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[Shogmaster]

Yeah, I was speaking figuratively, in that I would be adding shipping to the risk of unit damage, so if anything goes wrong when I get the setup, it doesn't sound easy at all to just pack it up and send it back. Even then every RMA sendin process I've been involved in rings at the back of my head, warning against ever buying something expensive online as opposed to somewhere you can drive the unit back to.

Hey man, it's your $$$. Just for a maybe, you are willing spend $500 more, hey power to ya. And it's not like B and H is a mom and pop fly by night operation.... If something goes wrong with delivery, they or FedEx will own up to that, and if the unit has problem out of the box, they have very good RMA process.

 

[HokieJoe]

You need to do some reading up on the 42" Grand Wega Sony LCD RPTV sets before dissing them in games. The new line will be even better. You could get a 46" samsung DLP that'll lag quite well in games.

At this time, I have to agree with Shog WRT RP LCD's- poor relative contrast ratios compared to RP DLP sets. What I keep waiting for is for Sony and Panasonic to introduce the dynamic iris tech they use in their front projectors into their RP LCD's.

I'm pretty sure Sony's Qualia RP LCD has a dynamic iris along with their dark screen tech. Do any of the new Wega's have a dynamic iris by chance?

 

[Shogmaster]

They may be only *noticable* if you actually look for them, but even if you aren't looking for them, they'll still give you a nasty headache after several hours.

The head bobbing thing is to see if you are susceptible. If you are, you are more likely to be affected after prolonged usage. Its a bit like CRT monitor refresh under flourescent lights.

Of course, even if you aren't affected, what about your family? Always good to check

Seriously man, none of the people that watched the set at my friend's place in the year and a half ever mentioned seeing rainbows or having headaches. That's literally close to fifty different people.

I think this rainbow stuff is DLP detractors making mountain out of molehill.

 

[Mrbob]

Does anyone read my posts?

LAS VEGAS, March 8, 2005 - Building upon its market leadership position in the fast-growing micro-display category, Sony Electronics today unveiled four new Grand WEGA high-definition TV models ranging in size from 42 to 60 inches.

These rear projection micro-displays were clearly designed to deliver the ultimate high-definition experience with 3LCD technology, which generates natural color reproduction, exceptionally bright pictures and amazing detail.

Large Screen Entertainment Within Reach

The new KDF-E42A10 (42-inch) and KDF-E50A10 (50-inch) models feature an entirely new design with a thin dark black bezel, a compact body (between 14 and 16 inches deep) and, for the first time, invisible speakers located at the bottom of the set.

As a result, these new sets can be placed in areas that previously may have been too small. For example, the new 50-inch model can be stored in a cabinet that previously held a 42-inch television and the new 42-inch model can be stored in a space that use to house a 36-inch television.

The displays' HD picture quality comes shining through with natural color reproduction, no color breaking and exceptional brightness levels due to the 3LCD technology with 1280 x 720, native 720p resolution.

Along with Sony's WEGA EngineTM system, these new models also deliver excellent contrast with Sony's Cinema Black Pro technology. This process enables the displays' advanced iris shutter to automatically open and close according to the incoming signal level. This creates brighter whites and better contrast in dark scenes.

The other new KDF-E55A20 (55-inch) and KDF-E60A20 (60-inch) Grand WEGA models utilize a proprietary LCD Optical Engine with Sony's WEGA Engine™ system to deliver detailed picture quality from any compatible video source by minimizing the digital-to-analog conversion process. These models also incorporate 3LCD panel technology and deliver 1366 x 768, more than a native 720p resolution.

For added convenience, all four new models provide access to Sony's WEGA GATE on-screen guide, which with a push of a button enables you to perform a variety of tasks intuitively on a simple control panel. This easy to use on-screen guide provides direct access to favorite channels, external inputs and the TV menu.

To complement the picture quality these sets provide outstanding sound quality by incorporating a SRS® TruSurround® audio system.

The KDF-E42A10 and KDF-E50A10 models will be available this summer and the KDF-E55A20 and KDF-E60A20 displays will be available this spring.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Hey man, it's your $$$. Just for a maybe, you are willing spend $500 more, hey power to ya. And it's not like B and H is a mom and pop fly by night operation.... If something goes wrong with delivery, they or FedEx will own up to that, and if the unit has problem out of the box, they have very good RMA process.

That's not what I'm talking about. You've got this crazy MMD array being shipped around in a box, and nothing short of opening it up and testing it out is going to tell you if it's all in working order. Fedex won't do shit unless it's major, immediately noticeable damage, and I see B&H won't accept returns on TVs, so that means the unit has to be shipped back to the manufacturer.

Spending more money sucks, but if that buys me the ability to just take it to a BB and swap it same day, I'm not sure why I wouldn't do that. It's just too much money to leave on the table and hope for the best.

 

[Flo_Evans]

bleh.. I think the best advice is just to wait. DLPs & RP LCDs are getting better and better and dropping in price at the same time. I guess if you plan on getting a 360 at launch your timetable is abit shorter - but I will not need an HDTV till '06. I'll see what is avalible then^^

 

[Crazymoogle]

Does anyone read my posts?

Yeah, that's what the AVS thread was buzzing about too - cinema black pro / dynamic iris on the 42" model and I think one of the other three listed in the PR.

 

[Shogmaster]

Does anyone read my posts?

