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[Razgriz-Specter]

Have they shown any other uniforms besides BDU, Sneaking and Battlesuit?
Wondering if stuff like the XOF grunt uniform will eventually be an option even if just for characters other than Big Boss.

 

[Nightengale]

In other words, I'm still not seeing a basis for this theory at all and am willing to just chalk it up to the fanbase being the fanbase.

I'm not involved in that discussion.

All I'm saying is that in MGS2, that scene exist (Raiden acknowledging having done the VR mission of Tanker specifically), and it's further reinforced (that Raiden actually did the VR mission of Tanker) by Snake's acknowledgement that it's probably very different from the real events.

 

[Screaming Meat]

In other words, I'm still not seeing a basis for this theory at all and am willing to just chalk it up to the fanbase being the fanbase.

Aren't you part of the fanbase...?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

And...is there any reason at all to doubt Snake? At the very beginning of the Big Shell chapter, you get this exchange in the opening cutscene where the Colonel asks Raiden if he's familiar with the tanker incident two years ago.

Raiden responds "of course," and the Colonel briefly goes over the story about terrorists sinking an oil tanker full of crude, leading to the Big Shell cleanup project, to which Raiden raises no objections.

If Raiden did do a VR simulation of the tanker incident, then it's probably fair to say it was a fake version of events based on the cover story, and not at all what happened in the Tanker chapter we play in the game.

In other words, I'm still not seeing a basis for this theory at all and am willing to just chalk it up to the fanbase being the fanbase.

Well thats your issue. I view MGS2 as how I feel it should be originally intended without MGS4's retcons and explanations, and in that sense you're dealing with an unreliable narrator who literally says, "You can't tell the difference between VR and reality" right after he fights a vampire who spins around in circles and who will shortly be shot in the head multiple times and walk it off.

Then shortly after that when Snake talks about the Tanker he also just says, "Yea, but I'm not sure it actually simulates the events that accurately." When you step back and think about it, Snake is right. There is a glaring omission of a huge chunk of the Tanker if you consider the fact he had to escape and save Olga somehow and the fact we see Snake doing a bunch of killing too constantly. Not to mention Snake is using a gun you can't even get in the Tanker in the flashbacks. If they wanted to show a flashback they could have easily showed stock gameplay with gear you actually had, they didn't for a reason.

 

[dmshaposv]

I've played Ground Zeroes for a fair bit and never even thought about putting enemies on helicopters .

what? I never thought of this either. What happens?

 

[matrix-cat]

what? I never thought of this either. What happens?

You just load'em on board, same as any other character. If you're dedicated enough you can extract every last guard on the base and run around all on your own

We're hoping that any enemies you extract in Ground Zeroes might find their way into Phantom Pain's Mother Base through the save transfer, but at this point I'm not really counting on it. It's just a fun way to pass the time, really; shuttling Jeep-loads of unconscious dudes to the chopper you've landed right on the base's helipad because there's nobody around to stop you.

 

[Komputerwelt]

what? I never thought of this either. What happens?

Some enemies/prisoners you extract carry across into The Phatom Pain & are present in your Mother Base.

^*oops! same info above*^

 

[Xiraiya]

My logic was that it should work like Peace Walker and all those guards should appear in your Motherbase Roster in The Phantom Pain when you start, which would give you a decent headstart with a bunch of soldiers with mostly average stats ready to be assigned to areas in MB.

No mention has been made of regular guards, BUT it seems to be that all unique guards will transfer over, like The Eye and The Finger from the mission where you're suppose to kill them, you can extract them instead and clear the mission that way (They probably have one or two really high stats), along with the mission where you have to contact the agent (And the "bald guard" also in that mission) along with any Prisoners from all the missions.

When you extract Unique guards or POWs it has Yellow text saying "Extracted Prisoner" or "Extracted Agent" etc. But if you extract regular guards a little notifaction pops up in white text saying "Extracted Guard". The info so far seems to indicate that anyone with a yellow/unique name when extracted will carry over to TPP or actually serve some purpose when uploading that save to TPP.

So I decided to be thorough and went and collected every single guard I could from every mission just in case.

And of course Kojima will probably be in your Mothebase if you got him in Ground Zeroes, he was a hidden soldier in Peace Walker too.

 

[trillbo]

Spoiler

Doesn't your Motherbase get blown up at the end of Ground Zeroes though? Not sure if all the people you rescue would have survived...

 

[Xiraiya]

Spoiler

Doesn't your Motherbase get blown up at the end of Ground Zeroes though? Not sure if all the people you rescue would have survived...

