Halo 5 Guardians: #huntthetruth

Captain Zyrain said:
Yeah, it's literally hard for me to understand the complaint from people who say they feel lost without the extended universe info.. since I already know it. I am unable to understand from their point of view, which makes discussions about it hard.

For Halo 4, I had read the books, so I somewhat knew what to expect, but I can't really understand why it would be so confusing, as the Chief was unaware of the books contents, so I felt like non-book readers would be placed in 117's shoes. The build up to the release of the Didact was a big unknown, releasing him should have been a big surprise. I guess maybe the Librarian info was a shot from left field? I guess I can see that being confusing as it had only ever been lightly referenced in the Terminals previously.

The Didact was COMPOSED at the end of Escalation, not killed. I didn't get that the first time I read it either.
It remains to be seen if that will come into play in Halo 5 or not, but like you said, at the end of Halo 4 the Didact could have been killed
or composed
so it wouldn't be a huge shock for people who only played the games.

The big news (universe wise) is that
Gamma Halo
got zipped off somewhere, though we don't know if that will be brought up in Halo 5 or not.

As I said before, I love all the extended fiction, and am super glad to see it be brought into the mainstream games, I just hope they can do so in a way that 'reintroduces' the characters in a proper way for newcomers alike.
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Yup, thats a good point. Outside of the Master Chief story, the extended universe doesn't really add much context, as Master Chief doesn't know about whats happening either. So considering were in his footsteps, whatever he learns we will learn too. Also
the Didact got composed!? So what does that mean, he has his own promethean-esque knight body? Again doesn't really make a difference anyways, if he comes back, it will still prove to be a shock to H4 players, and extended universe readers alike.

RandyBobandy said:
Holy fuck boys..

Didn't think I would be, but I'm pretty pumped for Halo 5. Yet I know next to nothing about it. Was it ever said if Arbiter or The Flood are returning? I know Locke had that cutscene with Arbiter, but I need more Keith David
Click to expand...

I think its almost 100% that the Arbiter will be involved in Halo 5 in some shape or form, especially because we know he's had that dialogue with Locke in H2:A cinematic, also because we are visiting his planet (which I believe he is the leader of?).
 
FollowTheWind said:
Yup, thats a good point. Outside of the Master Chief story, the extended universe doesn't really add much context, as Master Chief doesn't know about whats happening either. So considering were in his footsteps, whatever he learns we will learn too. Also
the Didact got composed!? So what does that mean, he has his own promethean-esque knight body? Again doesn't really make a difference anyways, if he comes back, it will still prove to be a shock to H4 players, and extended universe readers alike.
Click to expand...

Yeah,
from what we know, he doesn't neccesarily need to go into a Promethean body, but where else he could go is a mystery? 117 says "he's contained" at the end of the issue, whatever that means. I don't think they'll use him in Halo 5, but I guess you never know. Maybe the flying bird robot is him :)

FollowTheWind said:
I think its almost 100% that the Arbiter will be involved in Halo 5 in some shape or form, especially because we know he's had that dialogue with Locke in H2:A cinematic, also because we are visiting his planet (which I believe he is the leader of?).
Click to expand...

Yeah, he's the head of one faction on Sanghelios, there are others. I would assume they'd explain some details about the planet/Arbiter in the game.. probably as a mission briefing or something.

[Edit: Skrew'd up quoting]
 
i have no problem with Chief being some type of "Chosen One" with the geas

im not too fond of chosen one plots, but i feel like its been mentioned before in earlier halo games and books that Chief has a great destiny,

what is this so called "luck"
 
CRIMSONxSERAPH said:
See, the problem is that the theory of Chief having the Iso-Didact's geas and being something similar to a "chosen one" goes all the way back to Halo: CE and a statement that 343GS told Chief. That statement held immense power and bright much theories and confusion all of these years with no clear answer until Halo: Silentium, which tied so much together.

Along with that, even in Halo Legends we find by Cortana that Chief has a great destiny ahead of him. Simply having "luck" isn't enough to create a destiny, but rather just a greater chance for one.

