Violent video games can actually cause increases in aggression, but that isn't the full picture of their mental effects (can increase empathy as well for example). There were two major problems with say, Jack Thompson's positions at the time: first was that games like GTA were "murder simulators" in the same vein as flight simulators. While action games may well get there some day (we're already getting to a place where we can have rudimentary motion controls + VR), pressing a button and shooting a gun are two entirely different motor skills. Second was that games shouldn't be protected under the first amendment, because uh... because... um... well just "because" I guess (in fact a lot of people around a decade ago really wanted to claim that games aren't or can't be art, shouldn't be regarded on that level, etc; funny enough things like the topic in this thread prove that incredibly wrong).
New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)
- Thread starter Fracas
- Start date
for the most part i'd say yes
she doesn't spend half the time talking about the redeeming factors of these games although she did mention at one point that she wasn't meaning to shit on the games she's critiquing, just on this aspect of those games
i think she's sometimes mistaken but for the most part she's right and i'd say her videos are overall fair
cos no one denied that
people were saying playing videogames or listening to rap music or whatever didn't turn you into a murderer
because the people saying otherwise are idiots
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay if you literally said "not at all" maybe a tiny apology, but at the same time those people were also under attack by the irrational groups at the time that were legitimately trying to censor games, so I don't particularly think its needed.
So isn't being sexist pretty high up there as one of the worse morally wrong things you can be? If seeing the examples of sexism make us to think of women as objects, like she says several times in her video. Shouldn't we then campaign to say that no it doesn't because it's bad?
Neoriceisgood
Member
Didn't Jack Thompson also jump into random murder cases and decided to blame video games for absolutely no reason at all?
The way he claimed video games were directly responsible for murder by sheer virtue of the killer having played them made about as much sense as blaming music, video games, news or breathing air.
Where are you going with this question?
big difference in thinking and acting yo
It's not about being 'influenced to do things'. A reaction to an article suggesting a murderer went on a spree because he played WoW or COD is usually taken with a pinch of salt because of the nature of the accusation, and because not enough study has been performed on things such as the effects of videogame violence.
That being said games don't exist in a vacuum, we're influenced by the world around us and the media we consume. Games might not turn you sexist but they can help to reinforce and contribute to pervasive societal sexism and in some cases may even be an extreme example, or contain sub-cultures which foster this.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Uhm, have we come back to where we started? I wouldn't campaign to say no it doesn't because I don't particularly think that's true, like I said up when you first brought it up: I do think that media, of which video games are a part, can influences people's sexism since culture is already sending mixed messages. The same thing is honestly true of racism. Its not true of violence, I believe (and others have written about this as well) because society has, in a pretty united front, hammered into our heads from childhood "don't just hurt other people because you want to or they have something you want"
There was definitely an aspect of this as well. We have to remember, this was a time when video games / gamers could still be considered a small cultural niche, even if they were still making large cultural strides (Thompson's crusade is evidence of their growth, as are the FF videos now). Today when someone says "OMG the killer played a video game!" everyone's just like "well of course they did; everyone does." But this is something that's fairly recent.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Very interesting video, she is pretty spot on.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I fully agree with you, I was not advocating for censorship either. I was only saying that while observing and trying to suggest changes to broad trends might seem practical enough, I see a slippery slope leading to scenarios designed by politically correctness protection committees which would only stifle the medium and not solve the problem.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Neoriceisgood
Member
What do you mean?
CrazyArcadia
Member
Other media have the same problem, that's true. But there are two things two consider IMO:
1.) Even with other media having similiar problems, it's still important to "state the obvious" for the medium of videogames since it has a completely different set of rules - interactivity. To you and me and others who reflect on creative culture, these examples are obvious. But to a majority, they aren't. These negative tropes (not only tropes against women, but also tropes concerning violence, racism and so on) are often picked up as normal when surrounded by them in so many games. And really, how many high-ranking mainstream/AAA games targeted at adults aren't full of violence with passive or no female characters apart from sports- and racing games (among the high-selling games of the last months, I can only identify Tomb Raider and Last of Us in regard to female roles within the game world.)? Which is problematic since in comparison to high ranking million dollar making products of other media ...
2.) ... for some reason, most of the current million dollar making videogame products have a tendency to enforce negative tropes. You only got the genre "Action", more or less, while mainstream books and movies offer so much more (comedy, romance, drama, even movies about espionage are more tactile than their videogame counterparts).
