Fraternity chanting the n-word
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Fbh
Member
Well that's a bunch of idiots right there.
Also LOL at the "they are 19-20 years old" coments. Is that a thing in the USA? Are people expected to act like adults after they are 30 or something?.
I mean come on, no one will expect every 20 years old to be 100% mature, but if at that age you are doing shit like this then you are a fucking racist and way past the "he is just a small kid who doesn't know what he is talking about" excuses
It allways sounds like top universities in the USA are picky about who they let join. I guess they won't like the fact you were expelled from your previous university for chanting racist songs.
(though I guess that with enough money and connections you can still go into any place)
Also LOL at the "they are 19-20 years old" coments. Is that a thing in the USA? Are people expected to act like adults after they are 30 or something?.
I mean come on, no one will expect every 20 years old to be 100% mature, but if at that age you are doing shit like this then you are a fucking racist and way past the "he is just a small kid who doesn't know what he is talking about" excuses
It allways sounds like top universities in the USA are picky about who they let join. I guess they won't like the fact you were expelled from your previous university for chanting racist songs.
(though I guess that with enough money and connections you can still go into any place)
Squirrel Killer
Member
Yes, but since it doesn't "remove those people from society," it's only a start. A good start, to be sure, but obviously more needs to be done to "remove those people from society."
If this was at a private school, I'd agree. IANAL, but OU's status as a state school may make expelling them over hate speech more complicated.
It depends on whether or not they're black males, who become men at 18.
I am pretty sure this is exactly how it is going to go down. Unless that bus was a university thing or part of a University function, I can't even imagine how they could do this unless there's something in their student conduct code specifically for something like this. And I would imagine that the chances of that at a public university is pretty rare.
CrushDance
Banned
So in America, if someone is being racist in public, that's perfectly fine? Is that because the country was founded on racism?
GoldenEye 007
Member
I suppose it depends on the campus.
In my experience, a lot of our members were not excessively rich or anything close. Many worked throughout college or relied on financial aid and scholarships. Dues aren't always very high either. But again it depends. I'm sure economically in my case, affluence matched the overall campus population. Some very well off. Some middle class. Some working full time or close to it to make everything work.
breakfastchampion
Member
No, it's totally not perfectly fine.
Atraveller
Banned
Only when you are white, being rich also helps.
haha chanting that you are never going to let black people into your organization/that they should be hung from a tree = not actual hate and discrimination. Got it. Any more tips on how to be an enabling piece of shit?
WayneMorse
Banned
Pretty much. Mind you the people in that video aren't just red neck country hicks, they're rich and affluent. After graduating they're probably going to go work for some Halliburton or some shit in Houston and make a fortune and live in nice white suburbs with big houses and a police force that shoots blacks on sight.
freeofgreed
Member
I go to a public university and last semester we had an incident were a student wrote an extremely racist message on the door of another student (who was black). Not only was he expelled but he was also charged with a hate crime.
Squirrel Killer
Member
It's only fine if the racists clap afterwards and tip anyone who saw them.
Disappointingly fixed.
No, but it's also not up to the government to decide what is right and wrong speech.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Yes that's fine as long as nobody is being directly threatened. And it's because there is a pretty strong principle of free speech as required by law.
As a black person, I have no issue that racist speech is "allowed."
DoktorEvil
Banned
The University and Nationals took the right steps in ending the chapter.
The question is if it'll stick.
entremet
Member
Was this in America?
I have no opinion on the penalty, but it doesn't sound that is possible in the US due to 1st amendment.
Delta Assault
Member
I think the ringleaders identified in the video will get expelled, but probably not the whole frat. There's too much you'd need to prove. For example, someone could've been in the frat but not on that bus. They can say they were completely blameless and had no idea. They would've had no involvement in the racist proceedings.