The ground work has been paid since the beginnings of Halo under the care of Bungie; 343i has just embraced it as opposed to shying away from it.

You may want elusive and vague backstory with "luck" playing a major role, but I personally would much prefer having a cohesive and well thought out universe to delve into and immerse myself in.
Click to expand...

It doesn't "go back to CE". Meaning that was never intended was retroactively applied to that conversation. The original intent of that line was merely that 343 saw all "Reclaimers" and Forerunners as one thing (either by rampancy or other reasons), not that he somehow sensed the essence of some long-gone Forerunner he once knew. It's cool and all that 343i has gone back and drawn all these intricately connected lines between everything, but I don't like that they've done it by shoehorning "destiny" into everything. I love pretty much everything to come out of 343i so far (Halo 4 is probably my second favorite Halo and I loved the Forerunner saga), but that is one thing in particular I've never been a fan of. "Destiny" is and always has been a cheap explanation for events, one that artificially places weight and meaning on everything in an attempt to drum up something "grander". The results are rarely ever actually earned and the ultimate result is a cheapened character.

And really, your last comment is nonsense. You can have a cohesive and well thought out universe without relying on destiny and chosen one tropes. And the thing is, the reasons for Chief's success were never something that needed some deep explanation spanning 100,000 years of careful planning. We knew why Chief was what he was. He was lucky. There might not be some intricate explanation for his luck, but there doesn't need to be. That's the entire hook. He's not the strongest, the smartest, the best shot, the fastest. He's just lucky. That's simple, interesting, and requires no real explanation. I'm not sure how "Well you see he's the best because 100,000 years ago a giant grey space lady decided that..." is somehow significantly better, especially since it winds up being a drastically more convoluted reasoning that's ultimately unnecessary.

And the thing is the plans of the Librarian and the actions of the Forerunners prior to the activation of the array can still be important, well thought out, and well connected to the modern day without "she specifically planned for Catherine Halsey to born in 99,940 years, with the idea for a Smart AI and Spartans built into her brain, and a guy named John in 99,960 who's destined to be bad-ass, and then she'll find him and make him a Spartan and give him said AI so he can fight the Librarian's husband who was locked away for being a dick and will also happen to start to break free right when the planned bad-ass passes his orbit". Without the few key lines that directly bring up this destiny aspect, you still have the same basic overall story. It all still fits and works. The Forerunner's guiding hand can still be there, just not QUITE as omnipresent as a couple conversations make it seem. But as is it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and diminishes the actions of Chief (and Halsey, and humanity in general) because hey, he was destined to do this.

Honestly, they could very easily have not included this "chain of destiny" while still arriving at the same overall state of the universe too, which is why I hope they don't focus on the destiny aspect too much.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
It doesn't "go back to CE". Meaning that was never intended was retroactively applied to that conversation. The original intent of that line was merely that 343 saw all "Reclaimers" and Forerunners as one thing (either by rampancy or other reasons), not that he somehow sensed the essence of some long-gone Forerunner he once knew. It's cool and all that 343i has gone back and drawn all these intricately connected lines between everything, but I don't like that they've done it by shoehorning "destiny" into everything. I love pretty much everything to come out of 343i so far (Halo 4 is probably my second favorite Halo and I loved the Forerunner saga), but that is one thing in particular I've never been a fan of. "Destiny" is and always has been a cheap explanation for events, one that artificially places weight and meaning on everything in an attempt to drum up something "grander". The results are rarely ever actually earned and the ultimate result is a cheapened character.

And really, your last comment is nonsense. You can have a cohesive and well thought out universe without relying on destiny and chosen one tropes. And the thing is, the reasons for Chief's success were never something that needed some deep explanation spanning 100,000 years of careful planning. We knew why Chief was what he was. He was lucky. There might not be some intricate explanation for his luck, but there doesn't need to be. That's the entire hook. He's not the strongest, the smartest, the best shot, the fastest. He's just lucky. That's simple, interesting, and requires no real explanation. I'm not sure how "Well you see he's the best because 100,000 years ago a giant grey space lady decided that..." is somehow significantly better, especially since it winds up being a drastically more convoluted reasoning that's ultimately unnecessary.

