes to taking advantage of superior HW such as PS4. It's up to Bungie on how they use that. Not Sony sending help. Every multi platform game has just about been noticeably better on PS4. Bungie, a top rate dev house, can't figure it out? It's literally not my problem.
I didn't make it but you can clearly see why his joke point was more in line with what the one who was saying it was MSFT's engineers and help that managed to somehow negate the PS4's HW advantage. It's like magic basically. All at the same time, point out how the 360 was clearly superior in spec and it showed but not showing the same rationale for the current cycle when the PS4 has clear and sizeable advantages. You should cherry pick through TK Turks post's if you're going to call him out for basically calling the other out. It doesn't just work for pointing out people who may criticize your platform of choice or contrasting with your views.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
This is ludicrous. Sony and MS are supposed to send people to 3rd parties and hold their hand so they can do their job? Bungie has a responsibility to hire talent and exploit them. The odds are Bungie had no issues hitting their target on the PS4, but their target was low for parity sake. The bottom line is X man-hours on the PS4 would get better results than X on the XB1. They picked 1080P 30fps, which was easy for the PS4 and then moved on to the squeaky wheel XB1, which they are still trying to reach the target. I say fuck that noise, spend the same time on both and let's see what they reach. Different hardware, different results.
I don't own a XB1, my original posts were on the topic of why Bungie is shooting for parity between systems (4 platforms, not a first party developer, ect..)
Concerning the chalkboard post, this place is supposed to be a site for all gamers and yet a sad majority of the time any topic on the XB1 turns into a steaming pile of shit which I have no doubt discourages XB1 owners from bothering to post here.
The chalkboard jab served no purpose to the conversation except to insult
I don't really understand your feelings on the whole "MS sending help" thing to be honest. If the game was going to be 900p on Xbox One and 1080p on PS4 without the added help, are you suggesting that Bungie should have turned this offer down? Or if the MS engineers helped to boost the Xbox One version up to 1080p, should Bungie then be obligated to return to the PS4 and commit an equivalent amount of extra optimisation to balance out what the MS guys did? If MS is willing to send additional help and Sony isn't, why is this Bungie's problem when it comes to the PS4 version?
I've never personally been bothered about supposed "parity" between builds, unless the product performs poorly across the board. We all like to point at PS3 ports of games like Skyrim or Bayonetta, and talk about how disastrous they are, but we don't have any way of knowing that those versions didn't see an equal amount of development time to the Xbox 360 version, and this was the end result. When id stated that they were needing to focus more time on the PS3 version of Rage because the console's architecture was tripping them up at every turn, I didn't see that as a bad thing. The PS3 version shouldn't have been released in a near busted state just to ensure 360 owners could feel better about their choice of console, and id shouldn't then have to budget for additional development to the 360 version once the PS3 one is no longer lagging massively behind.
The problem I have with most of these parity complaints is that they're not even really about the PS4 version not being good enough. In most cases people are happy with the product when they initially see/play it, and assume the Xbox One version will be noticeably worse. People simply seem to be rather annoyed that the other version isn't inferior enough...
Yes, the Order 1886 and The Last of Us threads are just happy happy fun times. That poor Xbone.
Ask WiiU or Vita owners how they feel about their threads? All threads are horrible at the moment.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Why do you think I don't make those half witted posts when I try to have a good conversation? My point stands, the joke post was more to mock Turks posts and I already read them so I hope you did. There's not more to it than that. One joke for another.
To the 1st paragraph - I commented on others bring that point up. I was not the original person to bring up the help but clearly if they need help then they are either in a bad spot or really need help in getting the XB version up to par with PS4. But again, that isn't my problem. It's Bungie's game, everything revolving their game is their problem. I shouldn't have to cast it so basically but there it is.
2nd paragraph - If you surmise the good and well rounded posts with the one offs then that's a you problem. I have no problem or annoyance with what we know. Clearly the reason for a long winded discussion is due to some less rounded posts. I have problem with double standards like Turks up there. Others have already quoted him enough.
And please, don't blanket statement and be vague, name who has that problem as you noted. That way we can tell them not to lose sleep over this.
While your whole post is pretty much on point. This bit right here is the ultimate truth.
This guy, this guy right here is the epitome of what you're saying. It's pathetic really.
People will either buy the game because its good, or they won't. No one will NOT buy the game because the Xbox One version is just as good. Anyone who claims that was never going to buy the game anyway.
Double standard posts? What are you talking about? My comparison between PS3 and Xbox 360? I could really care less about which one of those is superior. The point I was trying to make was that Bungie didn't force parity for the last gen versions, why would it make sense to do it for current gen? Realistically, if both games ran with a frame rate uncapped, there's no doubt in my mind that the PS4 would run 15-20% higher frame rate. They probably also could use resources on other effects since the frame rate is capped, I can't answer why they won't though. I'm just stating, that they didn't hold back or force parity last gen, I find it odd that they would for current gen.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
In a technical discussion, I see little in value to the conversation. I see an on point post and then I see one which says people are buying it because it's good. That's nice but this is a technical discussion, not one of merit.
I've spent enough time reading your posts. I, along others, quoted you earlier. Seek those posts for further clarity.
crappybannedjunior999999
Banned
I'll try one more time. What people suggested earlier in the thread, myself included, was that Bungie seems to have put more time and man hours into the One version. Microsoft's engineers had to work side by side with Bungie employees, these are man hours utilized to improve only ONE console. They didn't just hand Microsoft the keys to the office and then leave for the weekend while the engineers worked their magic.
It's the seeming disparity of resources that bothers people not the fact that Microsoft helped Bungie.
Xbox One- Time spent with engineers to get to Microsoft's required/desired resolution and performance. Time spent improving the game beyond what Bungie deemed was acceptable.
PS4- No additional time or resources allocated for performance reasons to our knowledge.
You may not have seen it but Bungie's community manager came here and stated that the advantages of all systems will be utilized. It is my belief that he was not speaking of rumble triggers and touch pads. We can only wait and see what the final product will bring and judge at that point. Up until then almost this whole discussion is conjecture.
I'm at a loss of how to even argue anymore
The game needs to achieve certain benchmarks, time to develop on the PS3,360,PS4 and XB1 will not be evenly split. They will take the time required to achieve those benchmarks.
By your odd logic, how do you know that working with MS engineers did not speed up to development time vs working solo on the PS4?
or that the PS4 code was not started way before the XB1?
TrueGrime
Member
So if it's conjecture and not fact, why is it bothering people so much? It's like you're cancelling yourself out.