Black levels suck on both LCDs and DLPs compared to CRTs, so I don't care about all that. What matters is that LCDs have to drop color depth to bring you 60fps action without pixel delay. Fuck that noise....

That's not what I'm talking about. You've got this crazy MMD array being shipped around in a box, and nothing short of opening it up and testing it out is going to tell you if it's all in working order. Fedex won't do shit unless it's major, immediately noticeable damage, and I see B&H won't accept returns on TVs, so that means the unit has to be shipped back to the manufacturer.

Spending more money sucks, but if that buys me the ability to just take it to a BB and swap it same day, I'm not sure why I wouldn't do that. It's just too much money to leave on the table and hope for the best.

If the set is DOA after delivery, B and H will RMA it themselves.

 

[Mrbob]

Shog shouldn't you wait for the set to be released first before ripping it to shreds? :lol

 

[Shogmaster]

Shog shouldn't you wait for the set to be released first before ripping it to shreds? :lol

Dude, I was at CES this year. I saw ALL the new Sony LCDs, including the $10,000 Qualia projection stuff (which ironically I saw at Ceasar's Palace Sony Qualia store). LCDs still suck at fast action stuff.

 

[Crazymoogle]

If the set is DOA after delivery, B and H will RMA it themselves.

Only DOA though? What about defects?

I'll definitely consider these guys if their policy is loose enough.

 

[Shogmaster]

Only DOA though? What about defects?

I'll definitely consider these guys if their policy is loose enough.

I bought my Cintiq 18SX from them because they told me I can return the $2500 LCD monitor to them if it just had one single dead pixel. I think they'll play ball.

 

[Mrbob]

Dude, I was at CES this year. I saw ALL the new Sony LCDs, including the $10,000 Qualia projection stuff (which ironically I saw at Ceasar's Palace Sony Qualia store). LCDs still suck at fast action stuff.

Maybe you just have extremely sensitive eyes. I think you overexaggerate a bit against any other TV type that isn't DLP.

Anyway, how were the Mitsubishi DLP sets? If I go DLP this is more than likely the manufacturer I'm buying one from.

 

[borghe]

I noticed interlacing on most HDTV sets i looked at CES this year. Especially those with fast action. Trust me, it's still a problem at that res (especially if the set is big).

artifacts such as.....? you don't notice the interlacing, you notice the artifacts. I've been watching HDTV for over three years now and have never had interlacing artifacts appear to a noticeable degree (except maybe under scrutiny).

It' less than 12% difference. I'd rather have progressive image update thanks.

the actual resolution per refresh difference is 12%. however the way our eyes work we do see the full effective resolution of 1920x1080 which is in fact a 125% resolution difference.

With only 8 channels of HD programming available on my cable service, 90% of the use for the HDTV for me will be games, so there you go.

yes, there you go, you would prefer lower resolution just to get rid of indistinguishable interlace artifacts that don't exist.

people who bitch about supposed interlacing artifacts on 1080i images are full of shit, plain and simple. in hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours of TV watching on a 55" screen I haven't come across any ever on native 1080i content.

 

[sonycowboy]

Shog shouldn't you wait for the set to be released first before ripping it to shreds? :lol

Shog is a force of nature and deals only in absolutes. New information isn't necessary as he's already knows all.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I bought my Cintiq 18SX from them because they told me I can return the $2500 LCD monitor to them if it just had one single dead pixel. I think they'll play ball.

That's the magic line I was waiting to hear.

I'll definitely keep them in mind if the BB tags are way out there.

 

[HokieJoe]

Does anyone read my posts?

:lol

Uhhh, sorry dude.

Well, well, it looks like the new Wega's are now in the mix for me. I need to go check them out. BTW, thanks for the pull.

 

[borghe]

for a detail to be lost in interlacing artifacts on a 55" screen the detail in question would have to be smaller than 1/40th of an inch. By way of comparison, for a detail to be lost on a 55" set with 480 lines it would only have to be 1/16th of an inch. Also because of the increased resolution, stair stepping and color artifacting are impossible on HD sets. and moire patterns won't occur unless they fall to that 1/40th of an inch number.

 

[Shogmaster]

artifacts such as.....? you don't notice the interlacing, you notice the artifacts. I've been watching HDTV for over three years now and have never had interlacing artifacts appear to a noticeable degree (except maybe under scrutiny).

The artifact is the interlacing so, let's not get hung up on wordings.

Anyways, example: I remember looking at the Ti 1080p DLP demo. None of their source was true 1080p, so they showed 1080i stuff line doubled. I could tell it was line doubled due to accessive chunkiness of the vertical res compared to the horizontal. And on 1080i TVs, fast action stuff did show the interlacing fuzzy edges. It was noticable to me. Obcourse most of these bitches were HUGE ass sets (70"), so it was probably accentuated.

the actual resolution per refresh difference is 12%. however the way our eyes work we do see the full effective resolution of 1920x1080 which is in fact a 125% resolution difference.

Most 1080i sets can't resolve anything approaching full 1920x1080 resolution. For instance most CRT HDTV sets are 800x540 boxes (some are 853x540). Even the mighty XBR960 can only do 1401 pixels horizonatlly. So when you see "1080i" shit on those CRTs, they are no where near giving you 150% resolution difference. infact, they are only giving you about 66% of 720p.

yes, there you go, you would prefer lower resolution just to get rid of indistinguishable interlace artifacts that don't exist.

