Are MMOs generally easy / unfailable?

daninthemix

daninthemix

Member
Pardon my ignorance in this area, but is it the case that MMOs are generally about guaranteed progression - completing quests, levelling up, obtaining items - rather than undertaking Dark Souls-style challenges again and again until they are overcome?
 
daninthemix said:
Pardon my ignorance in this area, but is it the case that MMOs are generally about guaranteed progression - completing quests, levelling up, obtaining items - rather than undertaking Dark Souls-style challenges again and again until they are overcome?
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yeah aside from a few exceptions
 
Every MMO I've tried (note, basically exclusively asian ones) it's fairly easy to bumble into higher level areas and get defeated easily. There's a starting area it's impossible to break out of TOO early, but once the training wheels are off you can access a variety of places that will easily kill you.

Can't say about the WoWs and ESOs and such, I decided to never play MMOs again before all that got too big.
 
The really hard content is usually just end game stuff including raids that you kinda have to seek out.
 
Hell no. I was in a raiding guild in vanilla WoW for 2 years and trust me, you CAN and WILL fail horribly, over and over. Some bosses in Blackwing Lair took us months to take down.
 
It was harder to level in Vanilla WoW. They made it easier and easier as level caps were raised.

As a mage I had to sheep and pull quest mobs carefully. Raid like.
 
Old ones were definitely famed for insane difficulty and obtuseness. That pretty much stopped after a WoW expansion or two, but in vanilla WoW you could really get your ass kicked even in the starter zones if you weren't careful. Mobs chain pulled like crazy and handling more than 3 enemies at a time as certain classes was... difficult.

Everquest was even crazier, roaming NPCs that would just mercilessly kill you for fun, zones that became utter fucking hell after the sun set, etc. Been a long time since I saw any of that but it probably makes Dark Souls look like a kids game.
 
Sir TapTap said:
Every MMO I've tried (note, basically exclusively asian ones) it's fairly easy to bumble into higher level areas and get defeated easily. There's a starting area it's impossible to break out of TOO early, but once the training wheels are off you can access a variety of places that will easily kill you.

Can't say about the WoWs and ESOs and such, I decided to never play MMOs again before all that got too big.
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True, but wandering into a high-level area and getting owned isn't exactly an indication of challenge. There's not much you can do skill-wise to beat those areas until you are higher level (by completing quests, gearing up with items), and once you are the requisite level the enemies tend to be, in my experience, just as easy as lower-level "trash mobs", hence their name.
 
La Poisse said:
Hell no. I was in a raiding guild in vanilla WoW for 2 years and trust me, you CAN and WILL fail horribly, over and over. Some bosses in Blackwing Lair took us months to take down.
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I think he means the leveling progress, not the endgame content.

To answer OP's question, if you think the game is too easy/unfailable try going into places above your level.
 
I spent a day or so in final fantasy xiv wandering through high level areas with a four man group trying to take on tougher mobs all xp parties in ffxi. Fun but not very productive.

And yeah, they try to make the content difficult in most end game mmos, but usually with 'wipe' mechanics where you will die horribly if anybody makes a mistake. Once people figure it out and get decently geared it becomes a cakewalk most of the time. I remember fos 3 raid in dcuo being a real bitch no matter how geared the group because usually someone would forget the raid mechanics and screw everything up.
 
I believe the only MMO right now that is difficult/failable is Wildstar, but its not really in a good position. The WoW expansion will possibly make things more difficult too.

Otherwise you generally have easy mode stuff like GW2 with little to no challange at all and catering for the much larger casual crowd.
 
FleckSplat said:
True, but wandering into a high-level area and getting owned isn't exactly an indication of challenge. There's not much you can do skill-wise to beat those areas until you are higher level (by completing quests, gearing up with items), and once you are the requisite level the enemies tend to be, in my experience, just as easy as lower-level "trash mobs", hence their name.
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Every game is different, the good ones offer plenty leverage in terms of beating the higher areas, above your level.
 
In Final Fantasy XIV at least, most of the content is rather easy, the challenge is in the dungeons. After the first few dungeons, dungeon and storyline bosses can get tricky, and the further you go, the harder they get, especially once you hit end-game (level 50). It makes boss fights really fun and challenging.

While the quest grinding is super easy, I wouldn't say that the games are unfailable by a long shot. You can't just dink around in those boss fights and expect to win.
 
