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[Gestault]

As an addendum to my previous post:

The level of criticism in the Background Decoration videos bothers me, with the way the specifics of the games being called out don't seem important to that criticism.

I'll use a parallel in writing: The opium dens (and "women of the night") in "The Picture of Dorian Gray" were used to the exact ends she uses: inessential window dressing to convey how bad an area of a city was. The women in those scenes of the book were used to show the extent of Gray's moral depravity. Objectified to convey a male lead's moral lapses. Sarkeesian's standards for inclusion would have her highlighting those scenes and characters in that work. It's also worth pointing out that it was part of a gradual, broader set of symbols and events to show the character's personal degradation, with very little focus on women.

I would fundamentally disagree with this criticism in that work, just as I think merely highlighting the existence of certain symbols being used in games without attention to their context or intent creates a gap in the success of a criticism. Let alone in situations where Sarkeesian arguably mischaracterizes the surrounding treatment and behaviors of other characters in relation to women. I think the specifics need to matter. She's chosen to pose her criticism as being of the wider medium of videogames. So her criticism isn't postured as "these are the problems in these games, for these reasons." It's posed as broader than that. Which can be true of systemic issues, but when that problem is identified as being across the entire society, and creative works are the result of that society, the conversation is simply no longer about videogames, if substantiating the particulars beyond superficial inclusion in any one game isn't the point.

If the counterpoint of "you've mischaracterized this example" applies to more than a few of your inclusions, that's a serious problem in any academic work. If people who think the work is important are accepting of that level of oversight, then it shows the reactions to that criticisms are about a foregone premise, rather than the particular analysis, as presented.

 

[Curufinwe]

the brothel and its occupants are inessential window dressing that only exist to show how shitty the city and its leaders are

Except it doesn't show that at all. The brothel is one of the least awful places in the entire game.

Brothels existing in a city does not necessarily mean that the city is shitty or that its leaders are. Not in the real world, and not in games.

 

[Red Chocobo]

You are suggesting the possibility in the first place. Don't use the "Some people say" excuse to throw out insinuations you know are silly.

Not suggesting. Already seen it.

 

[Sober]

The funny thing is that the brother wasn;t anything like that. Women there appeared to be quite content. Sure, some were tricked into the business, but quick stroll through Dunwall made it pretty clear they were one of the luckiest people in the city. Others had it far far worse unless they were the artistocracy. Unless we consider that every woman who works as prostitute is a helpless victim,which isn't really true. So the brother wasn;t really used as a place to show how bad the world is or to show how evil the people are. The woman who ran it wasn't really evil and the twins you had to kill there were monsters for completely different reasons, that had nothing to do with them using the services of this particular establishment

Here's the thing though, why not at the very least explore that explicitly rather than implicitly mention it? Because the Heart lines are essentially optional content.

As a what if (the game is fine on its own, it's not terrible because Anita hates it or anything, and simply if the dev team had infinite resources and time, etc.):
what if by some narrative conceit the workers knew you were trying to kill Lady Boyle, and she was in the brothel that day instead of those twins, and one of the women who represented some of the workers in the brothel appealed to Corvo to not kill her under orders and offered her (and fellow prostitutes') world view on why. And say, perhaps you are pushed regardless, and she and the other prostitutes started trying to actively hinder your mission instead. Again, that is just a simple quick thought at a possible what if, but I think that would help add more texture to the game world than a simple line of world building that seems to casually throw away any sense of agency for the characters (playable or not) in this certain part in the world.

She was more critiquing the mechanics of both Dishonored and Hitman when it's clear she didn't actually understand them. If she just wants to say "there's a brothel in this game, it's bad", that might be different.

She wasn't really critiquing Blood Money as much, but the marketing is fair game and I thought it was fair. But if you want to critique the game itself, many of the missions that even feature women (because most of them are populated by men so the disguise mechanic can be used meaningfully by the PC), generally feature them in set dressing and sexualized states, like those dancers in that dark club, or that rich guy's Christmas parties where a lot of them are just in bikinis. I can't even seem to remember if the River Boat or Missisipi funeral missions even included women in them.

Also, Steve Gaynor (Bioshock 2, Gone Home):
https://twitter.com/fullbright/with_replies

It's good that Gaynor recognized it but I really never felt like the wife got fridged at all in Minerva's Den. Unless we are taking the trope of fridging women so far that the narrative conceit of a man expressing his grief at the loss of a female loved one (even if did not occur in the text itself) as fridging. Again, just an opinion, but I can see why it could be seen that way.