And even then: Looking at the book and movie industry, yeah, there are action flicks and novels that seem to follow similiar lines as AAA gaming - together with "trophy girl", gritty violence, and male hero. But there's more to "AAA" action movies and books. I think there was a pretty nice argument in one of the TvW-videos about how if game worlds only offer a mostly violent interaction with an environment, problems and success can only be measured in how good a player is in 'violence'. E.g. the trope about having to kill or beat up the girl to save her from possession or in other words "to make her snap out of it". That problem is not necessarily linked only to sexism, but to a general problem with violence as a primary problem-solving action in games.
Looking at best-selling movies and books, many of those still feature violence or emphasis on action, intrigue, thrill but these kind of narratives not always only progress through violence but also through dialogue and other skillsets of the main protagonists - here, violence isn't the norm, but usually used as a climax or for more dramatic scenes inbetween building of the story and world. They also tend to give females a less passive role, too. To call out on movies from action and horror genres featuring both male and female protagonist characters, consider Alien/Aliens, Inglourious Basterds, Scarface, Nightmare on Elm Street. These movies and series feature extremely violent and disturbing scenes but those scenes don't feel as flat as in videogames since these movies build up a world where violence is only one way to survive or succeed or even something the protagonists fear and even the violent actions by the protagonists are less of a "power fantasy". Violence obtains meaning as well since one cares much more when the characters aren't cut out stereotypes.
I called out on Scarface because if you compare the movie and its message to the videogame based on Scarface, the videogame trashes all the deeper meaning (sidenote: the role of women in Scarface can be seen as passive trophy objects from the perspective of Tony Montana, but the way the movie handles the main female characters makes it obvious that living in a world dominated by Tony breaks and destroys these women as well as Tony's male friends instead of making them flock to him, the hero, by their own will.). Scarface chronicles the fall of Tony Montana BECAUSE of his obsession with male power, american dream, self-delusion, impulsive violent behavior. The game makes these mandatory for his success instead of responsible for his fall (Scarface as a game is btw. quite fun, but it looses everything which made the movie worthwhile as a story in the progress of putting the world of Scarface into a world which follows classic videogame rules.). Same can be said about most videogame adaptions of the Alien franchise with only the upcoming game really being able to evoke the kind of feeling of the movies by.. yeah, by taking the guns away from the player who coincidentally isn't a marine this time around.
Now there are many videogames which don't rely on violence and negative tropes surrounding violence and/or female representation. But rarely do they have the same level of success in $$$ in the console gaming space (mobile is a completely different beast offering games which are more abstract in gameplay, e.g. puzzle games, board games, sims, simple reaction tests).
About that fear of Orwellian censorship: I think Anita Sarkeesian even has made a good point in stating that her examples taken one at a time could be debunked and it's more of "observing a general trend" instead of "demonizing the tropes" per se. Meaning, IMO: There is a place for games which are basically "male power fantasies" (or "female power fantasies"). It's just that the current trend is heavily in favor of "male power fantasies" even if many among the gaming community don't pick up games because of them being a male power fantasy but rather for reasons like "good gameplay", "great graphics", "fun multiplayer" and so on.
I myself am a big fan of franchises such as Dead or Alive, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and similiar stuff and these games are pandering to a male audience with the representation of women and male heroes and I know that and enjoy them still because I like being pandered to sometimes. I also enjoy Mirror's Edge and Beyond Good & Evil for the gameplay and the cool, non-sexualized female main characters. I like to choose my media according to my mood - sometimes I just want some simple fun in a fantasy world full of Sexy Girls and Super Ninjas, sometimes I want a cool and strong and non-sexualized female hero in Metroid Prime or Beyond Good&Evil, sometimes I want a game which carries a political or artistic message such as Papers, please! and Rez, sometimes I want a deep storyline or immersive world and go for Persona 4 or Divinity: Original Sin.
Sidenote: I don't know where I read that argument in regards to female player characters breaking "immersion" since "female fighters are not as powerful" and stuff like that. Now even if that argument would be true (I won't discuss my stance here for not wanting to derail the thread): Videogames based on scifi, fantasy, even real world ironic stuff like GTA is so over-the-top, but still females have to be passive and weak or bitchy and evil? I still cringe at Assassins Creed multiplayer not having a female character option, I still think it was a missed chance to not have one of the three GTA V protagonist being female. Especially since both are franchises on such a high level of recognition and success that it wouldn't negatively influence their sales among the "male gaming enthusiast" target group. I rather find it disheartening and almost irresponsible that big franchises like that don't include more non-passive/non-NPC females. And I know, the AC on Vita bombed. But for other reasons than having a female protagonist...