385px-Dvergr_2_FFXI_8295.png


Fuck this guy.
 
daninthemix said:
Pardon my ignorance in this area, but is it the case that MMOs are generally about guaranteed progression - completing quests, levelling up, obtaining items - rather than undertaking Dark Souls-style challenges again and again until they are overcome?
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Most of the challenge in the ones I've played start at endgame activities. The progression to level cap varies but is rarely meant to be difficult because they want you to keep playing. They tend to run into a problem of making the game too impenetrable to start if they're trying to actually design a worthwhile challenge while leveling. Doesn't even matter if it's bad or good, many people will be turned off in a modern game of that size if it doesn't reward them early enough.
 
I'd say most MMOs make sure about 90% of the game can be completed by someone who puts in little to no effort. There are things such as heroic (mythic) raids in WoW which are designed to be a roadblock for most people but they have a tendency to get nerfed/handed out toward the end of the content's life cycle.
 
The content is made to be progressed through, yes. Normal mobs usually won't kill you, but some quests can be difficult and meant for teams, and if you're bad enough (or have a bad enough class for leveling) normal mobs can be tough.

If the leveling experience seems too easy, play on a PVP server.

Endgame content is generally set in tiers of difficulty and the difficulty will vary by game. I think you can faceroll through most of WoW on a 5-man pug team nowadays, but I don't know if that's where the whole genre is headed.
 
I remember the good old days of playing Knight Online. It was pure grind from 1-70lvl and everytime you died you lost 5 or 10% experience from your current lvl. On higher levels it was hours of grinding lost when u died. Never got past lvl 64 :/
 
I do miss the old days of Final Fantasy XI - THAT game felt like a great challenge. Even the "trash" wandering the overworld could easily kill someone venturing where they shouldn't, and weren't easily avoidable - you needed to be in a party to defeat them. I could do without the loss of XP when dieing, though :)

Me and my friends (a party of 4, though the game was balanced for parties of 6) made it a bit past the original story "end" at level 60, and that felt like a real achievement.
 
Omotesando said:
Those are all in the same vein, aka WoW and its copycats. Yea, those games only offers true challenge in the late end content.
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GW2 is not in the same vein as WoW. Its totally different. I like to bitch about it alot whil waiting for the devs to do something other than the ****y living story (I mean come on expansion), but saying it is the same as WoW is absurd.

At least in WoW there is some challange, GW2 is just stack and steamroll. There is little to no difficulty in playing GW2. And at its core, its a cosmetic progression game where 'everything' is apparently endgame.

Leafhopper said:
600+ hours in Guild Wars 2 and I can still get wrecked in some dungeons.
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Dont worry, once you get in the thousands of hours you will realize how easy it is to steamroll them.
 
FleckSplat said:
True, but wandering into a high-level area and getting owned isn't exactly an indication of challenge. There's not much you can do skill-wise to beat those areas until you are higher level (by completing quests, gearing up with items), and once you are the requisite level the enemies tend to be, in my experience, just as easy as lower-level "trash mobs", hence their name.
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Can't speak for many others, but Trickster Online definitely had a significant difficulty curve, and even being the "proper level", soloing areas became near impossible past around level 100 unless you were extremely overleveled/overgeared, bosses evenmoreso. Aside from the grinding necessary on the occasions when quests ran out and the occasional difficulty in finding a party at higher levels, I found the difficulty curve pretty okay.

The game was designed sort of weirdly, starting with wide gaps in leveled content with "medium" level areas added between the dead space between other areas later, so grinding was unfortunately a necessity parts which is initially why I quit the game. International servers shut down last year though.
 
Pankratous said:
FFXI back in the day was absolutely solid. No idea what it is like now.
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I started in Windy. The first trek to Valkurm Dunes (across Buburimu Peninsula and on a ferry with Sea Horror) was terrifying.
 
I kinda feel like MMOs do have some dark souls styled encounters where you have to try and try to perfect a strategy to progress. I've mainly played wow and mainly raided during the classic/vanilla version and you definitely had to spend a lot of time with a team of 40 people perfecting a strategy to beat a boss or even sometimes just trash spawns leading up to a boss.

I don't see why you think they are unfailable. As casual as wow is in some parts of the game, there are areas where you can easily easily fail.

I personally also think the challenge of dark souls is a bit overstated. It is mainly learning how to do something that is the main challenge, in both games. But I'd say having to get 40 people all on the same page and executing well, is even more of a challenge than dark souls.
 
I trumpet old 75 cap FFXI anytime I can, but it was the only other game besides the Souls series that gave me a real sense of accomplishment when I beat something or obtained a tough to get piece of equipment. It's vastly different today sadly.
 
Pejo said:
I trumpet old 75 cap FFXI anytime I can, but it was the only other game besides the Souls series that gave me a real sense of accomplishment when I beat something or obtained a tough to get piece of equipment. It's vastly different today sadly.
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Mirror this. It was a great accomplishment for me as well
 
Sir TapTap said:
Every MMO I've tried (note, basically exclusively asian ones) it's fairly easy to bumble into higher level areas and get defeated easily. There's a starting area it's impossible to break out of TOO early, but once the training wheels are off you can access a variety of places that will easily kill you.

