New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)

Right, I feel you!

It's just that I am so cynical about our media (and our news) that just thinking about it makes me angry.

Perhaps most of all, it scares me how particularly black and Asian women are stigmatized by the beauty standards in Hollywood! I was in Beijing and was dumbfounded at how western looks, tendencies had infiltrated their society. Like they were trying to hide they were Asian. To think that these things are just re-affirmed constant images put in our heads in our entire lives and we don't even realize it. We can't see it, because it's just an add there, a Hollywood white washing portrayal over there, a misogynistic action film or video game over here.

Globalization of beauty is pretty screwed up.

Is there a Tyra Banks equivalent for Asians telling them there ethnicity is beautiful? The one study that disturbs me is when black girls were given a white, blonde doll and a black doll and felt the need to damn the black doll in favor of the white one. They expressed pretty clear signs of hatred for something that was suppose to represent them.

It's sad because I mirrored that sentiment as a kid too. It's certainly a thing...But it's not like you can fix it unless you make sure your kid never watches TV or a movie or a video game...or takes in any form of media depicting globalized feminine beauty. :P

I'm a bit hyper aware of sexism and racism...and I've studied the effects of the media as my concentration in school. So...it's not like I'd actively deny these things for any reason. You have no idea what kind of brain-washing powers I learned from advertising. >:)
Because that would be admitting to a desire for censorship, and we backed off that train real hard as soon as it was brought up.

Representation is different from censorship. As silly as it seems it could prevent people from killing themselves honestly...

Well, that doesn't automatically make them representative of the whole spectrum of videogames. I think that FIFA, Candy Crush and Minecraft are more descriptive of what videogames are for most people than No More Heroes 2, Red Dead Redemption and Far Cry 3.
To me it feels like someone taking pages from random horror novels and trying to say something about books (not even novels, just books in general).

Sure. But Game of the Year is where the passion is. That's where the heart of gaming is. The Game of the Year is what will be emulated for years to come. If an amazing game has excessive use of sexual violence, the next 20 games will try to outdo it in the sexual violence category. That's why it's a bit of a spiraling issue.
 
Globalization of beauty is pretty screwed up.

Is there a Tyra Banks equivalent for Asians telling them there ethnicity is beautiful? The one study that disturbs me is when black girls were given a white, blonde doll and a black doll and felt the need to damn the black doll in favor of the white one. They expressed pretty clear signs of hatred for something that was suppose to represent them.

It's sad because I mirrored that sentiment as a kid too. It's certainly a thing...But it's not like you can fix it unless you make sure your kid never watches TV or a movie or a video game...or takes in any form of media depicting globalized feminine beauty. :P

I'm a bit hyper aware of sexism and racism...and I've studied the effects of the media as my concentration in school. So...it's not like I'd actively deny these things for any reason. You have no idea what kind of brain-washing powers I learned from advertising. >:)


Representation is different from censorship. As silly as it seems it could prevent people from killing themselves honestly...

Restricting representation in the media is the definition of censorship.

Improvements in Gun Control and Mental Health Care would go much farther at preventing homicides than censoring sexist media would.
 
How do you propose she lives the rest of her life off of this? Her videos are only moderately popular and don't feature ads. Even if they did have ads, she has a fairly slow output. Those things don't add up to a lot of money, and her kickstarter, while a lot of money, isn't nest egg at 30 material.

Because she has something people are guaranteed to talk about at this day and age. It may not pay dividends if she just keeps her current YT channel, but she would be stupid to let the value of this topic go to waste. It is akin to religion and politics as it can never be resolved but will always cause people to come out of the woodwork to voice their opinion.
 
Anita's videos are pretty hollow. I could go to TVTropes and get a quicker and better picture of sexism in games and why it is negative to the perception of women.

However these videos usually perk up genuinely good discussions and get people talking and reflecting in both positive and negative ways.

Which is the only reason I'm mildly okay with them. Lol.
I feel the same way. Whether I think they're good or not doesn't matter much, as they do bring the subject in the spotlight, and I embrace any shot to talk about these things. Even if people still end up disagreeing with the concept and examples, they still had to think them over, which is important.

I totally agree apart from the bolded sentence. It's far from the entire spectrum. If you watch a TvW video you would say all videogames contain these tropes and rely on these narrative hooks. But it's actually something fairly common just in the narrative first- and third-person r-rated shooter action genre. Which is a subset of a subset of games, and not really the most popular. Why is this genre, which has a quite limited niche, taken as "all videogames".
You're right. It's painting it with a bit too broad of a stroke. AAA gaming should not really be the barometer of video games, as it would be a really narrow one. It's easy to lose track of this when it's the ones that get advertised the hardest and usually steal the spotlight in trade shows.
 
Restricting representation in the media is the definition of censorship.

Improvements in Gun Control and Mental Health Care would go much farther at preventing homicides than censoring sexist media would.

What are you talking about? You're in a completely different world, man. :P

What are we restricting? We're asking for more and less stereotypical representation of more things. That's pretty much it.
 
Because she has something people are guaranteed to talk about at this day and age. It may not pay dividends if she just keeps her current YT channel, but she would be stupid to let the value of this topic go to waste. It is akin to religion and politics as it can never be resolved but will always cause people to come out of the woodwork to voice their opinion.

While that may be her area of publicity, she doesn't have a big enough piece of the pie to make a living on it, really.

Most of the content with her name on it isn't even by her, it's just by people talking ABOUT her and her inflammatory content. While it can be said that there's no such thing as bad publicity when it comes to making money and getting famous, she doesn't have the content output to capitalize on it right now. Even if she monetized her youtube, it wouldn't be a living wage. And the harder she pushed in that direction, the more she'd have to deal with slander suits et al from the developers she's slamming.

Azoth's posts have been awful for several pages, and yet people keep replying to him.

Here. Now someone's replied to you. Hope it consoles your feelings regarding your useless, thought-unprovoking input thusfar.

Cheers.
 
While that may be her area of publicity, she doesn't have a big enough piece of the pie to make a living on it, really.