People on the bus that weren't visible in that video could say they weren't chanting at all, they were just sitting there wondering what the fuck. Who knows. Some people join a frat just for networking opportunities, not to join in on some racist chants. They might've just been tolerating the frat douchiness for that and then, whoa, that racist chant went way too far. They could argue they're just as disgusted as everyone else and didn't participate. The evidence doesn't conclusively nail them so they'd be able to argue any way they wanted to. Of course, you'd have real racists that would be using this defense, as well as anybody who truly didn't sing along.
People on the bus that weren't visible in that video could say they weren't chanting at all, they were just sitting there wondering what the fuck. Who knows. Some people join a frat just for networking opportunities, not to join in on some racist chants. They might've just been tolerating the frat douchiness for that and then, whoa, that racist chant went way too far. They could argue they're just as disgusted as everyone else and didn't participate. The evidence doesn't conclusively nail them so they'd be able to argue any way they wanted to. Of course, you'd have real racists that would be using this defense, as well as anybody who truly didn't sing along.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I believe it would.
I'm also unsure as to how the school's preventing the students from attending due to their public acts of racial prejudice could constitute a violation of their first amendment rights. They're not imprisoning them for it, or charging them with crimes against the government. They're disallowing them from attending their school due to behavioral problems.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I guess people who want to say racist things feel comfortable knowing someone's got an excuse for them at every age
Teenagers: All teens say dumb things
College: Not really adults, have their whole lives ahead of them
Late 20s: Were probably sheltered, need to be educated (usually by the minorities they shit on)
30s~50s: Hey, they need to work and have families (which are not more important than racist Facebook post under their real name!)
50s~60s: They're a product of those times, can't blame dear old grandma/grandpa
60s~: All the racists will be dead soon
repeat
Teenagers: All teens say dumb things
College: Not really adults, have their whole lives ahead of them
Late 20s: Were probably sheltered, need to be educated (usually by the minorities they shit on)
30s~50s: Hey, they need to work and have families (which are not more important than racist Facebook post under their real name!)
50s~60s: They're a product of those times, can't blame dear old grandma/grandpa
60s~: All the racists will be dead soon
repeat
GoldenEye 007
Member
Well that's vandalism and has been pretty well established it is legally not ok. The student also seems to have been specifically targeted.
That seems like a different situation than this one.
No shit. I shouldn't be surprised, there's a defense force for everything on this board.
Boot them out and put in on their record. They can attend a different university or community college. Decent people shouldn't have to put up with these assholes, and they shouldn't get off with a tap on the wrist either.
People love to make excuses for this stuff.
And people say younger generations are generally more accepting of their peers despite differences. :lol
This hurt to read. It hurt to watch.
People get away with this all the time. This past August at my school someone posted racist flyers everywhere around the surrounding area with the university logo. Admins did nothing but request they cease to use the school's logo.
This hurt to read. It hurt to watch.
People get away with this all the time. This past August at my school someone posted racist flyers everywhere around the surrounding area with the university logo. Admins did nothing but request they cease to use the school's logo.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's honestly ridiculous how this is so true.
GoldenEye 007
Member
The school is public. Therefore it is a government agency and cannot punish student for speech they deem unacceptable. They have to follow established legal precedent to punish someone in this situation.
Unless someone was threatened or something like that. If this was a private school, they would have the ability to easily expel everyone.
CrushDance
Banned
Wait, wait. So are you telling me that in America, you can say racist things in public, encourage racism even. And as long as you don't specify an individual in your wording, the public is fine with that?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Public schools can and do punish students for unacceptable speech all the time. It's not even a particularly remarkable event.
No. This is untrue.
Not to mention that that sounds like it was on university property as well. And targeted to a specific individual, that's definitely menacing/intimidation.
Pretty sure freedom of speech doesn't include hate speech.
entremet
Member
It actually does.
You cannot be prosecuted by the State of hate speech in the United States.
CrushDance
Banned
But how then do people say racist things openly? What is the punishment when they can blend in with larger society? Is it their skin colour that saves them then?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Hell no. Whoever believes that is quite out of touch.
