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[Karsticles]

I finished ALBW a few weeks ago, and while I enjoyed it, the puzzles were more of a nuisance to me than anything enjoyable. While I felt LTTP dungeons were interesting and well thought out, ALBW dungeons were organized such that I felt like I was just walking along blindly doing various busy puzzles.

Sure, there were a few solid, puzzles, like the Pegasus Boots lair, but most of it was just waiting to get the right item to do the obvious thing. I went on tvtropes to look up game puzzles, and I was amazed by how neatly many of the Zelda puzzles fit in. When I played Alundra a year ago, many puzzles stumped me for several minutes, but ALBW felt obvious and straightforward for the most part.

Recently, we had a thread on GAF where someone said later Zelda titles focus too much on puzzles, and not enough on monsters. Thinking about it, I share that perspective. ALBW had one of the weakest boss sets in the entire franchise history. Even the Tower of Terror was easy. I just never felt challenged or afraid of the foes I was facing.

So I ask you GAF: do the puzzles even matter? Would things be better if the game was focused on the combat mechanics, or something else?

 

[Mr-Joker]

Puzzle in dungeon is one of the things I enjoy in the Zelda and I agreed with you on how Link Between worlds just stripped it down to bare bone which hampered my enjoyment.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Puzzles matter to me, they need to be in Zelda.

 

[DNAbro]

Puzzles are essential. ALBW didn't really have clever ones, most of them really just required a mix of the flat ability and dungeon item.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Puzzles are 90% Zelda to me.

 

[Freezasaurus]

Without puzzles, what's the point? It's one of the things that makes Zelda what it is.

 

[Minion101]

How important is flying and a cape to superman?

 

[Bringer Of Bacon]

Zelda doesn't seem to have a sense of adventure of thrill anymore. It's just a reskinned professor Layton

 

[Ambient80]

Without puzzles, what's the point? It's one of the things that makes Zelda what it is.

I had almost the exact same thought run through my head as soon as I read the thread title.

 

[massoluk]

How could you ask this after Skyward Sword deliver unto us the time puzzles?

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Gameplay wise, the single most important thing to me.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Fairly important. ALBW had some of the worst and nost simplistic puzzles in a mainline zelda. It didn't completely ruin the game, but it's easily the biggest flaw.

 

[kunonabi]

Puzzles are 90% Zelda to me.

same here. combat has only been interesting twice in the whole series for me.

 

[Woffls]

I'm trying to imagine Zelda without puzzles, and it just amounts to walking through rooms of enemies until you find a big key, then you go back to the big door and defeat the big enemy... then you warp outside and go around for a bit.

 

[PVR]

They should go away and never return. For me Zelda should be action oriented.

 

[DNAbro]

How could you ask this after Skyward Sword deliver unto us the time puzzles?

so right. Some people might hate skyward sword but it has hands down some of the best puzzles in the series.

Those time stones were just amazing.

They should go away and never return. For me Zelda should be action oriented.

Describe what a zelda game would look like without puzzles.

 

[Platy]

Without puzzles there would be no Dungeuns .... without Dungeuns the game would have like 10 minutes =P

 

[shaowebb]

Love puzzles in Zelda. Its a big part of the appeal. It'd feel pretty stale and generic without them to add character to the world after all these years.

 

[Taruranto]

Can't believe people are calling ALBW puzzles bad. They were much better than TP and of course WW ones to me.

 

[Coffee Dog]

How could you ask this after Skyward Sword deliver unto us the time puzzles?

Skyward sword had some of the best puzzles in recent zeldas. However, such puzzles require linearity, which many, many gamers don't want.

 

[Marjar]

Usually, they're a pretty big deal for me, but at the same time, my favorite Zelda games are Wind Waker and ALBW, which didn't necessarily have the greatest puzzles, but the games were pretty goddamn amazing.

So I guess they're important, but I find that the best Zelda games are the ones that are greater than the sum of their parts.

 

[Archaix]

Puzzles are far, far more important than enemies and combat. I'd sooner get rid of the sword than puzzles in dungeons.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Pretty utmost. Though they don't have to be "hard", just make me feel "smart" when I've solved them. I'd love a "Master Quest" mode for second playthroughs of Zelda games, though.