Yeah, that's the thing, but it's more of a reward for playing through GZ and completing everything rather than something that is truly justifiable. But I guess that would be the justification of all those regular soldiers not carrying over, but you getting to keep special people.

Spoiler

Also apparently you'll find former MSF Soldiers who survived but became crazed in the time you were gone

 

[SomTervo]

It's kinda implied that the Tanker section you played wasn't the actual tanker section, and it was Raiden in VR playing the Tanker section. Hence why we see Snake basically die, but in the flashbacks he's seen using the cut escape sequence and running around with the ship sinking.

This actually just blew my mind. I haven't played MGS2 in over 2 years and this is so obvious but it never occurred to me.

 

[Nightengale]

Spoiler

Doesn't your Motherbase get blown up at the end of Ground Zeroes though? Not sure if all the people you rescue would have survived...

Gameplay/reward concessions, probably. It wouldn't be a 'reward' if TPP throws in some sort of random element of possibly killing the folks you extracted in GZ.

 

[KJRS_1993]

Aren't you part of the fanbase...?

You get the Metal Gear fanbase, and then you get the Metal Gear fanbase.
There's a huge difference between the two. If you don't know it, you're in Group 2.

 

[Xiraiya]

Either way, for those curious about trying. Any "regular" guard in GZ wouldn't have particularly interesting or good stats, you'd most likely end up firing them to make room for better people eventually in TPP, as long as you get all the "unique" characters, you'll be fine.

I just think that the fact the game lets you extract the guards and even has the notification and also Miller responding to you doing that, to me feels like it may not be pointless and could do something beneficial for you, especially when not many people have apparently really thought about doing it.

I thought it would be hilarious if I extracted PS1 guards in Deja Vu and they carried over to Motherbase in TPP, but extracting them gave me no notification or anything, which I thought was interesting as I expected it to treat them like any other guard, so I figured the game truly didn't count them.

...Maybe I'll try and see if I can extract a Snatcher.

 

[Henkka]

It's kinda implied that the Tanker section you played wasn't the actual tanker section, and it was Raiden in VR playing the Tanker section. Hence why we see Snake basically die, but in the flashbacks he's seen using the cut escape sequence and running around with the ship sinking.

I don't see how this makes sense. If the tanker section was VR training, why did it show Ray? Or Ocelot? Or anything about the Patriots? The story that went out into the public was that it was an oil tanker. So the VR training mission falsely shows Snake drowning because that's the narrative the Patriots wanted to spin, but it also shows that he was basically the hero in that scenario?

 

[Xiraiya]

I don't see how this makes sense. If the tanker section was VR training, why did it show Ray? Or Ocelot? Or anything about the Patriots? The story that went out into the public was that it was an oil tanker. So the VR training mission falsely shows Snake drowning because that's the narrative the Patriots wanted to spin, but it also shows that he was basically the hero in that scenario?

Not to mention Liquid taking over Ocelot with the arm and everything when Snake ran upto him in Tanker, why would that be in Raiden's VR?.

Spoiler

MGS4 showing Ocelot with a new cyborg arm and no more Cam Clarke voice should have clued in people he may not really have been Liquid anymore, but it most definitely was Liquid during MGS2.

 

[AusRoachman]

Extracting guards is such a simple thing i honestly just thought "the game wouldn't let you do that" and never even tried. Mind Blown.

I am curious what the voucher i got with my copy of the game will unlock, its basically a dlc code and just says unlocks items games in the main game but doesn't mention what.

My only problem is i brought it on xbox and now plan on buying the ps4 version of phantom pain .

 

[Xiraiya]

Extracting guards is such a simple thing i honestly just thought "the game wouldn't let you do that" and never even tried. Mind Blown.

I blame Peace Walker for implanting this Pokemon-like need to collect everything in my mind, I probably wouldn't have thought about it either otherwise.

 

[THEaaron]

I don't see how this makes sense. If the tanker section was VR training, why did it show Ray? Or Ocelot? Or anything about the Patriots? The story that went out into the public was that it was an oil tanker. So the VR training mission falsely shows Snake drowning because that's the narrative the Patriots wanted to spin, but it also shows that he was basically the hero in that scenario?

If you die in the tanker section you'll get a "Game Over" screen like in MGS1 where you really played as Solid Snake. When you die in VR in MGS1 you'll get "Mission Failed". If you die as Raiden in MGS2 you'll get "Mission Failed" with simulation data.

 

[Screaming Meat]

You get the Metal Gear fanbase, and then you get the Metal Gear fanbase.
There's a huge difference between the two. If you don't know it, you're in Group 2.

