ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Why is horror entertaining? Why are mob movies/action movies entertaining? Some violence is entertaining.
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
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Why is horror entertaining? Why are mob movies/action movies entertaining? Some violence is entertaining.
Although this point of "men are harmed too!" is irrelevant to the argument being made, you also have to consider the way in which violence is implemented in the game as worldbuilding. With women, they are often sexualized and even rationalized as "prostitutes" to make their attire justified in the fictional context of the game in question.
But I don't think it's prudent to argue that men and women are equally exposed to violence in video games.
The quote from Sarkeesian is a counterargument against people who claim that sexualized violence is historically intrinsic to the represented world, when the represented world contains abundant instances of historical inaccuracies. It's not about when or how suspension of belief is established.
Entertainment and education are not mutually exclusive. Knowledge can be fun, just as fun can provide knowledge.
And you'd be surprised how many people actually form their beliefs about the world and history through media. E.g. there were lots of Black cowboys in the Western period in the US, yet we hardly never see them depicted in fiction and media (Blueberry is a counter example). In turn, a lot of people believe most, if not all cowboys back then were White people.
Why advocate censoring art?
That's not the point. The point is that there is most often a wealth of options for dealing with something that happens in a game. There is often a lot of depth and intrigue to the story and characters involved. I cannot recall such depth and intrigue related to a mission/quest like I described.
CambriaRising
Member
I mean, its supposed to motivate the player to take action. Not exactly meant to be enjoyed, so to speak.
But it is on a basic level. Its essentially "Why are you okay with Superman's laser beam eyes, but not his disguise" as a counter argument. Like I said, suspension of disbelief is nuanced so the argument doesn't exactly work that plainly. Thats all I was trying to say. I agree with the point at large.
Because they usually have a bit more depth involved than 'a man attacks a sex worker, now go kill him'.
who is doing that?
JesseEwiak
Member
Ignoring the fact that whether a AAA game is a art instead of a product (and yes, I question whether Transformers 4 is art as well), the idea that asking people to do something different than their first impulse isn't censorship. Wanting more diversity in gaming isn't censorship of some 30-something white guys idea of an all white main cast isn't censorship, it's showing him a possibly better idea. Asking a largely male game design industry to think twice about throwing in sexualized violence in every game isn't censorship, it's just asking them, "hey, maybe your game will be better this way."
TheActtionFigure
Member
I think that Anita could serve her point better by setting out to make a game that falls in line with her message & sensibilities. My friend and I used to complain that Black culture was woefully misrepresented or underrepresented in this medium. But one day while discussing the issue I brought up a point about how in order to accurately represent us, and defy certain tropes, we'd have to make the game ourselves. How could we expect these developers, most of which are white males that grew up middle class, to represent the point of view of a black male from the hood? We came to the conclusion that they couldn't and that it's disingenuous to critique them for lacking the ability to do so.
Gender & sexual tropes have a similar problem. How can a group full of male writers & developers accurately represent modern feminist sensibilities? They can't! That thing dangling between our legs holds more sway over our lives as males than many of you seem to think. I agree that gaming could use some changes, but at the end of the day we are critiquing an art form. Sometimes in order to see the picture that you want to see you have to paint it yourself.
Gender & sexual tropes have a similar problem. How can a group full of male writers & developers accurately represent modern feminist sensibilities? They can't! That thing dangling between our legs holds more sway over our lives as males than many of you seem to think. I agree that gaming could use some changes, but at the end of the day we are critiquing an art form. Sometimes in order to see the picture that you want to see you have to paint it yourself.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
In Dishonored you can send the head pimp to go work in a coal mine for the rest of his life rather than kill him.
Yes, but while prostitues are killed, regular women in regular dressings are also killed, yet she brings up both examples as sexualized violence?
Garjon said:
I think you'll often find they don't.
Unless you are likening most games to planescape, I think you aren't being critical enough with your assessment here.
I think the thing is that she's not saying there were societies where it wasn't a problem, but rather that there were societies that addressed that there was a problem with it and tried to do something about it. Again, it seems like there's an issue with a lot of these open world games where sexual violence just seems to be casually thrown in and just kind of accepted as an inevitable reality. That one Far Cry 3 scene was particularly disgusting in how the game casually had a scene of that pimp beating a prostitute only for them to quietly go back to their scripted wandering after the scene ended.
