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[Zexen]

I wonder if they didn't add it in an effort to hide a lot of the aliasing and shimmering in the periphery where it might be distracting?

I'd rather have jaggies and shimmering than that CA crap that totally fucks up my eyes.

Even in the Cinema industry it is a unwanted effect on a camera, so why keep using it in games, where you're clearly not seeing through one (except specific case).

 

[Orayn]

??

It is 30 frames per second, as in the game draws 30 frames. But they are definitely not discrete / different.

This isn't even like a scenario where each frame is individual / different, / but unevenly paced. This is similar to framedoubling by vsync.

Two unique frames followed by two duplicates (of the second unique frame) would mean it's a like a momentary jump to "60 FPS" pacing, then a brief drop to 20.

1 1 2 2 [u][B]3 3 3 4[/B][/u] 5 5 6 6

 

[cgcg]

Just as bad as the frame pacing is the CA in my opinion. Makes everything look like a mess and covered in metallic shine in bright areas. Really messes with the game's aesthetics. It looked so great before when CA wasn't implemented. sigh hope they will patch it out.

I'd rather have jaggies and shimmering than that CA crap that totally fucks up my eyes.

Even in the Cinema industry it is a unwanted effect on a camera, so why keep using it in games, where you're clearly not seeing through one (except specific case).

Totally agree. It's this gen's bloom effect but this crap looks 10x worse and it seems no dev is capable of using it effectively except one (The Order 1886).

I can handle frame dips when they are predictable (like in Blight Town) but I really cant handle the ridiculous amounts of CA this game has. I posted last night that I actually had to stop playing because my eyes started hurting from the lack of clarity on the edges of the screen. It's everywhere and it's really not subtle at all yet we have people here on GAF who apparently cant even see the effect being used.

Hopefully enough people make enough noise and we can turn it off like we could in Lords of the Fallen.

Time for a new thread ; )

 

[tuxfool]

I know where you coming from but isn't Unity way more demanding than Bloodborne in technical terms?

ACU is more demanding. But there was a veritable buffet of issues with that game, all suggesting it was rushed out of the door.

There are levels of tolerance to consider and thus the frame rate problems in that game are much more apparent and possibly uncomfortable.

 

[Zombie James]

I'd rather have jaggies and shimmering than that CA crap that totally fucks up my eyes.

If From made this horrible trade-off I'd probably return my copy.

 

[def sim]

Hopefully enough people make enough noise and we can turn it off like we could in Lords of the Fallen.

I didn't realize the console version of LOTF gave the option to turn off CA. If that's the case, I want to see the same in Bloodborne. It looks horrfic; I'd rather see the aliasing than deal with the video defect look.

 

[Dictator93]

No, you are misunderstanding. 60hz means refreshing 60 times every second. Which means for 30fps it SHOULD display every frame twice. Each frame should be repeated once, so it should look something like:
11.22.33.44.55.66.77.88.99

But instead what's happening is something like
11.23.33.44.56.66.77.89.99

You can see 9 discrete frames still occur in each case, but they are not on screen for the same duration.

30 unique frames are displaying, but some are repeating for more refresh cycles than they should, and some are not displaying for as many refresh cycles as they should. It is still showing 30 frames per second.

Aye. Given the fact that you have the same frame displaying for 40 ms (or more according to DF)... and this hapens multiple times per second... doesnt this mean that 30 unique frames often do not occur in one actual second?

Two unique frames followed by two duplicates (of the second unique frame) would mean it's a like a momentary jump to "60 FPS" pacing, then a brief drop to 20.

1 1 2 2 [u][B]3 3 3 4[/B][/u] 5 5 6 6

I see this now, but as questioned above. If this happens multiple times a second... doesnt this mean you are displaying less than 30 unique frames a second?

 

[dan2026]

I didn't realize the console version of LOTF gave the option to turn off CA. If that's the case, I want to see the same in Bloodborne. It looks horrfic; I'd rather see the aliasing than deal with the video defect look.