 

[BolognaSoup]

If puzzles in a Zelda game aren't important to you, I have just solution...

 

[Glass Rebel]

Single most important aspect of the series to me but they do have to rethink them. I'm fine with Twilight Princess being the last refinement of traditional Zelda puzzles and Skyward Sword took a step in the right direction but they need to go even further.

 

[sn00zer]

Most of Zelda is pretty meh to me outside of boss battles which are incredible....so most of my dungeoning is "When do I get to the boss fight?"

 

[Nimajneb]

Very important. It's the whole reason for the dungeons to exist, the Zelda combat has never been interesting outside of boss fights.

That said, I do hope future Zelda focus more on exploration and adventure. Skyward Swrod had great dungeons, and the levels leading up to them were good the first time through, but the over world stuff was mostly crap.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Can't believe people are calling ALBW puzzles bad. They were much better than TP and of course WW ones to me.

They're overly simplistic and only ever require one item. They aren't critically terrible, but it's a massive oversight that fucks up the difficulty curve something fierce.

 

[-MD-]

They should go away and never return. For me Zelda should be action oriented.

Play Darksiders instead?

 

[Karsticles]

Follow-up question: do you think it is better when puzzles are necessary to move forward, or when they are optional for side benefits, like heart pieces? What makes for a good puzzle?

 

[QisTopTier]

Zelda series after 2 have always been pretty heavy on puzzles. If you want a more action based series try out the Ys series.

Personally I think puzzles are super important to the Zelda series, I just wish the combat was better as well.

 

[FStubbs]

so right. Some people might hate skyward sword but it has hands down some of the best puzzles in the series.

Those time stones were just amazing.



Describe what a zelda game would look like without puzzles.

Zelda 1 and 2. No puzzles (unless you consider mazes and push this block here to be puzzles). Great games.

I want to get lost in Zelda again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOMkQh7f7Q

Cheesy 80s commercial, but no mention of puzzles at all. This is what I want from my Zelda.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Skyward sword had some of the best puzzles in recent zeldas. However, such puzzles require linearity, which many, many gamers don't want.

Let the dungeons be linear, but they can be done in any order. With things like the Time shift stones, they rely more on things in the dungeons themselves rather than in your inventory, so I think balance can be achieved.

 

[PVR]

so right. Some people might hate skyward sword but it has hands down some of the best puzzles in the series.

Those time stones were just amazing.



Describe what a zelda game would look like without puzzles.

My dream zelda would be a third person Skyrim. A Vast world to explore and action oriented gameplay. Throw epic boss battles to the mix and we have a winner. Actual zelda gameplay is not connecting with newer audiences and sells are showing It.

 

[Mr-Joker]

They should go away and never return. For me Zelda should be action oriented.

There are many other action oriented game go and play those because puzzle is part of the Zelda core.

Describe what a zelda game would look like without puzzles.

Probably something akin to Hyrule Warriors.

Skyward sword had some of the best puzzles in recent zeldas. However, such puzzles require linearity, which many, many gamers don't want.

Well gamers are just going to have to suck it because Link Between World puzzle were terribly bland and didn't require any thought what so ever.

Unless Nintendo somehow manages to find a balance to please both party.

 

[rjc571]

The puzzles are what makes the Zelda series great. Without puzzles they would be average action games.

 

[DNAbro]

Zelda 1 and 2. No puzzles (unless you consider mazes and push this block here to be puzzles). Great games.

I want to get lost in Zelda again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOMkQh7f7Q

Cheesy 80s commercial, but no mention of puzzles at all. This is what I want from my Zelda.

Zelda 1 definitely had puzzles. They aren't very good for the most part but it definitely has them. Zelda 2 is the only one i haven't played.

and good thing cause the next zelda is supposed to be open world. I'm hoping it works out well.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

A zelda game without puzzles is a bad zelda game. Twilight princess had the best dungeons and puzzles and I wish they go more that route. They also need to make some sidequests with extra hard puzzles so for those that want the challenge they can go for them.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Puzzles are 90% Zelda to me.

