True, but what then? Continue the fight and risk even more lives? It's not like Superman had anywhere to put him that could contain him. It also wasn't just about that particular family. Zod outright said his sole mission at that point was to kill everybody. Even if Superman attempted to take the fight elsewhere, without killing him, Zod would just continue trying to kill more people. Superman even attempting to save lives leaves Zod open to kill other people. Zod is a trained soldier. The longer the fight goes on the more accustom to his powers he gets which would likely result in Superman's death and the extinction of the human race.
Batman vs Superman: World's Finest Three-Year Wait
- Thread starter Marion Cobretti
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True, but what then? Continue the fight and risk even more lives? It's not like Superman had anywhere to put him that could contain him. It also wasn't just about that particular family. Zod outright said his sole mission at that point was to kill everybody. Even if Superman attempted to take the fight elsewhere, without killing him, Zod would just continue trying to kill more people. Superman even attempting to save lives leaves Zod open to kill other people. Zod is a trained soldier. The longer the fight goes on the more accustom to his powers he gets which would likely result in Superman's death and the extinction of the human race.
you guys seem pretty worked up about the whole death thing. need some levity
YOU DONT SAY THIS TO YOUR SUPERIOR OFFICER
Major Gripex
Member
you guys seem pretty worked up about the whole death thing. need some levity
This thread has worked 0 days without neck snapping argument.
Well said, one of the many reasons I dislike MOS (also the whole Pa Kent, the dog, and hurricane nonsense). Also, if I want to see someone become judge, jury, and executioner then I would watch Judge Dredd.
Here is an excerpt from Grant Morrison regarding MOS, and I wholeheartedly agree with him:
Of course you would. We have proof of it. If Zod was willing to tolerate New Krypton by any means, he had a ship with Kryptonians of both sexes and a geneticist on board for 33 years. Zod's conception of Krypton was narrow. It didn't include Kryptonians born of natural birth or Kryptonians created without the Codex. It also didn't include a super-human society he couldn't control. He'd rather Krypton go extinct than resort to natural birth, so what makes you think he'd rather Krypton survive without his rule?
Actually, the only Kryptonians other than Faora and Nam-Ek who leave a dropship are the ones who drag Zod's back to the Black Zero. That's it. The consent issue is Zod requiring them to stay on the Black Zero and breath the depowering Kryptonian atmosphere. We know that the Kryptonians on the Black Zero aren't powered because Lois is able to kill two, the doors are able to stop them, and she kicks one off of herself to escape. Zod severely limited the scope of the Kryptonians allowed to access super-powers.
The fact that he leads from the front, is himself a traitor, the fact that the prison ship preexisted Zod's coup attempt meaning not all the prisoners were revolutionaries, and the fact that he fielded 5 of them max.
Exactly the point. His plan required the Genesis Chamber too. Zod's deployment clearly shows he believes the Black Zero to be functionally invulnerable, so how is it madness to bring a critical chess piece to your fortress?
He chose to start the World Engine to kill Kal-El and stop any human retaliation once he knew humanity couldn't destroy the Codex to stop him and the Codex would still be available after Kal-El died. That's why he orders the deployment of the World Engine right after asking whether it can be retrieved from a dead Kal-El. I don't know where you got the idea that Zod would know or believe that Superman could stop the World Engine when even Superman didn't know.
Answered above and you've got the sequence wrong. Zod is downing the C-17's escorts and about the blow up the C-17 itself when Superman crosses the planet to save it. Even assuming Zod knew where Superman was, he wasn't going towards Superman. Moreover, this is a ridiculous protest because the two of them fly into geosynchronous orbit and back to Earth in seconds. There's no place on Earth that Zod could safely avoid Superman.
Marion Cobretti
Member
Even Grant Morrison thinks he's a credible Superman.
What more do you need?