Most of the content with her name on it isn't even by her, it's just by people talking ABOUT her and her inflammatory content. While it can be said that there's no such thing as bad publicity when it comes to making money and getting famous, she doesn't have the content output to capitalize on it right now. Even if she monetized her youtube, it wouldn't be a living wage. And the harder she pushed in that direction, the more she'd have to deal with slander suits et al from the developers she's slamming.

How exactly is she slamming anyone? She's pointing out exactly what's in front of people. There would be no lawsuits. Plus it would be a PR nightmare for a development studio or publisher to sue a feminist personality.
 
What are you talking about? You're in a completely different world, man. :P

What are we restricting? We're asking for more and less stereotypical representation and more things. That's pretty much it.

Asking for less of something in the media is asking for censorship. That's pretty straight forward.

There's two routes to go, if you're looking to control it, really.

1.) Get people to buy/watch less of it.
2.) Limit how much of it is made.

#2 is censorship, and #1 isn't going to happen any time soon with the way games like Anita's Critques sell. They sell very well. You used the word "representation", and I'm not sure what you mean by that; are you asking for less representation of sexist stereotypes in the media? That would be attempting to control the media, which is what people are equating to censorship. The only natural way to make that happen, is to have a society/community that doesn't like those things. And right now, our society does. Male AND female.

If you're asking for people to like/watch/use said content less, you're going to have to accept the very real possibility that they, as a general public, will say no, and continue to like/watch/use said content, and that it's their right to do so, and game developers / movie directors / screenwriters right to make content that will be bought by them. A lot of the attitude here is "we demand change!", and that's not how social opinion works. Social opinion is slow and gradual. "We demand change!" is how law works, and the only way fast change can be applied to this situation is censorship.
 
How exactly is she slamming anyone? She's pointing out exactly what's in front of people. There would be no lawsuits. Plus it would be a PR nightmare for a development studio or publisher to sue a feminist personality.

If the industry I "slammed" gave me an award...well...

Yeah, either the industry is masochistic, or they're open to improving the industry in places they were previously blind to. (Probably a mix of both.)
 
Asking for less of something in the media is asking for censorship. That's pretty straight forward.

There's two routes to go, if you're looking to control it, really.

1.) Get people to buy/watch less of it.
2.) Limit how much of it is made.

#2 is censorship, and #1 isn't going to happen any time soon with the way games like Anita's Critques sell. They sell very well. You used the word "representation", and I'm not sure what you mean by that; are you asking for less representation of sexist stereotypes in the media? That would be attempting to control the media, which is what people are equating to censorship. The only natural way to make that happen, is to have a society/community that doesn't like those things. And right now, our society does. Male AND female.

If you're asking for people to like/watch/use said content less, you're going to have to accept the very real possibility that they, as a general public, will say no, and continue to like/watch/use said content, and that it's their right to do so, and game developers / movie directors / screenwriters right to make content that will be bought by them. A lot of the attitude here is "we demand change!", and that's not how social opinion works. Social opinion is slow and gradual. "We demand change!" is how law works, and the only way fast change can be applied to this situation is censorship.

I mean...

People used to be incredibly racist and sexist by today's standards. Obviously a lot of people had to open their eyes to see how f***ed up they were being. Making people aware of discrimination isn't censorship. The same way skepticism or atheism isn't censorship. It's just a way to get people thinking about things they don't wanna talk about.

I can't even believe I have to explain this.

Also, I already explained that both men and women deal with benevolent and hostile sexism. If they don't adhere to their "place" they are usually pushed out of their social circles...
 
I think it speaks to the state of the gaming community when we such rash and negatively passionate responses about a rather illustrative video with pretty irrefutable evidence of negative representation or treatment of female characters in games.

The examples she presented are prevalent and have been long-stays in our industry but we have quietly ignored them or simply accepted them as the only way to properly represent the worlds these games show to us.

Sad thing is that I myself have witnessed some of the examples she mentioned and never gave consideration whether or not it was proper or correct or the only way to properly convey what the game was trying to narrate to me. I think we should be more attentive and call out these unfair depictions of women, not get up in arms because some woman raised money "wrongly" to point it out to us, or try to dig up skeletons to discredit her words.
 
Just finished it. Is she attempting to say that Dishonored is sexist because when you point the Heart at the girls at the brothel you hear a bit of their life story and it's a bit sad and tragic ? Interesting point, considering if you point the Heart at just about everyone in the whole game it tells you some tragic detail of that NPC's life very frequently. That's what the Heart DOES, as it itself is a representation of the protagonist's tragic event that happened at the beginning of the game. Also, point of note, the zoom lens is for aim refinement and eavesdropping conversations, not zooming in on women. Doing that you could take out a rifle with a scope in the last of us and say the entire game is sexist and promotes pedophilia because you chose to zoom in on Ellie while she picked up a brick.

She makes some fair points with some of those examples, but there is also some very choice picks of unlikely player controlled actions and misunderstood theme interpretations that lend some of the things she says to criticism.
 
I think it speaks to the state of the gaming community when we such rash and negatively passionate responses about a rather illustrative video with pretty irrefutable evidence of negative representation or treatment of female characters in games.

The examples she presented are prevalent and have been long-stays in our industry but we have quietly ignored them or simply accepted them as the only way to properly represent the worlds these games show to us.

Sad thing is that I myself have witnessed some of the examples she mentioned and never gave consideration whether or not it was proper or correct or the only way to properly convey what the game was trying to narrate to me. I think we should be more attentive and call out these unfair depictions of women, not get up in arms because some woman raised money "wrongly" to point it out to us, or try to dig up skeletons to discredit her words.

With the way that gamers have and are behaving to any form of criticism against the status quo, I don't think gamers and video game culture deserve people like Sarkeesian (and many others to name). I think it's deplorable how incredibly toxic and misogynistic that the video game community has been shown to be against especially women.

Couple that with the amount of people who are really thickheaded and never actually just listen to what Sarkeesian has said over and over again. A ton of the counter-arguments by people who are still unable to see a problem with their precious video games have been debunked over and over again, yet it's seems like a never-ending stream of defending the status quo just for the sake of defending the status quo. It's sad to watch again and again.
 