 

[Red Chocobo]

Is this the last video?

 

[unbias]

That's the unfortunate byproduct of videogames being seen as a haven for antisocial, hypermasculine behavior. I really do hope more and more women enter our industry. With every passing decade, videogames seem to be held more accountable for the behavior of their fanatics and for the flimsiness of their storylines.

I, too, have some disagreements with Anita's final general conclusion in her latest Feminist Frequency, but on the whole, her ability to point to multiple instances of "women as backdrop" was effectively harrowing. It's a trend that is easy to forget, because the characters are brushed aside as quickly as they are introduced, but as characters being brutalized and mutilated, the story deserves to treat them better. I think Bioshock 2, in particular, is an interesting case, because a handful of the upper level devs used the storytelling devices they learned and mastered in the Shock Series and took it with them to make Gone Home, one of the few videogames that encourages a feminist interpretation.

It's not a byproduct of video games, it's the byproduct of the internet. Many famous people get threatened daily, in the sports would, movie world, music world, political world and ect. While it is horrible that nut jobs want to scare/harass people it is in no way unique to video games.

And while her video's do a good job at point out shit story telling and using incredibly cheap set pieces to give a sense of "Bad guy"(sex is a very typical and cheap way to give the sense of "bad" in stories), I dont think women as backdrop is as common as some in here make it out to be. I mean, the large majority of games dont do this, the majority of games dont even deal with the same type of issues. The problem isnt so much that they exist, but that "gritty" story based games rely on some form of sex to sell their stories most of the time(video games dont do reality well, at all), because frankly video game stories are horribly bad, when done in a realistic light.

I think her video's are good, in the sense they point out shitty story telling, and because of this her reasoning's and conclusions dont need to be correct(that this is a pervasive issue, when there are tons of games that dont do what she is pointing out) and most people pointing out her inconsistencies are right, but even when she is wrong she is still shedding light on shit that doesnt NEED to be in games and does not improve the game.

I think peoples issues with her are being misconstrued and I think most people who are angry with her are not actually angry with her, but with everyone who holds up her as a great speaker on these issues(they just take it out on her). Honestly she isnt a great speaker on the issue, she sort of cherry picks the video's and infers things that are not necessarily inferred and assumes things that dont really need to be assumed, to prove that some video games stories are shit and can be considered offensive. But, she is still highlighting(regardless of the motivations of why those set pieces are there) straight up shitty narratives in games(honestly what some gamers are satisfied with in real world stories is mind boggling to me).

Unfortunately this is how the internet works, though... Any legitimate criticisms(from her or about her) get lost in extremism and you start seeing hate spewing.

 

[APF]

I would fundamentally disagree with this criticism in that work

Normally I wait for someone to actually make an argument before criticising that argument, especially if my main concern is about context.

 

[Eidan]

So I pose a question and get instantly attacked with sarcastic comments from her fans, even though I didn't say anything negative about her at all. Now I see why I shouldn't bother posting in these types of threads. There is no objectivity here.

I think your question was on its face pretty silly. Tell me again how she is not allowing others to critique her work? What are people doing in this thread? In the very YouTube videos you cite? You're exaggerating the importance of the YouTube comments section, which I think is deserving of a little mockery.

 

[Gestault]

Normally I wait for someone to actually make an argument before criticising that argument, especially if my main concern is about context.

I applied the same standard for inclusion, and I did it with a sincere interest in that parallel with what was included in the two Background videos. If you can think of ways I've overlooked or mischaracterized that theoretical, I'll eagerly consider it. If you would have included the rest of the sentence you quoted, I think that would have been even clearer.

 

[Wiktor]

As a what if (the game is fine on its own, it's not terrible because Anita hates it or anything, and simply if the dev team had infinite resources and time, etc.):
what if by some narrative conceit the workers knew you were trying to kill Lady Boyle, and she was in the brothel that day instead of those twins, and one of the women who represented some of the workers in the brothel appealed to Corvo to not kill her under orders and offered her (and fellow prostitutes') world view on why. And say, perhaps you are pushed regardless, and she and the other prostitutes started trying to actively hinder your mission instead. Again, that is just a simple quick thought at a possible what if, but I think that would help add more texture to the game world than a simple line of world building that seems to casually throw away any sense of agency for the characters (playable or not) in this certain part in the world.