I think "videogames make people go kill other people" and "videogames confirm and strenghten cultural bias" are two very different discussions. What has been disproven has been the relationship between general violent behaviour and playing violent games (I think a recent study rather confirmed that frustration in games can lead to violence... as can frustration in every part of life though). On the other hand, if games continue to confirm and strengthen certain ideals and worldviews (which is different from promoting direct behavior), and doing so in a rather plumb and non-reflecting manner, they establish a certain world view as a norm - at least if one is only surrounding him/herself with products like that.
Think of fairy tales and stories for children used to giving those children a role model within an exiting adventure who might be "brave" or "smart" or "accepting" or "caring". These can be positive. Yet the brain doesn't stop to look out for role models and role behavior at an adult age. Now most people don't seek out to bring deadly force or violence into their daily lives since it's also frowned upon by society and does usually not enhance the personal situation (instead endangering it since violence leads to more violence or prison). So apart from compassion for other human beings and their well-being, there's also a strict set of rules by society which is why it can be good and even a sort of cartharsis to "let of some steam" through other outlets - some people do competitive sports, some people play action games or watch action flicks, some people don't need that at all.
On the other hand, we still have huge chunks of society being prejudiced against *insert gender, race, religious belief here* in such a strong manner that surrounding them with media which confirms this bias (*shoot that arabic-looking soldier!* *Yeah, that woman is only your trophy and that other woman is a whore who you can kill if you want to* and so on) can lead to a indirect confirmation of that worldview if their surrounding community also confirms these. (That's not a must, though, as many people tend to surround themselves with different kind of stories and media. I think this kind of discussion on a platform such as GAF is difficult especially since a majority of people posting here are aware of media influence and try to read/watch/play more than one kind of story. This kind of reflective dealing with media is not common everywhere and it's often difficult to realize that GAF =/= majority of gaming community in this kind of discussion.). Which is the reason why mainstream videogames can be -rightly so- criticised for often reinforcing the trope of "weak passive victim girls/whores", "evil foreign soldier groups", "(anti-)heroic white protagonist" and not offering the diversion of other media in that regard.
Again, I don't think we need to or even should drop these kind of narratives alltogether since storytelling should always be allowed to offer people a break from the real world or offer different perspectives and world-views to play with or to let of some steam. It's just problematic that this kind of storytelling combined with violent gameplay is the norm rather then "just another genre within the medium" as it is with movies and books when it comes to mainstream success (There are so many good, but often overlooked games in that regard within the mid-tier development and indie scene that it becomes sad and frustrating to see high-budget games most of the time pandering to one very specific target group and containing the same basic formula for gameplay with variations over and over again.).
(I strongly believe there is a link in how certain male participants of the gaming community react to female reviewers, devs and members of the gaming community and the way women are presented in many games or how player characters can/have to interact with females in games. Stuff like Tropes vs. Women, even if it is possible and in open discussion even mandatory to analyse and maybe to disagree with the methodology or criticise single arguments, to me is not only a call to awareness among the community, but also a call-out to developers to try and think outside the box when it comes to implementation of playable or passive female characters in their games.)
Earthpainting
Member
I think that is a fair assumption to make. The only characterisation we have about the king is his hotheadedness and his need to find people to blame. I think this vengeance-based line of reasoning can be applied to a lot of video game narratives, as violence is the primary way of interaction in a large chunk of them. This very episode of Tropes VS Women even had several examples of this. The fact that capturing a criminal has more agency than trying to help a victim. You could argue that stopping a criminal could minimise the amount of victims, which is what I assume the developers are going for. However since games tend to de-spawn the victims, they make you unable to even pretend to care about them after the threat has been taken care of. Victims do not seem to matter beyond providing the player with a reason to go after a dude. The stolen rock or cup from your example could very well serve a similar purpose.
I think this gets to the core of why this is important. Recognising physical violence is a lot easier than recognising a more vague construct like sexism or other forms of oppression. I feel like a lot of resistance against these things is because it forces them to examine their actions and of the people around them as well. This can lead to uncomfortable conclusions, which is why the push-back against it is so strong. No one wants to feel like they were doing something wrong all this time, and it may even feel even worse when you recognise elements of this in the people you look up to. So while I'm not sure if the consumed media directly influences people, irresponsibly handling the subjects can easily cause knee-jerk reactions that can push people's opinions away from the right path.
*e*
That was a good read, CrazyArcadia. I don't really have anything to concretely add to it, but I felt like recognising your effort and reasoning nonetheless.
Main difference I see is how they approach the subjet. Had Thompson done Topes vs Violence instead of ambulance chasing he likely would have gotten more support and the threats made against him would have gained him more sympathy.