References Watch Dogs.

Complains that half the time, the victims in interferences are Female, and the other half, they're male, but not sexualized like the females were. Stabbed and choked, sure, but not called a whore first, unacceptable disparity.

Makes no mention of the fact that the scumbag you have to stop from being a scumbag is pretty much always a guy, because only men can be scumbags in video games.

It's polemic to put it nicely, which is why is receives such a checkered response instead of being universally praised as insightful.
 
Here. Now someone's replied to you. Hope it consoles your feelings regarding your useless, thought-unprovoking input thusfar.

Cheers.
Fine, here's something thought provoking for you to chew on.

Why do you care so much?

Recently there seems to have been a HUGE uptick in this nonsense. Anytime anything even tangentially related to a feminist perspective on games shows up the comments absolutely EXPLODE. They explode with people coming up with all kinds of bizarre justifications for the sheer level of passion they have about largely inconsequential "news" related to that topic. See the Zoe Quinn catastrophe for a dramatic example of this.

All of it seems to stem from some bizarre fear that a "feminist agenda" is taking over gaming (not happening), or that their tastes are not being catered to (which they overwhelmingly are). Great effort is made to generally conceal the fact that basically they are just pissed off by hearing any alternative opinions about gaming.

When I look at your posts I see someone posting about Anita Sarkeesian's largely impact-less videos with the same passion that people post about Israel vs. Palestine. You don't think that's kind of weird?

If the industry I "slammed" gave me an award...well...

Yeah, either the industry is masochistic, or they're open to improving the industry in places they were previously blind to. (Probably a mix of both.)
You're right. "The industry" is not the problem, and everyone in the industry knows it. They're growing up. The problem is the fans, a very loud and hysterical subset of them who read any sort of change or growth as an implicit criticism of them and their tastes, which it is not.
 
Asking for less of something in the media is asking for censorship. That's pretty straight forward.

There's two routes to go, if you're looking to control it, really.

1.) Get people to buy/watch less of it.
2.) Limit how much of it is made.

#2 is censorship, and #1 isn't going to happen any time soon with the way games like Anita's Critques sell. They sell very well. You used the word "representation", and I'm not sure what you mean by that; are you asking for less representation of sexist stereotypes in the media? That would be attempting to control the media, which is what people are equating to censorship. The only natural way to make that happen, is to have a society/community that doesn't like those things. And right now, our society does. Male AND female.

I think it's pretty clear that "representation" in this context means that people are asking for more representation of women as people. Representation as in, people want to see more of characters and scenarios that they feel represent them, it's not a difficult concept. You are literally making the argument that asking for "less of" something is asking for censorship, which is completely absurd. Nobody is advocating legal or forceful restriction of the type of content that is made, merely asking that people put more thought into either the type of material they create or the type of material they consume. This is not called censorship it's called criticism. You know, the thing you are doing to these videos.

If you're asking for people to like/watch/use said content less, you're going to have to accept the very real possibility that they, as a general public, will say no, and continue to like/watch/use said content, and that it's their right to do so, and game developers / movie directors / screenwriters right to make content that will be bought by them. A lot of the attitude here is "we demand change!", and that's not how social opinion works. Social opinion is slow and gradual. "We demand change!" is how law works, and the only way fast change can be applied to this situation is censorship.

How do you think changes in social opinion actually take hold, through people not talking about them?
 
Fine, here's something thought provoking for you to chew on.

Why do you care so much?

Recently there seems to have been a HUGE uptick in this nonsense. Anytime anything even tangentially related to a feminist perspective on games shows up the comments absolutely EXPLODE. They explode with people coming up with all kinds of bizarre justifications for the sheer level of passion they have about largely inconsequential "news" related to that topic. See the Zoe Quinn catastrophe for a dramatic example of this.

All of it seems to stem from some bizarre fear that a "feminist agenda" is taking over gaming (not happening), or that their tastes are not being catered to (which they overwhelmingly are). Great effort is made to generally conceal the fact that basically they are just pissed off by hearing any alternative opinions about gaming.

When I look at your posts I see someone posting about Anita Sarkeesian's largely impact-less videos with the same passion that people post about Israel vs. Palestine. You don't think that's kind of weird?


You're right. "The industry" is not the problem, and everyone in the industry knows it. They're growing up. The problem is the fans, a very loud and hysterical subset of them.

I think it's hilarious that you think the people in favor of these games are a subset.

You should go look at sales data for these games that are supposedly sexist filth. Radical Feminism is the vocal minority.

And the rebuke to radical feminism, the explosion of comments against modern feminism and it's harshly critical opinions, is directly related to the growth of modern feminism and volatility of it's claims. When you have large communities of openly, self-proclaimed misandrists attempting to speak on behalf of women's rights and social agendas for all, people will fight fire with fire.

And I really don't think you want to get started on Zoe.
 
Didn't get to watch this yesterday as I was too busy filling my veins with smash bros hype.


Some of the stuff in this video was graphic and gross.
 
OK, we all know that Witcher 1 has problems when it comes to women - sex cards - but even that game has some really strong women characters and Witcher 2 is one of the best examples when it comes to show great female characters in videogames.. and in this video she uses some strange things to prove her point - like when you can (must) help some women, which need help - ehmm, like you don't need many times to help helpless men..

And in many of those scenes she uses from games i only feel sad about those women - is that a bad thing? Like the scenes from Dishonored, those are really sad scenes about those girls.. some scenes are to much even for me - like that missions from GTA IV where you need to capture that woman, the scene from Kane & Lynch or God of War III.. but yes, the video-game industry has a problem with the depiction of women.. but please be objective when you're trying to prove your point (view).. i would love to see a video where she talks about games (or scenes from games) which show women the way she likes and want more of that in the industry
Although the Witcher games might do a thing or two relatively ok when it comes to portraying strong women I wouldn't use that franchise ever as an example of positive females.
 
I think it's hilarious that you think the people in favor of these games are a subset.