.

That's a pretty heavy reworking of whole game's structure and storyline though. Especially since none of other characrers, males included, got this much nonlinearity.

Not saying it wouldn't be cool, but it's not something that should be required to be included. Just because you introduce a woman into a game doesn't mean you necessary have to build the whole narrative around her problems and struggles. She can be just a small episodic character

Plus the problem with what you're suggested is that Lady Boyle's Last Party is to me the very best mission in any game last gen and it works so well in large part because it's self contained and you go in fresh, without any knowledge of her and have to dig for info.

Again, not that it wouldn't be cool to see something like this done, but lack of it isn't a downside or reason to criticize the game.

 

[APF]

I applied the same standard for inclusion

It's not a video game, so...

 

[flyover]

A lot of sexism is lazy. It's habitual and thoughtless...

Yes! This is a key takeaway from the videos. Many of the games (and their creators) aren't sexist by intent; they're sexist because the lazy storytelling shorthand they've used to communicate certain things (like urban edginess) is sexist.

Honestly, by giving these things a little more thought, game creators won't just make less sexist games. They'll also make better, and more varied, games.

 

[Gestault]

It's not a video game, so...

Would it help if I explained why there can be parallels in how criticisms are formulated in different types of creative works? I mean that seriously.

 

[APF]

Would it help if I explained why there can be parallels in how criticisms are formulated in different types of creative works? I mean that seriously.

I think I made my point clear: it would help if you argued against points she actually made, and did not argue against hypothetical scenarios you invent in order to have something to criticize.

 

[Sober]

That's a pretty heavy reworking of whole game's structure and storyline though. Especially since none of other characrers, males included, got this much nonlinearity.

Not saying it wouldn't be cool, but it's not something that should be required to be included. Just because you introduce a woman into a game doesn't mean you necessary have to build the whole narrative around her problems and struggles. She can be just a small episodic character

Plus the problem with what you're suggested is that Lady Boyle's Last Party is to me the very best mission in any game last gen and it works so well in large part because it's self contained and you go in fresh, without any knowledge of her and have to dig for info.

Again, not that it wouldn't be cool to see something like this done, but lack of it isn't a downside or reason to criticize the game.

Of course, you're not wrong either, but again, just a what if. I'm sure at Arkane some variation of that idea probably existed until they realized that would be too much work. But that doesn't excuse the criticism Anita makes either, that it feels like the line simply exists (despite its best intentions at showing more texture to the game world) falling flat. Show, don't tell, if possible.

That is probably why she didn't really bring up DX:HR, as someone mentioned, did have a similar situation with a sidequest I believe.

The main crux though is that Dishonoured was never designed to play like a Deus Ex where you could have a safe(r) hub area to explore versus Dishonoured where the environment existed most of the time as navigation space for the mechanics. So in Dishonoured you rightly don't get to sit down and experience the game world the same way as Deus Ex. Which is a shame, because I felt like it could've worked in some ways.

 

[Wiktor]

But that doesn't excuse the criticism Anita makes either, that it feels like the line simply exists (despite its best intentions at showing more texture to the game world) falling flat. Show, don't tell, if possible.

That is probably why she didn't really bring up DX:HR, as someone mentioned, did have a similar situation with a sidequest I believe.
.

True, but did they actually had a choice? Dishonored world is ridiculously rich, far more than Deus Ex. If they would want to show instead of telling all the stuff you find through heart and journals the game would have to be ten times longer. There was always going to be something you had to cut to make it work as commercial project.

Plus I think limiting women's involvement in main campaign was intentional. With Dishonored as Corvo you've played more or less as a nice person, even if you could degrade to monster status, so it made sense to limit the female victims (and that's all the leads are in Dishonored). Sure, it's a bit sexist to think women shouldn't be murdered as widely and brutally as men, but that's just how people think. Good men in finction try to not beat and kill women, even if they deserve it.


Meanwhile in DLC you've played a clearly evil man (altough on a path of redemtpion) and majority of important characters he interacted with, both allies and big bads, were actually female, because I guess as Daud you've come to expect this bad guy can do stuff noble Corvo shouldn't.

 

[Gestault]

I think I made my point clear: it would help if you argued against points she actually made, and did not argue against hypothetical scenarios you invent in order to have something to criticize.