One thing at a time. The framerate stuttering is #1 issue. Followed somewhat by the over long load times.

Also if I am understanding right. If the engine is putting out mote frames than it needs to (ie duplicates) wouldn't fixing it have a positive effect on overall performance?
A saving of frames.

 

[Orayn]

Aye. Given the fact that you have the same frame displaying for 40 ms (or more according to DF)... and this hapens multiple times per second... doesnt this mean that 30 unique frames often do not occur in one actual second?


I see this now, but as questioned above. If this happens multiple times a second... doesnt this mean you are displaying less than 30 unique frames a second?

Depends on where you define the beginning and ending of your second, I guess? The overall average works out to 30 if it's not dropping any, but you can isolate a span of time where it's lower or higher than that.

 

[ShogunX]

I didn't realize the console version of LOTF gave the option to turn off CA. If that's the case, I want to see the same in Bloodborne. It looks horrfic; I'd rather see the aliasing than deal with the video defect look.

I only have the PC version of LotF so I don't know if the console versions got the 1.3 update that allowed you to turn of the effect.

Edit - Actually it is in the console versions. Patch 1.4 allowed - •Post Chromashift setting is now optional.

 

[-griffy-]

Aye. Given the fact that you have the same frame displaying for 40 ms (or more according to DF)... and this hapens multiple times per second... doesnt this mean that 30 unique frames often do not occur in one actual second?


I see this now, but as questioned above. If this happens multiple times a second... doesnt this mean you are displaying less than 30 unique frames a second?

If it is consistently...inconsistent...it would show 30 frames most seconds (not taking into account unrelated performance drops), but I suppose there is a chance it would show either 31 frames or 29 frames depending on how the frame pacing lays out exactly over an isolated 60 refreshes.

 

[dark10x]

I know where you coming from but isn't Unity way more demanding than Bloodborne in technical terms?

Sure it is, but that doesn't excuse it's problems.

 

[Zexen]

If From made this horrible trade-off I'd probably return my copy.

The CA really bother me more than aliasing and shimmering when I'm playing on console. Being far more away from my screen than on my PC, the aliasing is not that apparent, there is still some, but not as much visible than the ChromAberration can be. Whether you're close or not from your screen it really jumps on your eyes screaming: "Hey! Look at me"

But on PC, yeah, aliasing is not even an option, and that's why I'm always downsampling games.

 

[Krusenstern]

sounds pretty great for a souls game

Oh god...

Terrible frame pacing sounds awful even for a Souls game.

 

[Chobel]

Wrong thread.

 

[jim2point0]

How I wish they would stop it. That way we might see more developers (and publishers) care about IQ rather than munge some crappy fxaa solution and call it a day.

I think it's just too expensive for console hardware. And for a lot of games, the aliasing isn't too bad when you're sitting a good distance from the TV. Chances are you're looking at screenshots when on a computer, and the distance from you to the monitor is much shorter. That level of scrutiny usually isn't possible on console games unless you walk up to your TV screen. This is generally how they justify supersampling promo shots.

 

[tuxfool]

I think it's just too expensive for console hardware. And for a lot of games, the aliasing isn't too bad when you're sitting a good distance from the TV. Chances are you're looking at screenshots when on a computer, and the distance from you to the monitor is much shorter. That level of scrutiny usually isn't possible on console games unless you walk up to your TV screen. This is generally how they justify supersampling promo shots.

Personally I am very sensitive to aliasing and find that even far away, on things like specular highlights it is very visible. The effect of aliasing can sometimes be even worse during motion.

The issue here is that there are developers that have tried unique solutions towards the problems like ubisoft with hraa and crytek with taa. I'd be happy if they only employed something like smaa t2x (once again only sometimes used).

Using AA is just a question of appropriately budgeting for it. It isn't going to ever produce magnificent results, but certainly improve iq.