What more do you need?
evil solrac v3.0
Member
but that's what Zod was leading him towards. he has Superman's powers and is willing to kill. the one means of stopping him (the Phantom drive) is gone, the terraforming machine that could weaken him is gone.
what else can Superman do? take him up to space? that didn't work? take him away from populated centers? he'll just come back. jail? what jail can hold him?
it would also be very hokey and predictable to have Superman pull some miracle out of his ass and be able to defeat Zod without ultimately having to kill him. because one of them was going to end up dead.
well by all means mention them.
we had a good run.
that whole argument is non-sense.
is it immoral to kill someone that wants to kill you? or your family? or a stranger? is he saying that only the authorites have the power to kill?
a soldier killing someone whether another soldier or a civilian doesn't make it moral.
his argument is full of holes and he's full of shit. no one is asking that Superman be a bloodthirsty vigilante, we are merely arguing that in this instance, against Zod he didn't have many, if any, choice at all and to say otherwise is nonsense. well, at least I am arguing that.
? The Kryptonians with him were apart of his crew. Apart of the coup attempt.
The only prisoners on the ship were part of the coup attempt. There is no dialog in the film that says otherwise.
In fact when Zod first talks with Superman it implies the exact opposite of what you are saying.
? Don't fully understand this.
There are 11 penis pods lifting into the prison ship .
Poodlestrike
Banned
I think you're misapplying Morrison's argument; he's speaking more generally about people wishing for killer superheroes. MOS Supes is more a mild example of his problems with that, but he goes out of his way to say that it's a credible portrayal of the character, so clearly it's not a fundamental issue with the character like some are making it out to be.
FWIW, I do think that he's right in the general sense. People getting enamored with killer heroes is what led to the 90's comic book scene, and I don't think anybody's hankering for a repeat of that
Jor-El tells us he designed the ship. Zod is convicted after killing Jor-El. That means the prison ship pre-existed Zod's coup attempt and wasn't purpose built to hold the revolutionaries. There would be no reason to design or build a prison ship (particularly if resources were scarce) before Zod if they didn't have convicts to imprison. Therefore not all the prisoners were from Zod's failed revolution.
The Kryptonians on the ship do not have powers. Zod only allowed a select few to leave the ship. If he trusted them, he'd have no reason not to let them all come off the ship. The fact that he didn't field all- or more- Kryptonians shows he didn't trust them to have powers. Zod does "trust" the Kryptonians while they don't have powers because then he's still their military superior.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
nah, let's be honest here. If Snyder and crew decided that Superman kills the villain at the end of every movie, the average audience isn't gonna give a shit.
That's the conclusion you wanted and you're entitled to that. It's not what I wanted though and it by no means is the only movie we could have gotten with Zod. What I wanted may have disappointed you as much as MoS disappointed me. Such is life. It's moronic to say though the script absolutely had to be written the way it was written.
Zod wasn't clearly physically stronger than Clark and was at a positional disadvantage. Clark could have simply flown up, or to the side, or almost any direction, really. He could have covered Zod's eyes with his invulnerable hands. He could have used his own optic breams to blow a hole in the wall so the civilians could have escaped. Or, better yet, the family could have just run out of the corner. The scene was idiotic.
If you want people to drop the topic, you're going to have to accept that a lot of people did not like it for valid reasons.
Schweinehund
Member
I'd be okay with this if he threw one into the sun from earth.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Doomsday is in BVS right? He's definitely gonna be killed. Hell if he's in the movie the plot will probably revolve around Superman learning it's ok to kill
Didn't Morrison have Superman kill some people in Final Crisis though?
Does that really count even if it happens? Doomsday cannot actually be killed. Not permanently anyways.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
I think it depends on the power level of the villain. Lex for example poses little threat to humanity, so people would take notice of his murder. If its lets say Starro, ain't no one gonna bat an eye at Supes throwing him into the sun.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Technically speaking, Doomsday can't fly, Supes can dump him on Venus.
It's not out of character. He will occasionally kill someone incredibly powerful and dangerous as a last resort.
Is there like... a huge influx of Kryptonians when they arrive to earth to support this? Because there is literally nothing to support this.