WorriedCitizen
Member
One thing that always rubs me the wrong way about Anitas videos is this undertone of "you sexist, misonogynistic guys need to change and start making the games that i want to play". She has a point that there are very few AAA games that appeal to her demographic. But frankly i don't see myself in the position to design these games because i see the world through my male goggles and always will. The things where i have reevaluated my opinions and attitudes probably isn't enough. I will never be able to think like a woman.
For this change in game development culture that she asks for to come it will be crucial that more female developers pick up game making as a hobby which eventualy will lead to professional work. What i would like to hear more about is what the actual hurdles are. And not just some passive aggressive abstract remarks like "because sexism" or "that harrasement of women in tech needs to stop". That shit flinging on Twitter or the horrendous misogynistic crap that someone linked from the Red Pill reddit channel yesterday are in no way representative of how things actualy are between males and females in the industry irl in my experience.
I want to know why arn't there more women/girls who make an account on polycount and start asking questions about how to make pixel art or 3D art. Is it that they simply don't know about such communities because it's never mentioned in their social circles or pops up on their facebook timelines, twitters etc.? Maybe they assume DeviantArt is the place for that? Are they scared to join such communities because of the negative stereotypes associated with male developers and reinforced by Anita, Leigh and the likes? What can we do to point aspiring female devs in the right direction? Do we need a mentorship program to compensate for the hurdles that young girls might face to social network with experienced and technicaly versed male devs?
That's just a few questions that i would like see answered and discussed that could actualy help make a difference.
For this change in game development culture that she asks for to come it will be crucial that more female developers pick up game making as a hobby which eventualy will lead to professional work. What i would like to hear more about is what the actual hurdles are. And not just some passive aggressive abstract remarks like "because sexism" or "that harrasement of women in tech needs to stop". That shit flinging on Twitter or the horrendous misogynistic crap that someone linked from the Red Pill reddit channel yesterday are in no way representative of how things actualy are between males and females in the industry irl in my experience.
I want to know why arn't there more women/girls who make an account on polycount and start asking questions about how to make pixel art or 3D art. Is it that they simply don't know about such communities because it's never mentioned in their social circles or pops up on their facebook timelines, twitters etc.? Maybe they assume DeviantArt is the place for that? Are they scared to join such communities because of the negative stereotypes associated with male developers and reinforced by Anita, Leigh and the likes? What can we do to point aspiring female devs in the right direction? Do we need a mentorship program to compensate for the hurdles that young girls might face to social network with experienced and technicaly versed male devs?
That's just a few questions that i would like see answered and discussed that could actualy help make a difference.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I don't know ... he is Jack Thompson. I'm sure he'd find a way to make it horribly offensive somehow.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
We have had multiple game developers, including the Saints Row guys, some of the devs from Bioshock 2, and others (can someone list them? I think having that list would be useful) say that her work has helped them think more about the issue and will change how they approach this stuff going forward.
Honestly the whole "well men will never be able to see things from a female perspective" thing isn't necessarily inaccurate, but I do find it pretty ridiculous that you think someone needs "a female perspective" to not marginalize and/or objectify women compared to men
"irl in your experience". You are probably a man. You don't notice sexism and discrimination of women because you are not a woman. Read up on women's experiences in the video game industry and culture and listen to what they have to say. Just because you don't notice the sexism doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And when you say "it is not representative of how things actually are" you actively deny the experiences of the many women who experience sexism daily. As a result, you implicitly silence and make their experiences illegitimate, which also hurt and harm us. This is not okay, so please don't continue saying stuff like this when you're a man and have no idea about the experiences of sexism.
And I'm tired of this "all we need is more women in tech" bullshit when we have tons and tons of cases of women getting bullied, harassed, excluded, marginalized, discriminated against, etc. OF COURSE women leave the video game industry or abort a career in video games or tech when the consumers, the reporters, the enthusiasts, the employees, the communities, etc. act the way they do - i.e. sexist behavior through and through. Fucking of course women don't want to exist in these spaces when so many fucking people work to implicitly, unknowingly or knowingly, harm people who aren't white straight men.
According to his Wikipedia page he's born-again. And then there's also: "In 1993, Thompson asked a Florida judge to declare The Florida Bar unconstitutional. He said that the Bar was engaged in a vendetta against him because of his religious beliefs, which he said conflicted with what he called the Bar's pro-gay, humanist, liberal agenda."
I agree. Thompson was actually suing people and working on legislative change. Sarkeesian is literally just critiquing.
Well yeah this too. Thompson was literally all of the things people like to claim Sarkeesian is: histrionic, censoring, lying, fradulent...
The Librarian
Banned
I think her videos are pretty much spot on.
