Masahiro Sakurai: The Act of Balancing Smash

Defensive playstyles are boring and wasteful!

*buffs shields, makes excellent rolls, nerfs aerial approaches, makes KOs take forever and ever*

...perfect.

I miss when Sakurai was a great game designer.

It was actually well explained in Brawl times, you know? For people that don't have reflex of a tourney player, stuff happening in Melee may as well be a TAS at times. Combine that with online multiplayer without matchmaking and you have a problem. Honestly combining Melee with official online mode is already a problem, but still.

The later games were designed with that weaker player in mind.
 
Good read, but just gives me more reason to wish the franchise could move on to someone else's hands. The 1v1 comment still shows a complete disrespect for the community that dedicates years to his game and keeps it in the public's eye.

That and he missed the entire point regarding favoritism. He simply has too much control being the final say on everything. The series needs new blood and more opinions controlling it.

Thats not accurate, many people who dont post on the internet play smash everyday, they play non competitive rules and enjoy it immensely. The shitty thing would be to change the game to appease the loud few and ignore the rest.

Loved the article, I think hes dead on about everything he mentioned.
 
I just think nerf mac lmao.. he shouldnt have super armor. Everything else im cool with. Smash 4 is a delight to play. Even if I lose against somebody i really feel its cause they are more skilled..I dont know what be happening to yall
Just stand there and shield whenever Mac is near you. Unless he put in tons of shield pressure beforehand, there's not much to fear. The worst thing he can do is grab, and he ain't getting anything off that. All that super armour is what keeps his head above water, honestly. I mean, he's totally free off-stage.
 
Sakurai is talking about only throwing out moves that are safe in neutral, not rolling, dodging or shielding. Stuff like Sheik's needles.

Which is inevitable. He's saying players aren't taking risks with smash attacks, which of course wouldn't happen, unless you're Ganon or Meta Knight and you have a smash attack without any lag.
 
Thats not accurate, many people who dont post on the internet play smash everyday, they play non competitive rules and enjoy it immensely. The shitty thing would be to change the game to appease the loud few and ignore the rest.

Loved the article, I think hes dead on about everything he mentioned.
Focusing on making SSB a good competitive game is not ignoring casual players - the truth is they'll be there as long as you can smack Mario with Pikachu. SSB4 has the correct approach - they're finally acknowledging the competitive side of Smash, and unsurprisingly, the game is still a hit among casuals.
 
It was actually well explained in Brawl times, you know? For people that don't have reflex of a tourney player, stuff happening in Melee may as well be a TAS at times. Combine that with online multiplayer without matchmaking and you have a problem. Honestly combining Melee with official online mode is already a problem, but still.

The later games were designed with that weaker player in mind.
What's frustrating to me about this is that designing a low skill floor doesn't have to mean having a lowered skill ceiling. Melee did this - I have never once met a casual player who thought Melee was too fast before later Smash games came out, because it had a solid balance throughout its design. Hell, some characters were made faster and would be harder for a person with slower reflexes to use - but they were balanced by characters like Kirby who anyone could pick up and have fun with no problem. Brawl neutered the higher-skill level play.

I do imagine the slowing down of the game might have had something to do with the online play, though, especially considering how bad Brawl's was and how it had odd frame buffers and the like in it for seemingly the same reason. It would be a really shitty reason to make the gameplay worse, though.
 
Man, he's still standing by his decision to make this series "for everyone". I think SSB4 is a way better game than Brawl, but it's interesting to see him stick to his guns on this one point. Honestly, I think there should room to enhance both play-styles but Sakurai really doesn't seem to want to give an inch.

It's a little disheartening to see the Director of the series continually downplay the competitive side of his games. Yeah people can still play it however they want, and he's aware of it, but it's a constant message of "that's not that game I'm making".
 
Didn't take long for some people to twist his words to suit their agenda ("Sakurai hates Melee players") or bring up totally unrelated points ("herp derp where's K.Rool?"). SMH

That being said, getting some balancing input from the competitive community would likely to be a net benefit to the game (as it is to most fighting games)
 
Sakurai is talking about only throwing out moves that are safe in neutral, not rolling, dodging or shielding. Stuff like Sheik's needles.

Which is inevitable. He's saying players aren't taking risks with smash attacks, which of course wouldn't happen.

I'd honestly like to see much more chase off stage. I enjoy doing that a lot in my matches and it's so satisfying. Once I pushed a Ness out of the way of his PK Thunder by using my own up-b with Greninja. I also love chasing with Yoshi, Mario and Pikachu.
 
It's like I want a cake with delicious flavor and great decoration, but I'm being told to order a steak if I want something delicious. Well sure, but that's not what I want... :(
This analogy speaks to me. It's just us cake-wanters against the world, apparently.
 