Admittedly, I myself would have loved for her to give a specific example of a case where a society, because (as I noted) that she could call upon the vikings as an example of a society actually doing that would really hit that idea home that you can totally have a fantasy/historical game where you don't have such casual portrayals of sexual violence.
Like, you could have totally had Dragon Age, as a fantasy game with a fantasy setting clearly inspired by northern Europe, where you don't have characters so casually joking about raping the peasantry.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I don't know about that. By all means yes, it's the standard. And of course, women are portrayed just as poorly on the big screen in hollywood action movies. Seems that Scarlet Johansson (Black Widow) is the ultimate written by men, for men brainless sex thing. Her character really has the depth of a piece of paper.
But reading the quote. I think Assassins Creed II and Brotherhood actually did a good job, portraying things from the perspective of both Ezios mother and his sister.
There are several scenes about Ezio oppressing his Sister for taking over the whore brothel, and they eventually work it out, but I felt the directing did a good job of showing her character as strong, but oppressed in a mans world. She actually felt like an actual woman with a brain.
Much more than the love interest in revelations, who while sweet and cute, was very much a helpless princess fantasy character.
I am not mentioning this to prove some point - I get what is being said. 99% of all action games (and most action movies) really are jesus christ. I like when directors know their limitations. For example I heard that peter jackson had his wife direct the love scenes in the original lord of the rings series to give a woman's touch and perspective, so it did not become "written for men, by men".
That's the real problem. Same thing with Kill Bill. The Bride was a bad ass character because Uma wrote her own character and told Tarantino that this and that was unrealistic for a woman to do. Just think about it - Kill Bill 2 literally ends with her crying on the bathroom floor crying over having her kid back. Almost no films ends like that! But thats so much more real than some nonsense with a female action hero like those roles Milla Jovovich, scarlet johanson, angelina jolie and so on have portrayed. All their characters have less authenthism than a cardboard box. picked for their looks they act as believable as a porn star in a pornfilm.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Describing Far Cry 3: "A pimp beats up a female prostitute of color."
Strange that she felt the need to emphasize that.
Strange that she felt the need to emphasize that.
Reading a couple of hits I got. Yeah I get the idea they dont like it much, I think personal attacks are a bit overboard but I get it must be pretty rage inducing to be faced with this kind of game.
ART
Yes.
stufte
Member
ART
Yes?
As far as the video goes, my first thought is that she ignores the context of the sexualized women in strip clubs/bordellos/etc. and goes on to ponder why the men in those scenes aren't equally sexualized. All of these scenes she's shown so far will no doubt elicit an emotional response from her viewers, stacked on top of eachother like they are in the video makes it seem like these situations are the focus of these video games, when in actuality they are not. Scenes like this are meant to make the player angry, take revenge and hate the antagonists. Innocent people are used in this manner all the time in games, and not just women.
I do agree with her though that it's used to punctuate the seediness of the game world.
And that's a bit better. Though we are still in 'exception to the rule' territory here. And even still, that still doesn't make such a mission a deep and insightful take on the subject, especially compared to other missions based around tricky subjects in that game.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
ART
Who's to say what is and isn't art?
For instance, if I was an asshole snob about it, I could describe this particular scene as showcasing how life can end on the flip of the coin, or that for a mobster, you are always living on the edge.
njean777
Member
ART
also, criticism does not equal censorship.
I see nothing wrong with that scene.
it's always the jr's, isn't it...
on topic, i've been a huge supporter of this series and am all around in anita's corner on this. it's frustrating for me to see the inability of a lot of people who share my hobby to empathize with the struggle that is clearly outlined and defined within her well reasoned arguments. the information is there for you to see plain as day. the willful ignorance and dismissal is truly, truly sad.
Not going to chime in on the current argument, but I can't say I agree with this statement. I felt the first two videos made convincing points but I feel the last two have been poor personally in terms of conveyance.
Let's not turn this into an "Is it art?" debate. I was just making light of how over-the-top and simple that the scene was. Disregard the gif then.
As entertaining as a murder spree. Yet everytime I see my friend playing GTA, he barricades himself in a place and starts shooting people until he's eventually shot dead.