It really hit home for me how disgusting videogames like Red Dead and GTA are. And even some games I've liked and enjoyed like BioShock 2, she was completely right about that. Though those weren't as bed as the aforementioned Rockstar games.
I think one of the if not the most disgusting things I saw was that No More Heroes 2 cutscene. Absolutely horrible. What in the world were those developers thinking?
It really hit home for me how disgusting videogames like Red Dead and GTA are. And even some games I've liked and enjoyed like BioShock 2, she was completely right about that. Though those weren't as bed as the aforementioned Rockstar games.
I think one of the if not the most disgusting things I saw was that No More Heroes 2 cutscene. Absolutely horrible. What in the world were those developers thinking?
Neoriceisgood
Member
Neoriceisgood
Member
I remember learning that the term "worldly" was seen as negative by conservative fundamentalists.
AlimNassor
Banned
Why do you always jump down everyones throats? You come off as harsh. You always see everything has the most extreme example, even though I agree with you on mostly everything. He didn't say anything too bad, he wasn't denying sexism, so why the shit flinging? He pointed out that he didn't know what made a good female character, he didn't say he wanted all women to be naked and fanservicey. So why jump all over him and demonize him?
So, in response men have no right to comment on sexism so we shouldn't talk to you anymore? I understand sexism loud and clear, and i''ve experienced it. I've never had it as bad as women, but, I know enough to empathize and understand how women can feel. Stop acting like your shit don't stink,like you're some moral crusader so superior to everyone.
For some reason I feel like this is the appropriate response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6iTwVIiMM
WorriedCitizen
Member
Look Lime and Technomancer i have raised questions that could spark a constructive dialogue. You chose to ignore them and instead pick on the part of my comment that you disagree with the most, repeat Twitter mantras and go a confrontational course. That's the reason why the whole discussion has become so heated and entrenched over the last couple weeks/months.
I can't do more then to reach out to aspiring female devs with my technical and artistic expertise, speak up against it when a case of sexist or misogynistic behaviour in my surroundings comes to my attention and have an open ear for problems and hurdles. "But of course it happens!" is just an abstract and broad statement that i can't work with and is actualy detrimental and damaging to give females convidence to even try. I am not a monster and so arn't most of the many nice people that i call my colleagues and acquaintances, contrary to what the twitter war zone wants you make to believe.
I need to hear about real world stuff actualy happening in my professional environment and the communities i frequent as a dev. Only then i can do something about putting that person in their place and help the female dev to feel more welcome.
It's as much about the female perspective as it is about personal interests. People tend to end up making the kind of game they like to play themselfes. If you want more diverse games you need more diverse developers. I'm just a small cog in the huge mechanism of game making and i will continue making games that i have a big interest in personaly. I don't see games like GTA 5 as critical as Anita. I like them as they are. So i'm the wrong guy to ask make something that is a cultural counter point to that. That's all i'm saying. I don't believe that making small tweaks to female characters will be the end point of the discussion and everbody going home and be happy. Real change can only come from diversity.
I can't do more then to reach out to aspiring female devs with my technical and artistic expertise, speak up against it when a case of sexist or misogynistic behaviour in my surroundings comes to my attention and have an open ear for problems and hurdles. "But of course it happens!" is just an abstract and broad statement that i can't work with and is actualy detrimental and damaging to give females convidence to even try. I am not a monster and so arn't most of the many nice people that i call my colleagues and acquaintances, contrary to what the twitter war zone wants you make to believe.
I need to hear about real world stuff actualy happening in my professional environment and the communities i frequent as a dev. Only then i can do something about putting that person in their place and help the female dev to feel more welcome.
It's as much about the female perspective as it is about personal interests. People tend to end up making the kind of game they like to play themselfes. If you want more diverse games you need more diverse developers. I'm just a small cog in the huge mechanism of game making and i will continue making games that i have a big interest in personaly. I don't see games like GTA 5 as critical as Anita. I like them as they are. So i'm the wrong guy to ask make something that is a cultural counter point to that. That's all i'm saying. I don't believe that making small tweaks to female characters will be the end point of the discussion and everbody going home and be happy. Real change can only come from diversity.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Thats your definition of confrontational? Your whole point was that there's no way to deal with this issue other than getting more woman into gaming, and therefore these videos are kind of pointless unless that happens. I responded by saying "no, (male) developers even now are saying that these videos are changing their perspectives".
The problem with the whole "we need more women in tech" thing is that, while its true, when its used as an objection to this kind of work the overall point comes across as "why even address these concerns to men? lets just get more women in game development and thats the way to fix it"
I never got the sense that she thought the developers of most of these games were sexist. Do you think you may be projecting your feelings onto her
I was almost a game developer, but I didn't really like the way I was treated so I U-turned out of there.