I hope what I was trying to say about the standards for criticism only going so far as to show an element is present, but limited recognition of why or with what other elements are used, comes through. My point was that even a game which itself criticizes misogyny or sexism could be included in this video, with the limited amount of effort put into the surrounding elements. Again, my concern is that authorial intent and context is being stripped away in a way that makes a less compelling criticism.

As I asked before, how do you think the parallel I raised with writing criticism fails?

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

None of the misogyny on display here is unique to games.

Every single one of Sarkeesian's tropes has been a staple of genre cinema and pulp comics since at least the 1930s. Video games borrow heavily -- in fact, almost exclusively -- from this pop tradition, so of course they contain the sexist DNA of their forebears. I'd find Sarkeesian more interesting if she focused on how interactivity amplifies the obvious and gratuitous objectification of women in games. Games are a unique medium that offer an opportunity for a unique feminist critique. This is not it.

 

[Brakke]

This whole "but she ignores the context of these scenes in the work" is pretty hollow. How many of these games actually support critical readings? Not Dishonored, certainly. The story of all these games is "look at this bad thing that is bad because people are exploited, now go kill the exploiter".

 

[Tomohawk]

I hope what I was trying to say about the standards for criticism only going so far as to show an element is present, but limited recognition of why or with what other elements are used, comes through. My point was that even a game which itself criticizes misogyny or sexism could be included in this video, with the limited amount of effort put into the surrounding elements. Again, my concern is that authorial intent and context is being stripped away in a way that makes a less compelling criticism.

I think if the criticisms of Anita are applied to gaming as a whole, the question it raises is why are women overwhelming a victim of sexual violence, while males are barely if at all put in similar scenarios. However from Anita's ending statements it came across as if she was saying games shouldn't have sexual violence as background decoration. I think your earlier example show's why this doesn't make sense since her rule ignores how the trope is used.

edit:

None of the misogyny on display here is unique to games.

Every single one of Sarkeesian's tropes has been a staple of genre cinema and pulp comics since at least the 1930s. Video games borrow heavily -- in fact, almost exclusively -- from this pop tradition, so of course they contain the sexist DNA of their forebears. I'd find Sarkeesian more interesting if she focused on how interactivity amplifies the obvious and gratuitous objectification of women in games. Games are a unique medium that offer an opportunity for a unique feminist critique. This is not it.

She does some of this by talking about how games reward gamers for mistreating women, but it would be interesting to see her focus more on the interactivity of video games in future videos.

 

[semiconscious]

I think peoples issues with her are being misconstrued and I think most people who are angry with her are not actually angry with her, but with everyone who holds up her as a great speaker on these issues(they just take it out on her). Honestly she isnt a great speaker on the issue, she sort of cherry picks the video's and infers things that are not necessarily inferred and assumes things that dont really need to be assumed, to prove that some video games stories are shit and can be considered offensive. But, she is still highlighting(regardless of the motivations of why those set pieces are there) straight up shitty narratives in games(honestly what some gamers are satisfied with in real world stories is mind boggling to me)...

well said. imo, she tends to pontificate, as opposed to discuss, & it's that sterile/overly-analytical attitude that i find off-putting, particularly when it comes to the inferences & assumptions you mention....

so, yes, while she most definitely serves a purpose afa furthering the conversation, her personality & tone unfortunately undercut much of what she has to contribute. she's a lecturer, not a conversationalist, & many people simply don't enjoy being lectured (tho this, in no way, justifies any form of harassment)...

 

[Red Chocobo]

The biggest issue I saw in this video was that men are all portrayed as violent scumbags :/

I see that as a much worse issue, since the main audience are young males, who are easily influenced and manipulated.

 

[Riposte]

Yes! This is a key takeaway from the videos. Many of the games (and their creators) aren't sexist by intent; they're sexist because the lazy storytelling shorthand they've used to communicate certain things (like urban edginess) is sexist.

Honestly, by giving these things a little more thought, game creators won't just make less sexist games. They'll also make better, and more varied, games.

Indeed, it doesn't hurt in the slightest to bring more awareness to whatever concerns players may have and ask developers to simply think more about the design choices they make. On these grounds it's hard to be critical of the existence of these videos despite whatever disagreements or particular issues with their methods. My disconnect with that sentiment, amongst audience, is that after being made aware and having thought more about their design, what if they go "Hmm, nope, this is still what we want to do" or "I see where you are coming from but disagree with your conclusions". For example, someone might not be swayed from adding a brothel as per the vision of their world without also making the game about female victimization, giving a character that amounts to a striper extra in a HBO series dozens of lines, a Papo&Yo type game, or whatever fits the rules laid out. Do you give them an extra dose of awareness until it works, live and let be, or what?