You should go look at sales data for these games that are supposedly sexist filth. Radical Feminism is the vocal minority.
That's not what I said. I said that a small portion of the fans of said games (many of which I do not agree with Sarkeesian's criticisms of, though I respect her right to critique them) are the ones making all the noise. I didn't say anything about sales numbers or who buys what, I was merely saying that it's a relatively small portion of the gaming public who are AT ALL ENGAGED in this so-called "debate." Most people just play the games they like and don't care what someone writes about them on their blog.

And the rebuke to radical feminism, the explosion of comments against modern feminism and it's harshly critical opinions, is directly related to the growth of modern feminism and volatility of it's claims. When you have large communities of openly, self-proclaimed misandrists attempting to speak on behalf of women's rights and social agendas for all, people will fight fire with fight.

And I really don't think you want to get started on Zoe.
So really, you're just pissed off about modern tumblr-style feminism, even though it has almost no actual impact on the gaming industry. Is that what you're getting at?
 
If I was making a pitch for a game negatively portraying women, I wouldn't fill my video with examples of men being assholes to women.

Because at worst, that makes men assholes and women weak, everyone loses and there's no conspiracy against the female gender. I'd use examples that actually portrayed a world where men were decent people and women were not, to make my point.

But hey, that's just me. Maybe those examples are hard to find.
 
I think it's hilarious that you think the people in favor of these games are a subset.

You should go look at sales data for these games that are supposedly sexist filth. Radical Feminism is the vocal minority.

And the rebuke to radical feminism, the explosion of comments against modern feminism and it's harshly critical opinions, is directly related to the growth of modern feminism and volatility of it's claims. When you have large communities of openly, self-proclaimed misandrists attempting to speak on behalf of women's rights and social agendas for all, people will fight fire with fire.

And I really don't think you want to get started on Zoe.

Why not argue against the bad components of the movement instead of the whole thing? There are genuine reasons to actively listen and sort between what is acceptable and what isn't without condemning the whole movement.
 
Just finished it. Is she attempting to say that Dishonored is sexist because when you point the Heart at the girls at the brothel you hear a bit of their life story and it's a bit sad and tragic ? Interesting point, considering if you point the Heart at just about everyone in the whole game it tells you some tragic detail of that NPC's life very frequently. That's what the Heart DOES, as it itself is a representation of the protagonist's tragic event that happened at the beginning of the game. Also, point of note, the zoom lens is for aim refinement and eavesdropping conversations, not zooming in on women. Doing that you could take out a rifle with a scope in the last of us and say the entire game is sexist and promotes pedophilia because you chose to zoom in on Ellie while she picked up a brick.

She makes some fair points with some of those examples, but there is also some very choice picks of unlikely player controlled actions and misunderstood theme interpretations that lend some of the things she says to criticism.

The way she shows many of these examples is indeed quite manipulative. The Dishonored one is probably the most egregious case. That mechanic (the heart telling you snippet of stories about the person you point it at) was actually one of the things I liked the most in that game. The stories were sad and interesting (which is hard to write when you have just a couple of line - kudos to the writers and the actress) and gave so much texture and humanity to the world.
The use of the zoom to imply voyerism is also a really cheap shot. It is misleading and shows lack of understanding of the game.
 
That's not what I said. I said that a small portion of the fans of said games (many of which I do not agree with Sarkeesian's criticisms of, though I respect her right to critique them) are the ones making all the noise. I didn't say anything about sales numbers or who buys what, I was merely saying that it's a relatively small portion of the gaming public who are AT ALL ENGAGED in this so-called "debate." Most people just play the games they like and don't care what someone writes about them on their blog.


So really, you're just pissed of about modern tumblr-style feminism, even though it has almost no actual impact on the gaming industry. Is that what you're getting at?

I'm not pissed at anything. But I do recognize when someone like Anita is taking media full of negative female AND male stereotypes, designed to evoke emotion, and trying to paint it as wrong for society. People have been saying "___ is brainwashing our youth!" since rock and roll, and eons prior. It always boils down to heavy handed attempts to change media instead of changing minds, and it's always useless, faulty rhetoric. This Anita video included.

The anita video doesn't have much to do with rad-fem, but you asked why there's always an explosion of comments on feminist issues in the past few years or so. Rad/Modern Feminism is the reason.
 
I think it's hilarious that you think the people in favor of these games are a subset.

You should go look at sales data for these games that are supposedly sexist filth. Radical Feminism is the vocal minority.
In none of her videos does Anita imply that these games are sexist filth.
 
Why not argue against the bad components of the movement instead of the whole thing? There are genuine reasons to actively listen and sort between what is acceptable and what isn't without condemning the whole movement.

This. The risk is not that "evil radical feminists" or "raging MRA mysoginists" will take over the magic kingdom of videogames and destroy it. The risk (well, reality, really) is that it's hard to have nuanced conversations without people immeditaly calling other people SJW or women-hater.
 
Globalization of beauty is pretty screwed up.

Is there a Tyra Banks equivalent for Asians telling them there ethnicity is beautiful? The one study that disturbs me is when black girls were given a white, blonde doll and a black doll and felt the need to damn the black doll in favor of the white one. They expressed pretty clear signs of hatred for something that was suppose to represent them.

It's sad because I mirrored that sentiment as a kid too. It's certainly a thing...But it's not like you can fix it unless you make sure your kid never watches TV or a movie or a video game...or takes in any form of media depicting globalized feminine beauty. :P

I'm a bit hyper aware of sexism and racism...and I've studied the effects of the media as my concentration in school. So...it's not like I'd actively deny these things for any reason. You have no idea what kind of brain-washing powers I learned from advertising. >:)


Like mate, I heard this story about a black guy who got a complex about the size of his dick. He had a normal sized dick but he was conditioned to only date white girls (I don't really understand what this means as I am white myself, but I just have to take his word for it!) and basically all of them were expecting him to have this 10-12 inch dick, so it always became awkward. Isn't it amazing how people can develop complexes for *positive* stereotypes about them? Man, when I heard that story. I had never thought about that, but that must be grueling. To have that attached to the color of your skin, like you are some "exotic" piece of meat that there is something wrong with if you don't follow the jokes. Big Black Dick jokes are everywhere in our culture (like don't-drop-the-soap-prison-male-rape) so I can see why he would develop a complex.

