LGBTQIA+ :)OT6(: We’re taking over -- first the alphabet, then the world!

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berzeli said:
I'm not denying US influence over gay culture (or culture in general) but the culture which he is describing is specific in more than one instance to the US. Also the modern gay rights movement didn't actually start in the US, I think it is the Netherlands who gets that honour.

The central problem with the article is not that he assigns gay as a more of a cultural label, but that it is his label and that people who do not fall into what he (and he alone) dictates as gay have no business calling themselves as such. The author is so incapable of emphasising with someone who does not share his experiences and preferences that he doesn't understand why they would like to decorate their apartment differently. It is a piece which deserves nothing but mockery and scorn.
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I didn't get this at all; in fact, he said pretty early on he had little issue with people disassociating themselves with the elaborate gay culture he was describing. He seemed to be concerned with the dying out of gay culture, which, judging by the number of gay dudes who want to distance themselves from any kind of femininity, is a legitimate concern. He does have a sort of disdainful tone towards these types of people, sure, but his concerns are legit.

I find it kind of...I guess funny(? in an ironic way) how quickly (especially younger gays) seem to have turned heel on any kind of gender-queerness. Especially considering all the freedoms they are now enjoying were built on the backs of all those queens who couldn't hide being gay.

At the same time, I find it difficult to fault these dudes who are only into totallyMASCBRAHs because it feels like judging people for liking what they like is hypocritical.

Overall, I don't know about the article. It just seems like a wistful look back at (possibly) dying camp culture with no real suggestions on how to keep it going.

I feel like I'm personally sort of in the middle of what he describes as being gay and what that new breed of MASCBRAHs are, but I still enjoy a lot of things that are considered stereotypically gay. I know I was apprehensive about drag shows until I actually went to one and found out they're mostly like a (somewhat) sexually charged comedy routine. I'd encourage younger gay dudes to at least give it a shot, they're fun :). I think exposure to gay people and activities is important especially if you have any lingering apprehension with your sexuality.
 
Captcha said:
He seemed to be concerned with the dying out of gay culture, which, judging by the number of gay dudes who want to distance themselves from any kind of femininity, is a legitimate concern. He does have a sort of disdainful tone towards these types of people, sure, but his concerns are legit.
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Why is it a concern? I think it's a good thing that you can say "I'm gay" without having to feel shoehorned into any stereotype or culture, and that doesn't mean it's wrong to be a stereotypical gay either. He honestly sounds a bit antagonistic against gay people who are not like him.
 
RM8 said:
Why is it a concern? I think it's a good thing that you can say "I'm gay" without having to feel shoehorned into any stereotype or culture, and that doesn't mean it's wrong to be a stereotypical gay either. He honestly sounds a bit antagonistic against gay people who are not like him.
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The death of any culture is concerning because there is value to be had whether you choose to subscribe to it or not. Of course, everyone is free to do what they want and I wasn't implying anyone should be forced to participate or feel bad if they don't.
 
Then we agree for the most part. In the end it's a good thing that people are not forced to join any "gay culture" - which I personally don't see in the same light as, say, the culture of an old civilization or a small country or tribe. History, traditions, languages - those are worth preserving. Britney Spears and interior decoration? Those things will live even without any gay association :P
 
I've never really felt like I fit in with "gay culture", especially in gay bars and such.

The problem is that I don't feel like I fit in with "straight culture" either.
 
I don't feel like I fit in either. I'm hesitant to call myself gay or embrace the label. Henceforth, ever since I learned about pomosexuality I prefer referring to myself as a pomosexual.
 
Razmos said:
I've never really felt like I fit in with "gay culture", especially in gay bars and such.

The problem is that I don't feel like I fit in with "straight culture" either.
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What about the bars don't you like? I don't particularly like bars/clubs, but I also hate hook-up apps, so if I need some dick I roll with it. You can find more laid back places if you look! Although if you don't drink or something ignore me.

HippieHobo said:
I don't feel like I fit in either. I'm hesitant to call myself gay or embrace the label. Henceforth, ever since I learned about pomosexuality I prefer referring to myself as a pomosexual.
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Is that like a gay cheerleader? I can NOT keep up with all these animals, and letters, and labels. Keep it simple, gays ｡゜(｀Д´)゜｡
 
Captcha said:
What about the bars don't you like? I don't particularly like bars/clubs, but I also hate hook-up apps, so if I need some dick I roll with it. You can find more laid back places if you look! Although if you don't drink or something ignore me.



Is that like a gay cheerleader? I can NOT keep up with all these animals, and letters, and labels. Keep it simple, gays ｡゜(｀Д´)゜｡
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i thought it was a sexual adventure with pomegranates.
 