XD

Well, I'm not what you'd call very self-aware, so I'd be interested in you enlightening me on the headline differences.

 

[Henkka]

If you die in the tanker section you'll get a "Game Over" screen like in MGS1 where you really played as Solid Snake. When you die in VR in MGS1 you'll get "Mission Failed". If you die as Raiden in MGS2 you'll get "Mission Failed" with simulation data.

IMO, it's just Kojima screwing with us. Taking MGS4 into account, MGS2 obviously didn't happen in VR canonically. But asking stuff like "What actually happened in MGS2?" is missing the point, which is what Snake(As Kojima's mouthpiece) says at the end of the game. What actually happened is that you stared at a screen for 10 or so hours and played a videogame. You had an experience, and what you take from it into your real life is what matters, not the specifics of the overly convoluted plot.

 

[THEaaron]

IMO, it's just Kojima screwing with us. Taking MGS4 into account, MGS2 obviously didn't happen in VR canonically. But asking stuff like "What actually happened in MGS2?" is missing the point, which is what Snake(As Kojima's mouthpiece) says at the end of the game. What actually happened is that you stared at a screen for 10 or so hours and played a videogame. You had an experience, and what you take from it into your real life is what matters, not the specifics of the overly convoluted plot.

Well, the player itself was the test subject in MGS2 and it was clearly set up for the player but I didn't want to say that the MGS2 Raiden mission was VR. I just wanted to say, that there is a high possibility that the tanker mission was the real thing and not the simulation for Raiden. It would fit within the game over/mission failed screen thing.

 

[pupcoffee]

Well, the player itself was the test subject in MGS2 and it was clearly set up for the player but I didn't want to say that the MGS2 Raiden mission was VR. I just wanted to say, that there is a high possibility that the tanker mission was the real thing and not the simulation for Raiden. It would fit within the game over/mission failed screen thing.

If you play the Big Shell chapter without doing the Tanker chapter, Raiden magically doesn't say the line that goes something like this, "I (Raiden) have done the Tanker mission in VR." (Spoken to Colonel.... or was it to Snake?)

 

[THEaaron]

If you play the Big Shell chapter without doing the Tanker chapter, Raiden magically doesn't say the line that goes something like this, "I (Raiden) have done the Tanker mission in VR." (Spoken to Colonel.... or was it to Snake?)

The narrative and the character Raiden is bound to the player experiencing a simulation in MGS2. Raiden is you until he breaks the boundaries and throws his dogtags away with the name you put on when you started the mission. This could very well mean that Raiden speaks for the player when he is speaking to Colonel.

The thing is: everything is so speculative...

Edit: I dont think the main mission was VR, but I am somehow sure that the tanker mission was real, since it clearly shows what snake wanted to do there and that he wasn't the cause of the drowning of the tanker.

 

[SomTervo]

I blame Peace Walker for implanting this Pokemon-like need to collect everything in my mind, I probably wouldn't have thought about it either otherwise.

In Peace Walker, whenever I got tired of extracting guards or managing MB, I just played the game. I just enjoyed the solid stealth gameplay.

Then whenever I got tired of the stealth gameplay and action, I started extracting guards and managing MB again.

You don't need to do all of it. If you wanted to, you could mainly ignore the management stuff. I reckon it'll be even easier to ignore it in MGSV – KojiPro clearly want to give the players that option.

Edit: I dont think the main mission was VR, but I am somehow sure that the tanker mission was real, since it clearly shows what snake wanted to do there and that he wasn't the cause of the drowning of the tanker.

I agree with you – but how does one explain the flashbacks scenes in the Plant mission where we see Snake doing things we never did in the tanker? Ie shooting his way into the Ray chamber, escaping through flooded corridors.

 

[Betty]

In Peace Walker, whenever I got tired of extracting guards or managing MB, I just played the game. I just enjoyed the solid stealth gameplay.

Then whenever I got tired of the stealth gameplay and action, I started extracting guards and managing MB again.

You don't need to do all of it. If you wanted to, you could mainly ignore the management stuff. I reckon it'll be even easier to ignore it in MGSV – KojiPro clearly want to give the players that option.

And unlike Peace Walker, Kojima says you don't even need to return to Mother Base after missions, you can continue straight to your next mission, you can also manage your base out in the field.

You can also delegate a lot of the management decisions to Kaz if you'd prefer to focus on the missions.

 

[THEaaron]

I agree with you – but how does one explain the flashbacks scenes in the Plant mission where we see Snake doing things we never did in the tanker? Ie shooting his way into the Ray chamber, escaping through flooded corridors.