 

[unbias]

I think if the criticisms of Anita are applied to gaming as a whole, the question it raises is why are women overwhelming a victim of sexual violence, while males are barely if at all put in similar scenarios. However from Anita's ending statements it came across as if she was saying games shouldn't have sexual violence as background decoration. I think your earlier example show's why this doesn't make sense since her rule ignores how the trope is used.

Outside of child molestation to a lot of people, I think, sexual violence on men doesn't get the same reaction as it does with women(from a male audience anyways). Sexual violence is the "shock" value in games to make you feel anything other then indifference behind the motivations of what you are doing(because they are terrible at story telling). Also, I'd argue women are not overwhelmingly a victim of sexual violence in video games, they are just the victims in a certain subset of games. There are more video games that dont put women in these situations then do.

Hell, just read womens romance novels, sexual violence is a very cheap way to get drama out of your stories. The biggest problem with video games is, they dont even get drama out of sexual violence 99% of the time, it's jsut a shitty side of the story trying to illicit feelings from you that never show up.

 

[Gestault]

This whole "but she ignores the context of these scenes in the work" is pretty hollow. How many of these games actually support critical readings? Not Dishonored, certainly. The story of all these games is "look at this bad thing that is bad because people are exploited, now go kill the exploiter".

I would be incredibly happy with deeper examinations of particular games, rather than a superficial survey of included elements out of a subset of games from the two Background Decoration videos. Also, criticizing unimpressive writing is different from the accusation of sexism or misogyny.

 

[Tomohawk]

Outside of child molestation to a lot of people, I think, sexual violence on men doesn't get the same reaction as it does with women(from a male audience anyways). Sexual violence is the "shock" value in games to make you feel anything other then indifference behind the motivations of what you are doing(because they are terrible at story telling). Also, I'd argue women are not overwhelmingly a victim of sexual violence in video games, they are just the victims in a certain subset of games. There are more video games that dont put women in these situations then do.

What I meant was theres an overwhelming amount of sexual violence on women relative to men. Also what type of reaction does male sexual violence get. In a lot of games usually a male figure of power lashes out on his prostitute/stripper, and that motivates the player to do something, or is there to highlight the type of person that person is. I don't see what would change if the prostitute/stripper was male.

I would be incredibly happy with deeper examinations of particular games, rather than a superficial survey of included elements out of a subset of games from the two Background Decoration videos. Also, criticizing unimpressive writing is different from the accusation of sexism or misogyny.

The purpose of her not diving into games, is because shes not trying to say a certain game is sexist but trying to show how pervasive a certain trope is.

 

[fernoca]

She does some of this by talking about how games reward gamers for mistreating women, but it would be interesting to see her focus more on the interactivity of video games in future videos.

And the opposite too.
We just got inFamous First Light, it would be nice to see her play and comment on it.

Also the industry's obsession of good looking/fit/straight white men in starring roles. It may not be as harmful as the way women in general are portrayed in games but still done for similar reasons: sales and sex.

 

[unbias]

What I meant was theres an overwhelming amount of sexual violence on women relative to men. Also what type of reaction does male sexual violence get. In a lot of games usually a male figure of power lashes out on his prostitute/stripper, and that motivates the player to do something, or is there to highlight the type of person that person is. I don't see what would change if the prostitute/stripper was male.

I think that there is a mindset out there that when a man is in the same position it is the guys fault, for being in that position. I mean, I think the outlook(for a lot of people) on a teacher having statutory rape with girl vs a boy shows this difference of mindset.

 

[Gestault]

She does some of this by talking about how games reward gamers for mistreating women, but it would be interesting to see her focus more on the interactivity of video games in future videos.

I would argue that her substantiations for many of these instances are simply wrong. In the previous Background video, she was lamenting how violence against women wasn't punished harshly enough in games like Sleeping Dogs, but then characterized the police interrupting you as being a reward in itself, because it could be considered exciting. An endless stream of enemies dressed in the symbols of law stopping your ability to progress/interact in interactive software, however brief, doesn't seem like a reward to me.