Mumei said:
Did anyone else read this article? It's an extended essay on gay cultural history, and the idea that "being gay" has historically meant something different than just your sexual orientation, but "comprises a set of markers or values or practices that manifest themselves in the spaces and objects and relationships that gay men create."

As the author says, this view is currently anathema in the gay community, but even if you don't think there is anything distinctive about gayness beyond who you're attracted to, it is still a fascinating article about the history of the gay community as a cultural phenomenon and quasi-ethnic group in the twentieth century that I strongly recommend reading.
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I've always identified as gay and homosexual, but I've also always disdained the word homosexual because it (seems to me that it) reduces gay people to only their sexuality and nothing else. At the same time, I've realized that I also spurn a lot of gay culture and mannerisms and stereotypes. It gave rise to an inner conflict where I realized I can't really think both being "gay" and "homosexual" are bad.

I think this is a great article. While it's obvious that the author is interested in gay culture and celebrates said culture incredibly more than I do, he gives a really measured approach for western gays and his audience. He doesn't claim to be a spokesman and he points out that being gay, or presenting gayness, is a form of radical politics of resistance, which I think many people forget. I've always understood that the gays in power (or at least the more affluent gays) are the ones that don't need these radical politics anymore.

I've read quite a few articles lately about how being gay doesn't mean you have to assimilate into a heteronormative culture. This article continues that trend, and I'm starting to transform my thinking about what it means to be gay. Thanks again for the article, Mumei.
 
Captcha said:
What about the bars don't you like? I don't particularly like bars/clubs, but I also hate hook-up apps, so if I need some dick I roll with it. You can find more laid back places if you look! Although if you don't drink or something ignore me.
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I'm a bit confused as to why you'd hate hook-up apps if you want to seek out casual sex.

I dislike hook-up apps but that's largely because I'm a bit more conservative and am uncomfortable with searching for new dick every night, and am more a fan of committed monogamous relationships which Grindr doesn't seem particularly suited for.

But if you do want casual sex very often what's wrong with the app that makes you hate it more than a bar?
 
HippieHobo said:
I always thought it was European countries who were at the front for civil rights for sexual minorities. Up until the early 2000's the US still had Sodomy laws, and in Countries like Sweden, homosexuality was decriminalized in the 40's (if I'm not mistaken).

The US lags behind.
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I do have to read more about it but my basic knowledge was that the US is backward in laws but the movements are older. Europe had nazism actively persecuting and murdering homosexuals up to 1945 when the war ended, and even then they still were jailed under sodomy laws, Sweden and Denmark are exceptions.

Europe has a much more relaxed view on sexuality in general which is why, I guess, the US movements are more notorious, because they were more radical, not to mention more known thanks to Hollywood.

The thing at the end is that there is a lgbt culture, and it didn't appear out of nowhere, lgbt people created it, and there's really nothing wrong with being identified with it, I would love to see some studies about how heterogenous lgbt people really are, because I don't think it will correlate one on one with the general population, and that in no way is a bad thing, it bothers me this obsession some have of being "normal" or "regular", we are queer, we are not "normal", and that is ok, that's the point.
 
Mumei said:
I don't think narrow is the right word. There is no such thing as "gay culture" as an international phenomenon, so it feels uncharitable to me to criticize him for focusing on gay culture as it manifests and has historically been understood where he lives. He acknowledges this - that this specific version is "largely a British/American animal with a studied French accent." He's not making claims to universal applicability. I suspect he sees his article as contributing to a conversation among American gay men about "the end of gay culture," as Andrew Sullivan put it a decade ago, which was also about gay culture as it exists in the United States and the idea that it would no longer be distinguishable from the mainstream or heterosexual culture as homosexuality stopped being important as a social identifier.
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There is a name that I could have done without ever having to see again.

But I do think that "narrow" is exactly the right word, and I vehemently disagree with the notion that there is no gay culture as an international phenomenon and, honestly, do you have anything that backs up that assertion? Taking a look at gay bars, pride parades, and even lady gaga concerts across the world makes it self evident that there is a shared culture, or at minimum shared cultural components.

I'm not criticising him just for discussing gay culture and how it pertains to the specific geographical location at which he resides, but for discussing it as it pertains to him. In the article he is unable to separate how he feels about and sees a culture from how it can be perceived by, say, someone like me. The article and its author seems to be afraid that a subculture, of which he belongs, is declining or dying but doesn't really provide compelling evidence to prove that it is. Yes, gay culture is changing with its increased acceptance, but I don't think that it is fair to say that it is dying. This coupled with a sort of romanisation of what was, makes the issues raised ring hollow.