A key human need is the feeling of belonging or acceptance, if you're brain gives off the subconscious vibe of "this is not your place" you'll turn around and go somewhere else. It only takes about 3 odd comments to get the red flags going unfortunately. I don't like being perceived as "the woman," I need to be seen as "the human" in order to feel at home. For more thoughts and studies on that, read about social rejection: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection
It wasn't that long ago when women and blacks were considered innately different from "real men." If you ask around now, a lot of people still point it out, but they do so reluctantly. Blacks weren't allowed to go down certain career paths because they were were perceived as not intellectual enough. They were denied that opportunity because of their association with race, instead of how they actually performed on an individual basis. It didn't matter what potential they had because to the populace, blacks were inferior. Blacks were only allowed into heavy labor jobs and with much less pay.
Women were sent away from almost all jobs because they were perceived as being BOTH too weak and also not intelligent enough. Again, this had nothing to do with how they were individually but how they were perceived as a group. Even if most jobs today are about typing on a keyboard or pushing a button, women are still seen as not as capable.
This is illegal today. You have to give everyone a chance. However, there are many studies on perceptions and men still clearly feel as though women are less trustworthy, more distracting, less intelligent and weak. Black people are seen as less trustworthy and less confident. Our representation in games follows that sentiment pretty well, and we are raised in a society that continues to focus on these supposed "innate differences" in order to justify discrimination. I've spent 22 years soaking in plenty of media and they all say the same thing about women.
Colonialists of the past would point out biological differences to justify atrocities done to natives and justify slavery. Minorities weren't just inferior, they were also closer to savagery. We think these things are gone, but everywhere I look I still see it clear as day.
Anita barely pokes at the tip of the iceberg. Prejudice and discrimination is deeply tied to us all and leaves the perpetrators blind to the fact that they perpetuate terrible stereotypes echoed from centuries old. I suppose it's all very subtle, but it does plenty of harm.
The only way to stop it is to rid the whole "Othering" thing. Don't define women or minorities as being tied to inferiority. Just represent us better. Don't assume the way someone is born defines their place in life. Just doing that a little more would help exponentially, and then all the angry inferior people could finally feel just a bit more welcome.
A key human need is the feeling of belonging or acceptance, if you're brain gives off the subconscious vibe of "this is not your place" you'll turn around and go somewhere else. It only takes about 3 odd comments to get the red flags going unfortunately. I don't like being perceived as "the woman," I need to be seen as "the human" in order to feel at home. For more thoughts and studies on that, read about social rejection: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection
It wasn't that long ago when women and blacks were considered innately different from "real men." If you ask around now, a lot of people still point it out, but they do so reluctantly. Blacks weren't allowed to go down certain career paths because they were were perceived as not intellectual enough. They were denied that opportunity because of their association with race, instead of how they actually performed on an individual basis. It didn't matter what potential they had because to the populace, blacks were inferior. Blacks were only allowed into heavy labor jobs and with much less pay.
Women were sent away from almost all jobs because they were perceived as being BOTH too weak and also not intelligent enough. Again, this had nothing to do with how they were individually but how they were perceived as a group. Even if most jobs today are about typing on a keyboard or pushing a button, women are still seen as not as capable.
This is illegal today. You have to give everyone a chance. However, there are many studies on perceptions and men still clearly feel as though women are less trustworthy, more distracting, less intelligent and weak. Black people are seen as less trustworthy and less confident. Our representation in games follows that sentiment pretty well, and we are raised in a society that continues to focus on these supposed "innate differences" in order to justify discrimination. I've spent 22 years soaking in plenty of media and they all say the same thing about women.
Colonialists of the past would point out biological differences to justify atrocities done to natives and justify slavery. Minorities weren't just inferior, they were also closer to savagery. We think these things are gone, but everywhere I look I still see it clear as day.
Anita barely pokes at the tip of the iceberg. Prejudice and discrimination is deeply tied to us all and leaves the perpetrators blind to the fact that they perpetuate terrible stereotypes echoed from centuries old. I suppose it's all very subtle, but it does plenty of harm.
The only way to stop it is to rid the whole "Othering" thing. Don't define women or minorities as being tied to inferiority. Just represent us better. Don't assume the way someone is born defines their place in life. Just doing that a little more would help exponentially, and then all the angry inferior people could finally feel just a bit more welcome.
I think it's as much Sarkeesian is demonstrating how many games are implicitly intended to be played by men, and she's highlighting the trends and shortcomings in that. If a mass-market creative medium has most of its content built around simplistic or distorted gender assumptions, that's totally a problem worth examining.