This was also predicated on her choosing to perform attacks on women for the video segment that were identical to attacks on men, but only showing the one and describing distinct animations for women that simply didn't exist.

 

[aeolist]

Indeed, it doesn't hurt in the slightest to bring more awareness to whatever concerns players may have and ask developers to simply think more about the design choices they make. On these grounds it's hard to be critical of the existence of these videos despite whatever disagreements or particular issues with their methods. My disconnect with that sentiment, amongst audience, is that after being made aware and having thought more about their design, what if they go "Hmm, nope, this is still what we want to do" or "I see where you are coming from but disagree with your conclusions". For example, someone might not be swayed from adding a brothel as per the vision of their world without also making the game about female victimization, giving a character that amounts to a striper extra in a HBO series dozens of lines, a Papo&Yo type game, or whatever fits the rules laid out. Do you give them an extra dose of awareness until it works, live and let be, or what?

personally i haven't seen any developers doing this. the ones that respond seem to have a positive attitude towards anita and her criticisms.

i think if someone did exactly what you're saying then they should continue to receive criticism for it. obviously nobody can force them to make anything other than what they want to make, but we can always ask for better.

 

[Gestault]

personally i haven't seen any developers doing this. the ones that respond seem to have a positive attitude towards anita and her criticisms.

i think if someone did exactly what you're saying then they should continue to receive criticism for it. obviously nobody can force them to make anything other than what they want to make, but we can always ask for better.

My favorite thing to come out of the series is reactions from within the development community. Even simply planting the awareness in the people involved is important.

 

[Orayn]

The biggest issue I saw in this video was that men are all portrayed as violent scumbags :/

I see that as a much worse issue, since the main audience are young males, who are easily influenced and manipulated.

Gonna quote myself from a bit earlier.

Men are portrayed as everything in video games. They're big and small, good and evil, brave and cowardly, aggressive and subtle. They're the unkillable plot-armored main characters, the completely ineffective cannon fodder, and the VIP-in-distress who might as well be a briefcase full of documents as far as the plot is concerned.

Women tend to be limited to a much narrower range of roles, many of which are passive, lacking in agency, or implemented just to give male players something to look at. When you consider the state of things, yeah, maybe violence against women in video games has different implications.

 

[Brakke]

I would be incredibly happy with deeper examinations of particular games, rather than a superficial survey of included elements out of a subset of games from the two Background Decoration videos. Also, criticizing unimpressive writing is different from the accusation of sexism or misogyny.

The accusations stand though. Right, the point is "this wiring is so unimpressive that it employs careless, unexamined misogyny in the service of a big empty exercise in begging the question".

You can make a game begging the violence without also bringing in these images. So why not? Just replace all the oppressed people with dogs, be direct about it.

 

[Toxi]

The biggest issue I saw in this video was that men are all portrayed as violent scumbags :/

I see that as a much worse issue, since the main audience are young males, who are easily influenced and manipulated.

Other men are portrayed as violent scumbags. The player character does not take part and doles out karmic justice after the fact. The entire issue the video maker has is how the women in these situations just exist to be killed as motivation and justification for the heroic player in day-to day events.

None of the misogyny on display here is unique to games.

Every single one of Sarkeesian's tropes has been a staple of genre cinema and pulp comics since at least the 1930s. Video games borrow heavily -- in fact, almost exclusively -- from this pop tradition, so of course they contain the sexist DNA of their forebears. I'd find Sarkeesian more interesting if she focused on how interactivity amplifies the obvious and gratuitous objectification of women in games. Games are a unique medium that offer an opportunity for a unique feminist critique. This is not it.

She goes over that with the concept of the scripted event as a world-building too, something very much unique to games. There's a very interesting part about Watch_Dogs where she points out that the player interaction is actively encouraged to deal with the violent scripted event after the fact, since diffusing the conflict beforehand earns no experience.

 

[unbias]

Gonna quote myself from a bit earlier.

I dunno, maybe it's because I play a lot of RPG's but women are showed to be more diverse then that in video games. I mean, there is that in video games, but I think women in a lot of games are represented well. It's just the shitty ones get more attention. I mean if you want I can mention a lot the women in RPG's that I think are strong and not simply relegated to a certain role, if you need me to.

And I agree that the comment you quoted wasnt very good, since her intentions were to point out issues for women in these games not men; and the fact that you can also see issues with men in these is a good thing, not a bad thing. I think that inferring the majority of video games do simply this, is unfair to a lot of video games.