There was this other show I watched, a documentary about a 10 year old black girl in the inner city who was killing herself with bleach because she wanted to be white. It was horrifying to watch. The girl hated who she was, and because she was overweight it was even harder for her family to address. She bleached her freaking skin over years. She had the early stages of skin cancer, and you just saw this little girl who - was talking about that even Beyonce was too black for who she wanted to be! Beyonce and starts like her, have had so much done to her hair, look that diminishes the african cultural traits that is a part of who she is (they were talking about the Black is Beautiful Movement, and how they are trying to make african hairtypes seem more beautiful in the media.)

Stereotypes are crazy when we are subject to them. And that goes from everything from women getting labia cosmetic surgeries because of porn indoctrination, to teen and young men killing themselves with anabolic steroids due to influences in the media, hollywood and video games. All this media shit is crazy. I am not surprised there is so much anxiety and fear and self-loathing. "Loving yourself?? pffffffffftttttt" we say to ourselves, as we try to fit in!
 
And the rebuke to radical feminism, the explosion of comments against modern feminism and it's harshly critical opinions, is directly related to the growth of modern feminism and volatility of it's claims. When you have large communities of openly, self-proclaimed misandrists attempting to speak on behalf of women's rights and social agendas for all, people will fight fire with fire.

And I really don't think you want to get started on Zoe.

Yeaahhhhh, not so much. There's always been a highly vocal opposition to feminism, even in its very earliest stages. At every stage in the history of the movement there's been a backlash to claim that "feminism has gone too far," "modern feminism doesn't represent real women," "feminists hate men," etc etc. See, for instance, the anti-suffragist propaganda of the early 20th century:

anti_clip_image002_0001.jpg


At any rate though, this is basically just a derailment and an irrelevant distraction from the points that Anita Sarkeesian is actually making.
 
Uh, no, you didn't use my words about wishing things hadn't been made, because I never said I wished things hadn't been made. Those were your words.

Don't misrepresent the argument I gave you. I didn't say you wished things hadn't been made. That would be nonsense in the context of this entire conversation.

This is what I quoted from on you:

Yes, wishing they didn't make that thing you call garbage is the definition of advocating censorship.

My response to was that if you have a problem with people wishing something hadn't been made, because you think it advocates censorship, then you must have a huge problem with a lot of ordinary complaint posts on GAF.


I also never said Anita's videos would lead to social and legal action.
In fact, I specifically said pretty much nobody cares about her, and those that do are outbalanced by some pretty loud negative press and attention that neutralizes just about any silly rhetoric she has to spew. I said that people recognize how public sentiment can turn into legal and social action, and that is why they respond harshly to nonsense like Anita.

Yes you did.

Once again, this is the post I quoted you:

Public perception is the cauldron that legal and social action is made in.

People are defensive about her videos, because they feel half of them are full of **** and skewing public perception too far away from the truth, which would result in undue or overreaching legal/social action.



You should really stop trying to put words in my mouth, and actually learn to read and digest comments before you attempt to quote and respond to them.


How about you get your ideas straight, or learn how to write. Arguing against your own inconsistencies is tiresome.
 
I'm not pissed at anything. But I do recognize when someone like Anita is taking media full of negative female AND male stereotypes, designed to evoke emotion, and trying to paint it as wrong for society. People have been saying "___ is brainwashing our youth!" since rock and roll, and eons prior. It always boils down to heavy handed attempts to change media instead of changing minds, and it's always useless, faulty rhetoric. This Anita video included.

The anita video doesn't have much to do with rad-fem, but you asked why there's always an explosion of comments on feminist issues in the past few years or so. Rad/Modern Feminism is the reason.

It's really not the same. People who say that TV/Movies/Rock and Roll/Comics are brainwashing the youth wants these to be completely gone. They don't want people to consume any of these media because they think it's completely bad. Anita is saying (sometimes I agree with her examples and sometimes I don't) that games rely too much on certain tropes to do certain things in game and maybe it is time to consider writing games in more diverse ways especially when it comes to the treatment and writing of women. She's not saying that Games brainwash people as a whole, she's saying that we have ample room for improvement when it comes to specific aspects of gaming. She's not attacking the genre per se, just components of it. Using the poptart analogy, there are people who argue, with evidence that much of our junkfood are unhealthy and that companies need to stop putting tons of fats, sugar and salt into them. Like Anita, they're not asking for a ban on junkfood but to make them better for consumption.
 
If I was making a pitch for a game negatively portraying women, I wouldn't fill my video with examples of men being assholes to women.

Because at worst, that makes men assholes and women weak, everyone loses and there's no conspiracy against the female gender. I'd use examples that actually portrayed a world where men were decent people and women were not, to make my point.

But hey, that's just me. Maybe those examples are hard to find.

I feel similarly. Fried Green Tomatoes, a feminist book I read in school, is filled with depictions of men being horrible to women. This is sadly what often happens in life, and is not sexist (obviously, since the book is a famous feminist work). The main thing you can fault games for is trying to portray grave situations in two seconds, which results in hollow storytelling. So yes, women's stories are hollow in the background. And so are the men's.

Anyways, that aside, I think Anita's videos are improving (more individual examples are legit), although I still find they're produced with tunnel vision as wholes. For example, is the RDR railroad thing a sexist objectification of women, or is it just high fiving the player for doing an incredibly stereotypical western thing? Anita, as with that example, often slips into a mentality that sexism exists in a utopian vacuum.
 
I don't think the beginning is very on point. The naked murdered women are not there to titillate the men I don't think, but meant rather as an artistic juxtaposition between the horribleness of murder with the beauty of the female form. You can deplore that women are considered the fairer sex, but that's something else.