I also don't think that the claim is shaky at all. It's widely accepted that it was the medicalization in the late nineteenth century that gave homosexuals a discrete identity (they were a specific type of person, rather than just a sinner), and an identity that wasn't wrapped up in condemnatory Biblical sexual mores, and that it was urbanization and industrialization that afforded homosexuals the widespread combination of anonymity and homosocial spaces (e.g. work, men coming into cities to work). It might be possible that there were small, covert gay communities before this time, but if you've read histories of just how visible - they advertised balls in newspapers in the early 1900s - the gay community was in cities like New York, Berlin, London, or Paris at the turn of the century, I think you'll agree that there's a difference of kind and not just degree between the communities we know came about in the late 19th century and the ones we're speculating about.
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I do not disagree about the visibility of the culture or the identity, I'm disagreeing with it being born then and there. Or to maybe make myself a bit clearer on the subject; I do not believe that the core tenets of what we identify as gay culture arose from nothing in the 1800s. It is part of this histor-mythology (sorry, but I can't think of an appropriate term), which embellishes or overlooks certain aspects to create a more compelling narrative. For instance how the Stonewall riots were not the first riot where queer people fought police and how that event, as important and influential as Stonewall really was, should be seen as part of a larger cultural shift. Rather than something which, as I said above, arose from nothing

Is this something he says explicitly and I just missed it, or is this subtext you're reading out of it? I didn't see that.
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It is a very, very obvious subtext. From how he uses words like "amazing" and "wonderfully" to describe those aspects which he likes, via how he says to how those things he lists is "the fundamental practices that constitute a gay way of being in the world" I cannot take away anything but "unless you like and do what I like and do you're not gay". I do not consider his list the be-all and end-all of what constitutes being gay, and when he says:

"A popular approach has been to look for gayness in certain genres, objects, and cultural figures and in our relationship to them—think opera, Judy Garland, interior design, drag queens, disco. This is an understandably satisfying exercise for those who do, in fact, identify with those specific artifacts. But for the young queen who simply can’t get into Joan Crawford, gay canonization is a misguided, unhelpful quest."

he is dismissing "my" gay culture for no other reason that he does not enjoy it or consider it worthwhile.

Captcha said:
I didn't get this at all; in fact, he said pretty early on he had little issue with people disassociation themselves with the elaborate gay culture he was describing. He seemed to be concerned with the dying out of gay culture, which, judging by the number of gay dudes who want to distance themselves from any kind of femininity, is a legitimate concern. He does have a sort of disdainful tone towards these types of people, sure, but his concerns are legit.

I find it kind of...I guess funny(? in an ironic way) how quickly (especially younger gays) seem to have turned heel on any kind of gender-queerness. Especially considering all the freedoms they are now enjoying were built on the backs of all those queens who couldn't hide being gay.

At the same time, I find it difficult to fault these dudes who are only into totallyMASCBRAHs because it feels like judging people for liking what they like is hypocritical.

Overall I don't know about the article. It just seems like a wistful look back at (possibly) dying camp culture with no real suggestions on how to keep it going.

I feel like I'm personally sort of in the middle of what he describes as being gay and what that new breed of MASCBRAHs are, but I still enjoy a lot of things that are considering stereotypically gay. I know I was apprehensive about drag shows until I actually went to one and found out they're mostly like a (somewhat) sexually charged comedy routine. I'd encourage younger gay dudes to at least give it a shot, they're fun :). I think exposure to gay people and activities is important especially if you have any lingering apprehension with your sexuality.
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Look I hate MASCBRAHs as much (or more) than the next person, I'm drawn to androgyny and I'm more than a little effeminate.

My issues with the article comes from that tone that you picked up, it is dismissive as hell and the fact that people are complex and capable of liking different things seems to perplex the author. I don't consider him to be any better than those MASCBRAHs deriding anything more feminine than drinking beer whilst doing push-ups.
 
So, date numero deux tomorrow. He's coming round mine and we're just have a chilled evening. I'm cooking for him this time, we'll have a drink or two, and just talk more and see what happens. Question is, I really only know how to cook pasta dishes but we had a pasta dish at his, so what do I cook him? Chicken? Steak? Oysters?
 
mantidor said:
The thing at the end is that there is a lgbt culture, and it didn't appear out of nowhere, lgbt people created it, and there's really nothing wrong with being identified with it
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I don't think anyone thinks there's anything wrong with being identified with it. Just as there's nothing wrong with not being identified with it. Some LGBT people created it, I'm pretty sure no one asked for my opinion when this "gay culture" was created :P

I would love to see some studies about how heterogenous lgbt people really are, because I don't think it will correlate one on one with the general population, and that in no way is a bad thing, it bothers me this obsession some have of being "normal" or "regular", we are queer, we are not "normal", and that is ok, that's the point.
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Well, I very strongly disagree. I relate way, way more with more straight people I've known than with any gay person I've known IRL. Not because they're straight or gay, but because there's more to "fitting in" than watching the same porn.
 
