I ordered a DLP retroprojection TV (Sagem Axium HD-D45 with a HD2+ chip) last week end. I'll get it on friday. I really didn't went any up/down conversion to happen with the 720p games on X360 and PS3, so a true 720p TV seemed like a good idea. I don't like this 1280x768 LCD TV trend, what's the point in having 68 more lines?
HDTV 720p/1080i -- What's with this "UPCONVERSION" sh*t?
- Thread starter Shawn
- Start date
Nope, but it has DVI with HDCP so it's ok. I really really looked everywhere, and this was about the only TV that had all the features I wanted. I'd have prefered a true HDMI input, but then the only models I found with HD2+ chip would not have fit into my setup.mrklaw said:
Yeah I know it's the same thingmrklaw said:
The only Sagem set I see on the comet site is the one I bought :
http://www.comet.co.uk/comet/html/cache/169_237515.html
Yah I also want a bigger tv.. I allready have a six years old WEGA 32" widescreen and would love to have HDTV when the nextgen systems come out. Btw can a US PS3 with HDMI work on an europan tv that has HDMI in? There isnt any weird restriction right? same with component right?
mrklaw gets it Its a very mathematical method to get the extra detail and is accurate in many ways. Which is why it looks good. Even cheaper tv like LG have their version.
From their new HD plasma featureset:
"* A new, improved version of LG’s XD-Engine chip, which converts low-resolution analog signals to high-definition levels, as well as enhancing edges and improving noise reduction."
Good feature to have.
Should be fine. Chances are if it has HDMI in Europe it'll handle pretty much everything if not everything. No CRT has HDMI here in the UK and CRT are being scaled down.
Its a very mathematical method to get the extra detail and is accurate in many ways. Which is why it looks good. Even cheaper tv like LG have their version.From their new HD plasma featureset:
"* A new, improved version of LG’s XD-Engine chip, which converts low-resolution analog signals to high-definition levels, as well as enhancing edges and improving noise reduction."
Good feature to have.
Shompola said:
Should be fine. Chances are if it has HDMI in Europe it'll handle pretty much everything if not everything. No CRT has HDMI here in the UK and CRT are being scaled down.
Btw something worth mentioning: If you want to watch TV channels (old school PAL or NTSC) on your brand new LCD/DLP TV, the type of deinterlacer/scaler used is VERY important. It really makes an incredible quality difference when you compare the same channel between a cheap scaler, and a Faroudja DCDi one for example (especially for smooth movements). It also makes a big difference if you want to use an older console system with no progressive output.
I can't say how important it is enough.
I can't say how important it is enough.
HD2+ is the type of optical semiconductor used in the DLP projection system. There are 3 types of DLP chips available on the market (that I know of), HD2, HD2+ is a better version of this one with a much better contrast ratio (my dlp set has a 3000:1 ratio, quite excellent for a projection TV), and HD3 is the latest one to be used in cheaper TVs (usually with a 1500:1 ratio).Shompola said:
The deinterlacer in this TV set is of course the DCDi one, take a look at this article about it :
http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_335.html
The motion adaptative algorithmn is about the same as what I use when I deinterlace captured console footage on my PC.
HD2/HD2+/HD3 are optical semiconductors used only for DLP systems. See http://www.dlp.com/ for more informations.Shompola said:
Here are the dimensions of the set :
1060 (about 1200 with the detachable speakers) x 792 x 339 mm
Weight: about 30 kg
Compared to my 70 kg Sony monster TV ...
Oracle Dragon
Member
mrklaw said:
Ok, that part Im not getting. Why would the X360 simply have a scaler in it? Thats not how the current Xbox works. If you have any games for your Xbox (if you have an Xbox to, heh) that do true 720p (Amped 2, Soul Calibur II) try it out. It has nothing to do with "scaling" an already existing image.. it is EXACTLY the same thing as changing the resolution on your video card.
So I don't see how that is "not displaying the original image". Its like running Battlefield 2 at 800x600 because your video card is older, and people telling you "well your not seeing the REAL image." Of course you are! Because it is being rendered at that resolution, and there are textures and other game assets that have been produced to run at that resolution. At 800x600 you are seeing everything you are supposed to. Of course it doesnt look as good as a higher resolution image; but your not missing anything either. The higher resolution image has MORE information, that the 800x600 one doesn't. This is quite different from simple scaling. If you took a screenshot of your 800x600 game, and resized it to 1024x768, would it look as good as someone RUNNING the game at 1024x768? Of course not.