And the thing is the plans of the Librarian and the actions of the Forerunners prior to the activation of the array can still be important, well thought out, and well connected to the modern day without "she specifically planned for Catherine Halsey to born in 99,940 years, with the idea for a Smart AI and Spartans built into her brain, and a guy named John in 99,960 who's destined to be bad-ass, and then she'll find him and make him a Spartan and give him said AI so he can fight the Librarian's husband who was locked away for being a dick and will also happen to start to break free right when the planned bad-ass passes his orbit". Without the few key lines that directly bring up this destiny aspect, you still have the same basic overall story. It all still fits and works. The Forerunner's guiding hand can still be there, just not QUITE as omnipresent as a couple conversations make it seem. But as is it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and diminishes the actions of Chief (and Halsey, and humanity in general) because hey, he was destined to do this.

Honestly, they could very easily have not included this "chain of destiny" while still arriving at the same overall state of the universe too, which is why I hope they don't focus on the destiny aspect too much.
Click to expand...

Chief has the greatest legacy of any soldier ever in the UNSC not just Spartans, in terms of accomplishments...how did he survive all this time...there has to be a greater explanation then "luck"
 
RadioHammer500 said:
Chief has the greatest legacy of any soldier ever in the UNSC not just Spartans, in terms of accomplishments...how did he survive all this time...there has to be a greater explanation then "luck"
Click to expand...

1) Why? Why can't he just be better due to some inexplicable x-factor ("luck" was only ever a shorthand for that anyway - Halsey said "luck" is bullshit, but whatever Chief had was impossible to quantify in simple terms, so it might as well be called luck)? Audie Murphy didn't need alien magic to be who he was, he just was. "Destiny" and "chosen one" stories get thrown around so much that they mean nothing - they're just a bullshit way to say why there hero is so special, when it's extremely rare that said heroes need some real explanation. Look at Frodo and Sam - they weren't "destined" to destroy the ring and save the world. They were just two good, strong-willed hobbits. And hey, that works. No one's saying "but WHY were they the ones that destroyed the ring?", just like how before now no one asked "but what is the REAL reason Chief is a good solider?". On the other hand you have Vader's midi-chlorian counts, immaculate conception, and chosen one prophecy. Eye roll.

2) Since when has "Because it was his destiny" ever been a "greater explanation"? Like I said, it actually cheapens his accomplishments. It means he didn't "accomplish" anything, he just "acted out his destiny" imposed upon him by an alien 100 centuries earlier. It means none of his accomplishments were ever his, there were all just inevitable steps in someone else's plans.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
It doesn't "go back to CE". Meaning that was never intended was retroactively applied to that conversation. The original intent of that line was merely that 343 saw all "Reclaimers" and Forerunners as one thing (either by rampancy or other reasons), not that he somehow sensed the essence of some long-gone Forerunner he once knew. It's cool and all that 343i has gone back and drawn all these intricately connected lines between everything, but I don't like that they've done it by shoehorning "destiny" into everything. I love pretty much everything to come out of 343i so far (Halo 4 is probably my second favorite Halo and I loved the Forerunner saga), but that is one thing in particular I've never been a fan of. "Destiny" is and always has been a cheap explanation for events, one that artificially places weight and meaning on everything in an attempt to drum up something "grander". The results are rarely ever actually earned and the ultimate result is a cheapened character.

And really, your last comment is nonsense. You can have a cohesive and well thought out universe without relying on destiny and chosen one tropes. And the thing is, the reasons for Chief's success were never something that needed some deep explanation spanning 100,000 years of careful planning. We knew why Chief was what he was. He was lucky. There might not be some intricate explanation for his luck, but there doesn't need to be. That's the entire hook. He's not the strongest, the smartest, the best shot, the fastest. He's just lucky. That's simple, interesting, and requires no real explanation. I'm not sure how "Well you see he's the best because 100,000 years ago a giant grey space lady decided that..." is somehow significantly better, especially since it winds up being a drastically more convoluted reasoning that's ultimately unnecessary.