They exist. Believe you me, they exist.

people who bitch about supposed interlacing artifacts on 1080i images are full of shit, plain and simple. in hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours of TV watching on a 55" screen I haven't come across any ever on native 1080i content.

Some are more sensitive to them than others. Let's just leave it at that instead of telling me I'm full of shit.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Some are more sensitive to them than others. Let's just leave it at that instead of telling me I'm full of shit.

Yet you can't see the rainbows of DLP during faster moving scenes....

 

[Shogmaster]

Yet you can't see the rainbows of DLP during faster moving scenes....

When did I say I can't? I said can notice them, but I have to do some funky things with my head in order to. :lol

 

[borghe]

The artifact is the interlacing so, let's not get hung up on wordings.

interlacing is the process. our eyes cannot visually distinguish the interlacing. after around 20ish flashes of light per second our eyes see nothing but a constant source of light. so to our eyes, the interlacing is a solid image source. what we see are the interfacts generated by interlacing, if they exist. These have existed because NTSC television produces, at most, only 240 lines of information per 60th of a second. when you divide a picture up into only 480 lines, and then eliminate half of them, it is very apparent when the other half leave on the small detail. this is where the "wording" comes from. the artifacts that manifest themselves. Stuff like stair stepping (jagged lines), moire patterns on straight tight vertical patterns (fences, stadium seating, screens, etc), color artifacting on thin diagonal lines, etc. This is what we see. It is like saying you can see sodium because you can see salt. You don't see the interlacing, you see the effects of it, and not all of the effects are equal.

Anyways, example: I remember looking at the Ti 1080p DLP demo. None of their source was true 1080p, so they showed 1080i stuff line doubled. I could tell it was line doubled due to chunkiness of the vertical res compared to the horizontal. And on 1080i TVs, fast action stuff did show the interlacing fuzzy edges. It was noticable to me. Obcourse most of these bitches were HUGE ass sets, so it was probably eccentuated.

but this no longer has to do with the quality of the 1080i source or 1080i displays. this is how good the line doubler is, something that has existed since the first NTSC line doublers back in the laser disc days.

Most 1080i sets can't resolve anything approaching full 1920x1080 resolution. For instance most CRT HDTV sets are 800x540 boxes (some are 853x540). Even the mighty XBR960 can only do 1401 pixels horizonatlly. So when you see "1080i" shit on those CRTs, they are no where near giving you 150% resolution difference. infact, they are only giving you about 66% of 720p.

whoa whoa whoa there. most CRT direct view sets maybe. projection CRTs don't have pixels per se, just scan lines. and on resolution tests most projection sets will easily hit virtually all of the 1920 horizontal pixels without much problem. my 3.5 year old Mits has no problem with a 1920x1080 test on DVE.

They exist. Believe you me, they exist.

do they exist in rare instances? yes, will you be able to distinguish them from typical viewing distances? well, considering most can't distinguish them from THX viewing distances which are closer than probably 90% of us sit, I doubt anyone can really distinguish them from further away.

Some are more sensitive to them than others. Let's just leave it at that instead of telling me I'm full of shit.

eh.. a copout.. but whatever. I just hate seeing the "I word" thrown around in layman threads as if anyone else in the thread but the "I naysayer" will ever see the supposed artifacts. you're right that I shouldn't bag on you, but you have to fess up that most won't have any idea of what you and I are talking about, and it's stupid to go scaring them as such.

and on that note, I find it pretty ammusing that you claim to see interlace artifacts without even trying yet you have to do weird things to see DLP rainbows which are very obvious to even the typical consumer in most cases.

 

[HokieJoe]

for a detail to be lost in interlacing artifacts on a 55" screen the detail in question would have to be smaller than 1/40th of an inch. By way of comparison, for a detail to be lost on a 55" set with 480 lines it would only have to be 1/16th of an inch. Also because of the increased resolution, stair stepping and color artifacting are impossible on HD sets. and moire patterns won't occur unless they fall to that 1/40th of an inch number.

Borghe, go check out these links to learn about deinterlacing- especially the first one.


http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/screenshots/index.htm

http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/screenshots/addl_screenshots.htm

http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/screenshots/IQ_screenshots.htm

http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/screenshots/HD_Screenshots.htm

http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/screenshots/Dynasty_Warrior_2_Screenshots.htm


You can learn more about deinterlacing in general Here

 

[HokieJoe]

And actually guys, I don't think line doublers are that prevalent any more. Almost everyone uses scalers now.

 

[Shogmaster]

interlacing is the process. our eyes cannot visually distinguish the interlacing. after around 20ish flashes of light per second our eyes see nothing but a constant source of light. so to our eyes, the interlacing is a solid image source. what we see are the interfacts generated by interlacing, if they exist. These have existed because NTSC television produces, at most, only 240 lines of information per 60th of a second. when you divide a picture up into only 480 lines, and then eliminate half of them, it is very apparent when the other half leave on the small detail. this is where the "wording" comes from. the artifacts that manifest themselves. Stuff like stair stepping (jagged lines), moire patterns on straight tight vertical patterns (fences, stadium seating, screens, etc), color artifacting on thin diagonal lines, etc. This is what we see. It is like saying you can see sodium because you can see salt. You don't see the interlacing, you see the effects of it, and not all of the effects are equal.

First of all, the 20 flashes thing is BS. It is common knowledge now that some people can see up to 120fps and beyond. Some get incredible headaches from flourescent lighting because they see the individual flicker. I think those things flicker faster than 80hz. I can distinguish 60~80fps easily on games, and do get headaches from flourescent lights sometimes.