GoldenEye 007
Member
It has nothing to do with excuses. It's the reality that as a public institution, there is potentially little they can do. Now I'll bet their general counsel is combing through every case law to see if they can take action without getting sued out of the water, but until they do, there is little to be done. Public schools have to follow free speech laws.
Yes of course. I mean the "public" may not be fine with it, but there is nothing legally that teally can be done.
Holy shit... can't even...
Am I the only one whose reaction to something like this is to laugh loudly? Like, at first you think 'maybe it's not so bad', then you read what happened, and it's not just bad, but it's like something written by a bad scriptwriter of a CSI episode or something? Something you wouldn't believe if it was on TV? Isn't there something fundamentaly humorous and absurd in the year of our lord 2015 that
a) these morons hold these views
b) these morons air these views in public
c) these morons don't understand the pervasive nature of cameras in society, and
d) these morons may have ruined their futures over a fucking song that some of them were probably singing just to be edgy?
My reaction to anything unbelievable or absurd is usually laughter. And this is completely fucking unbelievable and absurd.
Dem boys gonna have the book thrown at them. Maybe one of them might pick it up afterwards and learn something. Just astonishing. Fucking astonishing.
Am I the only one whose reaction to something like this is to laugh loudly? Like, at first you think 'maybe it's not so bad', then you read what happened, and it's not just bad, but it's like something written by a bad scriptwriter of a CSI episode or something? Something you wouldn't believe if it was on TV? Isn't there something fundamentaly humorous and absurd in the year of our lord 2015 that
a) these morons hold these views
b) these morons air these views in public
c) these morons don't understand the pervasive nature of cameras in society, and
d) these morons may have ruined their futures over a fucking song that some of them were probably singing just to be edgy?
My reaction to anything unbelievable or absurd is usually laughter. And this is completely fucking unbelievable and absurd.
Dem boys gonna have the book thrown at them. Maybe one of them might pick it up afterwards and learn something. Just astonishing. Fucking astonishing.
freeofgreed
Member
Yeah, my mistake. I looked more into the story he was actually charged with vandalism but he was expelled.
entremet
Member
Either they don't care about the public censure--see Westboro Church--or they do and repent in public--see Strom Thurmond.
That doesn't say that it won't affect your public image, career prospects, or possible business entanglements.
looooooooooool
CrushDance
Banned
You guys are confusing me. It seems to me that whenever someone says something racist, they usually get media attention, step down or are fired. And then move on to another job or whatever elsewhere if it's a big enough deal. I'm asking, are there legal ramifications other than public disapproval, which is passing?
Edit: Okay. I think I've got it now. So then why can't these students be expelled and a "black mark" put onto their records? Does the public not want that?
Edit: Okay. I think I've got it now. So then why can't these students be expelled and a "black mark" put onto their records? Does the public not want that?
Bare Grills
Member
I agree. If they do get kicked out of the school, it's their own fault. If they weren't racist in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue.
I dunno about expelling, but it certainly will kill the fraternity on the campus for a good few years.
OGoofy said:
Yep, but there will be people on GAF that'll rush to frats defenses. I'm glad they have had good times and connections with their frat brothers. But there have been too many frat issues/drama/whatever you want to call it, to where I'm not okay with frats.
freeofgreed
Member
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Threats aren't protected speech. Doing this chant in a bus with no intention of it getting out isn't really a threat, but doing this exact chant directed at an individual black person would be a straight up threat and a hate crime.
Delta Assault
Member
I think I know what you're thinking about, but I'm not sure that those would fit this situation. If a student yells "Fuck you" to a teacher in class, then yes, the public school can punish them for disruption of class/profanity/etc. No first amendment issue there at all.
However, in this particular situation... I don't think any of those apply. I mean, I'm struggling really hard to think of something here, cause these guys are scum.
*sigh* We just went over this in another thread. And yes, freedom of speech does include hate speech, unless it's promoting imminent violence.
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