CornBurrito said:
I'm a bit confused as to why you'd hate hook-up apps if you want to seek out casual sex.

I dislike hook-up apps but that's largely because I'm a bit more conservative and am uncomfortable with searching for new dick every night, and am more a fan of committed monogamous relationships which Grindr doesn't seem particularly suited for.

But if you do want casual sex very often what's wrong with the app that makes you hate it more than a bar?
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(Just for the record, me either lol) The main reason is those apps are confidence shredders. People are either extremely thirsty or just complete cunts. They are literal meat markets, and people are willing to wait for something (possibly) better to (possibly) come along. I'm not the prettiest dude ever, but judging by some of the messages I got you'd think I was a gargoyle. I have a friend who is around 5'11" and maybe 180 pounds who was constantly getting called fat...He isn't fat at all.

Meeting people face-to-face is preferable to me because there is a lot more in play than just a face/torso and a short blurb. Lacking things like body language cues and such is too much of a handicap.
 
CyanideStrike said:
So, date numero deux tomorrow. He's coming round mine and we're just have a chilled evening. I'm cooking for him this time, we'll have a drink or two, and just talk more and see what happens. Question is, I really only know how to cook pasta dishes but we had a pasta dish at his, so what do I cook him? Chicken? Steak? Oysters?
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Make him some Spotted Dick or Toad in the Hole.

Ah subtlety, the language of love.
 
CyanideStrike said:
"Hey, er, you wanna see my spotted dick?"

"Maybe you wanna taste my toad in your hole? I mean THE hole, damn it..."

Aren't the oysters enough of a hint I want him?
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sexuallly_suggestive_food_names_03.jpg

put-it-in-your-mouth.jpeg
 
Captcha said:
What about the bars don't you like? I don't particularly like bars/clubs, but I also hate hook-up apps, so if I need some dick I roll with it. You can find more laid back places if you look! Although if you don't drink or something ignore me.



Is that like a gay cheerleader? I can NOT keep up with all these animals, and letters, and labels. Keep it simple, gays ｡゜(｀Д´)゜｡
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I'll try to look for the definition and link it when I get home.

CyanideStrike said:
So, date numero deux tomorrow. He's coming round mine and we're just have a chilled evening. I'm cooking for him this time, we'll have a drink or two, and just talk more and see what happens. Question is, I really only know how to cook pasta dishes but we had a pasta dish at his, so what do I cook him? Chicken? Steak? Oysters?
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Best of luck!

Captcha said:
(Just for the record, me either lol) The main reason is those apps are confidence shredders. People are either extremely thirsty or just complete cunts. They are literal meat markets, and people are willing to wait for something (possibly) better to (possibly) come along. I'm not the prettiest dude ever, but judging by some of the messages I got you'd think I was a gargoyle. I have a friend who is around 5'11" and maybe 180 pounds who was constantly getting called fat...He isn't fat at all.

Meeting people face-to-face is preferable to me because there is a lot more in play than just a face/torso and a short blurb. Lacking things like body language cues and such is too much of a handicap.
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You're a gargoyles? Gargoyles are awesome.


Razmos said:
Make him some Spotted Dick or Toad in the Hole.

Ah subtlety, the language of love.
Click to expand...

CyanideStrike said:
"Hey, er, you wanna see my spotted dick?"

"Maybe you wanna taste my toad in your hole? I mean THE hole, damn it..."

Aren't the oysters enough of a hint I want him?
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What about pizza?
 
I've been trying to go out more at least with my homeboys but I'm more attracted to my homeboys friends than with the females I meet.

Not sure what to make of this.
 
Razmos said:
I've never really felt like I fit in with "gay culture", especially in gay bars and such.

The problem is that I don't feel like I fit in with "straight culture" either.
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You're not alone there. I often find myself having trouble fitting in with people. To be honest I don't even feel like I fit in with the communities I'm in on Gaf.
 
Hey guys, decided to drop by since I don't want to go back into irrelevancy again over there by the shadows and stuff... and also because Mr. Hobo wants me to post more often here.