However, I'm very glad that she points out the casual vileness in the background of many AAA games--not just against women but there's that certainly, just to set a 'gritty atmosphere' and without a strong narrative reason (if anything only to make the player less moral and justify their own vileness). That wall of games behind her should work as a wall of shame and I hope the developers notice it.
 
If I was making a pitch for a game negatively portraying women, I wouldn't fill my video with examples of men being assholes to women.

Because at worst, that makes men assholes and women weak, everyone loses and there's no conspiracy against the female gender. I'd use examples that actually portrayed a world where men were decent people and women were not, to make my point.

But hey, that's just me. Maybe those examples are hard to find.

So the main issue you seem to have is that you completely missed the actual point of the video. The whole point of this video is to show consistent and frequent examples of sexually tinged violence against women being used as a cheap and shallow way to get the male character (and by proxy, player) emotionally invested and/or being used as filler for world building or establishing a tone. She's not looking for blatant examples of red pill fanfiction because the argument isn't that developers hate women and want to make them look bad, the argument is that the excessive usage of these tropes both marginalises and minimises the impact that this kind of violence has in real life as well as reduces the opportunity for meaningful characterisation and representation of women in the medium.
 
I feel similarly. Fried Green Tomatoes, a feminist book I read in school, is filled with depictions of men being horrible to women. This is sadly what often happens in life, and is not sexist (obviously, since the book is a famous feminist work). The main thing you can fault games for is trying to portray grave situations in two seconds, which results in hollow storytelling. So yes, women's stories are hollow in the background. And so are the men's.

Anyways, that aside, I think Anita's videos are improving (more individual examples are legit), although I still find they're produced with tunnel vision as wholes. For example, is the RDR railroad thing a sexist objectification of women, or is it just high fiving the player for doing an incredibly stereotypical western thing?

Well I mean to be fair, some of the most important feminists of all time were about the idea that you could kill 90% of all men for a better world. Of course that doesn't define feminism as a whole (but what do I know?) I just think it rings true about what they teach in Sociology and Anthropology - That all cultural revolutions start in the extreme. Almost unprescedented, extremist behavior is the only thing that can topple the status quo. It's been like that with a lot of things. But not all.


I think it's a pendulum, and right now we are living in a world were the pendulum is swinging too far, but that's only because the last 10,000 years since dawn of agriculture (in most, not all, but most socities) had women treated as more scum. Men have been treated as scum as well, but that was depending on their status of power.

I think the pendulum will swing the other way again and social issues will focus on young male teens suicide rates. the western world is going to have to deal with the consequences of the 5-to-1 drop rate across all institutions, with boys losing the battle, getting ritalin'ed up because they are so much worse off, and at being obedient in our current school system.

But that's how these things work, and I think its just important to recognize that. So Anita sees things more from her own genders point of view? I think thats a true statement, and I think a lot of the people who are angry at Anita just wants to her address that. The other camp is saying that, that is not neccesary, as the subject is about womens issues, so they shouldnt address men. But I think most of us are really on the same ballpark here. I just dont think people will understand one another more if you tell them to "stop taking it personal" or stuff like that. If people take something personal or feel that their race/gender/group they identify with is left out, they also have a right to say that, and also without being ridiculed. Because that too is becoming a shitty stereotype.


TL;DR - We are all closer to an agreement than we think we are. We are just discussing nuances about inclusion and exclusions that makes people more defense and some more aggressive, on both sides of the coin.

At least that is how I see it:3
 
References Watch Dogs.

Complains that half the time, the victims in interferences are Female, and the other half, they're male, but not sexualized like the females were. Stabbed and choked, sure, but not called a whore first, unacceptable disparity.

Makes no mention of the fact that the scumbag you have to stop from being a scumbag is pretty much always a guy, because only men can be scumbags in video games.

It's polemic to put it nicely, which is why is receives such a checkered response instead of being universally praised as insightful.
I think it's actually always a guy. I never encountered a female enemy in the entire game.
 
It's really not the same. People who say that TV/Movies/Rock and Roll/Comics are brainwashing the youth wants these to be completely gone. They don't want people to consume any of these media because they think it's completely bad. Anita is saying (sometimes I agree with her examples and sometimes I don't) that games rely too much on certain tropes to do certain things in game and maybe it is time to consider writing games in more diverse ways especially when it comes to the treatment and writing of women. She's not saying that Games brainwash people as a whole, she's saying that we have ample room for improvement when it comes to specific aspects of gaming. She's not attacking the genre per se, just components of it. Using the poptart analogy, there are people who argue, with evidence that much of our junkfood are unhealthy and that companies need to stop putting tons of fats, sugar and salt into them. Like Anita, they're not asking for a ban on junkfood but to make them better for consumption.

Incorrect.

People weren't against Music. They were against Rock and Roll. Many other forms of music existed at the time, that were considered wholesome and acceptable. This is 100% analogous to people not being against gaming, just being against the kind of gaming they don't like.

People also do advocate for bans on junk food. Large size soft drinks were banned in NYC, for example.

In both cases, people feel a certain aspect of X is unhealthy(sometimes correct, such as junk food, and sometimes incorrect, such as rock and roll), and attempt to stop it in every way possible up to and including legislation. If you want to eat healthy, wonderful. Thanks to this lovely engine we have called capitalism, if there is a need you wish was filled, somebody will make a buck trying to fill it. Trying to reach that outcome by condemning the product, as opposed to fostering an alternative, is never going to work.

So yes, much like protecting the rights of those that choose to eat junk food and vocally opposing people stepping too far into personal freedoms, I feel it's important to vocally oppose people stepping too far into the creative freedoms and marketable expectations of games.

Especially when represented with such one-sided poor examples, like Anita is known for(case in point: complaining about every negative female stereotype in the games she highlights as if they are a crisis, while ignoring all the negative male stereotypes).

So the main issue you seem to have is that you completely missed the actual point of the video. The whole point of this video is to show consistent and frequent examples of sexually tinged violence against women being used as a cheap and shallow way to get the male character (and by proxy, player) emotionally invested and/or being used as filler for world building or establishing a tone. She's not looking for blatant examples of red pill fanfiction because the argument isn't that developers hate women and want to make them look bad, the argument is that the excessive usage of these tropes both marginalises and minimises the impact that this kind of violence has in real life as well as reduces the opportunity for meaningful characterisation and representation of women in the medium.