 

[Lord Error]

Load has everything to do with it as does script ordering. Most of us will use dead space before a frame time is hit to do other things to maximize CPU use, the old Naughty Dog glass with stone, sand and water analogy.

At least I look for those moments of freedom to optimize. Sometimes it can be simple ordering to fix an issue or spreading a process across several frames instead of one - depending on the application and its needs.

But that's not what's happening here. Everything is rendered on time, but there is an error in 1/60hz frame repetition, which is, if anything, happening because the frames are rendered faster than 30FPS. This post explained it the best:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=157266463&postcount=300

I see this now, but as questioned above. If this happens multiple times a second... doesnt this mean you are displaying less than 30 unique frames a second?

No, because what you underlined is not what's happening. The actual thing that's happening is something like:
11 22 33 45 45 66
There are always unique 30 frames, and they are always delivered on time, but their repetition is shuffled.

 

[WordsintheWater]

So frame pacing is what I noticed, I didn't even know there was term for that, I just chalked it up to general framerate.

 

[Dictator93]

There are always unique 30 frames, and they are always delivered on time, but their repetition is shuffled.

Therefore implying the game is going above 30... but not knowing how to actually limit to a proper 30. Interesting.

And also odd that they didn't notice it / couldn't fix it given its prevalence.

edit: you are saying it is reshowing a previous frame? DF is saying that it is doubling the previous frame.. aka 3 refreshes in total of the same image.

This is making me wish DF wrote exactly what they meant. Better yet... I will just download some raw footage and see how it is.

 

[Collateral22]

Therefore implying the game is going above 30... but not knowing how to actually limit to a proper 30. Interesting.

And also odd that they didn't notice it / couldn't fix it given its prevalence.

Ghosts on PS4 had this problem, made it unplayable at times. Hopefully a patch can fix it.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

This is a 1080p title, right?

 

[Lord Error]

Therefore implying the game is going above 30... but not knowing how to actually limit to a proper 30. Interesting.

And also odd that they didn't notice it / couldn't fix it given its prevalence.

Exactly, I think this problem only happens during times when the game renders above 30FPS. I think a lot of people are more or less immune to noticing this problem, similar to how microstutter on PC drives some crazy, and others can't even acknowledge it exists.

edit: you are saying it is reshowing a previous frame? DF is saying that it is doubling the previous frame.. aka 3 refreshes in total of the same image.

This is making me wish DF wrote exactly what they meant. Better yet... I will just download some raw footage and see how it is.

No, it's showing two discrete frames for 1/60s each, then repeats both again. So during your 2/30s interval you get two unique images just as you should, but they are ordered wrong. Instead of
11 22
they go
12 12
where each individual digit (1 or 2) is a frame that shows during a 1/60s interval. This is what I remember them showing during NFS frame analysis at least.

 

[Pezus]

Sounds like something that can be fixed for the most part. Good

 

[Zombie James]

This is a 1080p title, right?

Of course.

 

[Dictator93]

No, it's showing two discrete frames for 1/60s each, then repeats both again. So during your 2/30s interval you get two unique images just as you should, but they are ordered wrong. Instead of
11 22
they go
12 12
where each digit is a frame that shows during a 1/60s interval. This is what I remember them showing during NFS frame analysis at least.

Hrmmmmmmm

My brain is mush. I am going to download a gamersyde vid and do some frame stepping to see how frames repeat.

 

[Seanspeed]

Exactly, I think this problem only happens during times when the game renders above 30FPS. I think a lot of people are more or less immune to noticing this problem, similar to how microstutter on PC drives some crazy, and others can't even acknowledge it exists.

You could say the same thing about framerate drops or resolution differences. Everybody has different tolerances for these things.

I was under the impression that the frames *weren't* being delivered on time, though. Which is the problem. There are 30 frames per second, but they are not spaced properly with the refresh rate?

 

[Kandrick]

Sounds like something that can be fixed for the most part. Good

Diablo 3 on PS4 had frame pacing issues too that got fixed. The question is, will From Software fix it.