Second, you are splitting hairs on interlacing again. Yes, it's the "artifacts" of interlacing. Nicely done. Nevertheless, I see it (mostly the jagged edges from fast moving objects). Good? Good.

but this no longer has to do with the quality of the 1080i source or 1080i displays. this is how good the line doubler is, something that has existed since the first NTSC line doublers back in the laser disc days.

Not entirely. I was talking about how on a progressive set, I was seeing 540 lines of data doubled up on 1080 lines to full the progressive update. 1920x540 is chunky for the vertical side.

whoa whoa whoa there. most CRT direct view sets maybe. projection CRTs don't have pixels per se, just scan lines. and on resolution tests most projection sets will easily hit virtually all of the 1920 horizontal pixels without much problem. my 3.5 year old Mits has no problem with a 1920x1080 test on DVE.

I think it's safe to say that if the folks here can afford over $1200 for a set these days, they are going with either an LCD RP or a DLP RP. CRT RP is pretty much out of picture these days. If they have less than $1200, they are going direct view CRT in most cases if not those LCD computer monitors desguised as HDTVs.

do they exist in rare instances? yes, will you be able to distinguish them from typical viewing distances? well, considering most can't distinguish them from THX viewing distances which are closer than probably 90% of us sit, I doubt anyone can really distinguish them from further away.

Don't assume everyone sits far away from their sets, even if they are pretty big. My buddy has his couch only 5' away from his 46" DLP RP.

eh.. a copout.. but whatever. I just hate seeing the "I word" thrown around in layman threads as if anyone else in the thread but the "I naysayer" will ever see the supposed artifacts. you're right that I shouldn't bag on you, but you have to fess up that most won't have any idea of what you and I are talking about, and it's stupid to go scaring them as such.

I was just speaking for my self you know. Didn't mean to scare the kiddies. The XBR960 thing was for those that did care about progressive vs interlaced since I'm not the only one that crazy.

and on that note, I find it pretty ammusing that you claim to see interlace artifacts without even trying yet you have to do weird things to see DLP rainbows which are very obvious to even the typical consumer in most cases.

Maybe his DLP set is better than most? I don't know why I have to do wierd things to see rainbows in DLPs while interlacing "artifacts" (that was for you buddy) bothers me so. The thing bout interlacing is that I don't have to bob my head to see it (well, bobbing my head would blur everything so I couldn't notice it anyways ).

 

[borghe]

deinterlacing is moot in mine and shog's discussion because we are talking about an interlaced source viewed on an interlaced device. deinterlacing artifacts are a whole new world of trouble.. well, not really, but sometimes.

and no, deinterlacers and scalers are two different things. you will always need to deinterlace an interlaced signal to display it on a progressive display. of course for HDTV where your cadence will almost always be 2:1 (unless they start send fields out of order or weird shit like that) deinterlacing shouldn't be too much of a problem, though it is still a form of image processing and thus can negatively impact the quality.

 

[borghe]

First of all, the 20 flashes thing is BS. It is common knowledge now that some people can see up to 120fps and beyond. Some get incredible headaches from flourescent lighting because they see the individual flicker. I think those things flicker faster than 80hz. I can distinguish 60~80fps easily on games, and do get headaches from flourescent lights sometimes.

proof? and FPS on a game is NOT the same as flickers of light.

Second, you are splitting hairs on interlacing again. Yes, it's the "artifacts" of interlacing. Nicely done. Nevertheless, I see it (mostly the jagged edges from fast moving objects). Good? Good.

there. you finally got it. and I would like to have you provide examples of jagged edges.. go ahead, I have a tivo and can record it.

Not entirely. I was talking about how on a progressive set, I was seeing 540 lines of data doubled up on 1080 lines to full the progressive update. 1920x540 is chunky for the vertical side.

most decent line doublers will lag the picture for 1/60th of a second and simply display the full frame twice. it creates fewer artifacts than simply doubling each field.

I think it's safe to say that if the folks here can afford over $1200 for a set these days, they are going with either an LCD RP or a DLP RP. CRT RP is pretty much out of picture these days. If they have less than $1200, they are going direct view CRT in most cases if not those LCD computer monitors desguised as HDTVs.

why is it safe to say that? CRT still looks the best out of all displays when taking into account saturation, color of black, contrast, etc.

Don't assume everyone sits far away from their sets, even if they are pretty big. My buddy has his couch only 5' away from his 46" DLP RP.

I said most, not all.

I was just speaking for my self you know. Didn't mean to scare the kiddies. The XBR960 thing was for those that did care about progressive vs interlaced since I'm not the only one that crazy.

it's great to speak for yourself, but to say things like 720p is better than 1080i without qualifying it first is misleading. IF you are susceptible to interlace artifacts, than they might offset the visual resolution of 1080i over 720p. However for most, the interlace artifacts won't ever be apparent.

3 seasons of CSI and NFL football can't be wrong.

 

[Shogmaster]

proof? and FPS on a game is NOT the same as flickers of light.

Flourescent is a better argument than games. And I don't know how I'd prove that. Maybe you can Vulcan mind meld with me or something? :lol

there. you finally got it.

I always had it. You were just being an anal retentive jackass with the wording.

and I would like to have you provide examples of jagged edges.. go ahead, I have a tivo and can record it.