I'm also one of the those cogs, and even though I'm a man I'm willing to try my best at creating a female character. I admit it's hard in some ways, for example I've noticed when I'm not paying attention my mind defaults to 'he' rather than 'she' when talking about the main character (probably also because we're early in development). But I just see it as a challenge, and maybe I'll learn something along the way. Always fun to evolve and grow as a developer and person. Of course, depending on where you work it may be harder to influence the outcome of a game. Partly why I love doing indie games.
And I agree with you that more female devs would definitely be a good thing, but I think any change is better than no change at all, even if it's just small tweaks. You gotta start somewhere.
Alim, I think you are being rather contradictory when you say you agree with most things Lime says and then proceed to claim Lime as a poser, as if someone cannot have strong feelings about an issue and if they do, are disingenuous about it.
WorriedCitizen: I think you can do a lot more than just call it out when you see it. Given that you have influence on the creative process, as a developer you have the ability to influence systems at play that carry problematic perceptions of women. Even if you are not directly a part of the process causing the problem, you certainly have a voice and should exercise it if you feel an abuse is occurring in the product you're working on. It's tough, and it's not comfortable to do, but we do have a responsibility to our past. I certainly don't want to read about a great game I made that was marred by its abhorrent treatment of characters, and I don't think anyone else does either. But the only way to make that future is to not repeat the same mistakes again. Do not remain silent.
Then again, maybe Jeri's experience is a lot more common amongst game devs than I'm aware of.
WorriedCitizen: I think you can do a lot more than just call it out when you see it. Given that you have influence on the creative process, as a developer you have the ability to influence systems at play that carry problematic perceptions of women. Even if you are not directly a part of the process causing the problem, you certainly have a voice and should exercise it if you feel an abuse is occurring in the product you're working on. It's tough, and it's not comfortable to do, but we do have a responsibility to our past. I certainly don't want to read about a great game I made that was marred by its abhorrent treatment of characters, and I don't think anyone else does either. But the only way to make that future is to not repeat the same mistakes again. Do not remain silent.
Then again, maybe Jeri's experience is a lot more common amongst game devs than I'm aware of.
YesConsiderably
Banned
In Metro: Last Light, literally a few seconds after the rape encounter she spoke about, you come to another scripted event where a gang member strongly implies he's going to use a male victim for his own sexual gratification.
The ratio of instances of sexual violence committed against women and those committed against men, in this game, is 1:1.
I don't understand why all of her videos are littered with these kinds of inconsistencies. Does she play the games herself?
I remember her video in which she spoke of the 'woman in the refrigerator' trope, and spoke at length about The Darkness, bemoaning the way that it disempowered Jenny, the female lead... seemingly oblivious to the fact that helplessness and loss of power is a core theme of the franchise, and that you as the player are disempowered several times throughout the course of the story.
I've found her difficult to watch since then.
The ratio of instances of sexual violence committed against women and those committed against men, in this game, is 1:1.
I don't understand why all of her videos are littered with these kinds of inconsistencies. Does she play the games herself?
I remember her video in which she spoke of the 'woman in the refrigerator' trope, and spoke at length about The Darkness, bemoaning the way that it disempowered Jenny, the female lead... seemingly oblivious to the fact that helplessness and loss of power is a core theme of the franchise, and that you as the player are disempowered several times throughout the course of the story.
I've found her difficult to watch since then.
Which is also why the discussion that her videos has prompted is so useful. Things that you didn't understand could be demeaning, you now should have an awareness of.
Does it show the male victims? I ask because most of these games show passive or sexualized men in a humorous fashion to make sure the player stays comfortably homophobic.
Which is a problem, because the market has changed.
WorriedCitizen
Member
Your case is a good example of what i would actualy like to know about if it happend in my real world dev environment. I would feel awful if i found out after the fact that something i said triggered you leaving the industry or something that a colleague said and i just shrugged about.
I'm also one of the those cogs, and even though I'm a man I'm willing to try my best at creating a female character. I admit it's hard in some ways, for example I've noticed when I'm not paying attention my mind defaults to 'he' rather than 'she' when talking about the main character (probably also because we're early in development). But I just see it as a challenge, and maybe I'll learn something along the way. Always fun to evolve and grow as a developer and person. Of course, depending on where you work it may be harder to influence the outcome of a game. Partly why I love doing indie games.
And I agree with you that more female devs would definitely be a good thing, but I think any change is better than no change at all, even if it's just small tweaks. You gotta start somewhere.