 

[potam]

Stuttering, framerate drops despite being a 30fps game...but everything's A-OK somehow?

 

[Lord Error]

You could say the same thing about framerate drops or resolution differences. Everybody has different tolerances for these things.

Of course. This just seems like one of those things that most people seem to have a very high tolerance for, because clearly not even technical directors at Bungie for example couldn't be bothered to do something about it for so many years. I think they dragged this problem since Halo 3, and only resolved it with Destiny (only after someone else pointed it to them).

I was under the impression that the frames *weren't* being delivered on time, though. Which is the problem. There are 30 frames per second, but they are not spaced properly with the refresh rate?

Correct. When frames are not delivered on time that can't be labeled as a frame pacing issue, and is just a good old framerate / performance problem. However, that's not the case here.

 

[Jacksinthe]

But that's not what's happening here. Everything is rendered on time, but there is an error in 1/60hz frame repetition, which is, if anything, happening because the frames are rendered faster than 30FPS. This post explained it the best:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=157266463&postcount=300


No, because what you underlined is not what's happening. The actual thing that's happening is something like:
11 22 33 45 45 66
There are always unique 30 frames, and they are always delivered on time, but their repetition is shuffled.

Ohhh I'm misunderstanding. People were saying the game drops below 30 which would mean increased frame times. What is being said is the game is above 30, but renders 1/2 a frame earlier than needed, which still doesn't make much sense since that means frames are being spat out at 16.6ms but the game is capped at 33.3, if a frame jumps ahead of queue it renders the next 60hz polling update and not between, resulting in tearing. Which it shouldn't unless there is a bug.

This means the game, at least some frames, can hit 60fps benchmark at 16.6ms but not all frames. This is curious. I misunderstood based on people saying the game dropped performance, which could just be visible judder like in Destiny.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Of course.

I just need to ask, because I've seen other titles at less than 1080p and that's just not acceptable.

Thank you!

 

[-griffy-]

No, it's showing two discrete frames for 1/60s each, then repeats both again. So during your 2/30s interval you get two unique images just as you should, but they are ordered wrong. Instead of
11 22
they go
12 12
where each individual digit (1 or 2) is a frame that shows during a 1/60s interval. This is what I remember them showing during NFS frame analysis at least.

I don't think this is right, that would mean it's going rapidly back and forth in time which would give an almost strobe like effect, which isn't happening.

It's not repeating a full cycle, it's repeating an individual frame which is causing a judder because the frames aren't on screen for the same amount of time.

It's not
12 12
it's
12 22
and it should be
11 22

It's displaying one frame early, thereby cutting the first frame off early, and then keeping that second frame on during it's "normal" slot, so it's on too long.

 

[Cels]

Stuttering, framerate drops despite being a 30fps game...but everything's A-OK somehow?

a game can be enjoyable in spite of technical issues, which seems to be the case here. no one is glossing over the technical issues or pretending they don't exist.

 

[Lord Error]

Ohhh I'm misunderstanding. People were saying the game drops below 30 which would mean increased frame times.

That's a separate issue. There are times where the game drops below 30, but that's during typical overload situations where too much crap happens at once, and from what DF article was saying it happens rarely.

I don't think this is right, that would mean it's going rapidly back and forth in time which would give an almost strobe like effect, which isn't happening.

It's not repeating a full cycle, it's repeating an individual frame which is causing a judder because the frames aren't on screen for the same amount of time.

It's not
12 12
it's
12 22

I think the strobe like effect was exactly what was happening in NFS.

 

[Ape]

If they dropped it to 900p do you guys think it would be a solid 30fps without any hiccups? Seems silly to sacrifice performance for resolution if that's the case.

 

[-griffy-]

I think the strobe like effect was exactly what was happening in NFS.

Maybe, I don't know, but that's not what was happening in Destiny and I'm sure it's not what's happening here.