And the thing is the plans of the Librarian and the actions of the Forerunners prior to the activation of the array can still be important, well thought out, and well connected to the modern day without "she specifically planned for Catherine Halsey to born in 99,940 years, with the idea for a Smart AI and Spartans built into her brain, and a guy named John in 99,960 who's destined to be bad-ass, and then she'll find him and make him a Spartan and give him said AI so he can fight the Librarian's husband who was locked away for being a dick and will also happen to start to break free right when the planned bad-ass passes his orbit". Without the few key lines that directly bring up this destiny aspect, you still have the same basic overall story. It all still fits and works. The Forerunner's guiding hand can still be there, just not QUITE as omnipresent as a couple conversations make it seem. But as is it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and diminishes the actions of Chief (and Halsey, and humanity in general) because hey, he was destined to do this.

Honestly, they could very easily have not included this "chain of destiny" while still arriving at the same overall state of the universe too, which is why I hope they don't focus on the destiny aspect too much.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not wanting "destiny" in its common definition to be the thread of what happens to Chief. Instead of "destiny", I like the word/idea of "plan". Let me explain:

As I mentioned before, the overarching plan of humanity attaining the Mantle is not something that is destined to happen to where it cannot be stopped. Instead, it is the desired plan, first by the Precursors, and then by the Librarian (et al? maybe Mendicant Bias as well?). Yet, we've seen where both the Precursor's initial plan, and the Librarian's later plan have both gone differently than initially predicted. Obviously, the Precursors did not see the Forerunners fighting against them for the right of the Mantle. Likewise, the Librarian actually planned for the Ur-Didact to aid Chief in bringing humanity to achieve the Mantle (with the aid of the Janus Key). However, the Librarian did not predict that the firing of the Halo array would sever the Ur-Didact's connection to the Domain and thus cause his isolated confinement would instead leave him boiling in his thoughts of hatred toward humanity. We further see that the Librarian has alternate methods to attempt to achieve her ultimate goal, but it's unknown how much else of her initial plan has potentially been altered because of the Ur-Didact's lack of cooperation.

Ultimately, it's been proven that no species, whether Forerunner or Precursor, has actual omniscience such as we typically think. Therefore, the "destiny" that Chief is fulfilling is more of a greatly thought-out plan, and is not a ploy that he (or anyone else) has no control over stopping. In fact, you could argue that even with the Librarian's tinkering and plannings, because of varying factors, Chief's luck possibly has and will play a large part in solidifying the Librarian's goals. We don't know but what his potential geas of the Iso-Didact alone may still not have been/will be enough to achieve the goal for humanity, but what Chief's own luck will have been/will be the deciding factor.


Tl;dr - My assertion: Chief's "destiny" isn't a destiny so much as a largely cohesive but still fallible (as proven in Halo 4) plan that still requires his luck to succeed in bringing humanity to attain the Mantle, even if he also requires a geas (possibly of the Iso-Didact).
 
Is that lady in Episode 04 Cobie Smulders?!

cobie_smulders.jpg
 
CRIMSONxSERAPH said:
[snipped to cut down on text walls]

Tl;dr - My assertion: Chief's "destiny" isn't a destiny so much as a largely cohesive but still fallible (as proven in Halo 4) plan that still requires his luck to succeed in bringing humanity to attain the Mantle, even if he also requires a geas (possibly of the Iso-Didact).
Click to expand...

See, I am fine with there being a broader Forerunner plan though. I like that Librarian had these great schemes planned out, and that she, in various ways, guided humanity from beyond the grave. I'm even ok with the fact that she effectively engineered humanity to achieve its former greatness in general (and then some). My issue lies specifically in the fact that John, his training, his skills, his armor, his partnership with Cortana, and ultimately his success were specifically planned. It is good that the plan is not so rigid that he's literally acting out a play scene-by-scene, but based what we've seen and heard and what's been hinted, it seems still too close to that scenario for me. Even if he has to rely on his luck factor when the Librarian's plans fail, it comes off as that luck being destined as well anyway. Ultimately he's the specific outcome of a specific plan and I'm just not a huge fan of that.