Can't say about the WoWs and ESOs and such, I decided to never play MMOs again before all that got too big.
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Then there is the difficulty which can vary depending on your class. Some classes solo can take on a wide range of enemies, even when they're of a higher level while others might struggle to take on something that is lower in level. It is/was about how you managed your character and played it. Two players with identical builds might not be able to do the same things based on their skill level with the class and it's understanding.

This is how the term kiting came about I believe. Trying to stay ahead of your enemy as you lead them around trying to kill them and not get hit. It's actually somewhat difficult to pull off, even more so if you are playing a class where by all accounts you shouldn't be attempting to do due to your skill and ability setup.

Even in group play if a team does not work well together and complement enough other that will determine how difficulty an encounter can be. Sure things can be brute forced if one is a high enough level but that's rarely going to be the norm I think.

My experience with this has mainly been with older mmorpgs like Everquest 1 and 2. I've encountered this to varying degrees in games up to things like The Secret World/The Old Republic . I'm not really sure how some of the brand new games like WiIldstar or ESO handle things as you progress but I would think they might be similar.
 
Mobius and pet octopus said:
I kinda feel like MMOs do have some dark souls styled encounters where you have to try and try to perfect a strategy to progress. I've mainly played wow and mainly raided during the classic/vanilla version and you definitely had to spend a lot of time with a team of 40 people perfecting a strategy to beat a boss or even sometimes just trash spawns leading up to a boss.

I don't see why you think they are unfailable. As casual as wow is in some parts of the game, there are areas where you can easily easily fail.

I personally also think the challenge of dark souls is a bit overstated. It is mainly learning how to do something that is the main challenge, in both games. But I'd say having to get 40 people all on the same page and executing well, is even more of a challenge than dark souls.
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The OP seems to be talking about progression when leveling up, not really high level raiding.

Leveling up in MMOs is generally unfailable, though still there are some areas that are a bit harder of course.
 
SkeptiMism said:
The OP seems to be talking about progression when leveling up, not really high level raiding.

Leveling up in MMOs is generally unfailable, though still there are some areas that are a bit harder of course.
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Yeah this is what I was getting at - the idea that progression drives play, even when it comes easily. Whereas in Dark Souls progression is hard-fought.
 
SkeptiMism said:
The OP seems to be talking about progression when leveling up, not really high level raiding.

Leveling up in MMOs is generally unfailable, though still there are some areas that are a bit harder of course.
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It really does vary from game to game in the end. Or at least it used to.
 
Sir TapTap said:
Can't speak for many others, but Trickster Online definitely had a significant difficulty curve, and even being the "proper level", soloing areas became near impossible past around level 100 unless you were extremely overleveled/overgeared, bosses evenmoreso. Aside from the grinding necessary on the occasions when quests ran out and the occasional difficulty in finding a party at higher levels, I found the difficulty curve pretty okay.

The game was designed sort of weirdly, starting with wide gaps in leveled content with "medium" level areas added between the dead space between other areas later, so grinding was unfortunately a necessity parts which is initially why I quit the game. International servers shut down last year though.
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Interesting, that's good to know. I'm not familiar with Trickster Online.
 
Jailer of Hope said:
That shit actually drove me to level up. lol I probably never would have reached end game if the challenge didn't encourage me to experience each new battle.
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I wish I could say the same thing, it only made me hate the fact that I leveled any mage.

Hey masta you have that awesome awesome bst right? Well go to your mog house and switch to brd, rdm, or blm for this mission because I need buffs bitch
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daninthemix said:
Pardon my ignorance in this area, but is it the case that MMOs are generally about guaranteed progression - completing quests, levelling up, obtaining items - rather than undertaking Dark Souls-style challenges again and again until they are overcome?
Click to expand...
Dark Souls is different from most RPGs in that the stats aren't really that important - you can complete the entire game at Soul Level 1 using little more than your fists if you're persistent and skilled enough.

MMORPGs are not like this, no. In fact, most MMORPGs have very little in the way of skill-based elements in the first place. No active dodging, no real hit detection (just tab targeting and a basic range check), no need to worry about overextending with your attacks... they're very much stat-based like their MUD predecessors. Newer MMORPGs are starting to move away from that old paradigm but it's been a very long time coming, and even then you shouldn't expect anything on the level of a Souls game (much less Dragon's Dogma).
 
I still have some screenshots somewhere where me and a random dude went from Darnassus to Menethil harbor, only to be GANKED by crocodiles right outside the city.