Also entirely incorrect. I watched the whole video, and understood entirely what she was falsely attempting to dictate.

Virtually every example of negative stereotyping and marginalizing of women is matched, even in her own clips, of negative stereotyping and expendability of men.

I replayed Last of Us just a couple weeks ago. Know how many men I had to kill in that, because they were both expendable and evil? Probably about a billion. Know how many women? Zero, unless you count zambies, and then maybe it was about 10 or so. But zambies can't really be evil, they're just zambying, which is probably why it was acceptable to throw in a sprinkling of girls that were surely wonderful people before they ended up zambies.

Is there an outcry about this kind of violence in videogames, and the lessons that it teaches about male life being utterly expendable while female life would be a tragic, emotion-inducing loss? Not at all.

Her cherry-picked anecdotal examples are pointless, in that she very nearly outweighs them with charicatures of disposable, asshole men in her own clips, without even being required to do your own research for female characters with actual development; all of this not even including the fact that the massive majority of these games are marketed and made for a predominantly-male demographic, which means equal gender representation is not to be expected in the first place.

And arguing that marginalizing women in video games marginalizes them in life is the same argument that violent games create killers, and rock music fosters satanism. Media does not kill people and abuse women, people do, and the route to educating people is not by censoring, or attempting to control, the media that is available to them. Last I checked, people aren't running around shooting up disposable men and hookers in countries that actually have decent gun laws(australia, japan, etc). These places still have violent, sexist media options.
 
I think it's a pendulum, and right now we are living in a world were the pendulum is swinging too far, but that's only because the last 10,000 years since dawn of agriculture (in most, not all, but most socities) had women treated as more scum. Men have been treated as scum as well, but that was depending on their status of power.

Maybe we derail, but I hate when people say things like that. Saying "women were treated like scum" is simplistic and undermines women from the past painting them as meek victims. There is a difference between imbalance of power or strict society roles and being treated like scum. I come from southern Italy, and in the place where I grew up before mid-20th century most women were the ones with economic power (they handled the economy cause men couldn't be trusted not to spend salary on drinking) and with a lot of power on individuals (cause good luck getting accepted in your spouse's family if her/his mom didn't like you or buying a property if you wife didn't want you to). Also, men who beat their wives were traditionally considered pieces of shit and disrespecting a woman in any way was very, very stigmatized.
Of course that society was also deeply unequal and sexist (and classist in an even more brutal way), and life for women was really hard. But the narrative according to which women were glorified slaves until the day they could vote and own real estate is false and shallow. Grandma rottame was nobody's servant.
 
The way she shows many of these examples is indeed quite manipulative. The Dishonored one is probably the most egregious case. That mechanic (the heart telling you snippet of stories about the person you point it at) was actually one of the things I liked the most in that game. The stories were sad and interesting (which is hard to write when you have just a couple of line - kudos to the writers and the actress) and gave so much texture and humanity to the world.
The use of the zoom to imply voyerism is also a really cheap shot. It is misleading and shows lack of understanding of the game.

I would like to see a response from the Dishonored developers.
 
I replayed Last of Us just a couple weeks ago. Know how many men I had to kill in that, because they were both expendable and evil? Probably about a billion. Know how many women? Zero, unless you count zambies, and then maybe it was about 10 or so. But zambies can't really be evil, they're just zambying, which is probably why it was acceptable to throw in a sprinkling of girls that were surely wonderful people before they ended up zambies.

Is there an outcry about this kind of violence in videogames, and the lessons that it teaches about male life being utterly expendable while female life would be a tragic, emotion-inducing loss? Not at all.

Her cherry-picked anecdotal examples are pointless, in that she very nearly outweighs them with charicatures of disposable, asshole men in her own clips, without even being required to do your own research for female characters with actual development; all of this not even including the fact that the massive majority of these games are marketed and made for a predominantly-male demographic, which means equal gender representation is not to be expected in the first place.

And arguing that marginalizing women in video games marginalizes them in life is the same argument that violent games create killers, and rock music fosters satanism. Media does not kill people and abuse women, people do, and the route to educating people is not by censoring, or attempting to control, the media that is available to them. Last I checked, people aren't running around shooting up disposable men and hookers in countries that actually have decent gun laws(australia, japan, etc). These places still have violent, sexist media options.

I mean. You're the one playing games with tons of male disposablity.

Studies show that female empathy makes female gamers less inclined to want to kill men. Monsters? Cool. Aliens? Okay. Zombies? Heck yeah! Men...no thanks! I certainly don't think killing virtual men is morally justifiable regardless of how many virtual prostitutes they kill. :)

hartmann-genres.jpg


I'm not endorsing it with my money. You only seem to be upset about it because Anita brings up sexualized violence...

I wonder how people would respond to sexualized male violence...
 
I mean. You're the one playing games with tons of male disposablity.

Studies show that female empathy makes female gamers less inclined to want to kill men. Monsters? Cool. Aliens? Okay. Zombies? Heck yeah! Men...no thanks! I certainly don't think killing virtual men is morally justifiable regardless of how many virtual prostitutes they kill. :)

hartmann-genres.jpg


I'm not endorsing it with my money. You only seem to be upset about it because Anita brings up sexualized violence...

I wonder how people would respond to sexualized male violence...

I play a wide variety of games. Saying "playing games with tons of male disposability" is a little silly, though, because essentially any game with shades of violence is going to be violent towards men first, second, third, fourth, and sixth, with maybe a dose of violence against women sprinkled in there around the fifth slot. Playing modern games while avoiding male disposability would be virtually impossible.

Luckily, I don't care about any kind of prejudice in video games. For the same reason I don't care about it in Game of Thrones, or the latest Lady Gaga album. It's media. It's a story. If you can't handle a 3rd-party created story and have it be separate from your personality, I feel that's your business and something you should really work on. Perhaps it would be different with impressionable youth, but that's what A.), Parenting is for, and B.), the ESRB is for.