That said, despite the amount I've written in the last few posts, this isn't some thing I'm furious about and can't deal with and will forever hate 343i or some nonsense. :P In the general sense I'm happy with where 343i are taking things and I've been loving the massive of expansion of the Halo universe we've been seeing lately. Like I said, Halo 4 is one of my favorite Halos and I LOVE the Greg Bear books. Just felt I should reiterate that in case anyone thinks I'm uber down on the series or something haha. It's just one little thing that irks me a bit.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
See, I am fine with there being a broader Forerunner plan though. I like that Librarian had these great schemes planned out, and that she, in various ways, guided humanity from beyond the grave. I'm even ok with the fact that she effectively engineered humanity to achieve its former greatness in general (and then some). My issue lies specifically in the fact that John, his training, his skills, his armor, his partnership with Cortana, and ultimately his success were specifically planned. It is good that the plan is not so rigid that he's literally acting out a play scene-by-scene, but based what we've seen and heard and what's been hinted, it seems still too close to that scenario for me. Even if he has to rely on his luck factor when the Librarian's plans fail, it comes off as that luck being destined as well anyway. Ultimately he's the specific outcome of a specific plan and I'm just not a huge fan of that.
Click to expand...

I've felt that John-117, Cortana, Halsey etc were eventualities for the Librarian's plan. That they themselves were not planned, but someone with their capabilities were.

Cortana interfacing directly with John-117 was a big thing, as it was basically an AI getting back into a physical brain.

Until we really know (or are told) the in's and out's of how the librarians plan worked, it's impossible to really judge. I'd feel a little cheated if all of humanities achievements and progress were all just pre-determined 'steps', but at the same time maybe I wouldn't mind if perhaps the 'big leaps' were nudged or inspired by some deep genesong? The wheel.. nuclear weapons.. Shaw-Fujikawa FTL drives.. AI..

It's all interesting, just curious to see what parts will play out in the games.
 
Captain Zyrain said:
I've felt that John-117, Cortana, Halsey etc were eventualities for the Librarian's plan. That they themselves were not planned, but someone with their capabilities were.

Cortana interfacing directly with John-117 was a big thing, as it was basically an AI getting back into a physical brain.
Click to expand...

This was exactly how I understood it.
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
And the thing is the plans of the Librarian and the actions of the Forerunners prior to the activation of the array can still be important, well thought out, and well connected to the modern day without "she specifically planned for Catherine Halsey to born in 99,940 years, with the idea for a Smart AI and Spartans built into her brain, and a guy named John in 99,960 who's destined to be bad-ass, and then she'll find him and make him a Spartan and give him said AI so he can fight the Librarian's husband who was locked away for being a dick and will also happen to start to break free right when the planned bad-ass passes his orbit". Without the few key lines that directly bring up this destiny aspect, you still have the same basic overall story. It all still fits and works. The Forerunner's guiding hand can still be there, just not QUITE as omnipresent as a couple conversations make it seem. But as is it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and diminishes the actions of Chief (and Halsey, and humanity in general) because hey, he was destined to do this.