Jagged edges was probably a bad description. More like frizzy edges.

most decent line doublers will lag the picture for 1/60th of a second and simply display the full frame twice. it creates fewer artifacts than simply doubling each field.

Someone should have told that to the TI guys.

why is it safe to say that? CRT still looks the best out of all displays when taking into account saturation, color of black, contrast, etc.

Don't blame me. Blame the market.

I said most, not all.

I'm not sure about even "most". More and more poeple with small spaces are getting bigger sets.

it's great to speak for yourself, but to say things like 720p is better than 1080i without qualifying it first is misleading.

I've done plenty of qualifying in the past. Not gonna do it with every damn post, just to make you happy ya know. People in this conversation is already ahead of you on this so, it's more or less you buttinginsky.

IF you are susceptible to interlace artifacts, than they might offset the visual resolution of 1080i over 720p. However for most, the interlace artifacts won't ever be apparent.

Good for those folks, but we know what we want.

3 seasons of CSI and NFL football can't be wrong.

From 12 feet away, how can you tell?

 

[Cooper]

3 seasons of CSI and NFL football can't be wrong.

From 12 feet away, how can you tell?

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with borghe. I sit about 7 feet away from my 65" native 720p DLP. I often find CBS' NFL games more striking than the 720p games broadcast by ESPN, ABC and Fox. However, there are too many other factors involved in final picture quality to simply attribute it to the resolution.

 

[8BALL]

Read a few bits of this topic, and I haven't noticed anyone actually explaining what upconverting is.

Basically, if you have a 480p source, and you have a 720p display, you take line 1 and 2, and average them, and stick the average between them.

So you have

1
av(1,2)
2

Then repeat for 3 and 4, 5 and 6 all the way down to 479 and 480.

This is a simple method of upconverting, and it works well. 720 is 3/2 * 480, so it works nicely.

What about upconverting from 480 to 1080?

Well, that's 2.25. 9/4,. Every 9 lines, you'd have to insert 4 more. Duplicates, averages, weighted averages, or a mix. You don't need to do it eveyr 9 lines either. Just so long as you get 2.25 lines in the end. Different TVs will have different methods of upscaling. This is comparable to differences between bilinear, bicubic, etc resizing filters you may have used with photos or video editing apps.

480 to 1080 is a particularly nasty one, and it can look kinda fugly. If given the choice, I'd choose to take 480 sources and put them as 720.

It's a much easier conversion, and, most sets will support 720p, so 480i material can be deinterlaced (again, all sets have different methods of deinterlacing. Some are just simple interpolation, blending, averaging, some detect 3:2 patters, or other patterns for PAL and other odd crap). 480i can be turned into 480p (not as good as 480p!) and then scaled to 720p. 480p would just have to be scaled, it still stays progressive.

Now, why not choose 480 -> 1080?
Because of the unwieldy conversion at 9/4. (This can be done using the 3/2 method I described above twice)
AND, because I haven't seen a set that displays TRUE 1080p. If you have a 480i source and have a good method of converting 480 to 1080, then all is well. But if you have a 480p source, you're gonna go from progressive to interlaced. THE HORROR!!!

What about 720p? Can you convert that to 1080i?
1: Interlacing = poop.
2: It's a simple 3:2 ratio.

If you're stuck with a 1080i only display, you're at the mercy of the set's built-in deinterlacers and scalers.

If you're stuck with a 720p display, you're in a better situation. 480i and 480p will look great. 720p will look great (I have yet to see 720i, and I hope it doesn't exist!) However, 1080i/p is too much for you. Most sets will handle this signal and scale it down (Every three lines turns into 2 lines).

If you're in the market - look for
1080i native AND 720p native. Also check the net to learn about what scalers it uses.
If you can, you should wait for 1080p to hit the market.

Oh, and STAY THE FUCK AWAY from plasmas, lcds, etc. Stay with the good ol' CRT. Plasma and LCD "HD"TVs are bullshit - they offer fucking odd resolutions, and aren't true HDTV.
(HDTV is 1920 by 1080 i/p ! Anything lower is EDTV, enhanced definition, but the marketing bastards got their way and now it's become accepted that anything above 480 can be called HDTV! BULLSHIT!)

 

[Shogmaster]

Read a few bits of this topic, and I haven't noticed anyone actually explaining what upconverting is.

Basically, if you have a 480p source, and you have a 720p display, you take line 1 and 2, and average them, and stick the average between them.

So you have

1
av(1,2)
2

Then repeat for 3 and 4, 5 and 6 all the way down to 479 and 480.

This is a simple method of upconverting, and it works well. 720 is 3/2 * 480, so it works nicely.

What about upconverting from 480 to 1080?

Well, that's 2.25. 9/4,. Every 9 lines, you'd have to insert 4 more. Duplicates, averages, weighted averages, or a mix. You don't need to do it eveyr 9 lines either. Just so long as you get 2.25 lines in the end. Different TVs will have different methods of upscaling. This is comparable to differences between bilinear, bicubic, etc resizing filters you may have used with photos or video editing apps.

480 to 1080 is a particularly nasty one, and it can look kinda fugly. If given the choice, I'd choose to take 480 sources and put them as 720.

It's a much easier conversion, and, most sets will support 720p, so 480i material can be deinterlaced (again, all sets have different methods of deinterlacing. Some are just simple interpolation, blending, averaging, some detect 3:2 patters, or other patterns for PAL and other odd crap). 480i can be turned into 480p (not as good as 480p!) and then scaled to 720p. 480p would just have to be scaled, it still stays progressive.