That's right. For the flooded corridor scene I remember an interview with Kojima where he said that this scene was removed because it felt irrelevant to run away from the flood that would catch up to you no matter what you do. But we are talking about Kojima here..

 

[Screaming Meat]

I agree with you – but how does one explain the flashbacks scenes in the Plant mission where we see Snake doing things we never did in the tanker? Ie shooting his way into the Ray chamber, escaping through flooded corridors.

Who's point of view are the flashbacks from, Raiden's VR simulation or Snake's actual experiences?

 

[raven777]

"editing for the first time in few month"

a new trailer?

https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/633265340495978496

 

[swearing-circle]

Definitely would appear that way.

 

[aember]

Launch trailer by the one true god?

 

[realcZk]

Definitely would appear that way.

Launch trailer by the one true god?

Oh yes..... yes please! Was not expecting this.

 

[Graphics Horse]

But truefans told me he spends at least 3 months editing a trailer.

 

[SomTervo]

And unlike Peace Walker, Kojima says you don't even need to return to Mother Base after missions, you can continue straight to your next mission, you can also manage your base out in the field.

You can also delegate a lot of the management decisions to Kaz if you'd prefer to focus on the missions.

Damn straight.

I think the level of freedom and choice is going to be insane, and players won't have to do what they don't want to, generally.

That's right. For the flooded corridor scene I remember an interview with Kojima where he said that this scene was removed because it felt irrelevant to run away from the flood that would catch up to you no matter what you do. But we are talking about Kojima here..

Haha, that sounds legit. That sounds like he was telling the truth. I believe he was, anyway. I think? I mean, you can't really be sure. Maybe the interview was part of the Arsenal Gear simulation? Maybe watching the video IRL was part of the simulation. Maybe everything we're currently experiencing only exists to set up a simulation of the Shadow Moses incident in MGS2

Who's point of view are the flashbacks from, Raiden's VR simulation or Snake's actual experiences?

Good point.

 

[Revven]

"editing for the first time in few month"

a new trailer?

https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/633265340495978496

Launch trailer by Kojima is God? Oh my.

 

[Spaghetti]

Have they shown any other uniforms besides BDU, Sneaking and Battlesuit?
Wondering if stuff like the XOF grunt uniform will eventually be an option even if just for characters other than Big Boss.

crossing my fingers a few 'easter egg' costumes make it in there.

i'd love to see something like the other sneaking suits from previous games.

Spoiler

we'll probably have to make do with the peace walker/GZ sneaking suit, which to be fair is near enough the GOAT

 

[Elysium-777]

Launch trailer by Kojima is God? Oh my.

I hope so. The last trailer was pretty good, but it was missing that Kojima touch.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Man been relistening to 4's soundtrack at work the last few days.
Dang I forgot how much I loved it, even basic stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9csOHcADWQ

 

[RK9039]

"editing for the first time in few month"

a new trailer?

https://twitter.com/Kojima_Hideo/status/633265340495978496

 

[paragonpro]

So just to clarify, I'll only have to deal with invasions if I build forward operating bases? I'd rather just avoid this aspect all Togeather.

 

[BobTheFork]

So just to clarify, I'll only have to deal with invasions if I build forward operating bases? I'd rather just avoid this aspect all Togeather.

From what we know, yes, you will not get online invasions without the FOB. Some people think there will be something similar with the SP mother base either story wise or just as a mechanic but I don't think we know.

 

[RK9039]

So just to clarify, I'll only have to deal with invasions if I build forward operating bases? I'd rather just avoid this aspect all Togeather.

Yes, you don't need to build FOBs at all if you don't want to deal with invasions. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

 

[Betty]

Yes, you don't need to build FOBs at all. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

You're right. FOB's are purely optional.

 

[War Peaceman]

So just to clarify, I'll only have to deal with invasions if I build forward operating bases? I'd rather just avoid this aspect all Togeather.

Yup! Mother Base can't be invaded, just the FOB. So, entirely optional and I expect, a mid-late game option due to GMP costs required for the development of a significant security system at your FOB.

The narrative and the character Raiden is bound to the player experiencing a simulation in MGS2. Raiden is you until he breaks the boundaries and throws his dogtags away with the name you put on when you started the mission. This could very well mean that Raiden speaks for the player when he is speaking to Colonel.

The thing is: everything is so speculative...

Edit: I dont think the main mission was VR, but I am somehow sure that the tanker mission was real, since it clearly shows what snake wanted to do there and that he wasn't the cause of the drowning of the tanker.