 

[Tomohawk]

I think that there is a mindset out there that when a man is in the same position it is the guys fault, for being in that position. I mean, I think the outlook(for a lot of people) on a teacher having statutory rape with girl vs a boy shows this difference of mindset.

Maybe I'm ignorant to what societies perceptions are, but I always assumed that a man being sexually abused is seen as being terrible. I remember there being some outrage where I'm from, when a story was run in a paper where a man was abused and tortured by his girlfriend and another dude she met at a bar.

And the opposite too.
We just got inFamous First Light, it would be nice to see her play and comment on it.

Also the industry's obsession of good looking/fit/straight white men in starring roles. It may not be as harmful as the way women in general are portrayed in games but still done for similar reasons: sales and sex.

I haven't played infamous yet, but it would be great to see her give more positive examples in her videos. This video made me put Papa and Yo on my list of games to check out.

I would argue that her substantiations for many of these instances are simply wrong. In the previous Background video, she was lamenting how violence against women wasn't punished harshly enough in games like Sleeping Dogs, but then characterized the police interrupting you as being a reward in itself, because it could be considered exciting. An endless stream of enemies dressed in the symbols of law stopping your ability to progress/interact in interactive software, however brief, doesn't seem like a reward to me.

I thought she was talking something, like the police chases in need for speed. Which could be exciting but I haven't played sleeping dogs so I couldn't say for sure.

 

[Red Chocobo]

Gonna quote myself from a bit earlier.

I agree with what you said. But I still think that it would be nice for men to be more diverse too. Rather than just tools of destruction.

Even protagonist males are voilent. With violence often being the only solution to every problem. It's not really the best role model for young males.

 

[Gestault]

You can make a game begging the violence without also bringing in these images. So why not? Just replace all the oppressed people with dogs, be direct about it.

It should matter that some of these games use that imagery for particular thematic purposes, and since it would be easy to demonstrate that same violence against women against any other subset of the population (hotdog venders, for example) in the open-world games she's relied on for the recent videos if similarly highlighted, I see that as a problematic criticism. Again, almost a textbook definition of cherry picking.

Again, if any group or gender could replace the women used in these games, it necessarily means that isn't a sexist representation.

(For the record, all this is distinct from my original concern. If we were responding to a different video, I'd probably be with you all the way.)

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Threads like this are ban-bait, so I'll resist temptation. .. for now.

 

[unbias]

Maybe I'm ignorant to what societies perceptions are, but I always assumed that a man being sexually abused is seen as being terrible. I remember there being some outrage where I'm from, when a story was run in a paper where a man was abused and tortured by his girlfriend and another dude she met at a bar.

No, you're right, there are plenty of situations where there is a general sense that sexual abuse is bad even when it is a man. I'm just saying people are, generally, from my experience more sensitive to it when it is happening to a woman, which is why I think it is more cheaply used(consistently from books to movies).

 

[Gestault]

No, you're right, there are plenty of situations where there is a general sense that sexual abuse is bad even when it is a man. I'm just saying people are, generally, from my experience more sensitive to it when it is happening to a women, which is why I think it is more cheaply used(consistently from books to movies).

This is a good point that should probably be more prominent in the discussion.

To borrow from Witcher 2, there's a female character who's raped by an important character toward the end of the game as a way to illustrate how awful that character is. I can think of a few other examples from other games. I can't think of cases where the sexual abuse of a male character is used similarly in a narrative.

The idea that it's a more "comfortable" element to use against a woman than a man is a sign of a systemic attitudes behind game-making. Yes, I could come up with practical explanations to justify it, or about why the cultural context is the justification, but it's a real, visible pattern worth pointing out in the current state of games. I think the value of creative works is that they CAN challenge cultural attitudes, which is why this matters.

(To be fair to Witcher 2, I think that use of rape was contextually mature and did contribute to the overall narrative, and wasn't a throw-away character as the victim, so it would technically be out of place in the Background Decor video context, but it's still worth pointing out. It wasn't flippant, and it was simply brought to the player's attention that it occurred, not shown in any way.)

 

[Wiktor]

I can't think of cases where the sexual abuse of a male character is used similarly in a narrative.

)

Far Cry 3

 

[Gestault]

Far Cry 3

Fair point. That ending was an interesting reversal of sexual empowerment (at the expense of the player).