I did this on my father-in-laws new 60" Sony LCD Grand Wega. It scales every image up/down to be at 720p. I told the Xbox in its settings "My TV doesnt do 720p, only 480p". I popped in Amped2, and of course it is a 480p image that is upscaled to 720p by the TV... and it doesnt look all that hot. Now I go back to the Xbox settings, and tell it "My TV does do 720p". Put Amped2 back in, and its being rendered INTERNALLY on the Xbox at 720p; the TV gets a true 720p signal, no conversion is done, and it looks FANTASTIC. You can try the same process with Soul Calibur II. Amped2, its easier to tell the difference, because when you change resolutions, things like your score, goals achieved, etc, move around to new places on the screen. Soul Calibur II you see a big, BIG difference in the quality of the fighters, but everything else looks pretty much identical, so its not as obvious. Unless you play it a lot, and then you will see the difference in the fighters right away.
If you have either of those two games, try it out. You will see the difference between true 720p, and your PP2 on your TV. I'd be interested to hear the results, as I have never seen this PP2 tech on display personally... if one is in my area I should go check it out.
Bebpo said:
Yes, via svideo. Look fine to me. Probably better than the previous 32" Widescreen CRT I had ,as there is no flicker on my LCD. You don't really get extra detail though, as there aren't the subtle colour variations to work with. So it pretty much just looks like a PS1 game ( doesn't magically look super hires)
I think a lot of this 'looks shit' is because your HD sets are being used to watch HD. Naturally when you look at SD stuff its much lower res so it'll look poor.
As Blim said though, the key is a good scaler. The difference between a good one and a crap one is night and day.
Oracle,
going from what has been said about X360 so far, games will run at 720p. Then you set what your display is in the dashboard, and the x360 will convert the output accordingly. That is different to how Xbox runs right now (actually changes the resolution of the games).
So if you have a 720p set, the x360 will output 720p. No scaling
If you have a 1080i set, the x360 will take the 720p game and convert it internally to 1080i, and output that to your TV.
Likewise if you have an SD set, it will downconvert the 720p image to 480i.
going from what has been said about X360 so far, games will run at 720p. Then you set what your display is in the dashboard, and the x360 will convert the output accordingly. That is different to how Xbox runs right now (actually changes the resolution of the games).
So if you have a 720p set, the x360 will output 720p. No scaling
If you have a 1080i set, the x360 will take the 720p game and convert it internally to 1080i, and output that to your TV.
Likewise if you have an SD set, it will downconvert the 720p image to 480i.
The only person qualified to talk about the picture quality on a real 1080p set here is the only person I know on here who has a high end 1080p Qualia 006 - kleegamefan.
I am also pretty sure he has access a BRD-RE drive via his dealer, and thus can comment on the difference between 720p and 1080p on his set.
My 2 cents is this. I went and looked at the new Aquos 45" 1080p that was recently released here in Japan. It was sitting next to a 720p set. They were running 720p signals. The 1080p set looked better. This isnt even considering the same set in a different corner of the store that had a sony blu-ray drive hooked up to it. That was insane.
Regardless of whether he is right or not, Shogmaster runs around any technical thread like a coked out circuit city salesman, so Ill wait for the no-bullshit answer.
I am also pretty sure he has access a BRD-RE drive via his dealer, and thus can comment on the difference between 720p and 1080p on his set.
My 2 cents is this. I went and looked at the new Aquos 45" 1080p that was recently released here in Japan. It was sitting next to a 720p set. They were running 720p signals. The 1080p set looked better. This isnt even considering the same set in a different corner of the store that had a sony blu-ray drive hooked up to it. That was insane.
Regardless of whether he is right or not, Shogmaster runs around any technical thread like a coked out circuit city salesman, so Ill wait for the no-bullshit answer.
Oracle Dragon
Member
mrklaw said:
I dont think that they said "All X360 games will run at 720p". I'm pretty sure they said "All X360 games will support a minimum of 720p". Thats a big difference. If the game is rendered internally at whatever resolution you select, then there is no scaling involved. If you can set the game to render internally at the native resolution on your TV, you will get the best looking image possible.