The point of MGS2 is to stimulate the kind of discussion that is occurring here IMO. It rejects the idea of a 'canon' and instead encourages you to think about the game as an experience that you, the player had. Nothing that you played during the game matters except what you take from it. This is one of many reasons that it is incredible as a game.

It is clear that Kojima felt he failed to deliver this message or that the audience wasn't receptive to it. Hence 4 emphasising every goddamn connection to the point of absurdity. I mean what happens to err the shitty soldier is evidence of that.

 

[KHlover]

You just load'em on board, same as any other character. If you're dedicated enough you can extract every last guard on the base and run around all on your own

We're hoping that any enemies you extract in Ground Zeroes might find their way into Phantom Pain's Mother Base through the save transfer, but at this point I'm not really counting on it. It's just a fun way to pass the time, really; shuttling Jeep-loads of unconscious dudes to the chopper you've landed right on the base's helipad because there's nobody around to stop you.

eh there's those two guys whose backstory is revealed if you chopper them in than one side-ops where you're actually supposed to kill them. maybe they could end up in TPP?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Who's point of view are the flashbacks from, Raiden's VR simulation or Snake's actual experiences?

Now that's a solid point, cause I've used the argument before that "Mission Failed" is VR and "Game Over" is reality, which does contradict the notion that the Tanker is VR from Raiden's PoV.

Such convolution, many confusion.

 

[Sub_Level]

It's kinda implied that the Tanker section you played wasn't the actual tanker section, and it was Raiden in VR playing the Tanker section. Hence why we see Snake basically die, but in the flashbacks he's seen using the cut escape sequence and running around with the ship sinking.

The Tanker section we play as was the real one. Remember Raiden didn't even know who Olga was, yet you fight Olga as Snake. Not to mention Raiden didn't know if Snake was a terrorist or not when Ocelot clearly blows everything up.

If Raiden did do a VR simulation of the tanker incident, then it's probably fair to say it was a fake version of events based on the cover story, and not at all what happened in the Tanker chapter we play in the game.
.

This is correct. But keep in mind they DO explicitly mention him doing vr training of the Tanker.

The point of MGS2 is to stimulate the kind of discussion that is occurring here IMO. It rejects the idea of a 'canon' and instead encourages you to think about the game as an experience that you, the player had. Nothing that you played during the game matters except what you take from it. This is one of many reasons that it is incredible as a game.

It is clear that Kojima felt he failed to deliver this message or that the audience wasn't receptive to it. Hence 4 emphasising every goddamn connection to the point of absurdity. I mean what happens to err the shitty soldier is evidence of that.

While I would never want to shit on anyone's interpretation parade (the script of MGS2 on the Document even has a line near the end of letting players reach their own conclusions), I personally feel most of the plot is concrete and actually not open to much interpretation at all.

 

[paragonpro]

Man been relistening to 4's soundtrack at work the last few days.
Dang I forgot how much I loved it, even basic stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9csOHcADWQ

So good, I've come close to buying another PS3 recently just to play this game again, here's hoping that there is some sort of collection with this in it for the Xbox one.

 

[THEaaron]

The point of MGS2 is to stimulate the kind of discussion that is occurring here IMO. It rejects the idea of a 'canon' and instead encourages you to think about the game as an experience that you, the player had. Nothing that you played during the game matters except what you take from it. This is one of many reasons that it is incredible as a game.

It is clear that Kojima felt he failed to deliver this message or that the audience wasn't receptive to it. Hence 4 emphasising every goddamn connection to the point of absurdity. I mean what happens to err the shitty soldier is evidence of that.

Yeah it is a very very postmodern approach. But you can still wrap the narrative around it. The Patriots were still in trial and error to create the super soldier and while they are doing that you leave the canon and the game tries to create a Snake out of Raiden for you, the player. I was too young when I played that game but now that I am digging deeper I somehow get the grasp of what Kojima was pulling of there.

What I can't remember now: are there actually references from MGS2 in MGS4?

How Kojima is building up Big Boss in TPP and how Solid Snakes story ended in MGS4 is really putting Big Boss on tp as my favourite Snake in the series. I just can't wait any longer.

 

[ffejeromdiks]

So good, I've come close to buying another PS3 recently just to play this game again, here's hoping that there is some sort of collection with this in it for the Xbox one.

Agreed, my PS3 bricked years ago and I never replaced it. I've been iching to replay it in some capacity ever since. A while back you could rent it on PS4's PSnow streaming service, but they removed it from the library when I was only 1 act into the game, talk about some serious blue balls. At least it was only 3.99....>_<