I'd honestly like to see much more chase off stage. I enjoy doing that a lot in my matches and it's so satisfying. Once I pushed a Ness out of the way of his PK Thunder by using my own up-b with Greninja. I also love chasing with Yoshi, Mario and Pikachu.
Yeah gimps don't happen here, but that's because the majority of the most used characters can't really chase off stage and go deep for the edgeguard (Fox, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Sonic, Captain Falcon, etc)

The characters that excel at edgeuarding (Pikachu, Villager, Meta Knight, Wario) are pretty underdeveloped and underused at this point. Just need some more reps. Watch ESAM's Pika. His matches go by FAST.
 
Thats not accurate, many people who dont post on the internet play smash everyday, they play non competitive rules and enjoy it immensely. The shitty thing would be to change the game to appease the loud few and ignore the rest.

Loved the article, I think hes dead on about everything he mentioned.

Just like with Melee, a game that appeals to the competitive crowd doesn't alienate the casuals. Having a better balanced, faster Smash that takes its most hardcore audience into consideration (and doesn't let a single man's opinions be the deciding factor) doesn't stop the game from being fun on a casual level.

Also yeah, it is accurate. The people playing who don't post about it are not the ones keeping the game in the spotlight. The tournament community is the community that dedicates more time and generates more exposure and extends the life of your game. They keep it relevant for years and constantly remind people that the game exists. The exposure of Twitch, active tournaments, and large events like EVO are what keeps the game active and alive for years. It's simply silly to not embrace those people when doing so wouldn't effect the casual players.
 
Thats not accurate, many people who dont post on the internet play smash everyday, they play non competitive rules and enjoy it immensely. The shitty thing would be to change the game to appease the loud few and ignore the rest.

Loved the article, I think hes dead on about everything he mentioned.

The craziest thing is that when Brawl came out, I played with my noncompetitive friends from school and they all preferred melee still!

Believe it or not, casual doesn't mean you're a fan of items being on, drawn out floaty matches and stage hazards. Anecdotal evidence, but my experience introducing nongamers to the series has had the same sort of reactions.
 
What's frustrating to me about this is that designing a low skill floor doesn't have to mean having a lowered skill ceiling. Melee did this - I have never once met a casual player who thought Melee was too fast before later Smash games came out, because it had a solid balance throughout its design. Hell, some characters were made faster and would be harder for a person with slower reflexes to use - but they were balanced by characters like Kirby who anyone could pick up and have fun with no problem. Brawl neutered the higher-skill level play.

I do imagine the slowing down of the game might have had something to do with the online play, though, especially considering how bad Brawl's was and how it had odd frame buffers and the like in it for seemingly the same reason. It would be a really shitty reason to make the gameplay worse, though.

The argument "My friend..." its invalid, your friends, his friends do not represent the majority.

Mang0 vs The People:
A pro vs Good players some enjoy what they're doing, some others... you can see their frustration on their faces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym0-J_wYSE8
 
If anything, I think Sakurai is accepting competitive Smash as a valid way to enjoy the game. It may not be how he envisions the game to be played, but he never says "that's the wrong way to play my game." The overall message I took away was more along the lines of, "That's not how I would do it, but it's perfectly acceptable to play the game in different ways."
 
Yeah gimps don't happen here, but that's because the majority of the most used characters can't really chase off stage and go deep for the edgeguard (Fox, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Sonic, Captain Falcon, etc)

The characters that excel at edgeuarding (Pikachu, Villager, Meta Knight, Wario) are pretty underdeveloped and underused at this point. Just need some more reps. Watch ESAM's Pika. His matches go by FAST.

I've actually used some of ESAM's videos to learn how to chase better off stage, like how I've seen thunder used off stage. I love his Pikachu.
 
The argument "My friend..." its invalid, your friends, his friends do not represent the majority.

Mang0 vs The People:
A pro vs Good players some enjoy what they're doing, some others... you can see their frustration on their faces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym0-J_wYSE8
Sorry, let me clarify: I'm not talking about a casual player vs. a pro player. In any decently-made competitive anything, this sort of match should be easy for the pro player, and it being frustrating or difficult to follow for the casual is natural and to be expected.

What I'm referring to is casual vs. casual not needing to take away from pro vs. pro, or vice-versa. Melee is a wonderful example of a game that can be enjoyed on many skill levels, whether that is random stages/characters and all items on normal or with tournaments, wavedashing, no items, and the like. And the wonderful thing about this is that the moment a player wishes to go deeper they can, there's a huge metagame they can look into and learn about and enjoy their game on different levels and just have fun with it.