One of the biggest reasons this is important, is because everyone is worried that if they buy a 720p set, their 1080p games in the future will look bad on it. But it doesnt matter... because if you can tell that 1080p game on the X360/PS3 to be rendered at 720p in the console BEFORE that signal is sent to your TV.. then there is NO SCALING. You will get a true 720p signal and it will look very nice on your TV. Odds are very good that it would look BETTER than if you sent that 1080p resolution, and let your TV take it down to 720p for you.
Ultimately, we don't know how it is going to work. There are no concrete details about it at all. We will just have to wait and see what happens when people start getting their new X360's. But I have a very hard time believing that the console will simple "scale' the already rendered 720p image. For one thing, they would have to include hardware to do that, and that would add unnecessary cost to the console. For another, it would look WORSE than the superior (and free) method of having the console render it at a different resolution. If MS is so big on this "HD Era" thing, then they are going to want their games to look as good as possible. Just by the nature of the console itself, the hardware that produces the best looking results also comes at no extra cost.
Oracle Dragon
Member
tetsuoxb said:
What was showing on the sets?
tetsuoxb said:
The argument for or against 720p/1080i vs. 1080p isn't one of quality. It's one of cost, practicality, and content. 1080p will cost more, as all new tech does; and content will be as rare as hens teeth in the near term.
Oh, and upscaled content does not look better than downscaled content on ANY given scaler. Furthermore, there's no way in 50 hells that either method trumps viewing content at a display's native resolution.
BTW, here's a primer on scaling:
Intelligent Video Scaling
too... much... information...
isn't there ANY kind of hdtv out there that can display 480p, 720p AND 1080i NATIVELY? i don't understand it... don't computer monitors do this? is it THAT difficult for a tv to do this? is it that the technology doesn't exist for a company to make a sub-$1,000 tv to display 480p, 720p and 1080i natively???
all i ask is 100% reproduction of the video signal from the source (next-gen console) to the display (hdtv).
why does this whole issue seem so difficult? what's the problem??
i had thought that shopping for an hdtv for my future next-gen console would be an enjoyable process. now, after going through this thread, i'm getting the impression that it's going to be a daunting nightmare.
isn't there ANY kind of hdtv out there that can display 480p, 720p AND 1080i NATIVELY? i don't understand it... don't computer monitors do this? is it THAT difficult for a tv to do this? is it that the technology doesn't exist for a company to make a sub-$1,000 tv to display 480p, 720p and 1080i natively???
all i ask is 100% reproduction of the video signal from the source (next-gen console) to the display (hdtv).
why does this whole issue seem so difficult? what's the problem??
i had thought that shopping for an hdtv for my future next-gen console would be an enjoyable process. now, after going through this thread, i'm getting the impression that it's going to be a daunting nightmare.
'Shawn said:too... much... information...
isn't there ANY kind of hdtv out there that can display 480p, 720p AND 1080i NATIVELY? i don't understand it... don't computer monitors do this? is it THAT difficult for a tv to do this? is it that the technology doesn't exist for a company to make a sub-$1,000 tv to display 480p, 720p and 1080i natively???
Unfortunately, no. Don't forget about bulb/lamp technology in some of these sets, too. It's the one thing keeping me away from a DLP set at the moment. I'm reading most bulbs last about 2000-4000 hours and I don't want to spend 300 bucks on a new bulb every couple years.
Crazymoogle
Member
Damn Sony products...PR for the new Wega 3LCD set is out today...that 42", true 720p native resolution setup is mighty tempting.
Crazymoogle said:
Heh, funny you should mention this. I just read the thread at the avsforum about the new Sony LCD Grand Wega sets. The current sets have dropped like a rock in price, but I'm holding out for the new sets. Do you have any new info to post? I waded through this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517862&page=1&pp=30
Mid August release for the new Sony LCD sets. This series has shot to the top of my buying list. I can get a bigger screen than the XS 955 (42 or 50 inch versus 34), with the 42 inch going to be around the same price after I factor in a stand. Plus the native 720P support is tempting. It's either this or hold out for Sonys new SXRD technology. But the starting price for that is going to be about 4000. :/
sonycowboy
Member
Crazymoogle said:
I was going to post something regarding this.
It should be < $2,000 and seems to be a bump up from current rear projection LCD sets. The 42" won't be out for a few weeks, but the other sets are available immediately.