I definitely believe people can educate themselves through media, I just don't believe gaming can. Teaching math and spelling and I agree, but when people expect a serious social discussion I think you're taking the industry a lot more serious than it does itself.
My point is that missions involving sexual violence do not have the same level of depth as missions involving other serious acts and as a result, it often feels like sex workers are inserted into a game's story/questline as a MacGuffin and nothing else.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Because maybe some of us aren't going to swallow everything told to us. It's ok to think what you want, but I'm all for equality, not just "fixing" things that some people find uncomfortable. If we want to fix sexism in video games let's do that, not just shovel out the BS.
Imru al-Qays;127014134 said:
Strange that the game did.
Just finished this one, thought it was really strong. The ending in particularly really articulates "why is does this series exist". She directly anticipates and pushes back against a ton of the standard arguments.
Gaming totally can, and it will do so at an increasing level as developers push for an increasing level of realism.
There's a very good reason that SpecOps: The Line exists, for example.
Both your statements are true? Yes, it is art, and yes, criticism does not equal censorship. Art is a category, not a value judgement.
I'm not advocating for the complete removal of unsavory parts of history (especially if it's done in an honest, thought provoking way). I just don't think developers need to use history as a crutch portray sexism. "BECAUSE THIS HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE" isn't a good reason, especially if a game has other embellishments. And if a game absolutely must portray sexism, then they shouldn't half ass it.
IIRC, the creator or creators of the game had been spamming the RPG.net forums for a while before the review, which I imagine didn't improve their disposition.
Thing is that the first step to fixing the inherent sexism in gaming is that we have to acknowledge that it's happening and how, and the entire purpose of this series is to do that.
trailmix16
Member
maybe, i thought this was the best one.
I can't help but finding every video I watched about her "researched" woman tropes rage inducing. I dunno, but the lack of objectiveness, pulling things out of context and cherry picking is just driving me up the walls. Didn't see all videos, but she still shows no signs of improvement, so I'm sure this was the last one I bothered to watch.
KiefbladeMaster
Member
Yes, because virtual prostitutes have always been a good way to go about securing market appeal..
Imru al-Qays
Banned
I'm not sure it's strange at all. The game is set somewhere in southeast Asia. Why would there be white prostitutes?
This sounds like what I've been wanting from her videos since the first one. Haven't watched it yet, (can't spend that much time on the net where I am) but that's been a big problem with her videos in general, that she's basically been reading off of a list and lightly touching on the issues, detailing the "what" but not the "why".
I'm looking forward to this, now.
Sexualized women are a pretty good way of appealing to the manchild demographic, yes. There are people who think the hilariously bad sex scenes done via QTE in God of War are genuinely awesome.
Yeah, me too. I wonder if it's worth going back and rewatching some of her older ones, maybe you'd get more out of it now.
cubicle47b
Member
The Elven alienage background story is one of the strongest parts of Dragon Age: Origins, especially if you're playing a female character.
Moon_frogger
Member
I wouldn't accept dragons and robots running rampant in red dead redemption either. It's all about context.
Oh I agree completely. "It really happened" is no excuse for bad writing. I must have misunderstood you then because I thought you were referring to it being portrayed in general.
spamming in what way? Promoting it or something?
AlimNassor
Banned
Equality is not BS.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Well that's probably the whole point of the scene in a game where you have demon arms.
I think it's fair to say that the ones arguing against *some* of her points are not saying we don't acknowledge that it isn't happening, I think we are arguing that she is calling out and critiquing the wrong things. A good chunk of her videos contain too many nitpicking points that don't make sense, rather than going for a truly "sexist" jugular. Again, I well agree that there is sexism in video games, but the murder of prostitues isn't part of it.
AlimNassor said:
I never said it was?
She is not a video game developer though. She is a video creator. Hence why she creates videos and not games to get her point across.
It's like if everytime you said a restaurant kind of sucked everyone said you should shut up and make a better restaurant instead.
You said that Sarkessian should not expect a proper commentary from an entertainment medium. How on earth does the way a friend of yours choose to play a game mean that gaming does not have a commentary. Especially since the GTA series actually does have a very notable commentary, if haphazardly executed.