The more the game balance is skewed completely towards casual play and the more that the skill ceiling is chopped at, the worse things are for all players, pro and casual.

Honestly a lot of this is moot because Smash 4 has been taking efforts to improving the skill ceiling, it just often happens to be hurt by really bad design decisions such as everything that has to do with Custom Moves or the over-emphasis on defense and survivability.
 
I haven't seen any top player complain about shields or rolls or dodges or whatever. The meta is still so young.

Customs are bonkers though.
 
Everything about Custom Moves that isn't A) how hard they are to acquire, B) how relatively inconvenient they are to hot swap and C) how they aren't available for Mewtwo (and maybe other DLC characters?) are awesome. Fix those three issues and they are perfect.
 
Just stand there and shield whenever Mac is near you. Unless he put in tons of shield pressure beforehand, there's not much to fear. The worst thing he can do is grab, and he ain't getting anything off that. All that super armour is what keeps his head above water, honestly. I mean, he's totally free off-stage.
Yes but when hes off stage they start air dodging and counter I need to abuse that fool. And he smash too damn quick..
 
Yes but when hes off stage they start air dodging and counter I need to abuse that fool. And he smash too damn quick..
Bait the air dodges/counters and punish him for it!

Yeah, that one is BS. I wonder if its possible to nerf it, like short the stun time?
Probably change the angle of the launch after the stun. There's more than that though. Heavy Skull Bash in its own is pretty redonkulous lol.
 
Sakurai, if the kill ceiling wasn't so high people wouldn't hang on to smashes so much. They get stale if you spam them and they usually knock people too far to combo out of them. Why wouldn't players opt to chip away with tilts and shit if there isn't a potential for a kill earlier than 120%? I'm glad he is keeping up with the tourney scene though (The japanese one at least).
 
Yes but when hes off stage they start air dodging and counter I need to abuse that fool. And he smash too damn quick..
Well, my advice is just to... wait. It's really natural to just dive in for the kill ASAP, but always assume your enemy is gonna airdodge on the first frame he can - at least at a certain skill level. Just wait for them to do that, and then attack. Countering is even better, because a lot of novice Macs love doing that (since the distance it carries them is so far), but missing it forces them to lose tons of air. Bait it by jumping towards them, and then just wait until either the air-dodge is through or the Counter's no longer active and go in (if necessary, Mac's good at killing himself off stage).

Couldn't he have DI'd in a different direction out of one of those and not been hit again?
It's a confirmed infinite. After sixty-ish percent (IIRC), it's inescapable no matter your DI. All that matters at that point is the Pikachu player's execution.
 
Bait the air dodges/counters and punish him for it!


Probably change the angle of the launch after the stun. There's more than that though. Heavy Skull Bash in its own is pretty redonkulous lol.
Ill try, my friend is really good with that fool though and I think the super armor make him win. I can literally pick anyone when hes not mac and win. When hes mac its like im fighting for my life.

Sakurai, if the kill ceiling wasn't so high people wouldn't hang on to smashes so much. They get stale if you spam them and they usually knock people too far to combo out of them. Why wouldn't players opt to chip away with tilts and shit if there isn't a potential for a kill earlier than 120%? I'm glad he is keeping up with the tourney scene though (The japanese one at least).
120% I swear this game is much better than brawl i knock people out at 90 somethin % all the time

Well, my advice is just to... wait. It's really natural to just dive in for the kill ASAP, but always assume your enemy is gonna airdodge on the first frame he can - at least at a certain skill level. Just wait for them to do that, and then attack. Countering is even better, because a lot of novice Macs love doing that (since the distance it carries them is so far), but missing it forces them to lose tons of air. Bait it by jumping towards them, and then just wait until either the air-dodge is through or the Counter's no longer active and go in (if necessary, Mac's good at killing himself off stage).


It's a confirmed infinite. After sixty-ish percent (IIRC), it's inescapable no matter your DI. All that matters at that point is the Pikachu player's execution.
Ill see his mac is annoying as hell
 
This is why Sakurai needs to stay away from Smash. Let someone who is more in touch make the game. This goes for a lot of Nintendo games.

I completely agree. Thought I was the only one that thought this, quite frankly.

I cannot wait for the day a Smash game is made without Sakurai and it becomes the content filled Nintendo-celebratory smorgasboard the game should be. I've grown tired of Sakurai's seemingly constant laments. Competitive games are hard to balance, I get it, but don't make it seem like Smash Bros is the hardest game in the whole freaking world to develop.

/endrant
 
Sakurai actively dismantling the compeetitive fighting game community as well as any hope of another melee type fanbase.

Which is really sad - but its probably immensely difficult to make a game both a party type and competitive type.
 