Has anyone seen them or heard much?
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050622/law061.html?.v=17
Sonycowboy read that thread to the avsforum I linked. 
The Grand Wega LCD rear projection sets are pretty highly regaded. You can find the current 42" model on sale at bestbuy for 1899 lately. The new 42 inch model is gonna have a street price of $2299, but I expect that to go down in a couple months. I'm waiting for the new model because it is supposed to have better contrast ratios and increased black levels.
The new 42A10 model also has a VGA input on it. Which will be freaking sweet to hooking up the Xbox360 to it. Especially with true native 720P support and not the LCD 768P standard which the A20 line still has. If I get this set, I'll probably end up hooking up my X360 to the VGA input and PS3 to the HDMI input. The new A10 models seem more appealing than the new A20 line.
I'm trying to look up the number of HDMI inputs on the 42A10 and 50A10 models. I think they are going to have two on them to match the PS3. I'm pretty sure all new Sony HDTV sets will have 2 HDMI inputs from now on 'cause of the PS3. Don't hold me to this because I'm not 100 percent sure.
The Grand Wega LCD rear projection sets are pretty highly regaded. You can find the current 42" model on sale at bestbuy for 1899 lately. The new 42 inch model is gonna have a street price of $2299, but I expect that to go down in a couple months. I'm waiting for the new model because it is supposed to have better contrast ratios and increased black levels.
The new 42A10 model also has a VGA input on it. Which will be freaking sweet to hooking up the Xbox360 to it. Especially with true native 720P support and not the LCD 768P standard which the A20 line still has. If I get this set, I'll probably end up hooking up my X360 to the VGA input and PS3 to the HDMI input. The new A10 models seem more appealing than the new A20 line.
I'm trying to look up the number of HDMI inputs on the 42A10 and 50A10 models. I think they are going to have two on them to match the PS3. I'm pretty sure all new Sony HDTV sets will have 2 HDMI inputs from now on 'cause of the PS3. Don't hold me to this because I'm not 100 percent sure.
Shogmaster
Member
Forget about XBR960, boys. It still takes the 720p signal and rescales it to "1080i" (probably 960x540). Got confirmation of that from avs froums.
Hell if I'm paying $2200+ to play X360 games interlaced.....
Hell if I'm paying $2200+ to play X360 games interlaced.....
Shogmaster
Member
Mrbob said:I think the new Sony Rear Projection LCD models are calling your name!I'd like to go a little bigger than 34" too. Plus the LCD sets weigh like 75-90 pounds where the XBR 34" is like 220 pounds! :lol
LCD RPs to play games? I'd rather fork out my eyeballs. It's 720p DLP RP action WAY before LCD projections. You can get 720p 46" DLPs for $2200 easily.
Riskbreaker
Member
If I purchase a HDTV in two years would 1080P be standard?
Shogmaster
Member
Mrbob said:You need to do some reading up on the 42" Grand Wega Sony LCD RPTV sets before dissing them in games. The new line will be even better. You could get a 46" samsung DLP that'll lag quite well in games.
Someone needs to get up to speed on new Sammy DLPs. They haven't had post processing lag models since the early models. The newer sets like my friend's 46" Sammy are 60fps superfast goodness. Something most LCDs just cannot do with full color spectrum.
No matter how much LCDs advance, they just can't match DLPs vibrance and fast responce at full color depth.
Riskbreaker said:
You can buy 1080p 50" DLP set for $5000 right now. The only problem is 90% of next gen games will be scaled up from 720p on those sets (interpolation = worse image quality).
again (from earlier in the thread) interlacing is not inherently bad. what is bad are the artifacts from the process that become apparent on LOWER RESOLUTION displays, such as NTSC or old 320x240 displays interlacing to 640x400.Shogmaster said:
on higher resolution displays (aka HDTV), the interlacing artifacts don't exist because the detail is so much higher making it more difficult for the ommission of every other scanline to distort the picture.
Not to mention both the real and effective resolutions of 1080i are higher.
the only real advantage of 720p are more bits on bit-starved delivery methods (ATSC DTV) and higher framerates on video game systems, though both come at the price of lower real and effective resolution.
Crazymoogle
Member
Shogmaster said:
Too bad I'm still seeing rainbows on floor models :\
Shogmaster said:
Yes those color wheel rainbows on all DLP sets are nice!