Granted, I was buying WHITE staffs for my druid, and we were 4-5 levels lower than should have been (16-17 for what was a 22-23 moblevel), but it was still freaking scary :D

Teremap said:
Dark Souls is different from most RPGs in that the stats aren't really that important - you can complete the entire game at Soul Level 1 using little more than your fists if you're persistent and skilled enough.

MMORPGs are not like this, no. In fact, most MMORPGs have very little in the way of skill-based elements in the first place. No active dodging, no real hit detection (just tab targeting and a basic range check), no need to worry about overextending with your attacks... they're very much stat-based like their MUD predecessors. Newer MMORPGs are starting to move away from that old paradigm but it's been a very long time coming, and even then you shouldn't expect anything on the level of a Souls game (much less Dragon's Dogma).
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And yet positioning and effectiveness still matters. Not to mention the fact that even though one could say that the foundation is "non-skill based", the emergent gameplay that came out of it in heroics and heroic raids IS relentless, hard and demanding.
 
SkeptiMism said:
The OP seems to be talking about progression when leveling up, not really high level raiding.

Leveling up in MMOs is generally unfailable, though still there are some areas that are a bit harder of course.
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Yeah I guess I could see solo content of your level or lower being very easy. Although even some mid level content can be challenging if you're still learning the game's group fighting mechanics and are in an instance of adequate level.
 
Hyunashi said:
GW2 is not in the same vein as WoW. Its totally different. I like to bitch about it alot whil waiting for the devs to do something other than the ****y living story (I mean come on expansion), but saying it is the same as WoW is absurd.

At least in WoW there is some challange, GW2 is just stack and steamroll. There is little to no difficulty in playing GW2. And at its core, its a cosmetic progression game where 'everything' is apparently endgame.



Dont worry, once you get in the thousands of hours you will realize how easy it is to steamroll them.
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Do you even write this with a straight face? Yes, after a 1000 hours of doing something you do in fact get better, know all the tricks and know how to break it. (with that said, I do agree that a lot of the lower dungeons are stack and roll, that's why a lot of players don't bother with Arah and Aetherblade path because it actually requires brains).

WOW the game where mods play it for you. A game where a blind guy, was able to play the game sufficiently to be third highest dps. WOW isn't hard. If you want a difficult game play aion, the only problem is the rng (I lased played it 3 years ago, so I could be wrong).
 
daninthemix said:
..rather than undertaking Dark Souls-style challenges again and again until they are overcome?
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Current MMO's sure.. but good god the amount of EXP I lost in Everquest.

Playing Dark Souls for the first time reminded me a lot of that game. The sense of exploration and danger.. good stuff.
 
Jailer of Hope said:
That shit actually drove me to level up. lol I probably never would have reached end game if the challenge didn't encourage me to experience each new battle.
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there were so many good fights too, prommys at 30, diabolos at 40(i think) mithras at 50, and the infamous alpha and omega at 60, tenzen at 75

such an amazing progression expansion. I still love how FFXI separated its story and leveling, it made the story so much more well crafted and tuned than any other MMO
 
silvermember said:
Do you even write this with a straight face? Yes, after a 1000 hours of doing something you do in fact get better, know all the tricks and know how to break it. (with that said, I do agree that a lot of the lower dungeons are stack and roll, that's why a lot of players don't bother with Arah and Aetherblade path because it actually requires brains).

WOW the game where mods play it for you. A game where a blind guy, was able to play the game sufficiently to be third highest dps. WOW isn't hard. If you want a difficult game play aion, the only problem is the rng (I lased played it 3 years ago, so I could be wrong).
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This is a crock of shit and you know it.
 
Reishiki said:
385px-Dvergr_2_FFXI_8295.png


Fuck this guy.
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ShadowSoldier89 said:
at some point the danger of the world in MMOs was lost, and my interest in MMOs went with it


this man knows whats up!
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Was there ever a stream or some kind of archived video of that? I also recall some video Square released of I think Absolute Virtue and a comically easy way to beat it compared to what players were putting themselves through at the time.

XI is one of the most extreme examples. Well---was. It was tamed down significantly when I revisited a few years ago. Where WoW set the bar for what most MMOs have been since 2005, EQ did so before that and XI was probably one of the most abusive/prominent clones of that ilk. Even for XI back in 2004-2006, the most valuable commodity I had was time/scheduling and not exactly skill (especially concerning just leveling to cap), which is more or less the same way these days, just on a much smaller scale.

I'd simply like to see more modern horizontal progression (which XI had), which would at least be closer to what OP is describing. Whether or not there is a way to design that successfully in the current landscape is the discussion worth having.
 
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