 

[Wiktor]

Fair point. That ending was an interesting reversal of sexual empowerment (at the expense of the player).

I've meant the psycho who raped one of Brody's friends. But yeah, Vaas' sister also was pretty abusive

 

[Wrestlemania]

Threads like this are ban-bait, so I'll resist temptation. .. for now.

We're all eagerly awaiting your views, so please keep us posted!

 

[Riposte]

Fair point. That ending was an interesting reversal of sexual empowerment (at the expense of the player).

I got the feeling he was talking about something that happened earlier in the game with one of the side enemies found on the first island.

EDIT: lol.

 

[Htown]

None of the misogyny on display here is unique to games.

Every single one of Sarkeesian's tropes has been a staple of genre cinema and pulp comics since at least the 1930s. Video games borrow heavily -- in fact, almost exclusively -- from this pop tradition, so of course they contain the sexist DNA of their forebears. I'd find Sarkeesian more interesting if she focused on how interactivity amplifies the obvious and gratuitous objectification of women in games. Games are a unique medium that offer an opportunity for a unique feminist critique. This is not it.

Nobody ever said this was unique to games, but games are the topic currently. She also did a series on movies/TV.

 

[Wrestlemania]

None of the misogyny on display here is unique to games.

Every single one of Sarkeesian's tropes has been a staple of genre cinema and pulp comics since at least the 1930s. Video games borrow heavily -- in fact, almost exclusively -- from this pop tradition, so of course they contain the sexist DNA of their forebears. I'd find Sarkeesian more interesting if she focused on how interactivity amplifies the obvious and gratuitous objectification of women in games. Games are a unique medium that offer an opportunity for a unique feminist critique. This is not it.

"Cover examples of misogyny in everything or don't cover it at all!"

 

[Orayn]

I agree with what you said. But I still think that it would be nice for men to be more diverse too. Rather than just tools of destruction.

Even protagonist males are voilent. With violence often being the only solution to every problem. It's not really the best role model for young males.

Video games in general are too hung up on violence, since shooting people is a lot easier to simulate and turn into detailed, involving game mechanics than stuff like negotiation, relationships, scientific discoveries, art, etc.

Hopefully developers experimenting with non-action-movie premises will lead to a corresponding increase in the diversity of protagonists and a general reduction in cliches.

 

[Riposte]

personally i haven't seen any developers doing this. the ones that respond seem to have a positive attitude towards anita and her criticisms.

i think if someone did exactly what you're saying then they should continue to receive criticism for it. obviously nobody can force them to make anything other than what they want to make, but we can always ask for better.

On one hand this makes plenty of sense on a personal level, about any topic really, but I can't help but think when said like this it runs contrary to any attempt to make the subject any less polarizing, such as bringing up awareness as an end goal (as someone did earlier in this thread) instead of some type of direct change, which is was what I was thinking of in the first place. I sense a similar incompatibility when someone says the problem is that an arguably flawed practice is simply used too much or is too common, but the language and reasoning that is employed makes it seem than any example is too much or that the only examples should be those that pretty much reverse the entire practice into something that shaped around being on message with an ideology, effectively the same as the former case. At the same time, as strongly as some people are willing to share how they feel about these practices and the context (or "culture") they are being used in, it only makes sense that they give no quarter. From this, there is a sense of inconsistency, if not dishonesty, in more amicable situations.

Video games in general are too hung up on violence, since shooting people is a lot easier to simulate and turn into detailed, involving game mechanics than stuff like negotiation, relationships, scientific discoveries, art, etc.

Hopefully developers experimenting with non-action-movie premises will lead to a corresponding increase in the diversity of protagonists and a general reduction in cliches.

I think it is more the other way around, at least in the larger sense, that interesting game mechanics decided what scenarios would become more prevalent, for the reasons you stated. Even the best dialogue choices in games are selecting options in a basic menu, a very simplistic form of interactivity that is at best a very abstract take on the action of speaking or the sense of being in a conversation with another human being. Moreover, it is was not lack for trying, as we've had decades of experimentation, where the genres as we know them were pretty much all invented decades ago from today; meanwhile, if I got a handle who your experimenting developers are, they are have more or less abandoned attempts towards any sort of complex interactivity in favor of pseudo-visual novels, perhaps the most basic of the genres (that said, I'm not commenting what you are hoping for).