Now, why not choose 480 -> 1080?
Because of the unwieldy conversion at 9/4. (This can be done using the 3/2 method I described above twice)
AND, because I haven't seen a set that displays TRUE 1080p. If you have a 480i source and have a good method of converting 480 to 1080, then all is well. But if you have a 480p source, you're gonna go from progressive to interlaced. THE HORROR!!!

What about 720p? Can you convert that to 1080i?
1: Interlacing = poop.
2: It's a simple 3:2 ratio.

If you're stuck with a 1080i only display, you're at the mercy of the set's built-in deinterlacers and scalers.

If you're stuck with a 720p display, you're in a better situation. 480i and 480p will look great. 720p will look great (I have yet to see 720i, and I hope it doesn't exist!) However, 1080i/p is too much for you. Most sets will handle this signal and scale it down (Every three lines turns into 2 lines).

If you're in the market - look for
1080i native AND 720p native. Also check the net to learn about what scalers it uses.
If you can, you should wait for 1080p to hit the market.

Oh, and STAY THE FUCK AWAY from plasmas, lcds, etc. Stay with the good ol' CRT. Plasma and LCD "HD"TVs are bullshit - they offer fucking odd resolutions, and aren't true HDTV.
(HDTV is 1920 by 1080 i/p ! Anything lower is EDTV, enhanced definition, but the marketing bastards got their way and now it's become accepted that anything above 480 can be called HDTV! BULLSHIT!)

I like this guy!

 

[sonycowboy]

If you're in the market - look for
1080i native AND 720p native. Also check the net to learn about what scalers it uses.
If you can, you should wait for 1080p to hit the market.

Oh, and STAY THE FUCK AWAY from plasmas, lcds, etc. Stay with the good ol' CRT. Plasma and LCD "HD"TVs are bullshit - they offer fucking odd resolutions, and aren't true HDTV.
(HDTV is 1920 by 1080 i/p ! Anything lower is EDTV, enhanced definition, but the marketing bastards got their way and now it's become accepted that anything above 480 can be called HDTV! BULLSHIT!)

Wait a second.

Hasn't it already been determined that there is no true 720p or 1080i CRT (much less a 1080p) set out there? (and likely won't ever be??) And aren't some of the new DLP / LCD/ Plasma's "true" 720p sets? (Don't know if you can call any of them "true" 1080i sets as digital displays aren't interlaced??)

Unfortunately, it seems as if, by default, 720p and 1080i, will be "standard" HDTV for quite awhile as broadcasters won't be transmitting in 1080p for a loooong time. So, the only sources for 1080p will likely be Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, and the odd PS3 game.

 

[Cooper]

If you're in the market - look for
1080i native AND 720p native.

For all intents and purposes, no such display exists. If you know of one, I'm sure Shog would be delighted to hear about it.

Oh, and STAY THE FUCK AWAY from plasmas, lcds, etc. Stay with the good ol' CRT. Plasma and LCD "HD"TVs are bullshit - they offer fucking odd resolutions, and aren't true HDTV.
(HDTV is 1920 by 1080 i/p ! Anything lower is EDTV, enhanced definition, but the marketing bastards got their way and now it's become accepted that anything above 480 can be called HDTV! BULLSHIT!)

Oddly enough, the only displays I know of currently on the market that offer full 1920x1080 resolution are LCD variants.

 

[Mrbob]

720P and 1080I native? Mind pointing us in that direction.

Anyway, whats the deal with the upcoming 1080P sets? Are they going to display ALL resolutions (480P, 720P, 1080i, 1080P) in native modes or will they convert all of them to 1080P? If they convert them all to 1080P I may stay away awhile.

Also, a couple of the new Sony RPTV LCD sets are 720P *native*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sonycowboy]

720P and 1080I native? Mind pointing us in that direction.

Anyway, whats the deal with the upcoming 1080P sets? Are they going to display ALL resolutions (480P, 720P, 1080i, 1080P) in native modes or will they convert all of them to 1080P? If they convert them all to 1080P I may stay away awhile.

Also, a couple of the new Sony RPTV LCD sets are 720P *native*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it even possible for "fixed pixel" sets to have multiple native resolutions? Other than simply blacking out the extra million pixels to go down to 720p from 1080i?

What's more important to me, is can CRT's have multiple native resolutions and will they EVER get up to 1080p?

 

[Mrbob]

Yeah, I don't think they can. That's why 1080P doesn't get me too excited at the moment. Maybe in 5 to 7 years....

Not too sure about the CRT issue

 

[Cooper]

Is it even possible for "fixed pixel" sets to have multiple native resolutions? Other than simply blacking out the extra million pixels to go down to 720p from 1080i?

The closest solution (without blank pixels) would be an ultra-high res 3840x2160 display. Then 720p and 1080i/p would just be multiplied by an integer, which is essentially just making the pixels larger.

 

[Shogmaster]

Yeah, I don't think they can. That's why 1080P doesn't get me too excited at the moment. Maybe in 5 to 7 years....

Not too sure about the CRT issue

There is ONE CRT that can give you 1080p!!

Sony FW900 can do 2304 x 1440 @ 80 Hz! 1920x1200@ 85hz!!

But it's only 24"

 

[sonycowboy]

There is ONE CRT that can give you 1080p!!