 

[Orayn]

If they dropped it to 900p do you guys think it would be a solid 30fps without any hiccups? Seems silly to sacrifice performance for resolution if that's the case.

It's a From game, it probably would have had some performance drops no matter the resolution.

 

[Seanspeed]

I don't think this is right, that would mean it's going rapidly back and forth in time which would give an almost strobe like effect, which isn't happening.

It's not repeating a full cycle, it's repeating an individual frame which is causing a judder because the frames aren't on screen for the same amount of time.

It's not
12 12
it's
12 22
and it should be
11 22

It's displaying one frame early, thereby cutting the first frame off early, and then keeping that second frame on during it's "normal" slot, so it's on too long.

This is how I understood it as well.

If they dropped it to 900p do you guys think it would be a solid 30fps without any hiccups? Seems silly to sacrifice performance for resolution if that's the case.

The IQ is already a bit of a travesty as it is...

 

[Inuhanyou]

Stuttering, framerate drops despite being a 30fps game...but everything's A-OK somehow?

The actual framerate drops are fairly uncommon. The frame pacing issues on the other hand are what people are noting. Luckily the latter is relatively an easy fix based on other developers fixing that same issue in current gen games

 

[blastprocessor]

Frame pacing issues? How does a bug like that happen and QA not pick it up? (((

 

[Dragonborn]

The framerate is definitely very iffy, but I've come to expect it in regards to souls games. Outside of that, the game is to good for this to even matter right now

 

[Lord Error]

This is how I understood it as well.

It probably is that. The important thing to point out is that a single 1/60 frame is rendered/displayed too soon, and then repeated twice. So this never happens:

11 22 23 44 55

but this does:

11 23 33 44 55

 

[martino]

:/
expected but still disapointing

 

[CaptNink]

Stuttering, framerate drops despite being a 30fps game...but everything's A-OK somehow?

Yeah - I just don't get it.

 

[SpokkX]

Hmm so it is either of the following

1. The ORDER of the frames are wrong

12 12 33 44 56 56

2. First frame are displayed to long

11 12 33 44 55 56

3. Following frame is displayed to early

12 22 33 44 56 66

If it is the first one it should be easily fixed since for every 30hz refresh both frames ARE available, just the wrong one is chosen. Likewise the second one should be easily fixed. If it is the third one the next frame is perhaps not available and thus not as easily patched

Does anyone know which is the issue?

 

[Vire]

It's amazing how From Software continues to be so incompetent from a technical side of things.

They are fortunate they have some of the best artists, animators and designers in the world on their team to pick up the slack.

I hope the frame pacing, load and aliasing is improved in the future.

 

[Orayn]

Yeah - I just don't get it.

Who is saying that everything is fine? Reviews have noted performance issues. People are saying that they don't like the stuttering and they hope it gets patched. In spite of all that, the game remains playable and very good. Comparisons to AC Unity are disingenuous because this game doesn't have the same problems.

If it is the first one it should be easily fixed since for every 30hz refresh both frames ARE available, just the wrong one is chosen. If it is the second one the next frame is perhaps not available and thus not as easily patched

Does anyone know which is the issue?

Fairly sure it's the second, the first would look extremely weird and be far more obvious.

On the plus side, it's probably not too hard to patch because this sort of judder can be caused by frames getting done with time to spare and being displayed too early, rather than it being a symptom of frames that turn up late.

 

[pixlexic]

Who is saying that everything is fine? Reviews have noted performance issues. People are saying that they don't like the stuttering. In spite of all that, the game remains playable and very good. Comparisons to AC Unity are disingenuous because this game doesn't have the same problems.

right. If you could play through ds 1 and 2 on 360 and ps3 with no problem you definitely will not have an issue here.

 

[EGM1966]

Sounds about in line with their previous releases. Every From game I've played since Demons Souls has felt flaky technically.

Would like to see 'em patch it with both more Optimization plus frame pacing fixed.

Sadly I won't be able to play it for another 12 days so hopefully they can do so before then.