Anyways my life is the same as always, except it's almost my birthday and I'm kinda feeling depressed about it, mostly because I've come to the realization that I'm almost 29 (so close to 30) and that bums me out. Also I met this cute guy and we really like each other a lot, but of course something would come up, specifically that he isn't from around here and he's going back to this home city in July or August, so that would imply that if our current relationship should grow to something more it would mean a long-distance one, and I'm not sure that would work at all. Lame right? I know. :(

Also, just to make this post more meaningful. Anybody here knowledgeable in the video editing department? I think I can use some tips, tricks and what have you with my YouTube shenanigans. I know mostly basic stuff, and usually try to keep my videos as clean and simple as possible (Spanish language warning), but I'm sure that's affecting the traffic I get (yeah, I like to tell myself that's the problem).
 
Don't know if I should slap myself or something.

Was planning a longer post, since is stuff I wanted to vent...rant a bit, but no point. Like I can understand not wanting to hangout or even talk to me, but at least try to be grounded. If you don't want to go out with me to some place then just tell me that, instead of telling me you don't like that place...and then go with other people (along many examples and situations).


Guess I'm still the problem. He did said a few times that he didn't liked going out with me, so at least there's that.

And yet here I am, thinking about his birthday next month and what to get him.

And yep, is the same guy I've posted about previously. Wouldn't surprise me if he lurks here since he's a gamer. But he hasn't said anything. Would suck if that was the case, because he continues avoiding me.


....

*sigh*
I need friends! :p
 
fernoca said:
Don't know if I should slap myself or something.

Was planning a longer post, since is stuff I wanted to vent...rant a bit, but no point. Like I can understand not wanting to hangout or even talk to me, but at least try to be grounded. If you don't want to go out with me to some place then just tell me that, instead of telling me you don't like that place...and then go with other people (along many examples and situations).

Wouldn't surprise me if he lurks here since he's a gamer. But he hasn't said anything. Would suck if that was the case, because he continues avoiding me.

Guess I'm still the problem. He did said a few times that he didn't liked going out with me, so at least there's that.

And yet here I am, thinking about his birthday next month and what to get him.


....

*sigh*
I need friends! :p
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dude what? don't get that asshole anything. You deserve more respect, he has no right to treat you like crap for reason at all. There's better people out there.
 
Mumei said:
Did anyone else read this article? It's an extended essay on gay cultural history, and the idea that "being gay" has historically meant something different than just your sexual orientation, but "comprises a set of markers or values or practices that manifest themselves in the spaces and objects and relationships that gay men create."

As the author says, this view is currently anathema in the gay community, but even if you don't think there is anything distinctive about gayness beyond who you're attracted to, it is still a fascinating article about the history of the gay community as a cultural phenomenon and quasi-ethnic group in the twentieth century that I strongly recommend reading.
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thanks for the article mumu will read later

Grakl said:
I've always identified as gay and homosexual
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i thought you considered yourself to be straight until you met lucario?

I've read quite a few articles lately about how being gay doesn't mean you have to assimilate into a heteronormative culture.
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linx
 
suberzat said:
I've been trying to go out more at least with my homeboys but I'm more attracted to my homeboys friends than with the females I meet.

Not sure what to make of this.
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Hi. How do you identify, when you say 'more attracted' does that mean attracted to both or are you not sure or no?
 
Today on the menu of "Barrylocke enjoys his day off in the city because he doesn't want to sit around obsessing about how his crush friend and his boyfriend", I shall go out to a spot I've never been to that has 2 dollar tacos and Card Against Humanity on Tuesdays. Will tacos, beer, and crude/lewd humor with strangers help him succeed on his mission?" Find out later!

I honestly think the answer will be a yes :)

EDIT: Kinsei, if you pop in here and see this, don't hesitate to talk with us, we're here for you.
 
Barrylocke said:
My one personal vice about this is that as large as the NeoGAF community is compared to other forums, people (at least people with a similar mindset as me) likely won't realize that you are the same person. This will go double if you also change your avatar. It's the reason why once I settled on my Organic Energy Association banker dude avatar, I've decided to not change it.



See?! See?! Avatar changing is a very real concern :P

I have tried to get better about it though, especially with people in community threads such as here and Megaten Community, and with the people I played Mafia with.

Speaking of which, are you excited to begin playing, HippieHobo?
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I think the same way. I tend to look at avatars and then names, but no point in not having a name I want most.
 
So one of my friends just never texts me. He'll respond to texts, but never initiates conversation. It feels very one sided now. Worse is that I accurately predicted this would happen. Oh well. I'll hopefully make some local friends and can just not feel tempted to chat with him.
 
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