After doing a ton of reading, I noticed every TV has their set of problems. There is no such thing as a perfect set. I may go the DLP route yet too (I like the Pedestal Samsung model), but am waiting to see the new Grand Wega RPTV LCD set first.
I've read very nice things about the current Grand Wega RPTV LCD sets with gaming. The new sets will be better. With the PS3 coming it is in Sonys best interest to show off their family line of products the best they can. They like to make sure all their stuff works great together.
Shogmaster
Member
Crazymoogle said:
Rainbows are only noticable if you actively look for it. I have to bob my head side to side continuously to notice them. Normally, that's not what people do when they watch TV.
borghe said:
I noticed interlacing on most HDTV sets i looked at CES this year. Especially those with fast action. Trust me, it's still a problem at that res (especially if the set is big).
It' less than 12% difference. I'd rather have progressive image update thanks.
With only 8 channels of HD programming available on my cable service, 90% of the use for the HDTV for me will be games, so there you go.
Crazymoogle
Member
Shogmaster said:Rainbows are only noticable if you actively look for it. I have to bob my head side to side continuously to notice them. Normally, that's not what people do when they watch TV.
I dunno, there's been a few where I just have problems looking at the screen even from a standing position. It's sort of like staring at a PC monitor at 70hz or less.
Any DLP TVs you could recommend under the 2K ceiling though? I should really go and look at some newer sets alongside this 3LCD stuff. The dynamic iris stuff carried over from the Qualia is very interesting too.
Shogmaster
Member
Crazymoogle said:
There's a bunch of Samsung and Toshiba 42 and 46" sets for under $2000 online. B and H Photo had bunch of them.
Crazymoogle
Member
Not sure what the point of online ordering a big TV would be...in any case I was hoping for a possible model recommendation since strictly recommending a brand doesn't turn out well very often.
This is from CES, but you can watch some videos on the new SONY LCD sets here:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6451_7-5716805-1.html?tag=bnav
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6451_7-5716805-1.html?tag=bnav
Shogmaster
Member
Crazymoogle said:
Cause it will save you tons of money, even with shipping charges.
This Sammy's an HDMI update on my buddy's (his is DVI). It's $2500 at Best Buy before tax. It's $1995 at B and H Photo, with around $250 for shipping (no tax if you are not in NY).
Crazymoogle
Member
Shogmaster said:
But what happens with servicing and support? Does fedex come and do the heavy lifting for you?
BH Photo has a good service rating:
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1914.html
I don't know how well BHPHOTO handles returns and service though.
If you are looking at sets, I'd take your Xbox/PS2/ whatever to Best Buy and try out the set you want. See how it plays before you buy it. Also, getting it from a local retailer with a return policy is a little nicer. Sears actually price matches online prices + shipping. So you pay a little more with tax included but you can also usually return stuff within 30 days if you don't like it at home.
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1914.html
I don't know how well BHPHOTO handles returns and service though.
If you are looking at sets, I'd take your Xbox/PS2/ whatever to Best Buy and try out the set you want. See how it plays before you buy it. Also, getting it from a local retailer with a return policy is a little nicer. Sears actually price matches online prices + shipping. So you pay a little more with tax included but you can also usually return stuff within 30 days if you don't like it at home.
Shogmaster
Member
Crazymoogle said:
B and H has some kind of servicing plan if you are interested in those.
BTW, the set is only about 80lbs.
Crazymoogle
Member
Shogmaster said:
Yeah, I was speaking figuratively, in that I would be adding shipping to the risk of unit damage, so if anything goes wrong when I get the setup, it doesn't sound easy at all to just pack it up and send it back. Even then every RMA sendin process I've been involved in rings at the back of my head, warning against ever buying something expensive online as opposed to somewhere you can drive the unit back to.
Shogmaster said:Rainbows are only noticable if you actively look for it. I have to bob my head side to side continuously to notice them. Normally, that's not what people do when they watch TV.
They may be only *noticable* if you actually look for them, but even if you aren't looking for them, they'll still give you a nasty headache after several hours.
The head bobbing thing is to see if you are susceptible. If you are, you are more likely to be affected after prolonged usage. Its a bit like CRT monitor refresh under flourescent lights.
Of course, even if you aren't affected, what about your family? Always good to check