I point out that the games Anita samples are stuffed full of detrimental male stereotypes, to point out the hypocrisy of her complaints. If she honestly believes that these examples of female stereotypes are detrimental to society, then she must also believe these games are teaching people that men are categorically evil and worthless. People are expected to feel nothing, when Enemy Henchman number seventy eight grabs his bullet wound and falls down.

But she doesn't. She focuses solely on what she wants to rant about while ignoring issues directly related to and shot in the very same clips, which is why so many don't take her seriously and/or critique her videos as bunk.
 
I play a wide variety of games. Saying "playing games with tons of male disposability" is a little silly, though, because essentially any game with shades of violence is going to be violent towards men first, second, third, fourth, and sixth, with maybe a dose of violence against women sprinkled in there around the fifth slot. Playing modern games while avoiding male disposability would be virtually impossible.

Luckily, I don't care about any kind of prejudice in video games. For the same reason I don't care about it in Game of Thrones, or the latest Lady Gaga album. It's media. It's a story. If you can't handle a 3rd-party created story and have it be separate from your personality, I feel that's your business and something you should really work on.

I point out that the games Anita samples are stuffed full of detrimental male stereotypes, to point out the hypocrisy of her complaints. If she honestly believes that these examples of female stereotypes are detrimental to society, then she must also believe these games are teaching people that men are categorically evil and worthless. People are expected to feel nothing, when Enemy Henchman number seventy eight grabs his bullet wound and falls down.

But she doesn't. She focuses solely on what she wants to rant about while ignoring issues directly related to and shot in the very same clips, which is why so many don't take her seriously and/or critique her videos as bunk.

My favorite game is Ocarina of Time. And the only living human enemies that you fight and/or kill besides Ganondorf are all female. Link doesn't even kill Ganondorf anyways...and that's mostly because he is human. Link doesn't kill a single man throughout the entirety of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. But he killed like...at least two to eight women. Zelda even stresses about how Ganondorf isn't really at fault.

Just sayin' :V

I point out that the games Anita samples are stuffed full of detrimental male stereotypes, to point out the hypocrisy of her complaints. If she honestly believes that these examples of female stereotypes are detrimental to society, then she must also believe these games are teaching people that men are categorically evil and worthless. People are expected to feel nothing, when Enemy Henchman number seventy eight grabs his bullet wound and falls down.

They do teach you to stay in competition with men and gain dominance over them. I've played a lot of games. And I've consistently avoided games where you kill lots of men. Assassin's Creed being the only exception because I enjoyed the world it was in, but even that became pretty gross to me. It's all very excessive and feels "eech."

And Anita's talking about victimhood and sexualization. She wants there to be female enemies. But she doesn't want them to dress in lingerie on the battlefield. You couldn't possibly be misinterpreting her message any worse. :C
 
I enjoy watching Sarkeesian's videos and find them to be very an insightful and interesting observation on the big picture, rather than choosing to get hung up on semantics.

Yeah; I made the mistake of watching a couple of video responses to her videos, and it's basically guys arguing semantics and ignoring the overall point of her videos. Most people bitch and moan about there being no comments or voting system (I'm sure the amount of negative backlash she gets is enormously disproportionate), while ignoring that most of the points she makes are completely fair and the industry is inherently sexist.
 
But most of all...I cringe every time 'patriarchy' is brought into the discussion. These scenes, as crude or as base as they appear, don't exist to perpetuate a harsh view of women for the sole purpose of imbibing male players/viewers with a dim view of the female gender. They can certainly be ham-fisted and crass, but there's no connection in that argument beyond mere interpretation..and it's one I don't find particularly convincing.

Pretty much my main issue with these videos. Tropes exist, first and foremost, because bad writting exist. Patriarchy as an all-encompasing explanation for every single cultural difference between man and women and every travail that women ever faced is an intellectually lazy as fuck posture. Or to sum it more concisely: "don't atribute malice to what can be easily explaind by stupidity". Or as the case of character tropes, lack of talent / laziness at writting.
 
Pretty much my main issue with these videos. Tropes exist, first and foremost, because bad writting exist. Patriarchy as an all-encompasing explanation for every single cultural difference between man and women and every travail that women ever faced is an intellectually lazy as fuck posture. Or to sum it more concisely: "don't atribute malice to what can be easily explaind by stupidity". Or as the case of character tropes, lack of talent / laziness.

You can't be for real.
 
Holy shit a lot of those scenes in that video are disgusting. I guess I'm a little shocked at the level of violence, since I have not really played any of those games listed.
 
Pretty much my main issue with these videos. Tropes exist, first and foremost, because bad writting exist. Patriarchy as an all-encompasing explanation for every single cultural difference between man and women and every travail that women ever faced is an intellectually lazy as fuck posture. Or to sum it more concisely: "don't atribute malice to what can be easily explaind by stupidity". Or as the case of character tropes, lack of talent / laziness at writting.
Patriarchy isn't an inherently malicious idea. Your comment about stupidity and apathy is entirely coherent with it
 
I disagree with your ideas, I guess.

So you are actually suggesting that it is just laziness and not playing dumb on purpose? Hoped for the latter.
Dude, yes it is laziness. It would be "laziness" to display black people as second class, to make antisemitic caricatures, to turn women into objects. For you, the none affected, that is just "laziness". For those affected, it is opression.
 
Pretty much my main issue with these videos. Tropes exist, first and foremost, because bad writting exist. Patriarchy as an all-encompasing explanation for every single cultural difference between man and women and every travail that women ever faced is an intellectually lazy as fuck posture. Or to sum it more concisely: "don't atribute malice to what can be easily explaind by stupidity". Or as the case of character tropes, lack of talent / laziness at writting.

I'm not sure why intent would be relevant in any kind of critique of art/entertainment/whatever? It seems pretty useless in a discussion of the works themselves and the effects they can have on their audience. Then again, I'm also not sure malicious intent is necessarily a vital component of patriarchy (normally defined as a set of (harmful) cultural expectations/assumptions) either.
 
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