His view is pretty interesting even though I think it's wrong.
Melee is an amazing game which accomodates beginner's, intermediate, and advanced players. Maybe he doesn't like to see the massacre that happens when an advanced player is up against a beginner but that is normal in every game.
I really liked how he noticed that in smash 4, matches were long and dragged out. Maybe that would influence him to up the pace in future titles.
I'm also slightly confused he said "When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste". What variety of ways are there to play when you want to win, especially in a tournament? The ways to play the game is limited by its own design.
I would like to see how his playtesters played the game.
 
This is why Sakurai needs to stay away from Smash. Let someone who is more in touch make the game. This goes for a lot of Nintendo games.

"More in touch," lol.

You have Melee and Project M for those of you that are more in touch and obviously the primary target for each new Smash.
 
I completely agree. Thought I was the only one that thought this, quite frankly.

I cannot wait for the day a Smash game is made without Sakurai and it becomes the content filled Nintendo-celebratory smorgasboard the game should be. I've grown tired of Sakurai's seemingly constant laments. Competitive games are hard to balance, I get it, but don't make it seem like Smash Bros is the hardest game in the whole freaking world to develop.

/endrant

Err I don't know about the absolute hardest but given how content rich the games are, many people he has to coordinate and juggle to get them made and how many different audiences he has to please.......yeah these games are hard as fuck to make. Why don't you tell him more how hard his job is or isn't while you sit back in your armchair and offer your critique as the clearly well-experienced game designer you must be. (Note: This doesn't mean Sakurai hasn't made mistakes or that he is above reproach but boy do you sound like a classic, know it all armchair __________)
 
One day, Sakurai will be gone. Whoever replaces him will likely not be as skilled or dedicated at game development as he, as he is a legend. Then the complainers will say "Replace this guy too!" The grass is greener, gentlemen. If we listed the top 100 game developers in the world, how many could you even out above Sakurai? How many people could really develop the next Smash and outdo him?

Remember PlayStation All-Stars.

Yeah, that one is BS. I wonder if its possible to nerf it, like short the stun time?
Sure, but lots of customs are this bad.

Couldn't he have DI'd in a different direction out of one of those and not been hit again?
Nope.

This is why Sakurai needs to stay away from Smash. Let someone who is more in touch make the game. This goes for a lot of Nintendo games.
In touch with whom? Sakurai seems very in touch with his fan base, given the sales numbers.

Sakurai actively dismantling the compeetitive fighting game community as well as any hope of another melee type fanbase.

Which is really sad - but its probably immensely difficult to make a game both a party type and competitive type.
He is dismantling it? It looks like Evo is giving record numbers for Smash Melee. Sakurai is doing a terrible job of this, I would say.
 
Sakurai actively dismantling the compeetitive fighting game community as well as any hope of another melee type fanbase.

Which is really sad - but its probably immensely difficult to make a game both a party type and competitive type.
He is so actively dismantling the competitive community that when competitive players complained about vectoring allowing players to live to 140% and matches to drag, he patched it out and the game now uses traditional DI.
 
I completely agree. Thought I was the only one that thought this, quite frankly.

I cannot wait for the day a Smash game is made without Sakurai and it becomes the content filled Nintendo-celebratory smorgasboard the game should be. I've grown tired of Sakurai's seemingly constant laments. Competitive games are hard to balance, I get it, but don't make it seem like Smash Bros is the hardest game in the whole freaking world to develop.

/endrant

You think you're the only person out there to think Sakurai shouldn't make Smash games? Have you meant some Melee fans?

Yeah, making Smash games isn't that hard bro. That must be we all those Smash clones nail the formula so easily!
 
He is so actively dismantling the competitive community that when competitive players complained about vectoring allowing players to live to 140% and matches to drag, he patched it out and the game now uses traditional DI.
Hey now. You make it sound like he has already released three balance patches based on competitive feedback or something.
 
Hey now. You make it sound like he has already released three balance patches based on competitive feedback or something.
There's no way he would do that. After all, he's pushed to erase that Brawl hack of questionable legality Project M out of existence and shut down tournaments where it's played since it directly competes with his product. Oh wait

I know that's more Nintendo's call, but whatever
 
There's no way he would do that. After all, he's pushed to erase that Brawl hack of questionable legality Project M out of existence and shut down tournaments where it's played since it directly competes with his product. Oh wait

I know that's more Nintendo's call, but whatever

I'm almost sure that the reason ProjectM is still alive its because Sakurai (Becasue, is he was mad at it, it would be gone long time ago). Nintendo does not fuck around with Amateur projects and C&D real quick. Just look at the Mario project someone was making.

Indeed, Ito taking Mid tiers to top levels.
 
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