A prison ship design preexisting doesn't matter, at all, since it is something banished to the phantom zone for eternity anyway (or hundreds of years, whatever).
I'm willing to go with your reasoning on why Zod would call Louis to his ship despite there being no reason for it and no explanation in the film, at all, because it's such a stand out "why?" moment. but this? Can't do it.
So instead of going with the obvious, that there has to be people running the ship. Which is why they all weren't on earth at the same time. It's trust issues..... Again..... with nothing in the film to support this.
For fuck sake the first JJ Star Trek managed to show a grunt questioning the big bad, and that was small. There is not even something that tiny in MoS.
googleplex
Member
This is ridiculous. Even if we concede that Zod wasn't as strong or as powerful as Clark. Zod was a trained and Breed warrior and he was getting stronger by the moment soon he woudl have been as storng or stronger then Clark. Zod was not going to be stopped unless someone put him down and the only one strong enough to do it was Clark. Period.
Cover his eyes??? Really. Zod would have leveled the planet to kill clark because Zod's genetic programming wouldn't allow him to do anything else. It's ridiculous to be bitching about the neck snapping because Superman LITERALLY had no other options.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Batman - "Hey Superman the big grey bone monster is smashing things"
Superman - "I can't kill! it goes against my princi..."
Batman - "CGI, won't show up in the next movie"
Superman - lol ok
Superman - "I can't kill! it goes against my princi..."
Batman - "CGI, won't show up in the next movie"
Superman - lol ok
broncobuster
Banned
Wonder Woman will twirl in, twirl Doomsday's head, and twirl out before Superman and Batman nag her about the sanctity of life.
Read further back, I'm not arguing whether or not superman had to kill Zod to stop him (that's a completely different argument). The logistics of that specific scene though don't support the notion that he had to kill Zod to save the family in immediate danger.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Also lets not forget that Lois has killed more Kryptonians than Clark
I have no idea what you're trying to say. I'm pretty sure the Council didn't just let Jor-El build the Black Zero for fun. It was built as a prison, meaning they had people to imprison. Thus Zod's number was only added to those already imprisoned.
I think there's less to support your position. The ship is clearly autonomously operated insofar as the imprisonment is concerned. If the ship needed operation then there would be talk of jailers and a preexisting crew to deal with after their escape. Zod had enough forces to attempt a coup. We don't know how many were jailed with Zod, but there were clearly enough aboard to play with Lois during her escape. Considering each Kryptonian on Earth is a major force multiplier and the people chasing Lois weren't sweating abandoning their posts, my position seems better supported than yours.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
no, that's not what I "wanted" where the hell do you get that from? I didn't want anything other than to go see MoS and I did, last year when it came out in the summer.
what a ridiculous argument this is now.
what's on screen is what I got, what we all got. this isn't even worth arguing. you're hell bent on not accepting that Superman can kill because then he's not inspiring enough. I keep trying to argue what was shown on screen and you want to argue hypotheticals of your ideal Superman and anything short of that is garbage.
to address your second point, he was as strong. the fight starts with getting stronger by the second. in Smallville he was being overwhelmed by sounds, and X-Ray vision. towards the end of the fight in Metropolis he had gained flight and heat vision, a few more minutes and he would have been invulnerable.
when Superman used his heat vision on the big Kryptonian guy in Smallville it burned him and Faora bad. the same would have happened to Superman. the heat vision would have just gone thru his hand.
if Superman had used his heat to (LOL) blow a hole in the wall so the civilians could escape, he risks harming them and risks Zod getting loose again.
and not to mention we still have hundreds of people around that train station. is he going to blow holes in the wall for them too? personally fly them out?
and to address your third point, go make your own movie then.
but Doomsday can jump very far and can just latch onto a comet or something.