Honestly, they could very easily have not included this "chain of destiny" while still arriving at the same overall state of the universe too, which is why I hope they don't focus on the destiny aspect too much.
Click to expand...
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
See, I am fine with there being a broader Forerunner plan though. I like that Librarian had these great schemes planned out, and that she, in various ways, guided humanity from beyond the grave. I'm even ok with the fact that she effectively engineered humanity to achieve its former greatness in general (and then some). My issue lies specifically in the fact that John, his training, his skills, his armor, his partnership with Cortana, and ultimately his success were specifically planned. It is good that the plan is not so rigid that he's literally acting out a play scene-by-scene, but based what we've seen and heard and what's been hinted, it seems still too close to that scenario for me. Even if he has to rely on his luck factor when the Librarian's plans fail, it comes off as that luck being destined as well anyway. Ultimately he's the specific outcome of a specific plan and I'm just not a huge fan of that..
Click to expand...
I don't like the idea that things were so specifically planned either, but I also never got the impression from Halo 4 that they were. To me what the Librarian said is similar to me saying that you, neogaf poster WhiteRabbitEXE, are the culmination of billions of years of evolution. You are, but so is every other neogaf poster. Similarly, it could have been a different Spartan with a different AI and the Librarian would have said the same thing; that they are the culmination of science and evolution that she planned for humanity to achieve. The idea that she was talking specifically about the Chief (and by extension, that it's because he has her husband's personality/DNA locked within him) is something that I see a lot people assume as a given without providing much supporting evidence for.
Captain Zyrain said:
I've felt that John-117, Cortana, Halsey etc were eventualities for the Librarian's plan. That they themselves were not planned, but someone with their capabilities were.

Cortana interfacing directly with John-117 was a big thing, as it was basically an AI getting back into a physical brain.

Until we really know (or are told) the in's and out's of how the librarians plan worked, it's impossible to really judge. I'd feel a little cheated if all of humanities achievements and progress were all just pre-determined 'steps', but at the same time maybe I wouldn't mind if perhaps the 'big leaps' were nudged or inspired by some deep genesong? The wheel.. nuclear weapons.. Shaw-Fujikawa FTL drives.. AI..

It's all interesting, just curious to see what parts will play out in the games.
Click to expand...
This. The similarities between the Spartans and Forerunner soldiers suggests there were specific elements encouraged (augmentations, "combat skin", "ancilla") but that doesn't mean complete determinism.
 
RadioHammer500 said:
Chief has the greatest legacy of any soldier ever in the UNSC not just Spartans, in terms of accomplishments...how did he survive all this time...there has to be a greater explanation then "luck"
Click to expand...

My explanation is a bit meta, but I had the thought that it's not that he survives so much, but that the character that survives the most cool crap was chosen to be followed through the story. Does that make sense?

Like, the games could have followed someone that died at first contact. But then, that would end really fast. The reason Chief is the main character, is because he's a survivor.

It's like saying...I dunno...Why don't we exist in a universe that harbours no life? Well, if we did we would not be around to observe how the universe does not harbour life, so by necessity we have to exist in one that harbours life to even have such a thought.

I know it doesn't make sense strictly in-universe and we have to break the fourth wall a bit (a lot of a bit) for that to work.

Anywho, not to take either side on the Forerunner planning explanation, just to get needlessly meta.

A More Normal Bird said:
I don't like the idea that things were so specifically planned either, but I also never got the impression from Halo 4 that they were. To me what the Librarian said is similar to me saying that you, neogaf poster WhiteRabbitEXE, are the culmination of billions of years of evolution. You are, but so is every other neogaf poster. Similarly, it could have been a different Spartan with a different AI and the Librarian would have said the same thing; that they are the culmination of science and evolution that she planned for humanity to achieve. The idea that she was talking specifically about the Chief (and by extension, that it's because he has her husband's personality/DNA locked within him) is something that I see a lot people assume as a given without providing much supporting evidence for.
.
Click to expand...



Yeah, this is my thought as well. She didn't plan for a John, she didn't plan for a Halsey. She simply pushed humanity in the direction of creating such beings as the Spartans (I wonder...Does that mean she caused human wars?). That one makes a lot more sense, there are too many variables to plan for individuals. Chaos theory, butterfly shitting a hurricane and all that. It could have been Derpina-120 and AI What Are The Civilian Applications? (Yo...Black Box would love the Culture Mind names) just as easy as John and Cortana.
 
Did anyone else catch the 1 second clip of Chief putting on armor from the keynote earlier? It was during the Windows 10 sizzle video.
 
Maybe I'm out of the loop but does anyone think we'll see a reprise of Lord Hood/Ron Perlman in Halo 5? Is he still the de-facto "leader" of the UNSC at this point?
 
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