Sony FW900 can do 2304 x 1440 @ 80 Hz! 1920x1200@ 85hz!!

But it's only 24"

The aspect ratio of off!! No deal (well, it's discontinued anyway).

Quick question: Can VGA (or SVGA, whatever) truly handle the same video data as DVI / HDMI? I know it can support a real big resolution and that it's analog, but other than that, is it capable of reprocing the same images?

 

[mrklaw]

bah, I'm getting bored of the willy waving. I'm happy with my 720p set, and think its the sweetspot for the next 5 years or so.

after that we'll see whether 1080p is worth having in a direct view set. Projector probably, direct view I doubt

 

[Shogmaster]

The aspect ratio of off!! No deal (well, it's discontinued anyway).

Quick question: Can VGA (or SVGA, whatever) truly handle the same video data as DVI / HDMI? I know it can support a real big resolution and that it's analog, but other than that, is it capable of reprocing the same images?

There's nothing special about DVI/HDMI other than the fact that the data can be purely digital from the frame buffer. There are DVI cables that can carry both digital and analog signals BTW.

 

[Mrbob]

bah, I'm getting bored of the willy waving. I'm happy with my 720p set, and think its the sweetspot for the next 5 years or so.

I agree. Also, with the introduction of 1080P sets this fall 720P sets will go down some more. You'll be able to find a nice 720P DLP or LCD set for around 2000 this fall in B & M stores more than likely.

 

[sonycowboy]

I agree. Also, with the introduction of 1080P sets this fall 720P sets will go down some more. You'll be able to find a nice 720P DLP or LCD set for around 2000 this fall in B & M stores more than likely.

What about those less financially well off? We need to have a killer ~$1,000 HDTV (well for the price anyway) that's not a 19-24" LCD display.

 

[borghe]

there are no true direct view 1080i sets out there. there are plenty of true 1080i projection sets out there.

as for the whole 1080i argument vs 720p argument, it really is quite stupid. my point was simply to debunk that 720p sets are in someway superior. on a technical level both 1080i and 720p sets have their advantages and disadvantages. on a practical level, they are essentially the same and the quality in turn falls on the build quality of the set and the scalers used to convert non-native sources. but it is stupid to sit here and ask "should I buy a 1080i set or a 720p set" because the truth is it won't fucking matter. a good HD set is a good HD set, regardless of resolution.

I'll make it even simpler... a nice 1080i set will make all HD sources look gorgeous. a nice 720p set will make all HD sources look gorgeous. End of story.

 

[8BALL]

MOST LCD/DLP/PLASMA sets are NOT 1920 by 1080!

http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid...o/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs

1366 by 768 for a multi-thousand dollar plasma.

It's not alone. 99% of them are like this. They never like to tell you, though. I could find literally hundreds more, but I'm not that bored. If you want, a good place to look is the sunday paper, circuit city and best buy ads will sometimes state the resolution. Goog Dguys, Comp USA, and some other stores might tell you too. But if it doesn't explicitly say it supports 1920 by 1080 RESOLUTION, there is a good chance it doesn't.

These screens support the SIGNALS up to 1080i, which is what is advertised. However, it's shrunken down to weird ass resolutions. The biggest problem is not the lack of resolution, because 1366 by 768 is still a big upgrade from 640 by 480. The big issue is SCALING those fucking signals to reach that shit. That's 32/45. That's an UGLY scaling (dwon from 1080) and up from 720? JESUS. You have to create a mere 48 lines from a full 720? GOOD FUCKING LUCK doing that right without it becoming a blurry ass rash.

PLASMA/LCD, and to a lesser extent DLP, simply SUCK.

They are expensive as shit.
Picture quality is not as good.
Brightness and contrast ratios suck. (Finally starting to compete in high end models)
Black levels are SHIT.
Viewing angles still aren't that great.

However, they do save on space and look good, and weigh a hell of a lot less.

The CRT is still king for display quality, viewability, reliability, brightness, contrast, and price.

As for a set thta natively supports 1080 AND 720? I've seen a few that let you disable or enable the upscaling to 1080i. I assume you'd be able to watch it full screen as well. (These were CRTs) But I'm not sure. Not somethign I give a shit about really. The biggest problem with a 1080 set is going from 480p to 1080i. The sizing can be done well depending on the method used, but I fucking hate the idea of fucking a progressive source to the stone age of interlaced.
720p to 1080i has the same issue.

I haven't speficially looked for a model claiming to support 720p and 1080i natively

(for those who don't know, natively means the guns will actually scan at that resolution, and there is no stretching involved. CRTs have a much easier time supporting different resolutions natively because of how they work (in comparison to lcds and plasma and such))


I AM in the market for an HDTV for my apartment. Price is a big issue. I need it by the end of the end of August. I'm thinking of this - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...t&productCategoryId=cat03003&id=1097582050451

Opinions? I can get it for 530 after tax and shipping. It'll sure as hell be an improvement over the shit that's at the apartment now.


As far as 1080p, keep an eye out - they're supposed to make an appearance this summer. Whether that meand be presented at conventions/shows/press events, or actually make it to market I'm not sure. And I'm sure they'll hit asia first - Korea mainly, since Japan hates HDTV like they hate a Chinese counterfit Pokemon toy.
I'd expect end of the year for the US for 1080p to be readily avaialable - for a price.