Pretty much.
The puzzle design in Zelda is incredibly important to me, and it's important to the franchise's unique action-adventure identity.
I adore how EAD3 manages to combine action-platformer mechanics with heavy adventure game elements like puzzles; it makes the dungeon/level design incredibly satisfying overcome, and fun to interact with.

I really don't think I'd be into Zelda if it was devoid of it's trademark puzzle design.

 

[Jachaos]

Very important. One of my favourite gameplay elements, if not my favourite.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

My dream zelda would be a third person Skyrim. A Vast world to explore and action oriented gameplay. Throw epic boss battles to the mix and we have a winner. Actual zelda gameplay is not connecting with newer audiences and sells are showing It.

I think the most epic boss battles are puzzles themselves, like in Shadow of the Colossus. Just dealing damage to a huge monster wouldn't do it for me.

 

[-MD-]

My dream zelda would be a third person Skyrim. A Vast world to explore and action oriented gameplay. Throw epic boss battles to the mix and we have a winner. Actual zelda gameplay is not connecting with newer audiences and sells are showing It.

Doesn't Skyrim already allow third person and have big dragon bosses and shit? Just play Skyrim.

I don't understand why people wanna take an already existing game and bend/mold it into another game that already exists.

 

[Glass Rebel]

My dream zelda would be a third person Skyrim. A Vast world to explore and action oriented gameplay. Throw epic boss battles to the mix and we have a winner. Actual zelda gameplay is not connecting with newer audiences and sells are showing It.

So your dream Zelda would just drop everything that makes the series unique?

 

[SkyOdin]

Puzzles are a critical element of the Zelda series. The series would not be the same without them. Even Zelda 1 and 2 used very simplistic puzzles to help in their exploration. Puzzles and exploration are far more important the series than combat, which has always been a secondary element to the franchise.

In any case, we recently got Skyward Sword, which was a very combat-focused Zelda game (many of its boss fights relied solely on sword fighting skill over any puzzle mechanics, and it had a lot of relatively easy puzzles). So I am not sure why people are clamoring for the next Zelda game to be even more combat focused.

Where is this sentiment that Zelda needs more combat coming from anyways? It feels like something that appeared only recently.

 

[Ansatz]

Puzzle solving is the central reason I love the Zelda series. I found ALBW to be one of the best actually in that aspect, even though I also think the modern entries overall lack complexity and challenge, this is true for boss fights as well. That said I was still very satisfied with ALBW, but that was more due to the temple/puzzle designs themselves, not because they stimulated me intellectually. I mean the idea/mechanism itself, for instance that you can place a bomb near a flip switch and quickly merge onto a wall that rotates as the bomb explodes. While the solution was pretty obvious, the idea itself was very satisfying to me. Same with bosses, I love experiencing them even though they go down quick and easy. Zelda is a brilliant series in that sense. If I want to push my brain to the limit there is Spacechem and Sudoku, but at the same time I love experiencing cool ideas and designs in Zelda.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

So your dream Zelda would just drop everything that makes the series unique?

I think that could be an interesting formula for Castlevania, more than for Zelda.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Follow-up question: do you think it is better when puzzles are necessary to move forward, or when they are optional for side benefits, like heart pieces? What makes for a good puzzle?

Both are important to me though I prefer mainline puzzles as the dungeons that contain them are a major part of why I'm playing Zelda. As for what makes a good puzzle, well all it really needs is to be clever and require me to look around and evaluate my surroundings. All in all It isn't necessary for a good puzzle to use multiple items (it can certainly help though) or even be discreet that it's a puzzle, it just has to have a clever solution that I don't immediately get right off the bat.

For example one of my favorite Zelda puzzles is the ice block puzzle at the beginning of Snowpeak Mansion in TP. The solution is obvious; get the block onto the switch, but how you solve said puzzle is much more complex due to the nature of the slippery ice.

 

[Coffee Dog]

So your dream Zelda would just drop everything that makes the series unique?

He's probably right that it would sell more, in that case.

 

[StuBurns]

Not at all. I don't feel like the series has to restrict itself to any of it's well trodden tropes. If they wish to still include them though, I certainly won't be disappointed.

 

[Killer]

the puzzles is Zelda for me.