My influence is very limited as far as stories or characters goes. If i can make a difference then more in actual human interaction with colleagues and the dev communities that i frequent. Maybe it came of in my earlier comment like i feel i've reached the end of the road yet in how far i can reevaluate and change my own attitude and opinions which isn't the case. But i certainly feel like ther's a boundary lingering somewhere where it crosses into what i enjoy in my games and media. And that's where other devs need to work on providing alternatives.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
What work are these citations doing for your argument? What is your argument, actually? Are we supposed to read these decontextualized snippets of critical theory and 1) accept them as being academically uncontested (they are not) or "factually" valid and 2) somehow explanatory of the mechanism by which negative portrayals in video games (as opposed to negative portrayals in music, movies, etc) engender or reinforce societal sexism?
It's not really anyone's fault. Let's say for example a girl goes into the field. For her entire life to this point she's been in school where all of her friends were female and the school was a 50/50 split between male and female.
Then she gets into a college for game design and there is only one other girl in her class. She will immediately feel a tinge of sadness from the lack of potential female friends she can talk to. As fickle as it sounds, having those other girls around her gave her a sense of belonging and comfort. (There are just certain things girls need to talk to other girls about) When she sees that there aren't any other girls around, her mind becomes more sensitive to the fact that she is different. She is now on the lookout for "social rejection."
A guy makes a harmless comment about sandwiches. And then another guy lingers at her cleavage or something. Then she enters the lab and sees posters of female game characters that look like porn stars. When she talks she's always cut off by someone else. Red flags are triggered, and now she feels irrationally sensitive to her differences. She feels a strong threatening feeling of marginalization and sexual harassment too probably.
I had a gay friend who was in game design for a day. After one class he transferred to media design and was happier to see more diversity in terms of sexual orientation and gender.
What really matters is whether the person values happiness through "belonging" more or happiness solely from their career path. Girls are ultra social, so it's normal for us to follow where the other girls are going. Also we're told from an early age that certain occupations are too masculine for us so we turn the other way.
Stories and characters aren't all that was on display here. What we saw frequently was the use of systems to create scenarios of dis-empowerment. It is always a bit strange to me to hear of how people talk about games as these empowering things, yet what they empower people to do typically ends with the domination of some subordinate entity. Power fantasy as a term certainly didn't become popular on its own, and it's extraordinarily alienating when the empowering fantasy is at the expense of those who are already marginalized.
That aside, you can certainly be an advocate for better treatment, but I think it's most meaningful and impactful when it results from a creation in your own work.
Oh I see where I got confused then. My apologies.
I haven't assumed anything. I'm proposing an ideal that many would desire. Of course a lot of these things have been ingrained into our minds for centuries, but we have to start somewhere if we want to get anywhere.
Just because we've been stuck like this for centuries doesn't mean we can't make strides to change. If more men and women get used to seeing each other define themselves as they please, we can start change. But sitting around worrying about setbacks is going to get us nowhere.
I am well aware that this movement hasn't reached far in other countries. But you know what? That's because it's still in its infancy. Once it gains more momentum, then we can start spreading it globally.
This is where I got confused haha, thanks for clearing it up.
I thought you were implying about celebrities ala Nicki Minaj, etc. That's why I was saying women should be free to love their bodies and dress/behave as they please to be true to themselves.
You're absolutely right. And since you're aware of the fact that these issues exist and are toxic, I'm sure you know the only way to tackle these issues is by talking about it. Racism and sexism will not go away by staying silent. We gotta speak up and challenge the people that spew garbage.
It's not an easy fight. It never has been. But if we keep using that as an excuse to do nothing, we're gonna stay stagnant.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Excellent post overall. I found this point to be particularly interesting. At Gaf I think it's safe to say that for most posters gaming is either 1) their life's passion or 2) their preferred/exclusive entertainment medium. I'd classify myself as the latter: I don't actually game that much compared to the amount of time I spend doing other things, but I never watch TV/movies and only rarely read fiction and I don't listen to popular music, so gaming is basically the only popular culture exposure I get.
But for the vast majority of gamers (group 3) I think gaming is just one form of entertainment among many others. They buy a game or two a year and play that, but they also have a Netflix subscription and a cable subscription and they spend several hours a week watching TV and they know who the Beyoncés and the Nicki Minajes and whoever else are.
So yes, groups 1 and 2 might have their worldviews altered/reinforced by depictions of women in gaming because gaming is their only pastime, in the same way that someone who eats only carrots will turn orange. But the vast majority of gamers consume all elements of popular culture, not just games, and so for them the problem isn't going to be the depiction of women in games so much as it will be the depiction of women societally across media.