That Zod is never seen showing overt distrust of his crew is enough to dispel the idea that he was afraid of unloyal prisoners. And if we're going to assume just for the sake of argument that you're right, it's pretty piss poor writing to keep the fact from being shown to the audience and to depend on a flimsy and convoluted inference.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Then it's literally cosmic Roulette, the comet would have to come close enough to earth for him to make the jump
It ends up being the same argument though. Threatening innocents is Zod's ultimate tactical advantage, which he had not resorted to until this moment. Now that the threshold is crossed, if Zod fully exploits that advantage, that family and everyone else is eventually dead.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
weird everyone brings up the John Byrne Zod death and not the Russian Zod death
Let's talk about this instead: Cinema Sins How to make a ZACK SNYDER film.
That doesn't absolve the scene from being contrived though. Like I said, if you want to argue he had to kill Zod in the end to save everyone, whatever, that's a different argument. He didn't have to kill Zod to save that family in that specific moment though.
Not really a fan of the guy who hosts these, wish they'd just use the regular narrator.
Why are you assuming there was only ever 1 built.
>_<
You only need jailers for conscious prisoners.
Having a prison ship programed to fly into the phantom zone and, I assume, shut down all non important power and resources whilst in there, is a bit different than constant maintenance, logistics ect.. while traveling around the universe. I mean they were tinkering with the phantom drive to get to earth after all.
Yes they were playing with Louis. The prisoner.
wat
Wanting "overt" things and disdaining inference sounds more like spoon-feeding.
Kryptonians are oblique as a race. It would be very odd, uncharacteristic, and a show of weakness for Zod to have a moment to talk about his fears of disloyalty. Rather, if he did have such fears, the film portrays it perfectly because he shows no hint of it except for his actions.
And what, pray tell, is wrong about that? I've already said you're entitled to like what we got. People can't disagree with your impeccable taste, now? A lot of people didn't like MoS for perfectly reasonable reasons. Get over it.
HAH! I'm going to assume for your sake that you're pretty young.
Why would you assume otherwise for a planet dying for resources?
The "tinkering" was already done and what enabled their tour of the colonies. There's nothing done on the Black Zero while in our Solar System that the autonomous systems didn't also do on Krypton, except spin up the World Engine, and clearly not every member of the crew was necessary for that.
Including the Kryptonians playing with Lois.
With what the armor protects against I'm not even sure they died.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Well the one that got shot in the face sure ain't getting up
It's not one or the other. You're building a false dichotomy.
The film does such a good job of avoiding Zod's fear of mutiny because such concerns are never once addressed! Ever! No one ever shows any hints of disloyalty.
Not really, you're building a straw man that it could be communicated the way you wanted it to be. Zod doesn't talk about any of his fears or concerns. Yet we know for a fact he has interests and goals. I see no reason for him to open up about this one any more than he does about the other ones.
What I'm saying is there are degrees of subtlety between getting zero concrete evidence of crew disloyalty and being spoonfed exposition.
Because it's a space traveling species with the capabilities of traveling to other solar systems (don't care if not anymore, doesn't matter) and terraforming other worlds?
Because despite the planet dying for resources there was a huge battle with a bunch of ships flying around?
Why would you assume the ship (and many of them) couldn't of been built before planet resources started becoming huge problem?
They need people to tap earth communications correct? Who the fuck else knows what they needed them on the ship for... What they NEVER even hint at... AT ALL, is there being any, ANY kind of dissent amongst the crew.
Also.
Those look like maned stations.
What I'm saying is that's a straw man to have some hypothetical communication because the one we got isn't enough for you. By its definition "subtlety" would not and could not be "concrete evidence!" Thus, we have the subtle evidence that we do have and it paints a picture of someone who trusts a limited few with power.
If there's a better rationalization, I'm open to it, but so far the only alternatives offered are that every single Kryptonians was indispensably occupied or this must be an error because we say so.
When construing ambiguity, it is always done in favor of the film not having plot holes if there's a viable answer. Then, if there are multiple viable answers, you pick the one more likely. In this case, there's nothing forcing use to construe a plot hole and a viable alternative has yet to be proposed.
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