Another thing to look out for is SED. Basically, it uses phosphors and such, just like a CRT, but without a thick long glass tube. (Just google it) It should offer great quality, brightness, etc, and low power consumption. Basically, a thin CRT. Too bad it'll be fucking expensive.

So - any ideas for a good HDTV?

I'm looking at about 800 max price. (I'd like to keep it lower if possible)
I need all the good inputs - with at least 1 HDMI for future proofing.
CRT is a must (this is dictated by the price limit anyway)

A built in tuner would be nice, but not necessary. We get no fucking reception at the apartment, and will have free cable. BASIC cable without a box, so it has to at least have an NTSC tuner - or I can just run it through the VCR and use that tuner. I wouldn't get stereo sound I don't think, but fuck that, it's just TV. I want the HDTV mainly for DVDs and Games (fucking Nintendo better support some fucking form of HDTV - bastards, I hope their comments meant they wouldn't FORCE HDTV like MS is doing, but Nintendo has faield me so many fucking times...)

Anyway, any ideas? I don't need a huge fucking screen. (26 inch would be good)
In fact, the dimensions of the one I listed are the max for fitting in this cabinet I have. I can always just move shit around and stick it somewhere else, but I'd like it to fit in the cabinet.

1080i is a must (not scaling, but actual displaying! But most "HD" crts do this anyway)
16:9 is a must as well.

 

[sonycowboy]

1080i is a must (not scaling, but actual displaying! But most "HD" crts do this anyway)
16:9 is a must as well.

Not according to Shog (or the avs forums either).

 

[8BALL]

There are plenty of monitors that can kick a lot of ass - mine from almost 2 years ago, for 200 bucks, supports 2048 by 1536. Fun stuff. I bought it specifically for the T2: Extreme HD WMV shit and other HD shit in geenral. Too bad it's mostly going to waste.

As far as no true 1080i direct view displays?
I think that's wrong. I know for a fact that there are a lot of CRT HDTVs that support the dull 1920 by 1080 resolution. Unless I've simply been lied to.

Care to explain? Point me to some that AREN'T truly 1080i.

 

[Mrbob]

Yes, we already established most LCD sets are 768. I just pointed out that the new Sony sets are true 720P. That is all.

What about those less financially well off? We need to have a killer ~$1,000 HDTV (well for the price anyway) that's not a 19-24" LCD display.

You want a CRT tube to display 1080i? I don't think it's gonna happen. It's too costly for the manufacturer to do it and sales for HDTV tubes just aren't there to justify the cost. But at the same time, I don't think it is a big deal, either. From what I've been reading, if you buy a nice 30" widescreen set, you truly won't see a big difference in a true 1080i signal versus the resolution the TV outputs unless you are like 2-3 feet away from the TV. You can get a 30" Sony XR955 for 1199 at best buy. Near 1100 when its on sale. You can get the new Toshiba 34" HF85 (Though it is made by Orion now) for around the same price. The Toshiba sets have about 1200 lines of horizontal resolution. While not as high as the Sony Super Fine pitch tubes which do 1400 it's still better than other HDTV sets. These sets process 720P signals internally. You can get some awesome tube sets for around 1000 bucks.

 

[Cooper]

MOST LCD/DLP/PLASMA sets are NOT 1920 by 1080!

I think everyone here knows that. However, there are a few 1920x1080 direct view LCDs and LCoS TVs, and you can buy them right now.

PLASMA/LCD, and to a lesser extent DLP, simply SUCK.

Viewing angles still aren't that great.

Digital displays have their problems, but viewing angle is not one for plasmas and newer direct-view LCDs. Digital projection displays are no worse here than projection CRT.

I AM in the market for an HDTV for my apartment. Price is a big issue. I need it by the end of the end of August. I'm thinking of this - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...t&productCategoryId=cat03003&id=1097582050451

You won't find one with all your requirements by August. I gaurantee you the display you linked to does not resolve a full 1920x1080 pattern, and does not do native 720p.

As far as 1080p, keep an eye out - they're supposed to make an appearance this summer.

Already out.

So - any ideas for a good HDTV?

I'm looking at about 800 max price. (I'd like to keep it lower if possible)
I need all the good inputs - with at least 1 HDMI for future proofing.
CRT is a must (this is dictated by the price limit anyway)

You won't find one with these requirements on the market now, and perhaps never. CRT is getting harder to find, and I doubt the manufacturers are making too many improvements on them.

 

[mrklaw]

As far as no true 1080i direct view displays?
I think that's wrong. I know for a fact that there are a lot of CRT HDTVs that support the dull 1920 by 1080 resolution. Unless I've simply been lied to.

Care to explain? Point me to some that AREN'T truly 1080i.

See? You started off really well - even Shog was impressed. But now you've gone all silly, and in only 3 posts too. Never mind.


There are probably *zero* CRTs that will display a 1080p image. There are plenty of sets that will display a 1080i image, as that only needs them to draw 540 lines per 1/60 second. And due to CRTs inherent analog nature, it can adjust where it draws those 540 lines, moving them up/down slightly to fill the gaps for the next field.

But they don't support 1080p, and they don't support 720p. They support 540p, which is handy for 1080i and thats about it.

For TV it might be OK, but games will have discrete 1280x720 frames being sent to the TV 60 times per second, so

(a) downsampling is better avoided - not the end of the world, but whats the point when you end up with 480p-ish? and

(b) you don't want to be interlacing that. combing like in that soul calibur shot is to be avoided at all costs.